EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 8292
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28561 Posts
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Reivax
Sweden214 Posts
On August 03 2017 23:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: If anyone has not reached the free monthly WaPo 3-4 to see the entire article or has a digital sub can post the entire article just hide is spoiler if too long. Just view in incognitomode and you have free articles forever. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On August 03 2017 23:52 Introvert wrote: "Slow news week?" "Yes." "Release some of the first calls he made." "K." I'm a little cynical. I feel like we don't know enough to judge too much, I mean I thought they migh be worse. Also how tf did these get leaked. That's an interesting thought, whether the media just has material backed up and don't want to release multiple things at once. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 03 2017 23:51 LegalLord wrote: The way Putin responded to the events that transpired in the wake of the Ukrainian/Georgian matter is not out of line with the standard of how a Russian leader would react to the same. He may have been a tad more decisive than most in those situations (well, Medvedev was president in the Georgian crisis) but let's just say that Putin is far from alone in supporting this kind of response. That this is so seldom understood is a testament to how badly most understand Russia's motivations. I’m not really concerned with the motivations or if they feel justified in doing it. There is no moral high ground in the relationships between nations. All sides claim they have it, so no one really does. Russia is violating the sovereignty of our allies and it getting the response that should be expected for doing so. The US violates the sovereignty of other nations too and has to deal with the fall out afterwards. No amount of understanding is going to change the fact that they are trying to see how close they can come to picking a fight. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8936 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15401 Posts
On August 03 2017 23:52 Introvert wrote: "Slow news week?" "Yes." "Release some of the first calls he made." "K." I'm a little cynical. I feel like we don't know enough to judge too much, I mean I thought they migh be worse. Also how tf did these get leaked. rofl we have the transcripts of the entire calls. how in the world do we not know enough? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 03 2017 23:52 Introvert wrote: "Slow news week?" "Yes." "Release some of the first calls he made." "K." I'm a little cynical. I feel like we don't know enough to judge too much, I mean I thought they migh be worse. Also how tf did these get leaked. The other leaders on the calls decided to release the transcripts? | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 04 2017 00:00 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Can we Flashpoint this? Is that possible? Everyone pretty much shit on my enhanced genetics dream, can I have this one? What, specifically, are you referring to? I'm not following. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On August 04 2017 00:02 Plansix wrote: The other leaders on the calls decided to release the transcripts? The transcripts were prepared by the White House but have not been released. The Post is publishing reproductions rather than original documents in order to protect sources. Doesn't seem likely. I don't know about the Mexican president but it doesn't seem like it would be Turnbull's style, either. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10604 Posts
On August 03 2017 23:55 Liquid`Drone wrote: I am actually positively surprised by those phonecalls. Was expecting worse. Obviously Trump has set a terribly low bar for himself for me to feel that way.. Same here. Well, I guess many people still, despite the slightest sign of this being the case, tought he would behave diffrently when talking with other leaders. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8936 Posts
On August 04 2017 00:02 LegalLord wrote: What, specifically, are you referring to? I'm not following. This alternative timeline we're living in. Where we didn't have two horrible choices for president and decided that the worst of the two was the correct call. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 04 2017 00:06 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: This alternative timeline we're living in. Where we didn't have two horrible choices for president and decided that the worst of the two was the correct call. Eh, that world doesn't sound as funny as the one we live in now. Color me suspicious. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8936 Posts
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 03 2017 23:59 Plansix wrote: I’m not really concerned with the motivations or if they feel justified in doing it. There is no moral high ground in the relationships between nations. All sides claim they have it, so no one really does. Russia is violating the sovereignty of our allies and it getting the response that should be expected for doing so. The US violates the sovereignty of other nations too and has to deal with the fall out afterwards. No amount of understanding is going to change the fact that they are trying to see how close they can come to picking a fight. Sure, we could talk about how this whole "moral high ground" thing doesn't exist, but that is a misdirection. You like to talk about how things were so good until Putin came along, without realizing that this all has little to do with Putin or evil dictators or whatever the fuck else you would wish to devise. Every president who came in during the post-1991 era left the presidency with a worse relationship with Russia than they had when they came in. Blaming Putin or "emboldening dictators" or Trump is just a crutch to make you feel better. It's more valuable to look at it in the overall context of a US-centric FP and how that dynamic is changing around the world. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8936 Posts
On August 04 2017 00:15 LegalLord wrote: Sure, we could talk about how this whole "moral high ground" thing doesn't exist, but that is a misdirection. You like to talk about how things were so good until Putin came along, without realizing that this all has little to do with Putin or evil dictators or whatever the fuck else you would wish to devise. Every president who came in during the post-1991 era left the presidency with a worse relationship with Russia than they had when they came in. Blaming Putin or "emboldening dictators" or Trump is just a crutch to make you feel better. It's more valuable to look at it in the overall context of a US-centric FP and how that dynamic is changing around the world. So you're suggesting that since post-1991 Presidents wanted more influence in Russia and didn't get it, they're at fault? | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 04 2017 00:17 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: So you're suggesting that since post-1991 Presidents wanted more influence in Russia and didn't get it, they're at fault? Not really sure what you're getting at here - what does this have to do with the context of deteriorating post-Soviet relations? | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8936 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 04 2017 00:23 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: You just said that every president after Bush1 has left relations with Russia worse. I'm just wanting more insight into your statement. It is true in and of itself and that much is very easily demonstrated. What about it would you like more insight about? I ask because I want to make sure I'm answering the right question. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8936 Posts
On August 04 2017 00:26 LegalLord wrote: It is true in and of itself and that much is very easily demonstrated. What about it would you like more insight about? I ask because I want to make sure I'm answering the right question. I don't think relations with Russia or the USSR has been very amicable since WW1. I don't see how, after the wall was torn down, we were at a better relation with Russia. The Cold War broke them and we rose into the sole super power. Now we have China on the rise and Russia wants their glory days back. How can you blame post-1991 Presidents? Economic sanctions are given to a lot of countries. Would you say that Cuba, NK, or China (before they rose), were under better relations, despite the sanctions against them? We are working to make Cuba an ally. China is flaunting it's power and ignoring most of the world when it comes to FP, and NK is just as crazy as it's ever been. | ||
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