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On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting.
that seems highly implausible; near impossible I'd say (for the supreme court to enjoin congress from impeaching)
The Supreme court routinely punts cases of far less political consequences on technical grounds to avoid having to make hard decisions. There's no way they want any part of this mess and the fallout; and they have grounds enough to punt it all back on Congress, they'll take it.
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Missed Mccain. Did he actually have some sort of meltdown or did he just ask really partisan questions?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 09 2017 02:37 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
We already all know that Trump is shitty and terrible. What we really want to know is if he is a crook, a factor for which legal arguments are what really matter. Nah, he's a crook. The only factor in which legal arguments matter is whether or not he'll be punished for it by the law. And that's just a minor factor at that. Other factors include money/power/status.
I would reserve judgment on calling him a crook, really. He hasn't proven that he is yet. His retainers contain a lot of crooks, certainly, but I am not yet convinced that he himself is one as well. Nothing sufficiently concrete on him yet. He has the right to fire Comey for any reason or no reason, so that alone isn't reason enough.
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On June 09 2017 02:40 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting. that seems highly implausible; near impossible I'd say (for the supreme court to enjoin congress from impeaching) The Supreme court routinely punts cases of far less political consequences on technical grounds to avoid having to make hard decisions. There's no way they want any part of this mess and the fallout; and they have grounds enough to punt it all back on Congress, they'll take it.
You may want to revisit Bush v. Gore or any number of other seminal cases.
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On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting.
If that's the case, though, Trump would have been perfectly within his powers even if he said to Comey "Stop the Russia investigation or I'll fire you" and then fired him. And then did so for every other person he could fire, all while believing he was preventing justice from being carried out. Is that really the kind of world SCOTUS thinks makes sense given the Constitution?
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On June 09 2017 02:41 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:40 zlefin wrote:On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting. that seems highly implausible; near impossible I'd say (for the supreme court to enjoin congress from impeaching) The Supreme court routinely punts cases of far less political consequences on technical grounds to avoid having to make hard decisions. There's no way they want any part of this mess and the fallout; and they have grounds enough to punt it all back on Congress, they'll take it. You may want to revisit Bush v. Gore or any number of other seminal cases.
they do it if they REALLY have to and there's no good basis on which to punt; or if it's a case they really want to set law on. This is not a case to set interesting law on; and there IS a good basis to punt. And it's a horribly toxic case they'll want as little involvement in as possible. Bush v Gore there wasn't enough of a good basis on which to punt.
Especially on something as exceptional as an impeachment.
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On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting.
I seriously doubt any Supreme Court is going to overrule an impeachment vote from congress. Or set the limits on the trial in the senate. And to be honest, I don't think the Republicans would be comfortable asking them to set scope of the impeachment process.
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On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting.
Do Republicans consider seizing the opportunity to switch Trump for Pence? It would probably be an immediate loss in terms of public opinion but a win over the next few months. It's not sure this opportunity could happen again.
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On June 09 2017 02:41 biology]major wrote:
Missed Mccain. Did he actually have some sort of meltdown or did he just ask really partisan questions?
He just seemed out of it. Either age or he was just sick.
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On June 09 2017 02:43 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting. If that's the case, though, Trump would have been perfectly within his powers even if he said to Comey "Stop the Russia investigation or I'll fire you" and then fired him. And then did so for every other person he could fire. Is that really the kind of world SCOTUS thinks makes sense given the Constitution?
We have a saying in the legal world that "bad facts make for bad law." If Trump did something that was just so egregiously bad, even if it was constitutional, I can see the Supreme Court looking for an excuse to give Congress a political means to deal with it. I tend to think that they wouldn't. Remember Roberts' remarks in the Obamacare case: if you don't like what your politicians are doing, then the remedy is to vote them out of office when their terms are up.
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On June 09 2017 02:43 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:41 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:40 zlefin wrote:On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting. that seems highly implausible; near impossible I'd say (for the supreme court to enjoin congress from impeaching) The Supreme court routinely punts cases of far less political consequences on technical grounds to avoid having to make hard decisions. There's no way they want any part of this mess and the fallout; and they have grounds enough to punt it all back on Congress, they'll take it. You may want to revisit Bush v. Gore or any number of other seminal cases. they do it if they REALLY have to and there's no good basis on which to punt; or if it's a case they really want to set law on. This is not a case to set interesting law on; and there IS a good basis to punt. And it's a horribly toxic case they'll want as little involvement in as possible. Bush v Gore there wasn't enough of a good basis on which to punt. Especially on something as exceptional as an impeachment.
Are you kidding? If you really think that, then you know nothing about Constitutional law.
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On June 09 2017 02:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:41 biology]major wrote:
Missed Mccain. Did he actually have some sort of meltdown or did he just ask really partisan questions? He just seemed out of it. Either age or he was just sick.
Honestly I think it's just him tired of where we are at the moment, and how he is part of the party being lead by trump. Could also be age+ medical
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On June 09 2017 02:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:43 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting. If that's the case, though, Trump would have been perfectly within his powers even if he said to Comey "Stop the Russia investigation or I'll fire you" and then fired him. And then did so for every other person he could fire. Is that really the kind of world SCOTUS thinks makes sense given the Constitution? We have a saying in the legal world that "bad facts make for bad law." If Trump did something that was just so egregiously bad, even if it was constitutional, I can see the Supreme Court looking for an excuse to give Congress a political means to deal with it. I tend to think that they wouldn't. Remember Roberts' remarks in the Obamacare case: if you don't like what your politicians are doing, then the remedy is to vote them out of office when their terms are up.
But they never get to rule on if, when and why politicians can remove other politicians from office. I think they might punt that one back to congress and let the voters deal with the fall out at election.
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On June 09 2017 02:46 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:43 zlefin wrote:On June 09 2017 02:41 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:40 zlefin wrote:On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting. that seems highly implausible; near impossible I'd say (for the supreme court to enjoin congress from impeaching) The Supreme court routinely punts cases of far less political consequences on technical grounds to avoid having to make hard decisions. There's no way they want any part of this mess and the fallout; and they have grounds enough to punt it all back on Congress, they'll take it. You may want to revisit Bush v. Gore or any number of other seminal cases. they do it if they REALLY have to and there's no good basis on which to punt; or if it's a case they really want to set law on. This is not a case to set interesting law on; and there IS a good basis to punt. And it's a horribly toxic case they'll want as little involvement in as possible. Bush v Gore there wasn't enough of a good basis on which to punt. Especially on something as exceptional as an impeachment. Are you kidding? If you really think that, then you know nothing about Constitutional law.
I know enough; and enough about the politics of the supreme court. You don't know enough abotu law either if you think the supreme court would seroiusly get in the mdidle of impeachment (excepting things so clear they can get an 8-1 or 9-0 ruling).
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That would depend on one's perspective; Bush v. Gore's holding was expressly limited to its factual circumstances, rendering the case "bad law" in the sense that it doesn't explain much outside of itself. One can pretty much assume that a Supreme Court Trump case would likely follow suit in its precedential self-limitation.
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Imagine how much trump hates Comey right now after he admitted he leaked his memos to the media in order to get a special counsel. Come on trump, take that phone back. You're a big boy.
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On June 09 2017 02:48 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:46 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:43 zlefin wrote:On June 09 2017 02:41 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:40 zlefin wrote:On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting. that seems highly implausible; near impossible I'd say (for the supreme court to enjoin congress from impeaching) The Supreme court routinely punts cases of far less political consequences on technical grounds to avoid having to make hard decisions. There's no way they want any part of this mess and the fallout; and they have grounds enough to punt it all back on Congress, they'll take it. You may want to revisit Bush v. Gore or any number of other seminal cases. they do it if they REALLY have to and there's no good basis on which to punt; or if it's a case they really want to set law on. This is not a case to set interesting law on; and there IS a good basis to punt. And it's a horribly toxic case they'll want as little involvement in as possible. Bush v Gore there wasn't enough of a good basis on which to punt. Especially on something as exceptional as an impeachment. Are you kidding? If you really think that, then you know nothing about Constitutional law. I know enough; and enough about the politics of the supreme court. You don't know enough abotu law either if you think the supreme court would seroiusly get in the mdidle of impeachment (excepting things so clear they can get an 8-1 or 9-0 ruling).
The single biggest issues that the Supreme Court gets to rule on concern the separation of powers and the relative authority of the three branches of government. This is a case that would immediately be on par with Marbury v. Madison and be mandatory reading in law schools. You're completely clueless to argue that this case would not set "interesting law." It doesn't get bigger than this.
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Longer vid, keep seeing people stating that it looks like dementia.
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On June 09 2017 02:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 02:45 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:43 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 09 2017 02:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 02:31 Plansix wrote:
So basically abuse of power isn't a settled area of law at this point? Trump is within his authority, which means he did not expressly break the law. And no case has been brought for abuse of that authority. So we have no base line if it will prevail. This may be correct. And I can see the Supreme Court handling this a lot of different ways. They may treat impeachment and the underlying act as purely political questions. I can also see them looking at the impeachment process on the merits and finding that, because Trump's acts were within his constitutional authority, that it is inappropriate, thereby enjoining Congress from acting. If that's the case, though, Trump would have been perfectly within his powers even if he said to Comey "Stop the Russia investigation or I'll fire you" and then fired him. And then did so for every other person he could fire. Is that really the kind of world SCOTUS thinks makes sense given the Constitution? We have a saying in the legal world that "bad facts make for bad law." If Trump did something that was just so egregiously bad, even if it was constitutional, I can see the Supreme Court looking for an excuse to give Congress a political means to deal with it. I tend to think that they wouldn't. Remember Roberts' remarks in the Obamacare case: if you don't like what your politicians are doing, then the remedy is to vote them out of office when their terms are up. But they never get to rule on if, when and why politicians can remove other politicians from office. I think they might punt that one back to congress and let the voters deal with the fall out at election.
Why not? Impeachment is a constitutional process, and we know from Marbury v. Madison that the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of the Constitution.
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EPT
