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On July 20 2017 08:04 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2017 07:43 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 20 2017 07:34 KwarK wrote:On July 20 2017 07:24 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 20 2017 07:08 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 06:48 Nyxisto wrote:On July 20 2017 06:46 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 04:40 KwarK wrote:On July 20 2017 04:32 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 03:47 Plansix wrote: I visited the very flat state of Ohio this weekend and saw some of my very liberal friends there. They are all professors at Ohio State. We got into a bunch of discussions about politics and what we agree and disagree with. Several of them are from academic family backgrounds, while my wife and I are firmly from blue collar families(less so me, but my family all worked in our tiny factory). On the internet, people would consider that to be an echo chamber of people that agree, since we are all liberal. But that couldn’t be farther from the truth, since we all had very different viewpoints on educational, labor, regulation and pretty much everything else. And the view points were even broader when we visited my wife’s remaining family. But I know how everyone in that group voted during the election.
The left and right dynamic is a trap that will make you miss out on really understanding people’s political views and ideas.
If that's the only place you sound out your political views, you're living in an echo chamber. It doesn't refer to the self-evaluated size and scope of the disagreements, but rather to how many big picture ideas and understandings of the world are taken for granted ("very liberal" usually refers to a broad set). I absolutely know many insulated Californian liberals that were appalled anyone would vote for Trump, but would also bristle at being called an echo chamber--because they disagree with incrementalism, education, corporate taxation, and foreign affairs. Then they all get out and haven't talked to a single Trump voter about politics seriously and go off on the racism/sexism/stupidity diatribes just as before. So it really sounds like echo chamber is "close to the truth" instead of "couldn't be farther from the truth" The conclusion that a lot of Trump voters are racist and sexist is not from lack of exposure to Trump voters. It's from the opposite. I'm a little happy that people like you arrive at the conclusion that a lot of Trump voters are racist and sexist. He had a hair less than half the country vote for him, but the line you take is that exposure to their views just confirms that this is a huge constituency. Which means what you call racist and sexist is overly broad (common among thread liberals) or you're incapable of fair judgement (the other side isn't just wrong, they're racist sexist bigoted scumbags). It's a useful link to why liberals are so hated and actually bring it on themselves from their own unforced actions. the number of voters doesn't really say much about the assertion though, if a belief can't be bad by virtue of half of a nation holding it we'd all be living in a utopia Half the country is racist and sexist rates a little bit behind NASA faked the moon landings and the patriarchy is the most sinister force in the world today ... for me. It gives a good approximation of their progressive views on race and sex in America. Clinton got 66mil Trump 63mil, but you know those 63mil had a ton of irrational woman and black haters don't you know. It's actually a good sense of the gap America must bridge if we're to remain a united nation for much longer. Democrat polticians have so overplayed the race card on political opponents who were obviously not racist, that the term racist has lost all its power. Which is a real shame in a way, because then real actual racists get a free pass, because no one believes the accusation anymore. I don't think identity politics is the way to go for the Democrats, practically because being the Party who cried Racist doesn't work forever, and fundamentally it's morally wrong. I honestly think the identity politics thing is far stronger with the Republicans than anyone else. They have put all their chips on "white Christian male" and are insisting that they're the only hope for a restoration of the privileged days of the 50s where men were men, women were obedient, blacks weren't so uppity and gays knew better than to leave the closet. Republicanism is currently ideologically indistinguishable from this deplorable, fundamentally racist and sexist, delusional concept of a lost utopia that never was. It's not about lower taxes, fiscal responsibility, liberty, deregulation or anything else. The party message has lost all coherence, today it's nothing but masturbatory identity politics. That's why the #winning thing is so strong with them. All they really want is to know that blacks have been put back in their place and that the position of rich white men will always be safe in America. It doesn't matter what is done with the victory, the policies aren't important, all that matters is that the forces of "progress" are defeated. I for one wish women were obedient and blacks weren't so uppity. The gall to imagine they can be President and have success. Women demanding fair wages for the same amount of work! The nerve! We need those progressive values of the 50s back! (find the hyperbole and sarcasm) If women were actually doing the same exact work for less pay, why would anyone ever hire men? Definitely need to add /s at the end of your post. I thought that was a serious question.
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On July 20 2017 07:51 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2017 07:29 Nyxisto wrote:On July 20 2017 07:08 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 06:48 Nyxisto wrote:On July 20 2017 06:46 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 04:40 KwarK wrote:On July 20 2017 04:32 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 03:47 Plansix wrote: I visited the very flat state of Ohio this weekend and saw some of my very liberal friends there. They are all professors at Ohio State. We got into a bunch of discussions about politics and what we agree and disagree with. Several of them are from academic family backgrounds, while my wife and I are firmly from blue collar families(less so me, but my family all worked in our tiny factory). On the internet, people would consider that to be an echo chamber of people that agree, since we are all liberal. But that couldn’t be farther from the truth, since we all had very different viewpoints on educational, labor, regulation and pretty much everything else. And the view points were even broader when we visited my wife’s remaining family. But I know how everyone in that group voted during the election.
The left and right dynamic is a trap that will make you miss out on really understanding people’s political views and ideas.
If that's the only place you sound out your political views, you're living in an echo chamber. It doesn't refer to the self-evaluated size and scope of the disagreements, but rather to how many big picture ideas and understandings of the world are taken for granted ("very liberal" usually refers to a broad set). I absolutely know many insulated Californian liberals that were appalled anyone would vote for Trump, but would also bristle at being called an echo chamber--because they disagree with incrementalism, education, corporate taxation, and foreign affairs. Then they all get out and haven't talked to a single Trump voter about politics seriously and go off on the racism/sexism/stupidity diatribes just as before. So it really sounds like echo chamber is "close to the truth" instead of "couldn't be farther from the truth" The conclusion that a lot of Trump voters are racist and sexist is not from lack of exposure to Trump voters. It's from the opposite. I'm a little happy that people like you arrive at the conclusion that a lot of Trump voters are racist and sexist. He had a hair less than half the country vote for him, but the line you take is that exposure to their views just confirms that this is a huge constituency. Which means what you call racist and sexist is overly broad (common among thread liberals) or you're incapable of fair judgement (the other side isn't just wrong, they're racist sexist bigoted scumbags). It's a useful link to why liberals are so hated and actually bring it on themselves from their own unforced actions. the number of voters doesn't really say much about the assertion though, if a belief can't be bad by virtue of half of a nation holding it we'd all be living in a utopia Half the country is racist and sexist rates a little bit behind NASA faked the moon landings and the patriarchy is the most sinister force in the world today ... for me. It gives a good approximation of their progressive views on race and sex in America. Clinton got 66mil Trump 63mil, but you know those 63mil had a ton of irrational woman and black haters don't you know. It's actually a good sense of the gap America must bridge if we're to remain a united nation for much longer. I don't see this as an issue of 'progressiveness' really. The low rate of women in congress (20% just about the same level as Keyna) and the discussions about the legality of abortion stand out as issues that have long been resolved even in second world countries. I would have trouble calling the US unambiguously secular. I don't know whether the words "racist" or "sexist" as delineations are useful but culturally there is apparently a huge group of, especially religiously motivated reactionary stuff going on. And is the percentage of women in elected office necessarily a product of sexism, or abortion policy stemming from something sinister beyond genuine moral considerations? That's one of the problems with these isms and phobics: you have to twist everything to mean Obama was a raging homophobe before he wasn't, and the Clintons the same way. It will always shortcut debate and prompt backlash. Hi what are you political opinions, ok here's mine and by the way yours are motivated by racism and sexism. Not productive.
I think the participation rate of women, especially in the higher strata of politics is a very important indicator on how effectively women can participate. Again, I don't care whether we call it sexism or not if you don't like the word, but if a group is to this degree cut out of the political process something is off, and it will show in the political discourse.
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On July 20 2017 08:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2017 08:04 mozoku wrote:On July 20 2017 07:43 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 20 2017 07:34 KwarK wrote:On July 20 2017 07:24 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 20 2017 07:08 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 06:48 Nyxisto wrote:On July 20 2017 06:46 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 04:40 KwarK wrote:On July 20 2017 04:32 Danglars wrote: [quote] If that's the only place you sound out your political views, you're living in an echo chamber. It doesn't refer to the self-evaluated size and scope of the disagreements, but rather to how many big picture ideas and understandings of the world are taken for granted ("very liberal" usually refers to a broad set). I absolutely know many insulated Californian liberals that were appalled anyone would vote for Trump, but would also bristle at being called an echo chamber--because they disagree with incrementalism, education, corporate taxation, and foreign affairs. Then they all get out and haven't talked to a single Trump voter about politics seriously and go off on the racism/sexism/stupidity diatribes just as before.
So it really sounds like echo chamber is "close to the truth" instead of "couldn't be farther from the truth" The conclusion that a lot of Trump voters are racist and sexist is not from lack of exposure to Trump voters. It's from the opposite. I'm a little happy that people like you arrive at the conclusion that a lot of Trump voters are racist and sexist. He had a hair less than half the country vote for him, but the line you take is that exposure to their views just confirms that this is a huge constituency. Which means what you call racist and sexist is overly broad (common among thread liberals) or you're incapable of fair judgement (the other side isn't just wrong, they're racist sexist bigoted scumbags). It's a useful link to why liberals are so hated and actually bring it on themselves from their own unforced actions. the number of voters doesn't really say much about the assertion though, if a belief can't be bad by virtue of half of a nation holding it we'd all be living in a utopia Half the country is racist and sexist rates a little bit behind NASA faked the moon landings and the patriarchy is the most sinister force in the world today ... for me. It gives a good approximation of their progressive views on race and sex in America. Clinton got 66mil Trump 63mil, but you know those 63mil had a ton of irrational woman and black haters don't you know. It's actually a good sense of the gap America must bridge if we're to remain a united nation for much longer. Democrat polticians have so overplayed the race card on political opponents who were obviously not racist, that the term racist has lost all its power. Which is a real shame in a way, because then real actual racists get a free pass, because no one believes the accusation anymore. I don't think identity politics is the way to go for the Democrats, practically because being the Party who cried Racist doesn't work forever, and fundamentally it's morally wrong. I honestly think the identity politics thing is far stronger with the Republicans than anyone else. They have put all their chips on "white Christian male" and are insisting that they're the only hope for a restoration of the privileged days of the 50s where men were men, women were obedient, blacks weren't so uppity and gays knew better than to leave the closet. Republicanism is currently ideologically indistinguishable from this deplorable, fundamentally racist and sexist, delusional concept of a lost utopia that never was. It's not about lower taxes, fiscal responsibility, liberty, deregulation or anything else. The party message has lost all coherence, today it's nothing but masturbatory identity politics. That's why the #winning thing is so strong with them. All they really want is to know that blacks have been put back in their place and that the position of rich white men will always be safe in America. It doesn't matter what is done with the victory, the policies aren't important, all that matters is that the forces of "progress" are defeated. I for one wish women were obedient and blacks weren't so uppity. The gall to imagine they can be President and have success. Women demanding fair wages for the same amount of work! The nerve! We need those progressive values of the 50s back! (find the hyperbole and sarcasm) If women were actually doing the same work for less pay, why would anyone ever hire men? Because the free market is not filled exclusively with perfectly informed perfectly rational actors. Fine, let's reduce the generality of my question--that wasn't necessary anyway.
Why haven't we seen any start-ups with a women-only (as far as it's legally allowed) workforce crushing established players in any industries? Has nobody thought of this idea?
Entire businesses have been formed off the cheaper labor off-shoring model (e.g. Accenture, Tata, etc.), no? It's a leading cause of H1-B abuse. Why not with women? Shouldn't the same principle apply?
Definitely need to add /s at the end of your post. I thought that was a serious question. Thanks for dropping that knowledge bomb on me big guy.
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On July 20 2017 08:08 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2017 07:51 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 07:29 Nyxisto wrote:On July 20 2017 07:08 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 06:48 Nyxisto wrote:On July 20 2017 06:46 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 04:40 KwarK wrote:On July 20 2017 04:32 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 03:47 Plansix wrote: I visited the very flat state of Ohio this weekend and saw some of my very liberal friends there. They are all professors at Ohio State. We got into a bunch of discussions about politics and what we agree and disagree with. Several of them are from academic family backgrounds, while my wife and I are firmly from blue collar families(less so me, but my family all worked in our tiny factory). On the internet, people would consider that to be an echo chamber of people that agree, since we are all liberal. But that couldn’t be farther from the truth, since we all had very different viewpoints on educational, labor, regulation and pretty much everything else. And the view points were even broader when we visited my wife’s remaining family. But I know how everyone in that group voted during the election.
The left and right dynamic is a trap that will make you miss out on really understanding people’s political views and ideas.
If that's the only place you sound out your political views, you're living in an echo chamber. It doesn't refer to the self-evaluated size and scope of the disagreements, but rather to how many big picture ideas and understandings of the world are taken for granted ("very liberal" usually refers to a broad set). I absolutely know many insulated Californian liberals that were appalled anyone would vote for Trump, but would also bristle at being called an echo chamber--because they disagree with incrementalism, education, corporate taxation, and foreign affairs. Then they all get out and haven't talked to a single Trump voter about politics seriously and go off on the racism/sexism/stupidity diatribes just as before. So it really sounds like echo chamber is "close to the truth" instead of "couldn't be farther from the truth" The conclusion that a lot of Trump voters are racist and sexist is not from lack of exposure to Trump voters. It's from the opposite. I'm a little happy that people like you arrive at the conclusion that a lot of Trump voters are racist and sexist. He had a hair less than half the country vote for him, but the line you take is that exposure to their views just confirms that this is a huge constituency. Which means what you call racist and sexist is overly broad (common among thread liberals) or you're incapable of fair judgement (the other side isn't just wrong, they're racist sexist bigoted scumbags). It's a useful link to why liberals are so hated and actually bring it on themselves from their own unforced actions. the number of voters doesn't really say much about the assertion though, if a belief can't be bad by virtue of half of a nation holding it we'd all be living in a utopia Half the country is racist and sexist rates a little bit behind NASA faked the moon landings and the patriarchy is the most sinister force in the world today ... for me. It gives a good approximation of their progressive views on race and sex in America. Clinton got 66mil Trump 63mil, but you know those 63mil had a ton of irrational woman and black haters don't you know. It's actually a good sense of the gap America must bridge if we're to remain a united nation for much longer. I don't see this as an issue of 'progressiveness' really. The low rate of women in congress (20% just about the same level as Keyna) and the discussions about the legality of abortion stand out as issues that have long been resolved even in second world countries. I would have trouble calling the US unambiguously secular. I don't know whether the words "racist" or "sexist" as delineations are useful but culturally there is apparently a huge group of, especially religiously motivated reactionary stuff going on. And is the percentage of women in elected office necessarily a product of sexism, or abortion policy stemming from something sinister beyond genuine moral considerations? That's one of the problems with these isms and phobics: you have to twist everything to mean Obama was a raging homophobe before he wasn't, and the Clintons the same way. It will always shortcut debate and prompt backlash. Hi what are you political opinions, ok here's mine and by the way yours are motivated by racism and sexism. Not productive. I think the participation rate of women, especially in the higher strata of politics is a very important indicator on how effectively women can participate. Again, I don't care whether we call it sexism or not if you don't like the word, but if a group is to this degree cut out of the political process something is off, and it will show in the political discourse. Right. Maybe something is off educationally, culturally, or societally. Now you're going way too far with "cut out of the political process:" women still have the vote. White women voted for the man running for president when they had the choice of a woman also running. But I give you that 20% is a sizable enough discrepancy to merit investigation.
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United States42320 Posts
Not sure if sarcastic or genuinely asking why nobody has started a company with a business plan reading "hire women, pay them less".
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On July 20 2017 08:11 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2017 08:05 KwarK wrote:On July 20 2017 08:04 mozoku wrote:On July 20 2017 07:43 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 20 2017 07:34 KwarK wrote:On July 20 2017 07:24 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 20 2017 07:08 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 06:48 Nyxisto wrote:On July 20 2017 06:46 Danglars wrote:On July 20 2017 04:40 KwarK wrote: [quote] The conclusion that a lot of Trump voters are racist and sexist is not from lack of exposure to Trump voters. It's from the opposite. I'm a little happy that people like you arrive at the conclusion that a lot of Trump voters are racist and sexist. He had a hair less than half the country vote for him, but the line you take is that exposure to their views just confirms that this is a huge constituency. Which means what you call racist and sexist is overly broad (common among thread liberals) or you're incapable of fair judgement (the other side isn't just wrong, they're racist sexist bigoted scumbags). It's a useful link to why liberals are so hated and actually bring it on themselves from their own unforced actions. the number of voters doesn't really say much about the assertion though, if a belief can't be bad by virtue of half of a nation holding it we'd all be living in a utopia Half the country is racist and sexist rates a little bit behind NASA faked the moon landings and the patriarchy is the most sinister force in the world today ... for me. It gives a good approximation of their progressive views on race and sex in America. Clinton got 66mil Trump 63mil, but you know those 63mil had a ton of irrational woman and black haters don't you know. It's actually a good sense of the gap America must bridge if we're to remain a united nation for much longer. Democrat polticians have so overplayed the race card on political opponents who were obviously not racist, that the term racist has lost all its power. Which is a real shame in a way, because then real actual racists get a free pass, because no one believes the accusation anymore. I don't think identity politics is the way to go for the Democrats, practically because being the Party who cried Racist doesn't work forever, and fundamentally it's morally wrong. I honestly think the identity politics thing is far stronger with the Republicans than anyone else. They have put all their chips on "white Christian male" and are insisting that they're the only hope for a restoration of the privileged days of the 50s where men were men, women were obedient, blacks weren't so uppity and gays knew better than to leave the closet. Republicanism is currently ideologically indistinguishable from this deplorable, fundamentally racist and sexist, delusional concept of a lost utopia that never was. It's not about lower taxes, fiscal responsibility, liberty, deregulation or anything else. The party message has lost all coherence, today it's nothing but masturbatory identity politics. That's why the #winning thing is so strong with them. All they really want is to know that blacks have been put back in their place and that the position of rich white men will always be safe in America. It doesn't matter what is done with the victory, the policies aren't important, all that matters is that the forces of "progress" are defeated. I for one wish women were obedient and blacks weren't so uppity. The gall to imagine they can be President and have success. Women demanding fair wages for the same amount of work! The nerve! We need those progressive values of the 50s back! (find the hyperbole and sarcasm) If women were actually doing the same work for less pay, why would anyone ever hire men? Because the free market is not filled exclusively with perfectly informed perfectly rational actors. Fine, let's reduce the generality of my question--that wasn't necessary anyway. Why haven't we seen any start-ups with a women-only (as far as it's legally allowed) workforce crushing established players in any industries? Has nobody thought of this idea? Entire businesses have been formed off the cheaper labor off-shoring model (e.g. Accenture, Tata, etc.), no? It's a leading cause of H1-B abuse. Why not with women? Shouldn't the same principle apply? Show nested quote +Definitely need to add /s at the end of your post. I thought that was a serious question. Thanks for dropping that knowledge bomb on me big guy. Any time. I do what I can to help those in need. Hope you learned something.
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Everything is unfair to the president, especially civil servants having even a shred of integrity.
Edit: fuck, this interview is brutal. Trump is no fan of the justice department.
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A friendly reminder that Comey, during his hearing, said that there was information that he could not share in a public hearing (aka classified) that would force Sessions to recuse himself.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
So, since we're probably at least a year away from any real charges, I'm curious what you folk think: how deep does this Russia thing go?
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On July 20 2017 08:30 KwarK wrote: Not sure if sarcastic or genuinely asking why nobody has started a company with a business plan reading "hire women, pay them less". Why is that any more ridiculous than "hire H1-Bs, pay them less"?
If the level of extremity for some reason bothers you (as opposed to just being condescending), why are consulting firms male-dominated? By far the largest cost in that business is people, but consultants at the Big 3 have 70/30 male/female gender splits. Reverse that to 30/70, pay them 10% less, and you've reduced your total labor costs by 4.2%. Seems like an obvious move, doesn't it?
My eyes don't tell me that sexism is causing women to be paid less. My brain tells me that women often take a career gap mid-career, are (on average) less aggressive in social situations (unfavorable in most occupations), and culturally are less pressured to be career-driven. Women are, on average, better at multitasking but worse at focusing exclusively on a single task (i.e. work). These are real cultural and biological factors that would presumably affect women's pay in the aggregate.
Why is it necessarily "sexism" instead of these factors that explain the pay gap? "I see it with my eyes" is not good enough evidence.
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On July 20 2017 08:48 LegalLord wrote: So, since we're probably at least a year away from any real charges, I'm curious what you folk think: how deep does this Russia thing go? it wouldn't surprise me if we get the pee tape after all
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On July 20 2017 08:48 LegalLord wrote: So, since we're probably at least a year away from any real charges, I'm curious what you folk think: how deep does this Russia thing go? I think we're about as far in as we are going to get (but ive thought that before).
So Trump Jr meets with Russia at the lawyer meeting and trades dropping sanctions/Ukraine distancing for Hillary's emails to be released through wikileaks. Timing of his tweets show Trump knew of all this happening.
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On July 20 2017 08:52 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2017 08:30 KwarK wrote: Not sure if sarcastic or genuinely asking why nobody has started a company with a business plan reading "hire women, pay them less". Why is that any more ridiculous than "hire H1-Bs, pay them less"? If the level of extremity for some reason bothers you (as opposed to just being condescending), why are consulting firms male-dominated? By far the largest cost in that business is people, but consultants at the Big 3 have 70/30 male/female gender splits. Reverse that to 30/70, pay them 10% less, and you've reduced your total labor costs by 4.2%. Seems like an obvious move, doesn't it? My eyes don't tell me that sexism is causing women to be paid less. My brain tells me that women often take a career gap mid-career, are (on average) less aggressive in social situations (unfavorable in most occupations), and culturally are less pressured to be career-driven. Women are, on average, better at multitasking but worse at focusing exclusively on a single task (i.e. work). These are real cultural and biological factors that would presumably affect women's pay in the aggregate. Why is it necessarily "sexism" instead of these factors that explain the pay gap? "I see it with my eyes" is not good enough evidence. TBH that third paragraph on "less aggressive," "worse at focusing," and "biological factors" is enough to be called a sexist in Southern California circles.
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On July 20 2017 08:52 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2017 08:30 KwarK wrote: Not sure if sarcastic or genuinely asking why nobody has started a company with a business plan reading "hire women, pay them less". Why is that any more ridiculous than "hire H1-Bs, pay them less"? If the level of extremity for some reason bothers you (as opposed to just being condescending), why are consulting firms male-dominated? By far the largest cost in that business is people, but consultants at the Big 3 have 70/30 male/female gender splits. Reverse that to 30/70, pay them 10% less, and you've reduced your total labor costs by 4.2%. Seems like an obvious move, doesn't it? My eyes don't tell me that sexism is causing women to be paid less. My brain tells me that women often take a career gap mid-career, are (on average) less aggressive in social situations (unfavorable in most occupations), and culturally are less pressured to be career-driven. Women are, on average, better at multitasking but worse at focusing exclusively on a single task (i.e. work). These are real cultural and biological factors that would presumably affect women's pay in the aggregate. Why is it necessarily "sexism" instead of these factors that explain the pay gap? "I see it with my eyes" is not good enough evidence. Because it's male dominated and they have to deal with male egos. Would you take a negotiation on a multi-million/billion dollar cause seriously if a woman represented the other firm? Probably not. But a male counterpart would probably get that deal done and have the respect of the other party. It's as simple as that.
Women aren't less effective at those things, they are viewed that way. You're a prime example of why it's so hard for them to get their fair due in the corporate world.
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WASHINGTON — President Trump said on Wednesday that he never would have appointed Attorney General Jeff Sessions had he known Mr. Sessions would recuse himself from overseeing the Russia investigation that has dogged his presidency, calling the decision “very unfair to the president.”
In a remarkable public break with one of his earliest political supporters, Mr. Trump complained that Mr. Sessions’s decision ultimately led to the appointment of a special counsel that should not have happened. “Sessions should have never recused himself, and if he was going to recuse himself, he should have told me before he took the job and I would have picked somebody else,” Mr. Trump said.
In a wide-ranging interview with The New York Times, the president also accused James B. Comey, the F.B.I. director he fired in May, of trying to leverage a dossier of compromising material to keep his job. Mr. Trump criticized both the acting F.B.I. director who has been filling in since Mr. Comey’s dismissal and the deputy attorney general who recommended it. And he took on Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel now leading the investigation into Russian meddling in last year’s election.
Mr. Trump said Mr. Mueller was running an office rife with conflicts of interest and warned investigators against delving into matters too far afield from Russia. Mr. Trump never said he would order the Justice Department to fire Mr. Mueller, nor would he outline circumstances under which he might do so. But he left open the possibility as he expressed deep grievance over an investigation that has taken a political toll in the six months since he took office.
Asked if Mr. Mueller’s investigation would cross a red line if it expanded to look at his family’s finances beyond any relationship to Russia, Mr. Trump said, “I would say yes.” He would not say what he would do about it. “I think that’s a violation. Look, this is about Russia.”
While the interview touched on an array of issues, including health care, foreign affairs and politics, the investigation dominated the conversation. He said that as far as he knew, he was not under investigation himself, despite reports that Mr. Mueller is looking at whether the president obstructed justice by firing Mr. Comey.
“I don’t think we’re under investigation,” he said. “I’m not under investigation. For what? I didn’t do anything wrong.”
Describing a newly disclosed informal conversation he had with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia during a dinner of world leaders in Germany earlier this month, Mr. Trump said they talked for about 15 minutes, mostly about “pleasantries.” But Mr. Trump did say that they talked “about adoptions.” Mr. Putin banned American adoptions of Russian children in 2012 after the United States enacted sanctions on Russians accused of human rights abuses, an issue that remains a sore point in relations with Moscow.
Mr. Trump acknowledged that it was “interesting” that adoptions came up since his son, Donald Trump Jr., said that was the topic of a meeting he had with several Russians with ties to the Kremlin during last year’s campaign. Even though emails show that the session had been set up to pass along incriminating information about Hillary Clinton, the president said he did not need such material from Russia about Mrs. Clinton last year because he already had more than enough.
The interview came as the White House was trying to move beyond the Russia story and regain momentum following the collapse of health care legislation in the Senate. Relaxed and engaged, the president sat at the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office, with only one aide, Hope Hicks, sitting in on the interview. The session was sandwiched between a White House lunch with Republican senators and an event promoting “Made in America” week.
Over the course of 50 minutes, the often-fiery Mr. Trump demonstrated his more amiable side, joking about holding hands with the president of France and musing about having a military parade down a main avenue in Washington. He took satisfaction that unemployment has fallen and stock markets have risen to record highs on his watch.
At one point, his daughter, Ivanka, arrived at the doorway with her daughter Arabella, who ran to her grandfather and gave him a kiss. He greeted the six-year-old girl as “baby,” then urged her to show the reporters her ability to speak Chinese. She obliged.
But Mr. Trump left little doubt during the interview that the Russia investigation remained a sore point. His pique at Mr. Sessions, in particular, seemed fresh even months after the attorney general’s recusal. Mr. Sessions was the first senator to endorse Mr. Trump’s candidacy and was rewarded with a key Cabinet slot, but has been more distant from the president lately.
“Jeff Sessions takes the job, gets into the job, recuses himself, which frankly I think is very unfair to the president,” he added. “How do you take a job and then recuse yourself? If he would have recused himself before the job, I would have said, ‘Thanks, Jeff, but I’m not going to take you.’ It’s extremely unfair — and that’s a mild word — to the president.”
Mr. Trump also faulted Mr. Sessions for his testimony during Senate confirmation hearings when Mr. Sessions said he had not met with any Russians even though he had met at least twice with Ambassador Sergey I. Kislyak. “Jeff Sessions gave some bad answers,” the president said. “He gave some answers that were simple questions and should have been simple answers, but they weren’t.”
A spokesman for Mr. Sessions declined to comment on Wednesday.
The president added a new allegation against Mr. Comey, whose dismissal has become a central issue for critics who said it amounts to an attempt to obstruct the investigation into Russian meddling in last year’s election and any possible collusion with Mr. Trump’s team.
Mr. Trump recalled that a little more than two weeks before his inauguration, Mr. Comey and other intelligence officials briefed him at Trump Tower on Russian meddling. Mr. Comey afterward pulled Mr. Trump aside and told him about a dossier that had been assembled by a former British spy filled with salacious allegations against the incoming president, including supposed sexual escapades in Moscow. The F.B.I. has not corroborated the most sensational assertions in the dossier.
In the interview, Mr. Trump said he believes Mr. Comey told him about the dossier to implicitly make clear he had something to hold over the president. “In my opinion, he shared it so that I would think he had it out there,” Mr. Trump said. As leverage? “Yeah, I think so,’’ Mr. Trump said. “In retrospect.”
The president dismissed the assertions in the dossier: “When he brought it to me, I said this is really, made-up junk. I didn’t think about any of it. I just thought about man, this is such a phony deal.”
Mr. Comey declined to comment on Wednesday.
But Mr. Comey and other intelligence officials decided it was best for him to raise the subject with Mr. Trump alone because he was going to remain as F.B.I. director. Mr. Comey testified before Congress that he disclosed the details of the dossier to Mr. Trump because he thought that the media would soon be publishing details from it and that Mr. Trump had a right to know what information was out there about him.
Mr. Trump rebutted Mr. Comey’s claim that in a one-on-one meeting in the Oval Office on Feb. 14, the president asked him to end the investigation into his former national security adviser, Michael T. Flynn. Mr. Comey testified before Congress that Mr. Trump kicked the vice president, attorney general and several other senior administration officials out of the room before having the discussion with Mr. Comey.
“I don’t remember even talking to him about any of this stuff,” Mr. Trump said. “He said I asked people to go. Look, you look at his testimony. His testimony is loaded up with lies, O.K.?”
Mr. Trump was also critical of Mr. Mueller, a longtime former F.B.I. director, reprising some of his past complaints that lawyers in his office contributed money to Mrs. Clinton’s campaign. He noted that he actually interviewed Mr. Mueller to replace Mr. Comey just before his appointment as special counsel.
“He was up here and he wanted the job,” Mr. Trump said. After he was named special counsel, “I said, ‘What the hell is this all about?’ Talk about conflicts. But he was interviewing for the job. There were many other conflicts that I haven’t said, but I will at some point.”
The president also expressed discontent with Deputy Attorney General Rod J. Rosenstein, a former federal prosecutor from Baltimore. When Mr. Sessions recused himself, the president said he was irritated to learn where his deputy was from. “There are very few Republicans in Baltimore, if any,” he said of the predominately Democratic city.
He complained that Mr. Rosenstein had in effect been on both sides when it came to Mr. Comey. The deputy attorney general recommended Mr. Comey be fired but then appointed Mr. Mueller, who may be investigating whether the dismissal was an obstruction of justice. “Well, that’s a conflict of interest,” Mr. Trump said. “Do you know how many conflicts of interests there are?”
As for Andrew G. McCabe, the acting F.B.I. director, the president suggested that he too had a conflict. Mr. McCabe’s wife, Jill McCabe, received nearly $500,000 in 2015 during a losing campaign for the Virginia state Senate from a political action committee affiliated with Gov. Terry McAuliffe, a close friend of Hillary and Bill Clinton.
In his first description of his dinnertime conversation with Mr. Putin at the Group of 20 summit meeting in Hamburg, Germany, Mr. Trump downplayed its significance. He said his wife, Melania, was seated next to Mr. Putin at the other end of a table filled with world leaders.
“The meal was going toward dessert,’’ he said. “I went down just to say hello to Melania, and while I was there I said hello to Putin. Really, pleasantries more than anything else. It was not a long conversation, but it was, you know, could be 15 minutes. Just talked about things. Actually, it was very interesting, we talked about adoption.”
He noted the adoption issue came up in the June 2016 meeting between his son and Russian visitors. “I actually talked about Russian adoption with him,’’ he said, meaning Mr. Putin. “Which is interesting because it was a part of the conversation that Don had in that meeting.”
But the president repeated that he did not know about his son’s meeting at the time and added that he did not need the Russians to provide damaging information about Mrs. Clinton.
“There wasn’t much I could say about Hillary Clinton that was worse than what I was already saying,” he said. “Unless somebody said that she shot somebody in the back, there wasn’t much I could add to my repertoire.”
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On July 20 2017 08:48 LegalLord wrote: So, since we're probably at least a year away from any real charges, I'm curious what you folk think: how deep does this Russia thing go? I didn't think it would go as far as it already has gone - Junior showing fairly overt willingness to basically straight-up collude was quite a surprise. I still doubt that there will be any connections found between the actual hacking and the Trump campaign though. Although there's still that Manafort character that we haven't heard much from lately...
I don't understand how Gorsameth can come to the conclusion that the Trump campaign meeting with Russia is connected to Wikileaks. Wikileaks had the data for a long time and was dripping it out already at that time, were they not? I have to say I'm not 100% on the timeline of these things, but I haven't really seen anything to make me draw such a conclusion. Trump was just tweeting about it because his boy told him about the e-mail just after he received it - there hadn't been any meeting yet at that at time. What information was given to Wikileaks after the e-mail? And why would the Russians need to talk to the Trump campaign to do this at all? The Trump campaign had already added the pro-Russia lines in the Republican platform. I just don't think a tit-for-tat kind of deal was made. That would be really extraordinary.
I'm willing to buy the line of the "bait-and-switch" I guess, where the meeting wasn't about any information on Clinton at all. Maybe there was something else going on - but I can't convince myself that it was connected to any hacking. Russia wouldn't be stupid enough to implicate itself like that, would they? I mean, that'd basically be terminal to any sort of relationship with the US, no?
Also, Trump did a good thing today. I'm baffled. It seems he stopped the CIA from arming 'moderate rebels' in Syria. And the Washington Post is of course not at all framing their headline in a clickbaity 'Trump is a Russian puppet' kind of way. Very fair and balanced! (Why not just leave everything after the comma out, really? *Eyeroll*)
Trump ends covert CIA program to arm anti-Assad rebels in Syria, a move sought by Moscow
President Trump has decided to end the CIA’s covert program to arm and train moderate Syrian rebels battling the government of Bashar al-Assad, a move long sought by Russia, according to U.S. officials.
The program was a central plank of a policy begun by the Obama administration in 2013 to put pressure on Assad to step aside, but even its backers have questioned its efficacy since Russia deployed forces in Syria two years later.
Officials said the phasing out of the secret program reflects Trump’s interest in finding ways to work with Russia, which saw the anti-Assad program as an assault on its interests. The shuttering of the program is also an acknowledgment of Washington’s limited leverage and desire to remove Assad from power.
Just three months ago, after the United States accused Assad of using chemical weapons, Trump launched retaliatory airstrikes against a Syrian air base. At the time, U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley, said that “in no way do we see peace in that area with Assad at the head of the Syrian government.”
Officials said Trump made the decision to scrap the CIA program nearly a month ago, after an Oval Office meeting with CIA Director Mike Pompeo and national security adviser H.R. McMaster ahead of a July 7 meeting in Germany with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Source
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On July 20 2017 08:56 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2017 08:52 mozoku wrote:On July 20 2017 08:30 KwarK wrote: Not sure if sarcastic or genuinely asking why nobody has started a company with a business plan reading "hire women, pay them less". Why is that any more ridiculous than "hire H1-Bs, pay them less"? If the level of extremity for some reason bothers you (as opposed to just being condescending), why are consulting firms male-dominated? By far the largest cost in that business is people, but consultants at the Big 3 have 70/30 male/female gender splits. Reverse that to 30/70, pay them 10% less, and you've reduced your total labor costs by 4.2%. Seems like an obvious move, doesn't it? My eyes don't tell me that sexism is causing women to be paid less. My brain tells me that women often take a career gap mid-career, are (on average) less aggressive in social situations (unfavorable in most occupations), and culturally are less pressured to be career-driven. Women are, on average, better at multitasking but worse at focusing exclusively on a single task (i.e. work). These are real cultural and biological factors that would presumably affect women's pay in the aggregate. Why is it necessarily "sexism" instead of these factors that explain the pay gap? "I see it with my eyes" is not good enough evidence. TBH that third paragraph on "less aggressive," "worse at focusing," and "biological factors" is enough to be called a sexist in Southern California circles. The female attorneys I work for agree that it is pretty sexist.
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