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United States43989 Posts
On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:29 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:15 corumjhaelen wrote:
[quote]
And I'm sure you're very well-versed in the fascinating arcanes of European extreme left to say that. Intolerant was in reference to Golden Dawn. Regardless, it's a politics thread so yeah I'm absolutely going to disagree with opposing political views here. It's kind of what this thread is for. And my open-mindedness was in reference to communists, who apparently are the same anyway, horrible dodge. Also you said voting for them didn't make sense, a little stronger than merely disagreeing. I think communism has historically been about as good for humanity as fascism. So if you want to convince me that voting communist is a good idea, good luck. Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different.
If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar.
This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you.
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On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:29 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Intolerant was in reference to Golden Dawn. Regardless, it's a politics thread so yeah I'm absolutely going to disagree with opposing political views here. It's kind of what this thread is for. And my open-mindedness was in reference to communists, who apparently are the same anyway, horrible dodge. Also you said voting for them didn't make sense, a little stronger than merely disagreeing. I think communism has historically been about as good for humanity as fascism. So if you want to convince me that voting communist is a good idea, good luck. Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you.
What really matters more in this instance? The logical reality or the statistical reality?
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On January 14 2014 05:52 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 05:46 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:44 Shiragaku wrote:
and the communists in other European countries were often the first to respond to fascism.
Except, you guess it, the communist party in France for instance. Comrade Staline, how good were you... I am sorry to say, but anything coming from PCF and French Left makes me sad.
I think it's hilarious imo, but that's another question :p I mean, do you know the difference between lambertists and pablists ?
That being said the PCF hasn't been that good since before 1921 :p I guess being doomed to disappear does that to some people.
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On January 14 2014 06:07 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:29 corumjhaelen wrote:
[quote]
And my open-mindedness was in reference to communists, who apparently are the same anyway, horrible dodge.
Also you said voting for them didn't make sense, a little stronger than merely disagreeing. I think communism has historically been about as good for humanity as fascism. So if you want to convince me that voting communist is a good idea, good luck. Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. What really matters more in this instance? The logical reality or the statistical reality?
I have no clue what you're calling statistics, but I don't think we use the word the same way. Care to elaborate ?^^
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On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:29 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Intolerant was in reference to Golden Dawn. Regardless, it's a politics thread so yeah I'm absolutely going to disagree with opposing political views here. It's kind of what this thread is for. And my open-mindedness was in reference to communists, who apparently are the same anyway, horrible dodge. Also you said voting for them didn't make sense, a little stronger than merely disagreeing. I think communism has historically been about as good for humanity as fascism. So if you want to convince me that voting communist is a good idea, good luck. Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you.
You may be taking the casual saying a bit too literal.
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United States43989 Posts
On January 14 2014 06:07 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:29 corumjhaelen wrote:
[quote]
And my open-mindedness was in reference to communists, who apparently are the same anyway, horrible dodge.
Also you said voting for them didn't make sense, a little stronger than merely disagreeing. I think communism has historically been about as good for humanity as fascism. So if you want to convince me that voting communist is a good idea, good luck. Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. What really matters more in this instance? The logical reality or the statistical reality?
The statistical reality is that the sample size is way too small, lacks control groups and can largely be explained by outside factors. Are you really trying to use a half dozen examples without any context to prove a point?
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Norway28797 Posts
I'd argue that Cuba has in many ways outperformed comparable latin american countries since turning communist, and this despite a trade and travel embargo with obvious detrimental effects on economic output.
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United States43989 Posts
On January 14 2014 06:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:29 corumjhaelen wrote:
[quote]
And my open-mindedness was in reference to communists, who apparently are the same anyway, horrible dodge.
Also you said voting for them didn't make sense, a little stronger than merely disagreeing. I think communism has historically been about as good for humanity as fascism. So if you want to convince me that voting communist is a good idea, good luck. Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. You may be taking the casual saying a bit too literal.
You're without an argument. The secret police, censorship, the autocratic ruler and political repression all existed in Russia before Lenin. If someone says "I'm a communist but I plan on creating a state different from Soviet Russia" you shouldn't automatically disbelieve them but instead ask if they plan on doing this in Russia in the early 20th Century while being an insane paranoid tyrant. If they do not there is no reason to conclude they're about to create Stalinist Russia and every reason to suspect they're not, after all, they say they're not and as we've established not everything you hear is automatically a lie just because you heard it.
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On January 14 2014 06:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 06:07 xDaunt wrote:On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
I think communism has historically been about as good for humanity as fascism. So if you want to convince me that voting communist is a good idea, good luck. Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. What really matters more in this instance? The logical reality or the statistical reality? The statistical reality is that the sample size is way too small, lacks control groups and can largely be explained by outside factors. Are you really trying to use a half dozen examples without any context to prove a point?
I guess you're willing to give National Socialism another go, too, then?
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On January 14 2014 06:15 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 06:10 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 06:07 xDaunt wrote:On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:
[quote]
Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. What really matters more in this instance? The logical reality or the statistical reality? The statistical reality is that the sample size is way too small, lacks control groups and can largely be explained by outside factors. Are you really trying to use a half dozen examples without any context to prove a point? I guess you're willing to give National Socialism another go, too, then?
You have no idea what you are talking about.
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This is why I've all but given up on this thread
kwark you can't convince americans of this, all communist regimes in history are direct manifestations of doctrine of Saint Marx, on earth as it is in heaven, instituted in a historical vacuum
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United States43989 Posts
On January 14 2014 06:15 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 06:10 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 06:07 xDaunt wrote:On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:
[quote]
Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. What really matters more in this instance? The logical reality or the statistical reality? The statistical reality is that the sample size is way too small, lacks control groups and can largely be explained by outside factors. Are you really trying to use a half dozen examples without any context to prove a point? I guess you're willing to give National Socialism another go, too, then?
If they said "we'll do it without the xenophobia, the invading Poland, the persecution of minorities and the creation of a dictatorship" then I wouldn't go "well, I heard you say it and all sounds are lies". Now maybe some of those things are intrinsically linked to national socialism but the traits of Stalinism are not intrinsically linked to communism, indeed they generally predate communist rule.
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On January 14 2014 06:15 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 06:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
I think communism has historically been about as good for humanity as fascism. So if you want to convince me that voting communist is a good idea, good luck. Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. You may be taking the casual saying a bit too literal. You're without an argument. The secret police, censorship, the autocratic ruler and political repression all existed in Russia before Lenin. If someone says "I'm a communist but I plan on creating a state different from Soviet Russia" you shouldn't automatically disbelieve them but instead ask if they plan on doing this in Russia in the early 20th Century while being an insane paranoid tyrant. If they do not there is no reason to conclude they're about to create Stalinist Russia and every reason to suspect they're not, after all, they say they're not and as we've established not everything you hear is automatically a lie just because you heard it.
As I also said, I've had discussions on this thread and others that ultimately lead me to believe that their views would wind up going down the same path as well.
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On January 14 2014 06:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 06:15 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 06:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:
[quote]
Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. You may be taking the casual saying a bit too literal. You're without an argument. The secret police, censorship, the autocratic ruler and political repression all existed in Russia before Lenin. If someone says "I'm a communist but I plan on creating a state different from Soviet Russia" you shouldn't automatically disbelieve them but instead ask if they plan on doing this in Russia in the early 20th Century while being an insane paranoid tyrant. If they do not there is no reason to conclude they're about to create Stalinist Russia and every reason to suspect they're not, after all, they say they're not and as we've established not everything you hear is automatically a lie just because you heard it. As I also said, I've had discussions on this thread and others that ultimately lead me to believe that their views would wind up going down the same path as well.
that's because don't listen to what anybody says, and just believe what you believed already, based on your dispassionate analysis of beliefs that your interlocutors don't actually hold. don't pretend to be reasonable, it doesn't become you
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The Western European communist are just helpless nowadays... they are annoying but everyone knows that they are a joke. The few remaining factory workers usually prefer to vote for the extreme right lol.
Back in the day they were ready to die for their (stupid) ideas. They were determined and scary. Nowadays it's all about the posturing.
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United States43989 Posts
On January 14 2014 06:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 06:15 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 06:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:39 corumjhaelen wrote:
[quote]
Communism = stalinism, yeah I know. "This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. You may be taking the casual saying a bit too literal. You're without an argument. The secret police, censorship, the autocratic ruler and political repression all existed in Russia before Lenin. If someone says "I'm a communist but I plan on creating a state different from Soviet Russia" you shouldn't automatically disbelieve them but instead ask if they plan on doing this in Russia in the early 20th Century while being an insane paranoid tyrant. If they do not there is no reason to conclude they're about to create Stalinist Russia and every reason to suspect they're not, after all, they say they're not and as we've established not everything you hear is automatically a lie just because you heard it. As I also said, I've had discussions on this thread and others that ultimately lead me to believe that their views would wind up going down the same path as well.
Yes, and you believing something isn't actually evidence of it being the case. You were asked for examples of why you believe that all communists, no matter what they say, are Stalinists and you could do no better than "I believe everything I've heard before is a lie".
What makes it more silly is in this case the path you think they'll follow to become Stalin clearly didn't start with Lenin or Stalin.
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On January 14 2014 06:21 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 06:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 06:15 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 06:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
"This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. You may be taking the casual saying a bit too literal. You're without an argument. The secret police, censorship, the autocratic ruler and political repression all existed in Russia before Lenin. If someone says "I'm a communist but I plan on creating a state different from Soviet Russia" you shouldn't automatically disbelieve them but instead ask if they plan on doing this in Russia in the early 20th Century while being an insane paranoid tyrant. If they do not there is no reason to conclude they're about to create Stalinist Russia and every reason to suspect they're not, after all, they say they're not and as we've established not everything you hear is automatically a lie just because you heard it. As I also said, I've had discussions on this thread and others that ultimately lead me to believe that their views would wind up going down the same path as well. that's because don't listen to what anybody says, and just believe what you believed already, based on your dispassionate analysis of beliefs that your interlocutors don't actually hold. don't pretend to be reasonable, it doesn't become you
No, I listened, asked questions and then got insulted whenever you couldn't answer.
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Agents of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration and the U.S. attorney's office have met in secret with members of Mexican drug cartels in exchange for information on rival drug organizations, a new extensive investigative report by Mexico's El Universal newspaper startlingly concludes.
According to the report, U.S. agents held more than 50 secret meetings with cartel operatives on Mexican territory between 2000 and 2012 -- without informing Mexican authorities.
Source
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On January 14 2014 06:18 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 06:15 xDaunt wrote:On January 14 2014 06:10 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 06:07 xDaunt wrote:On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
"This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. What really matters more in this instance? The logical reality or the statistical reality? The statistical reality is that the sample size is way too small, lacks control groups and can largely be explained by outside factors. Are you really trying to use a half dozen examples without any context to prove a point? I guess you're willing to give National Socialism another go, too, then? If they said "we'll do it without the xenophobia, the invading Poland, the persecution of minorities and the creation of a dictatorship" then I wouldn't go "well, I heard you say it and all sounds are lies". Now maybe some of those things are intrinsically linked to national socialism but the traits of Stalinism are not intrinsically linked to communism, indeed they generally predate communist rule.
I'm just talking off-the-cuff here, but it seems to me that inherent to any communist regime is a need to disregard the rule of law (the "revolution") so as to effect communist policy on the rubble of the previous system. How else do you get a communist redistribution of wealth and power without trampling the rights of those at the top (and the middle, and pretty much everyone else to one degree or another, but I digress...)? I know that it's rather cute to say that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," but there is no communism without the wielding of that absolute power that stretches beyond the confines of traditional law. The inherent danger there is obvious.
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On January 14 2014 06:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 06:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 06:15 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 06:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:58 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:52 KwarK wrote:On January 14 2014 05:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 14 2014 05:43 corumjhaelen wrote:On January 14 2014 05:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
"This time is different" = heard it before. Like when ? You know, I've (honestly) tried to engage with Marxists / Communists on this thread and others before and it keeps boiling down to the same thing - some nice theoretical ideas that have no substance. At the end of the day, to me, that looks too much like communism in Russia or China or some of the wacky-taffy policies going on in Venezuela today. So you've not actually heard "this time it's different" before and seen it shown to be wrong? You just believe that it won't be different and want to now use that belief as evidence that it's the same? People say "this time it's different" all the time, only for it to turn out the same. The burden of proof is on the guy saying that this time it'll be different. If they say it all the time then why could you not give an example of it when pressed. You argued that all Communists are basically Stalinists because anyone who says they're different has "been heard before" and everyone who has been heard before is a liar. This is not how logic works Jonny. You can't go "they must be the same because they claim to be different and all people who claim to be different turn out the same". The burden of proof is on you. You may be taking the casual saying a bit too literal. You're without an argument. The secret police, censorship, the autocratic ruler and political repression all existed in Russia before Lenin. If someone says "I'm a communist but I plan on creating a state different from Soviet Russia" you shouldn't automatically disbelieve them but instead ask if they plan on doing this in Russia in the early 20th Century while being an insane paranoid tyrant. If they do not there is no reason to conclude they're about to create Stalinist Russia and every reason to suspect they're not, after all, they say they're not and as we've established not everything you hear is automatically a lie just because you heard it. As I also said, I've had discussions on this thread and others that ultimately lead me to believe that their views would wind up going down the same path as well. Yes, and you believing something isn't actually evidence of it being the case. You were asked for examples of why you believe that all communists, no matter what they say, are Stalinists and you could do no better than "I believe everything I've heard before is a lie". What makes it more silly is in this case the path you think they'll follow to become Stalin clearly didn't start with Lenin or Stalin.
In a nutshell there's a black box between Marxist / Communist (if there's a preferred label let me know) economic theories and actual economic production that ties everything together and makes the economy work in the real world. My suspicion is that the black box is, ultimately, a totalitarian regime and until I hear a plausible alternative I'm sticking to my suspicion.
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EPT
