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On June 29 2017 01:47 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2017 01:43 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2017 01:36 Nyxisto wrote:
I can't believe that I agree with Danglars but to frame it any other way than left-wingers being zealous about Israel is ridiculous. This is a well known issue on the political left. British student politics had this going on for a long time too, and in Germany this actually led to a split on the far-left in the 90s. Israel makes it very hard to support them. Same with the Palestinians, though less so in this modern era. Throwing people with a David's star out of a lgbt rally goes much further than not supporting Israel politically though, it's a pretty anti-semitic statement. If you don't like Israel's foreign politics you can join another demonstration, but kicking someone out just for displaying Israelian nationality?
From the organizers statements, they asked the two women to leave because they were loudly expressing a pro-Israel/Zionist stance, not because of the flags alone. If people want to believe it was because of the flags, that is up to them. I will freely admit the organizers could be lying.
And no, I don't believe that pro-Zionist, pro-Israel statements have a place at rally that is focused on peace and the freedom of oppressed people. I also don't think that statements of American Exceptionalism have any place at such a rally.
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Canada11279 Posts
On June 29 2017 01:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2017 01:47 Nyxisto wrote:On June 29 2017 01:43 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2017 01:36 Nyxisto wrote:
I can't believe that I agree with Danglars but to frame it any other way than left-wingers being zealous about Israel is ridiculous. This is a well known issue on the political left. British student politics had this going on for a long time too, and in Germany this actually led to a split on the far-left in the 90s. Israel makes it very hard to support them. Same with the Palestinians, though less so in this modern era. Throwing people with a David's star out of a lgbt rally goes much further than not supporting Israel politically though, it's a pretty anti-semitic statement. From the organizers statements, they asked the two women to leave because they were loudly expressing a pro-Israel/Zionist stance, not because of the flags alone. If people want to believe it was because of the flags, that is up to them. I will freely admit the organizers could be lying.
They may not be lying but they could also have an anti-Israel bias such that would conflate most anything with Zionism. There are some pretty hostile people out there.
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On June 29 2017 01:56 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2017 01:53 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2017 01:47 Nyxisto wrote:On June 29 2017 01:43 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2017 01:36 Nyxisto wrote:
I can't believe that I agree with Danglars but to frame it any other way than left-wingers being zealous about Israel is ridiculous. This is a well known issue on the political left. British student politics had this going on for a long time too, and in Germany this actually led to a split on the far-left in the 90s. Israel makes it very hard to support them. Same with the Palestinians, though less so in this modern era. Throwing people with a David's star out of a lgbt rally goes much further than not supporting Israel politically though, it's a pretty anti-semitic statement. From the organizers statements, they asked the two women to leave because they were loudly expressing a pro-Israel/Zionist stance, not because of the flags alone. If people want to believe it was because of the flags, that is up to them. I will freely admit the organizers could be lying. They may not be lying but they could also have an anti-Israel bias such that would conflate most anything with Zionism. There are some pretty hostile people out there.
If the rally is about peace and the freedom of oppressed people, I don't they belong there. The same with "pro-america" statements, since we are actively involved with a number of wars across the world.
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On June 29 2017 01:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2017 01:56 Falling wrote:On June 29 2017 01:53 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2017 01:47 Nyxisto wrote:On June 29 2017 01:43 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2017 01:36 Nyxisto wrote:
I can't believe that I agree with Danglars but to frame it any other way than left-wingers being zealous about Israel is ridiculous. This is a well known issue on the political left. British student politics had this going on for a long time too, and in Germany this actually led to a split on the far-left in the 90s. Israel makes it very hard to support them. Same with the Palestinians, though less so in this modern era. Throwing people with a David's star out of a lgbt rally goes much further than not supporting Israel politically though, it's a pretty anti-semitic statement. From the organizers statements, they asked the two women to leave because they were loudly expressing a pro-Israel/Zionist stance, not because of the flags alone. If people want to believe it was because of the flags, that is up to them. I will freely admit the organizers could be lying. They may not be lying but they could also have an anti-Israel bias such that would conflate most anything with Zionism. There are some pretty hostile people out there. If the rally is about peace and the freedom of oppressed people, I don't they belong there. The same with "pro-america" statements, since we are actively involved with a number of wars across the world.
The article actually puts it pretty well
She isn’t. Because though intersectionality cloaks itself in the garb of humanism, it takes a Manichaean view of life in which there can only be oppressors and oppressed. To be a Jewish dyke, let alone one who deigns to support Israel, is a categorical impossibility, oppressor and oppressed in the same person.
A group of people that claims to be diverse and intersectional ought to be able to handle a little bit of ambiguity, I don't see the probllem with an American flag either, not every American is an oppressor and that's not really what you can boil the flag down to.
You can't advocate diversity and then shriek at the tiniest little bit of conflict and then complain that "it look too much like the Israeli flag, they said, and it triggers people and makes them feel unsafe. This was their complaint.” That's the same stuff notoriously homophobic people say when they see two gay people making out
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Canada11279 Posts
On June 29 2017 01:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2017 01:56 Falling wrote:On June 29 2017 01:53 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2017 01:47 Nyxisto wrote:On June 29 2017 01:43 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2017 01:36 Nyxisto wrote:
I can't believe that I agree with Danglars but to frame it any other way than left-wingers being zealous about Israel is ridiculous. This is a well known issue on the political left. British student politics had this going on for a long time too, and in Germany this actually led to a split on the far-left in the 90s. Israel makes it very hard to support them. Same with the Palestinians, though less so in this modern era. Throwing people with a David's star out of a lgbt rally goes much further than not supporting Israel politically though, it's a pretty anti-semitic statement. From the organizers statements, they asked the two women to leave because they were loudly expressing a pro-Israel/Zionist stance, not because of the flags alone. If people want to believe it was because of the flags, that is up to them. I will freely admit the organizers could be lying. They may not be lying but they could also have an anti-Israel bias such that would conflate most anything with Zionism. There are some pretty hostile people out there. If the rally is about peace and the freedom of oppressed people, I don't they belong there. The same with "pro-america" statements, since we are actively involved with a number of wars across the world.
They actually do belong unless all people are classed the same as though they have had equal treatment worldwide. What goes on in Israel is not very relevant to Jewish Americans who to this day are targets of white supremacist ire (responsible for plotting white genocide for instance.) Jews in America have historically been targets of the KKK and so if this is a march of intersectual oppressed people, they have as much right to be there, portraying their Jewishness with the Star of David which predates the modern state of Israel by several centuries.
Some interesting viewpoints aired by the Washington Post:
“What was hurtful was that it happened repeatedly and some began making accusations about me, but basing those accusations on who they thought I was and what that symbol means to them,” Grauer said, referring to her Jewish pride flag. “Some of the organizers said the Star of David was a symbol of Jewish apartheid. They said the march was explicitly pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist, but on their webpage and Facebook page there’s no mention of that.”
Carrie Kaufman (an organizer?)
“I want to speak to other Jews and say that firstly — saying you’re ‘not Zionist’ as a way to justify an allegiance to something or to not be critical of Zionism is not the same as being anti-Zionist, and is actually a position of neutrality which means being uncritical of the state of Israel,” Carrie Kaufman wrote. “It is very important that American Jews understand how this symbol and the idea that white European Jews are entitled to Israel have been used to fuel a colonialist state where Palestinian people are robbed of their rights, dignity, and lives on their own land.”
In other words, one must be critical of Israel in order to march. Simply being 'not Zionist' isn't enough.
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I have no idea how they behaved. But if i am at a political rally about, i don't know, nucular energy and i start waving german flags and shouting "Schlaaaaaand" i am not sure why i should be welcome there. Without evidence of what happened there, there is a good chance of anti-semitism going on there, and there also is a good chance of people misbehaving and getting shown the door. In both cases the reaction in that article is wrong, in my opinion.
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Canada11279 Posts
Your above example doesn't make sense because Germaness and nuclear energy have nothing to do with each other. But intersectionality connects oppression of ethnicity to all other forms of identity oppression. Therefore, under this mindset, ones ethnicity (which has historically experienced racism) has everything to do with the march.
"Yesterday during the rally we saw three individuals carrying Israeli flags super imposed on rainbow flags. Some folks say they are Jewish Pride flags. But as a Collective we are very much pro-Palestine, and when we see these flags we know a lot of folks who are under attack by Israel see the visuals of the flag as a threat, so we don't want anything in the [Dyke March] space that can inadvertently or advertently express Zionism," she said. "So we asked the folks to please leave. We told them people in the space were feeling threatened
"Yesterday, June 24, Chicago Dyke March was held in the La Villita neighborhood to express support for undocumented, refugee, and immigrant communities under threat of deportation. Sadly, our celebration of dyke, queer, and trans solidarity was partially overshadowed by our decision to ask three individuals carrying Israeli flags superimposed on rainbow flags to leave the rally. This decision was made after they repeatedly expressed support for Zionism during conversations with Chicago Dyke March Collective members. We have since learned that at least one of these individuals is a regional director for A Wider Bridge, an organization with connections to the Israeli state and right-wing pro-Israel interest groups. A Wider Bridge has been protested for provocative actions at other LGBTQ events and has been condemned by numerous organizations (tarabnyc.org/cancelpinkwashing/&; for using Israel's supposed "LGBTQ tolerance" to pinkwash the violent occupation of Palestine.
"The Chicago Dyke March Collective is explicitly not anti-Semitic, we are anti-Zionist. The Chicago Dyke March Collective supports the liberation of Palestine and all oppressed people everywhere.
"From Palestine to Mexico, border walls have got to go!!
"[Edited to add: We want to make clear that anti-Zionist Jewish volunteers and supporters are welcome at Dyke March and were involved in conversations with the individuals who were asked to leave. We are planning to make a longer statement in the future.]"
From Chicagoist.
Kind of sounds like it was about the flags... and they only after found out that the people were a part of an organization that they disagreed with.
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On June 29 2017 02:05 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2017 01:59 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2017 01:56 Falling wrote:On June 29 2017 01:53 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2017 01:47 Nyxisto wrote:On June 29 2017 01:43 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2017 01:36 Nyxisto wrote:
I can't believe that I agree with Danglars but to frame it any other way than left-wingers being zealous about Israel is ridiculous. This is a well known issue on the political left. British student politics had this going on for a long time too, and in Germany this actually led to a split on the far-left in the 90s. Israel makes it very hard to support them. Same with the Palestinians, though less so in this modern era. Throwing people with a David's star out of a lgbt rally goes much further than not supporting Israel politically though, it's a pretty anti-semitic statement. From the organizers statements, they asked the two women to leave because they were loudly expressing a pro-Israel/Zionist stance, not because of the flags alone. If people want to believe it was because of the flags, that is up to them. I will freely admit the organizers could be lying. They may not be lying but they could also have an anti-Israel bias such that would conflate most anything with Zionism. There are some pretty hostile people out there. If the rally is about peace and the freedom of oppressed people, I don't they belong there. The same with "pro-america" statements, since we are actively involved with a number of wars across the world. They actually do belong unless all people are classed the same as though they have had equal treatment worldwide. What goes on in Israel is not very relevant to Jewish Americans who to this day are targets of white supremacist ire (responsible for plotting white genocide for instance.) Jews in America have historically been targets of the KKK and so if this is a march of intersectual oppressed people, they have as much right to be there, portraying their Jewishness with the Star of David which predates the modern state of Israel by several centuries.
I totally agree. If the flags are the only reason they were kicked out, that isn't right. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that specific point. My understanding is the flags were not the reason they were asked to leave.
And to further my point, I think this political climate is feeding conflicted relationship diversity movements and the concepts of national pride. For any nation. And it is something we need to navigate. The return to "our nation vs the others" in the main stream political discourse makes all this more complicated.
Edit 2:
Carrie Kaufman (an organizer?)
“I want to speak to other Jews and say that firstly — saying you’re ‘not Zionist’ as a way to justify an allegiance to something or to not be critical of Zionism is not the same as being anti-Zionist, and is actually a position of neutrality which means being uncritical of the state of Israel,” Carrie Kaufman wrote. “It is very important that American Jews understand how this symbol and the idea that white European Jews are entitled to Israel have been used to fuel a colonialist state where Palestinian people are robbed of their rights, dignity, and lives on their own land.”
In other words, one must be critical of Israel in order to march. Simply being 'not Zionist' isn't enough.
I am conflicted on this one. I don't and reject like purity tests as a whole, but it is hard to square that with the Israel/Palestinian issue. I'm not sure I can fully make up my mind on that yet. But I do think that it is reasonable to ask anyone to keep those opinions to themselves during the rally.
Edit 3:
"Yesterday during the rally we saw three individuals carrying Israeli flags super imposed on rainbow flags. Some folks say they are Jewish Pride flags. But as a Collective we are very much pro-Palestine, and when we see these flags we know a lot of folks who are under attack by Israel see the visuals of the flag as a threat, so we don't want anything in the [Dyke March] space that can inadvertently or advertently express Zionism," she said. "So we asked the folks to please leave. We told them people in the space were feeling threatened
If that is the case, that is sad and I'm not sure I support it. I don't want to think that the Star of David could be seen as threatening to some people. But I'm also not comfortable telling people what they should or shouldn't feel threatened by. I would have hoped the two groups could have had a discussion about it. But the march isn't likely the right venue for that.
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On June 28 2017 23:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2017 23:37 farvacola wrote:On June 28 2017 23:33 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2017 23:32 farvacola wrote:
Lazy 30 somethings who live and die by their Amazon Prime accounts are suddenly hotly political! I feel personally attacked by this post. You post way too much in this thread to qualify as politically lazy, but yeah, I love my prime account too  I wish they would offer an upgrade where they would take all the shipping materials to the recycling center. It would save me some hassle with my garbage collector. Show nested quote +On June 28 2017 23:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I bet TL is dodging internet taxes too #AMAZONTL
On a serious note besides non existing internet taxes what is he even referring to? I have to assume he didn’t get the memo that Amazon now charges sales tax per state. They were not for a while. Then the states all started to gear up to come after them and Amazon came to Jesus.
haha, Amazon is one of the only places I can shop without paying a sales tax. Not sure how I feel about it though, knowing it's my own state getting shorted on the revenue.
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On June 29 2017 02:13 Falling wrote:Your above example doesn't make sense because Germaness and nuclear energy have nothing to do with each other. But intersectionality connects oppression of ethnicity to all other forms of identity oppression. Therefore, under this mindset, ones ethnicity (which has historically experienced racism) has everything to do with the march. Show nested quote +"Yesterday during the rally we saw three individuals carrying Israeli flags super imposed on rainbow flags. Some folks say they are Jewish Pride flags. But as a Collective we are very much pro-Palestine, and when we see these flags we know a lot of folks who are under attack by Israel see the visuals of the flag as a threat, so we don't want anything in the [Dyke March] space that can inadvertently or advertently express Zionism," she said. "So we asked the folks to please leave. We told them people in the space were feeling threatened Show nested quote +"Yesterday, June 24, Chicago Dyke March was held in the La Villita neighborhood to express support for undocumented, refugee, and immigrant communities under threat of deportation. Sadly, our celebration of dyke, queer, and trans solidarity was partially overshadowed by our decision to ask three individuals carrying Israeli flags superimposed on rainbow flags to leave the rally. This decision was made after they repeatedly expressed support for Zionism during conversations with Chicago Dyke March Collective members. We have since learned that at least one of these individuals is a regional director for A Wider Bridge, an organization with connections to the Israeli state and right-wing pro-Israel interest groups. A Wider Bridge has been protested for provocative actions at other LGBTQ events and has been condemned by numerous organizations (tarabnyc.org/cancelpinkwashing/&; for using Israel's supposed "LGBTQ tolerance" to pinkwash the violent occupation of Palestine.
"The Chicago Dyke March Collective is explicitly not anti-Semitic, we are anti-Zionist. The Chicago Dyke March Collective supports the liberation of Palestine and all oppressed people everywhere.
"From Palestine to Mexico, border walls have got to go!!
"[Edited to add: We want to make clear that anti-Zionist Jewish volunteers and supporters are welcome at Dyke March and were involved in conversations with the individuals who were asked to leave. We are planning to make a longer statement in the future.]" From Chicagoist. Kind of sounds like it was about the flags... and they only after found out that the people were a part of an organization that they disagreed with.
we don't want anything in the [Dyke March] space that can inadvertently or advertently express Zionism
This is kind of my point. It shouldn't matter if some pro-Palestinian demonstrators in a LGBT march take a flag with a normal symbol of Jewish identity to be an inadvertent Zionist message; it isn't the case and the solution should be patient education, not cowardice. I think more liberality would go a long way here.
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On June 29 2017 01:34 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2017 01:15 Danglars wrote:On June 29 2017 01:01 Broetchenholer wrote:On June 29 2017 00:32 Danglars wrote:I’m Glad the Dyke March Banned Jewish Stars
This weekend, at a lesbian march in Chicago, three women carrying Jewish pride flags — rainbow flags embossed with a Star of David — were kicked out of the celebration on the grounds that their flags were a “trigger.” An organizer of the Dyke March told the Windy City Times that the fabric “made people feel unsafe” and that she and the other members of the Dyke March collective didn’t want anything “that can inadvertently or advertently express Zionism” at the event.
Laurel Grauer, one of the women who was ejected, said she’d been carrying that Jewish pride flag in the march, held on the Saturday before the city’s official Pride Parade, for more than a decade. It “celebrates my queer, Jewish identity,” she explained. This year, however, she lost track of the number of people who harassed her for carrying it.
I’m sorry for the women, like Ms. Grauer, who found themselves under genuine threat for carrying a colorful cloth falsely accused of being pernicious.
But I am also grateful.
Has there ever been a crisper expression of the consequences of “intersectionality” than a ban on Jewish lesbians from a Dyke March? NYT The Article seems to be a bit heavy on the us vs them theme. Jews, you are not liked here in the US, especially not by the progressives because they hate Israel. That's what seems to be the idea of it and i can't stress enough how stupid that is. Judaism is not Israel, antisemitism and anti-israel sentiments are not the same. And when i see ad-banners on TL that tell me that every 7 seconds somebody posts a lie about israel on the internet and i should speak out against it, i am a bit concerned that opinion pieces like that are a part of a coordinated campaign. Just assuming it was accurate for the moment that the flags themselves were the cause for removal, would that raise your rancor? I'm more in the belief that being proud of your nationality shouldn't preclude your participation in a marches made in support of your views. This stands no matter what people think of the politics of your home country, or the oppression ladder you fall under. I personally don't understand the need to show pride for your country, because you can only be proud of stuff you influenced in some way. I do however understand that some people feel strongly about it and they should be allowed to show their pride. If the flags themselves were the reason they were asked to leave, then of course that is wrong. And i have no idea why they were asked to leave but anti-israel sentiment is probably the reason for it, or even antisemitism. I just see a parallel between "invest in Israel now!" and "don't let them lie about israel" ads on TL and the opinion piece stating to be aware that they hate us jews and that we jews should not be anti-israel. Look at the title: "I'm glad the Dyke March banned Jewish Stars".
I think we should be more aware of the innocence of a Jews for GLBT rights message (star of David on rainbow background). Don't use either a rotten strain of intersectionality (author's choice of example to open a broader topic) or certain group's heightened sensitivities (pro-Palestine groups sometimes display extreme antisemitism) to undermine the movement or exclude participation based on nationality-rooted bigotry.
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On June 29 2017 02:42 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2017 02:13 Falling wrote:Your above example doesn't make sense because Germaness and nuclear energy have nothing to do with each other. But intersectionality connects oppression of ethnicity to all other forms of identity oppression. Therefore, under this mindset, ones ethnicity (which has historically experienced racism) has everything to do with the march. "Yesterday during the rally we saw three individuals carrying Israeli flags super imposed on rainbow flags. Some folks say they are Jewish Pride flags. But as a Collective we are very much pro-Palestine, and when we see these flags we know a lot of folks who are under attack by Israel see the visuals of the flag as a threat, so we don't want anything in the [Dyke March] space that can inadvertently or advertently express Zionism," she said. "So we asked the folks to please leave. We told them people in the space were feeling threatened "Yesterday, June 24, Chicago Dyke March was held in the La Villita neighborhood to express support for undocumented, refugee, and immigrant communities under threat of deportation. Sadly, our celebration of dyke, queer, and trans solidarity was partially overshadowed by our decision to ask three individuals carrying Israeli flags superimposed on rainbow flags to leave the rally. This decision was made after they repeatedly expressed support for Zionism during conversations with Chicago Dyke March Collective members. We have since learned that at least one of these individuals is a regional director for A Wider Bridge, an organization with connections to the Israeli state and right-wing pro-Israel interest groups. A Wider Bridge has been protested for provocative actions at other LGBTQ events and has been condemned by numerous organizations (tarabnyc.org/cancelpinkwashing/&; for using Israel's supposed "LGBTQ tolerance" to pinkwash the violent occupation of Palestine.
"The Chicago Dyke March Collective is explicitly not anti-Semitic, we are anti-Zionist. The Chicago Dyke March Collective supports the liberation of Palestine and all oppressed people everywhere.
"From Palestine to Mexico, border walls have got to go!!
"[Edited to add: We want to make clear that anti-Zionist Jewish volunteers and supporters are welcome at Dyke March and were involved in conversations with the individuals who were asked to leave. We are planning to make a longer statement in the future.]" From Chicagoist. Kind of sounds like it was about the flags... and they only after found out that the people were a part of an organization that they disagreed with. Show nested quote +we don't want anything in the [Dyke March] space that can inadvertently or advertently express Zionism This is kind of my point. It shouldn't matter if some pro-Palestinian demonstrators in a LGBT march take a flag with a normal symbol of Jewish identity to be an inadvertent Zionist message; it isn't the case and the solution should be patient education, not cowardice. I think more liberality would go a long way here.
I agree with that the issue should have been handled better. I think there is a larger discussion to be had about the changing nature of that conflict. As we get farther removed from the 1940s and that conflict persists unchanged, the views of the symbols associated with Jewish-ness and Israel change as well. I grew up with a lot of liberal kids in the 90s and most of them have completely turned corner on Israel in the last 10 years. And sadly, the Star of David is going to be dragged into that change as well.
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Hmm... the only question I'm left with is whether Pruitt is Chaotic Evil, Neutral Evil, or Lawful Evil.
I love that Trumps idea of draining the swamp is filling it with snakes.
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On June 29 2017 03:11 On_Slaught wrote:Hmm... the only question I'm left with is whether Pruitt is Chaotic Evil, Neutral Evil, or Lawful Evil. I love that Trumps idea of draining the swamp is filling it with snakes.
The Trump presidency has made me pretty sure there needs to be a third dimension of greedy/selfless on that axis. (yes there can be selfless lawful evil-it's pretty much what Ayn Rand thinks all socialists are after all and she never had much of an imagination)
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 29 2017 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2017 23:49 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2017 23:37 farvacola wrote:On June 28 2017 23:33 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2017 23:32 farvacola wrote:
Lazy 30 somethings who live and die by their Amazon Prime accounts are suddenly hotly political! I feel personally attacked by this post. You post way too much in this thread to qualify as politically lazy, but yeah, I love my prime account too I wish they would offer an upgrade where they would take all the shipping materials to the recycling center. It would save me some hassle with my garbage collector. On June 28 2017 23:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I bet TL is dodging internet taxes too #AMAZONTL
On a serious note besides non existing internet taxes what is he even referring to? I have to assume he didn’t get the memo that Amazon now charges sales tax per state. They were not for a while. Then the states all started to gear up to come after them and Amazon came to Jesus. haha, Amazon is one of the only places I can shop without paying a sales tax. Not sure how I feel about it though, knowing it's my own state getting shorted on the revenue.
As sales taxes have started to work their way into Amazon, I've definitely started to use it less and less. Still fantastic for books and occasional electronics but it definitely does take its toll to have to pay taxes.
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Canada11279 Posts
On June 29 2017 02:17 Plansix wrote:
If that is the case, that is sad and I'm not sure I support it. I don't want to think that the Star of David could be seen as threatening to some people. But I'm also not comfortable telling people what they should or shouldn't feel threatened by. I would have hoped the two groups could have had a discussion about it. But the march isn't likely the right venue for that.
Well, I'm perfectly happy to say they are wrong I don't believe perception is reality, and I believe people should seek to use truth to correct their very often false perceptions. Unless they directly immigrated from Palestine and experienced oppression first hand, I don't see any reason to feel threatened by a flag that is vaguely similar to another country half a world away.
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On June 29 2017 03:33 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2017 02:17 Plansix wrote:
If that is the case, that is sad and I'm not sure I support it. I don't want to think that the Star of David could be seen as threatening to some people. But I'm also not comfortable telling people what they should or shouldn't feel threatened by. I would have hoped the two groups could have had a discussion about it. But the march isn't likely the right venue for that. Well, I'm perfectly happy to say they are wrong I don't believe perception is reality, and I believe people should seek to use truth to correct their very often false perceptions. Unless they directly immigrated from Palestine and experienced oppression first hand, I don't see any reason to feel threatened by a flag that is vaguely similar to another country half a world away.
I guess I lack your conviction in my world views then. I don’t think they are wrong, but I think they could express their reservations about the Israel and the flags in a more productive manner. There are people in this world that see the US flag as the sources of violence, pain, and suffering and I’m not going to tell them otherwise. If they don’t want to see the flag of my country in whatever form, I don’t blame them.
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