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On July 28 2017 14:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 14:07 Nevuk wrote:
I'm not sure the democrats will get a better deal than Skinny repeal unless the GOP just decides "Fuck it, we're not repealing" which seems... unlikely. Yeah but none of the Republican options have even come close to being okay deals, as the CBO and the medical community have shown. The removal of the ACA should stay as a partisan act of bullshit and not have any approval from the Democrats, so that the Republicans are as likely as possible to hang themselves when they fuck over their constituents.
In a lot of ways the best political outcome for the democrats would be the skinny repeal. It would piss off a massive amount of people with the smallest possible death toll, and the lowest likelihood of a full collapse.
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Holy shit! If he left it is dead!
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On July 28 2017 14:10 TheTenthDoc wrote:
If they're having this much trouble getting the 50 votes for skinny repeal when saying it both will and won't change through conferencing...I am not sure how it will make it through conferencing if it gets there.
Either way, this looks REALLY REALLY bad for McConnell. Even if it passes he fucked up.
A lot of things he's done make him look really, really bad to people who are educated. His supporters probably don't care though, unfortunately.
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On July 28 2017 14:11 IyMoon wrote:Holy shit! If he left it is dead!
Not quite - there could be 51 senators on board. All it means is that it won't be 50-50
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On July 28 2017 14:11 IyMoon wrote:Holy shit! If he left it is dead!
Or he had to use the men's room.
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On July 28 2017 14:11 IyMoon wrote:Holy shit! If he left it is dead!
Don't count chickens yet. It could also mean they have 51 votes (unlikely, but quite possible).
On July 28 2017 14:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 14:10 TheTenthDoc wrote:
If they're having this much trouble getting the 50 votes for skinny repeal when saying it both will and won't change through conferencing...I am not sure how it will make it through conferencing if it gets there.
Either way, this looks REALLY REALLY bad for McConnell. Even if it passes he fucked up. A lot of things he's done make him look really, really bad to people who are educated. His supporters probably don't care though, unfortunately.
Eh, I'm talking more about Washington cred and goodwill. He's burned through a lot of it and showing nothing for it would be painful...and showing something for it might look even worse, funnily enough.
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First off from a politics pov the "skinny repeal" has the defunding of PP so it would be a nonstarter for democrats from the start.
However more important is the fact that of all the options I think this might just be the worst one. Tanking the things that make the healthcare system work is just going to cause prices to skyrocket. Yes the uninsured numbers are not as bad but the cost numbers are so bad for everyone.
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On July 28 2017 14:11 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 14:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 28 2017 14:07 Nevuk wrote:
I'm not sure the democrats will get a better deal than Skinny repeal unless the GOP just decides "Fuck it, we're not repealing" which seems... unlikely. Yeah but none of the Republican options have even come close to being okay deals, as the CBO and the medical community have shown. The removal of the ACA should stay as a partisan act of bullshit and not have any approval from the Democrats, so that the Republicans are as likely as possible to hang themselves when they fuck over their constituents. In a lot of ways the best political outcome for the democrats would be the skinny repeal. It would piss off a massive amount of people with the smallest possible death toll, and the lowest likelihood of a full collapse.
I can see where you're coming from with that, but the vote is so close right now that I think it would be bad for Democrats to roll over... they and the ACA could still live to fight another day.
None of this is really good though.
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On July 28 2017 14:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 14:11 Nevuk wrote:On July 28 2017 14:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 28 2017 14:07 Nevuk wrote:
I'm not sure the democrats will get a better deal than Skinny repeal unless the GOP just decides "Fuck it, we're not repealing" which seems... unlikely. Yeah but none of the Republican options have even come close to being okay deals, as the CBO and the medical community have shown. The removal of the ACA should stay as a partisan act of bullshit and not have any approval from the Democrats, so that the Republicans are as likely as possible to hang themselves when they fuck over their constituents. In a lot of ways the best political outcome for the democrats would be the skinny repeal. It would piss off a massive amount of people with the smallest possible death toll, and the lowest likelihood of a full collapse. I can see where you're coming from with that, but the vote is so close right now that I think it would be bad for Democrats to roll over... they and the ACA could still live to fight another day. None of this is really good though.
Oh, it doesn't really matter what the democrats do. I wasn't suggesting they vote for it, just noting that they're winning no matter what right now, politically speaking.
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On July 28 2017 14:13 TheTenthDoc wrote:Don't count chickens yet. It could also mean they have 51 votes (unlikely, but quite possible). Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 14:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 28 2017 14:10 TheTenthDoc wrote:
If they're having this much trouble getting the 50 votes for skinny repeal when saying it both will and won't change through conferencing...I am not sure how it will make it through conferencing if it gets there.
Either way, this looks REALLY REALLY bad for McConnell. Even if it passes he fucked up. A lot of things he's done make him look really, really bad to people who are educated. His supporters probably don't care though, unfortunately. Eh, I'm talking more about Washington cred and goodwill. He's burned through a lot of it and showing nothing for it would be painful.
Well it seems to be the case that he can keep pulling this shit over and over again until the needle moves a little bit. But I hope you're right that some of his colleagues start to get disillusioned with MM.
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...and you use that to further an objective. You have a reason for doing something. "data" is not a reason (1).
I think "skinny repeal" sucks (2). The process sucks, the bill sucks, and the betrayal sucks. I don't know why you had the impression I was in favor of it, except perhaps that you don't actually read what people write in any sort of reasonable manner.
(1) Now we are getting somewhere. Liberal values aren't like Marxist or Conservative values in that you don't reason from them. It is more of an outlook. The data means a lot to me because I have known people with some nasty pre-existing conditions. I know what would happen to them if they couldn't get insurance or if their insurer decided to play games with their coverage. That a lot of people had to be mandated into buying insurance (27-34 y/o YOLOs) and others had to pay higher premiums is a worthy cost in order to protect the insurance of people with nasty pre-existing conditions. ACA is a three legged stool: (1) mandate, (2) community rating/coverage guarantees, (3) taxes/subsidies. You can't have (2) community rating without (1) mandate and (3) taxes/subsidies. I am not working from some kind of principle here beyond trying to mitigate suffering. It is a more utilitarian approach than a classical liberal approach.
(2) I didn't notice. My mistake. Are you sure? It gets rid of some of the mandates for varying time lengths, and even the medical device tax. I listened to Senator Coryn and Senator Enzi talk at length about freedoms and individual choice. Shouldn't that be enough to overcome all the process concerns and insurance market risks? What is tipping you over to NO here? I actually am curious.
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The "best case" deal for democrats is after this fails republicans come to the table and work to stablize the markets next year and make small changes to help keep the system afloat.
Im not crazy enough to think the Senate has the courage to actually go after the cartel that is the drug industry or hospital charges so its unlikely that the costs of healthcare itself will go down.
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This is what obstruction really looks like.
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ACA lives to fight another day it seems.
tried to sneak something in past midnight and still couldn't get it, SMH.
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On July 28 2017 14:16 NewSunshine wrote:
This is what obstruction really looks like.
I am actually stunned that 49 Republicans are willing to vote for something that they openly admit if it became law would destroy the insurance market. It simply blows my mind that they are like "well itll get fixed later somehow" and that is the defense for voting for it.
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On July 28 2017 14:15 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 14:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 28 2017 14:11 Nevuk wrote:On July 28 2017 14:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 28 2017 14:07 Nevuk wrote:
I'm not sure the democrats will get a better deal than Skinny repeal unless the GOP just decides "Fuck it, we're not repealing" which seems... unlikely. Yeah but none of the Republican options have even come close to being okay deals, as the CBO and the medical community have shown. The removal of the ACA should stay as a partisan act of bullshit and not have any approval from the Democrats, so that the Republicans are as likely as possible to hang themselves when they fuck over their constituents. In a lot of ways the best political outcome for the democrats would be the skinny repeal. It would piss off a massive amount of people with the smallest possible death toll, and the lowest likelihood of a full collapse. I can see where you're coming from with that, but the vote is so close right now that I think it would be bad for Democrats to roll over... they and the ACA could still live to fight another day. None of this is really good though. Oh, it doesn't really matter what the democrats do. I wasn't suggesting they vote for it, just noting that they're winning no matter what right now, politically speaking.
Ah, I gotcha.
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On July 28 2017 14:18 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2017 14:16 NewSunshine wrote:
This is what obstruction really looks like. I am actually stunned that 49 Republicans are willing to vote for something that they openly admit if it became law would destroy the insurance market. It simply blows my mind that they are like "well itll get fixed later somehow" and that is the defense for voting for it.
They're trying to save face. They railed on for 7 years about how awful Obamacare was and how they would repeal it, but at no point did they actually offer ideas to either improve or replace it. It's a fucking disgrace. And they have the balls to call the Democrats obstructionist.
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Commentary: "McCain will vote No on Skinny Repeal."
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On July 28 2017 14:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Commentary: "McCain will vote No on Skinny Repeal."
well time to find out
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EPT
