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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 04 2017 00:30 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 00:26 LegalLord wrote:On August 04 2017 00:23 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
You just said that every president after Bush1 has left relations with Russia worse. I'm just wanting more insight into your statement. It is true in and of itself and that much is very easily demonstrated. What about it would you like more insight about? I ask because I want to make sure I'm answering the right question. I don't think relations with Russia or the USSR has been very amicable since WW1. I don't see how, after the wall was torn down, we were at a better relation with Russia. The Cold War broke them and we rose into the sole super power. Now we have China on the rise and Russia wants their glory days back. How can you blame post-1991 Presidents? Economic sanctions are given to a lot of countries. Would you say that Cuba, NK, or China (before they rose), were under better relations, despite the sanctions against them? We are working to make Cuba an ally. China is flaunting it's power and ignoring most of the world when it comes to FP, and NK is just as crazy as it's ever been.
The late years of the USSR and the early post-Soviet years saw a rare optimistic period in US-Russia relations as an attempt to mend ties ran its course. Important concessions were made that sought to lead to better long-term relations.
Slowly but surely that started to deteriorate, starting with the Yugoslavia/Kosovo matter. Clinton, Bush, and Obama all started with a proposition to make things better but each of them left the presidency with a worse relationship with Russia than they came in. It's not entirely their fault, they are just cut from the standard cloth of US FP that evidently is inept at getting good results out of unconventional/asymmetric warfare. They were not so much responsible as that they were at the head of the US FP when things went down, and they didn't fix things. It should be no surprise that Russia acted the way it did in response to the sum of the various events of the past 30 or so years. Putin may be a leader who could be described as taking a coldly cynical approach to the US - but in the context of Russia's interests and the recent past, he is absolutely right to do so.
I never once mentioned sanctions - you did. That is little more than the favored US method of expressing disapproval with another country and thinking it will lead to change.
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Lets not forget russian interference in elections. It´s certainly in Russias interest to manipulate foreign elections into russias favour but it really doesn´t help relations. In germany the questions isn´t really if russia will interfere in our elections but rather is we can protect ourselves from the inevitable attempt. Is there anyone that actually thinks Outin respects the democratic process?
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Well, it's a more valid form of Twitter diplomacy than Twitter bragging about how they are responsible for revolutions in second-world countries, I'll give them that.
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On August 04 2017 00:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Lets not forget russian interference in elections. It´s certainly in Russias interest to manipulate foreign elections into russias favour but it really doesn´t help relations. In germany the questions isn´t really if russia will interfere in our elections but rather is we can protect ourselves from the inevitable attempt. Is there anyone that actually thinks Outin respects the democratic process?
So, who is the shining example of respecting the democratic process regardless of what result it will bring? Obama? Merkel?
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On August 04 2017 00:05 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 00:02 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2017 23:52 Introvert wrote:
"Slow news week?"
"Yes."
"Release some of the first calls he made."
"K."
I'm a little cynical. I feel like we don't know enough to judge too much, I mean I thought they migh be worse.
Also how tf did these get leaked. The other leaders on the calls decided to release the transcripts? Show nested quote +The transcripts were prepared by the White House but have not been released. The Post is publishing reproductions rather than original documents in order to protect sources. Doesn't seem likely. I don't know about the Mexican president but it doesn't seem like it would be Turnbull's style, either.
Actual transcript of phone call between Turnbull and Pene Nieto:
Turnbull: Hey
Nieto: Hey
Turnbull: So how'd the call with Trump go?
Nieto: He's a fucking idiot
Turnbull: I know right, want to release the transcripts
Nieto: Haha sure
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On August 04 2017 01:03 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 00:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Lets not forget russian interference in elections. It´s certainly in Russias interest to manipulate foreign elections into russias favour but it really doesn´t help relations. In germany the questions isn´t really if russia will interfere in our elections but rather is we can protect ourselves from the inevitable attempt. Is there anyone that actually thinks Outin respects the democratic process? So, who is the shining example of respecting the democratic process regardless of what result it will bring? Obama? Merkel?
So no one can ever complaint about meddling in elections because we can always point to a nation who did it in the past? Only those completely free of sin may cast stones?
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On August 04 2017 01:03 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 00:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Lets not forget russian interference in elections. It´s certainly in Russias interest to manipulate foreign elections into russias favour but it really doesn´t help relations. In germany the questions isn´t really if russia will interfere in our elections but rather is we can protect ourselves from the inevitable attempt. Is there anyone that actually thinks Outin respects the democratic process? So, who is the shining example of respecting the democratic process regardless of what result it will bring? Obama? Merkel?
Merkel for example is currently dealing with Trump, and not calling him an utter buffoon and say "We will wait another 4 year until you elect an actual president and not a clown to have any deals with you". So I'd say that counts as "respecting the democratic process. Also, we don't interfere in other peoples elections like Putin constantly does. So your whataboutism fails here.
I know the US cold war CIA history with regards to that, too. Not every democratic country is the cold war CIA. Putin is uniquely interfering in other countries internal affairs.
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On August 04 2017 01:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 01:03 LegalLord wrote:On August 04 2017 00:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Lets not forget russian interference in elections. It´s certainly in Russias interest to manipulate foreign elections into russias favour but it really doesn´t help relations. In germany the questions isn´t really if russia will interfere in our elections but rather is we can protect ourselves from the inevitable attempt. Is there anyone that actually thinks Outin respects the democratic process? So, who is the shining example of respecting the democratic process regardless of what result it will bring? Obama? Merkel? So no one can ever complaint about meddling in elections because we can always point to a nation who did it in the past? Only those completely free of sin may cast stones?
No, but it would be rich to single one out without thinking about the others.
I will say from the outset that it's unfortunate - albeit not unjustified - that the whole "Russia hacked election" matter came out.
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An earthquake of preliminary magnitude 4.2 hit central Oklahoma on Wednesday night, the U.S. Geological Survey said, the sixth earthquake to affect the area in just over 24 hours.
Four hours later, a less intense earthquake of a preliminary magnitude 3.5 struck the area in the early hours of Thursday.
The quake late Wednesday was the largest magnitude earthquake to strike the area, near the city of Edmond, since Tuesday night. The USGS said the earthquake was "widely felt" in Edmond and northern Oklahoma City, which is located about 15 miles away. It happened a few minutes before 10 p.m. local time at a preliminary depth of 2.3 kilometers (1.43 miles).
The Edmond police department said on Twitter that no significant damage had been reported.
Residents said the "earthquake cracked floors and walls, and knocked household items off shelves and counters," reporter Joe Wertz of StateImpact Oklahoma reports for NPR.
Around 1.3 million people live in the greater affected area, Reuters reported, though the population of Edmond alone is only around 90,000.
The city said on Twitter that two power substations were affected by a power outage and "large areas of east and northeast Edmond" had lost power. Oklahoma City's News9 said more than 4,600 people lost power. Shortly after 11 p.m. local time, the city said all power had been restored.
Since Tuesday night, the USGS reported five earthquakes of magnitudes between 3.0 and 3.5, each located in the same area about 4 miles east-northeast of Edmond. Another earthquake struck earlier Wednesday with a magnitude of 2.6.
The USGS described the impact near the epicenter of earthquakes on the lower end of the range between 4.0 and 4.9:
"Felt indoors by many, outdoors by few during the day. At night, some awakened. Dishes, windows, doors disturbed; walls make cracking sound. Sensation like heavy truck striking building. Standing motor cars rocked noticeably."
Oklahoma experienced one of its biggest earthquakes in state history last year, measured at a 5.6 magnitude.
Earthquakes in Oklahoma used to be rare and are a recent phenomenon. Scientists have linked earthquakes to the disposal process of wastewater from hydraulic fracturing, or fracking.
"Seismic activity has surged in recent years," Wertz says. "Scientists link the quake boom to the widespread oil industry practice of pumping waste fluid into underground disposal wells."
But Wertz reports that the quakes have become less frequent since regulators introduced new restrictions on disposal wells.
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Maybe Russia should stop annexing land and threatening to take more for no reason besides to scare the west.
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On August 04 2017 01:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 01:03 LegalLord wrote:On August 04 2017 00:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Lets not forget russian interference in elections. It´s certainly in Russias interest to manipulate foreign elections into russias favour but it really doesn´t help relations. In germany the questions isn´t really if russia will interfere in our elections but rather is we can protect ourselves from the inevitable attempt. Is there anyone that actually thinks Outin respects the democratic process? So, who is the shining example of respecting the democratic process regardless of what result it will bring? Obama? Merkel? So no one can ever complaint about meddling in elections because we can always point to a nation who did it in the past? Only those completely free of sin may cast stones?
It shows that Legallord is a minion that supports Putins efforts to undermine the democratic process. Pay attention not to get distracted by him and you will notice that he can´t defend Putins actions but has to derail somehow to everyone elses issues.
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On August 04 2017 01:10 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 01:07 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2017 01:03 LegalLord wrote:On August 04 2017 00:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Lets not forget russian interference in elections. It´s certainly in Russias interest to manipulate foreign elections into russias favour but it really doesn´t help relations. In germany the questions isn´t really if russia will interfere in our elections but rather is we can protect ourselves from the inevitable attempt. Is there anyone that actually thinks Outin respects the democratic process? So, who is the shining example of respecting the democratic process regardless of what result it will bring? Obama? Merkel? So no one can ever complaint about meddling in elections because we can always point to a nation who did it in the past? Only those completely free of sin may cast stones? No, but it would be rich to single one out without thinking about the others. I will say from the outset that it's unfortunate - albeit not unjustified - that the whole "Russia hacked election" matter came out.
No one is talking about justice or injustice. There is no moral high ground, stop trying to take it. If Russia wants to see what they can get away with, they can pay the price when they finally touch the stove.
On August 04 2017 01:19 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 01:07 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2017 01:03 LegalLord wrote:On August 04 2017 00:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Lets not forget russian interference in elections. It´s certainly in Russias interest to manipulate foreign elections into russias favour but it really doesn´t help relations. In germany the questions isn´t really if russia will interfere in our elections but rather is we can protect ourselves from the inevitable attempt. Is there anyone that actually thinks Outin respects the democratic process? So, who is the shining example of respecting the democratic process regardless of what result it will bring? Obama? Merkel? So no one can ever complaint about meddling in elections because we can always point to a nation who did it in the past? Only those completely free of sin may cast stones? It shows that Legallord is a minion that supports Putins efforts to undermine the democratic process. Pay attention not to get distracted by him and you will notice that he can´t defend Putins actions but has to derail somehow to everyone elses issues.
He also attempts to obscure the core issue: No democracy, not even the US, can last with other nations meddling in their elections. The citizens will lose faith in the process and that is the doom of any democracy. The US has proven this before. The USSR proved it as well. If Russia wants to meddle in our elections, we have no recourse but to respond.
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On August 04 2017 01:19 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 01:07 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2017 01:03 LegalLord wrote:On August 04 2017 00:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Lets not forget russian interference in elections. It´s certainly in Russias interest to manipulate foreign elections into russias favour but it really doesn´t help relations. In germany the questions isn´t really if russia will interfere in our elections but rather is we can protect ourselves from the inevitable attempt. Is there anyone that actually thinks Outin respects the democratic process? So, who is the shining example of respecting the democratic process regardless of what result it will bring? Obama? Merkel? So no one can ever complaint about meddling in elections because we can always point to a nation who did it in the past? Only those completely free of sin may cast stones? It shows that Legallord is a minion that supports Putins efforts to undermine the democratic process. Pay attention not to get distracted by him and you will notice that he can´t defend Putins actions but has to derail somehow to everyone elses issues.
I will defend it as an unfortunate cynicism of how relations have evolved such that the best way to act in the interest of Russia is with active involvement in the elections of others. But you are rather selective in the way you look at foreign events if you think Russia is the only one or if you take the "it's only ok if it happens in countries that don't matter" approach to it all.
I know that it's tempting and easy to take a "everyone who disagrees with me is just a Putin bot" approach to that criticism. But it doesn't do you any favors to do so.
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On August 04 2017 01:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 01:10 LegalLord wrote:On August 04 2017 01:07 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2017 01:03 LegalLord wrote:On August 04 2017 00:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Lets not forget russian interference in elections. It´s certainly in Russias interest to manipulate foreign elections into russias favour but it really doesn´t help relations. In germany the questions isn´t really if russia will interfere in our elections but rather is we can protect ourselves from the inevitable attempt. Is there anyone that actually thinks Outin respects the democratic process? So, who is the shining example of respecting the democratic process regardless of what result it will bring? Obama? Merkel? So no one can ever complaint about meddling in elections because we can always point to a nation who did it in the past? Only those completely free of sin may cast stones? No, but it would be rich to single one out without thinking about the others. I will say from the outset that it's unfortunate - albeit not unjustified - that the whole "Russia hacked election" matter came out. No one is talking about justice or injustice. There is no moral high ground, stop trying to take it. If Russia wants to see what they can get away with, they can pay the price when they finally touch the stove.
If we take a fully amoral approach to it all and say "all's fair in love and war" with regards to the hacking matter, then I would say that Russia made out like bandits in this whole affair and that Putin should be commended for being so clever and punking everyone involved. But perhaps it might be interesting to see this action in the grand scheme of things as well?
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Sens. Thom Tillis (R-NC) and Chris Coons (D-DE) plan to introduce legislation meant to shield Department of Justice special counsels from political influence — with an eye toward protecting Robert Mueller, the special counsel at the head of the department’s Russian election meddling investigation and a target of the Trump administration.
The Associated Press reported Wednesday that Tillis and Coons’ legislation would allow any Justice Department special counsel to challenge his or her firing in court, and to have it reviewed by a three-judge panel. The bill would apply retroactively to May 17, 2017, AP reported — the day Mueller was assigned as a special counsel by Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.
Mueller has the support of a broad, bipartisan swath of Congress, who largely saw his appointment as an opportunity to turn the legislature’s attention back to policy priorities.
President Donald Trump, meanwhile, has reportedly raged at Mueller’s investigation. Political allies like former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, and Trump himself, have attacked Mueller for his working friendship with ousted FBI Director James Comey, and for the investigators working under him who have donated to the campaigns of Hillary Clinton and other Democrats.
In an interview with the New York Times in July, Trump agreed that Mueller would be crossing a line if he, in words of a Times reporter, “was looking at your finances and your family finances, unrelated to Russia.”
Tillis and Coons both characterized the legislation as an important safeguard against executive overreach.
“It is critical that special counsels have the independence and resources they need to lead investigations,” Tillis told AP. “A back-end judicial review process to prevent unmerited removals of special counsels not only helps to ensure their investigatory independence, but also reaffirms our nation’s system of check and balances.”
Coons added: “Ensuring that the special counsel cannot be removed improperly is critical to the integrity of his investigation.”
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I'm confused that Legal is asserting Putin's expensive military power shows that result in recession-inducing sanctions are somehow in Russia's interest as a country. They're in Putin's interest, not Russia's.
I'm not in full agreement with Plansix that FP is purely the law of the jungle either, but my flight's about to take off so I'll leave that for another time.
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On August 04 2017 01:29 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 01:25 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2017 01:10 LegalLord wrote:On August 04 2017 01:07 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2017 01:03 LegalLord wrote:On August 04 2017 00:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Lets not forget russian interference in elections. It´s certainly in Russias interest to manipulate foreign elections into russias favour but it really doesn´t help relations. In germany the questions isn´t really if russia will interfere in our elections but rather is we can protect ourselves from the inevitable attempt. Is there anyone that actually thinks Outin respects the democratic process? So, who is the shining example of respecting the democratic process regardless of what result it will bring? Obama? Merkel? So no one can ever complaint about meddling in elections because we can always point to a nation who did it in the past? Only those completely free of sin may cast stones? No, but it would be rich to single one out without thinking about the others. I will say from the outset that it's unfortunate - albeit not unjustified - that the whole "Russia hacked election" matter came out. No one is talking about justice or injustice. There is no moral high ground, stop trying to take it. If Russia wants to see what they can get away with, they can pay the price when they finally touch the stove. If we take a fully amoral approach to it all and say "all's fair in love and war" with regards to the hacking matter, then I would say that Russia made out like bandits in this whole matter and that Putin should be commended for being so clever and punking everyone involved. But perhaps it might be interesting to see this action in the grand scheme of things as well?
From a third party view, of course. Putin read the dysfunction in our political parties like a book. He saw congress vote down Obama's request to attack Syria for exactly what it was. He tested the waters with Crimea to confirm and found he was correct. He saw both parties were unwilling to back aggressive military action, either due being war wear from Iraq or a desire to hurt the President domestically. And it played out exactly like that during the election, both parties worried about losing to the other, ignoring the problems on our doorstep.
But by taking that view, the only response from the US is a unified effort to retaliate against Russia through whatever non-military channels are available.
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On August 03 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 04:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On August 03 2017 04:30 Plansix wrote:
We already know how to fight disinformation. Educate the public and limit the venues for them to spread misinformation. That part is easy. This isn’t some 1984 style truth ministry. None of this stuff is that new. We were just caught off guard. Really? Where have you been the past twenty years or so? Look at the "My ignorance counts just as much as your knowledge/experience" in this country. Creationism, Anti-Vaxxers, Flat Earthers. We we're already stupid we just needed the push to Idiocracy. https://gimletmedia.com/episode/86-man-of-the-people/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._BrinkleyThis has all happened before. Just look back to Andrew Jackson. The foolish part is that we thing we are facing something new, rather than providing people with a new venue for the same old tricks.
the way you constantly push these historical equivalences is irresponsible. is it worse to suffer from a "presentism" that ignores the past or to (unconsciously?) export present cultural context and texture INTO the past, effectively flattening it into a dilated present?
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EPT
