In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On May 31 2017 23:03 ticklishmusic wrote: trump is a fucking idiot. his own secretary of state who was head of exxon fucking mobil supports the paris accords.
I think the main issue is the clear picture that Trump's USA is not an ally or tradepartner that can be trusted, but he is still going to make all those great trade-deals, and create jobs, right?
That is exactly how international relationships work. If you blow up the deals made by the previous administration, of course the country will be more than happy to work with you again. Especially if your reasoning is “we are America and you need our market.” Because the US believes that people of other nations will respond well to strong arm tactics the US would never put up with.
To be fair, talking about nature conservation in the context of man-made climate change is a tad bit hypocritical. The planet as a whole couldn't care less about what temperature it is, unless it really gets out of bounds, which is still not an actual threat. Yes, many species and biotopes will take the bullet, but others will eventually replace them. The main victim of climate change will be humans themselves, with all those low-lying heavily populated areas and all those places where people live on the edge of famine and will fall in one as the climate shifts around.
I also fail to understand the idea that the Paris Accords will provide an economic boost. It's completely fake economy, as with many things we do nowadays in Europe: force some goals upon yourself and then work harder to reach them. Yes, it increases the amount of stuff made and thus the HDP, but only at the expense of more natural resources spent and more human labor spent.
Portland mayor urges federal government to revoke permit for ‘alt-right’ demonstration, on the theory that ‘hate speech is not protected’
From Mayor Ted Wheeler’s Facebook page (emphasis added):
On Friday three men Rick Best, Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, and Micah Fletcher stood up against bigotry and hatred. Two paid with their lives. A third was seriously injured.
Our community remains in shock and mourning. But we are also tremendously grateful to our heroes and their families for their selflessness and heroism. They will serve to inspire us to be the loving, courageous people we are meant to be.
As Mayor, I wanted to update you on a few developments:
1) I have reached out to all of the victims and their families, including the two women who were terrorized and subjected to such hatred and bigotry. I have offered my unconditional assistance and support, day or night.
2) I have confirmed that the City of Portland has NOT and will not issue any permits for the alt right events scheduled on June 4th or June 10th. The Federal government controls permitting for Shrunk Plaza, and it is my understanding that they have issued a permit for the event on June 4th.
3) I am calling on the federal government to IMMEDIATELY REVOKE the permit(s) they have issued for the June 4th event and to not issue a permit for June 10th. Our City is in mourning, our community’s anger is real, and the timing and subject of these events can only exacerbate an already difficult situation. [...]
The murders in Portland are, of course, appalling — but, no, the government may not deny permits for speech because it views the speech as promoting “bigotry or hatred,” whether toward Muslims, blacks, whites, police officers, capitalists or whomever else. Nor can the government impose viewpoint-based timeouts for speech after certain events. If a police officer is murdered by anti-police fanatics, for instance, that cannot justify canceling the permit for a rally at which people speak out against the police, at which some attendees may hate the police, and at which a few attendees may indeed support killing police officers.
On May 31 2017 23:15 zlefin wrote: so, what is the current legal status of the US on the paris accords? is it an unratified treaty?
See wouldn't it be nice if it had been brought before the Senate to ratify? Like the constitutional treaty power?
I never saw the sense of something so big and important but who cares about passing it through the separation of powers doctrine.
It would never have passed the senate. Trump doing this is pretty bad, but the only reason we are in this mess is how badly the GOP has dealt with the idea of climate change. 22 GOP senators wrote a letter to Trump asking him to pull out of the Paris deal.
On May 31 2017 21:34 LegalLord wrote: Rumor mill has it that Trump wants to ultimately leave the Paris Accords.
Fuck everything. Besides the environmental effect this is going to shit on US reputation in a much more concrete way than just words.
I don't think I've ever seen a post like this from you before...
One of my degrees is in chemical engineering and that gives some good perspective on exactly how shitty it can be when business decides not to give a rat's ass about the environment. I wouldn't even call myself an environmentalist, it's simply a "don't shit up the house we all live in" issue. Paris seems like a good attempt to try to reel it in. While it was obvious that everyone would try to cheat on it, I'm very not fond of such a blatant dismissal of it.
The silver lining is that it looks like Trump's only real ally in this bout is the outdated industries like coal that are desperately trying to survive their impending irrelevance. The multinationals seem to have seen the writing on the wall and pushed for it without being forced to by the US specifically.
We also didn't have all that much of a choice. Our other option for president was also pretty shitty on the environment, giving support for stupid shit like fracking. She clearly valued "strategic fuel independence" over not polluting the country. So it's not like we would have preserved the environment the other way around, we just would have been a bit more subtle about shitting on it.
I’ve never been big into economics and generally avoid getting to deep into the topic. But from the outside, I notice the term “false/fake economy” gets tossed around when governments attempt to direct their national economy in a specific direction. The “real economy” seems elusive, but I think it might be made up of whatever entrenched interests stand to lose under the directed economic growth.
And I know that governments are bad at managing economies. I’m not convinced that the business sector is much better at it.
On May 31 2017 23:15 zlefin wrote: so, what is the current legal status of the US on the paris accords? is it an unratified treaty?
See wouldn't it be nice if it had been brought before the Senate to ratify? Like the constitutional treaty power?
I never saw the sense of something so big and important but who cares about passing it through the separation of powers doctrine.
It would never have passed the senate. Trump doing this is pretty bad, but the only reason we are in this mess is how badly the GOP has dealt with the idea of climate change. 22 GOP senators wrote a letter to Trump asking him to pull out of the Paris deal.
Well, better luck with supermajorities in the Senate next time. Article II treaties are a wee bit more resilient to a single bad president.
Portland mayor urges federal government to revoke permit for ‘alt-right’ demonstration, on the theory that ‘hate speech is not protected’
From Mayor Ted Wheeler’s Facebook page (emphasis added):
On Friday three men Rick Best, Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, and Micah Fletcher stood up against bigotry and hatred. Two paid with their lives. A third was seriously injured.
Our community remains in shock and mourning. But we are also tremendously grateful to our heroes and their families for their selflessness and heroism. They will serve to inspire us to be the loving, courageous people we are meant to be.
As Mayor, I wanted to update you on a few developments:
1) I have reached out to all of the victims and their families, including the two women who were terrorized and subjected to such hatred and bigotry. I have offered my unconditional assistance and support, day or night.
2) I have confirmed that the City of Portland has NOT and will not issue any permits for the alt right events scheduled on June 4th or June 10th. The Federal government controls permitting for Shrunk Plaza, and it is my understanding that they have issued a permit for the event on June 4th.
3) I am calling on the federal government to IMMEDIATELY REVOKE the permit(s) they have issued for the June 4th event and to not issue a permit for June 10th. Our City is in mourning, our community’s anger is real, and the timing and subject of these events can only exacerbate an already difficult situation. [...]
The murders in Portland are, of course, appalling — but, no, the government may not deny permits for speech because it views the speech as promoting “bigotry or hatred,” whether toward Muslims, blacks, whites, police officers, capitalists or whomever else. Nor can the government impose viewpoint-based timeouts for speech after certain events. If a police officer is murdered by anti-police fanatics, for instance, that cannot justify canceling the permit for a rally at which people speak out against the police, at which some attendees may hate the police, and at which a few attendees may indeed support killing police officers.
The city had a murder and attempted murder by a white supremacist and now the murder’s buddies want to hold a march supporting those views. Man, I can’t think why the Mayor would want to avoid the conflict that will result from that march taking place. That thing ends in riot gear and tear gas.
On May 31 2017 23:15 zlefin wrote: so, what is the current legal status of the US on the paris accords? is it an unratified treaty?
See wouldn't it be nice if it had been brought before the Senate to ratify?
The United States never ratifies anything remotely related to human rights.
The US has not ratified any international human rights treaties since December 2002, when it ratified two optional protocols to the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Since that time, important new treaties have been adopted and other long-standing treaties have gained new member states. Unfortunately, the US has too often remained outside these efforts. For example, the US is the only country other than Somalia that has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the most widely and rapidly ratified human rights treaty in history. It is one of only seven countries-together with Iran, Nauru, Palau, Somalia, Sudan and Tonga- that has failed to ratify the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW).
- Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW): signed, not ratified - Convention on the Rights of the Child: signed, not ratified - Convention against Enforced Disappearance: no action - Mine Ban Treaty: no action - Convention on Cluster Munitions: no action - Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities: no action - Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture: no action
Ah, the great land of freedom. Doesn't care about children, doesn't care about the environment that we all live in, doesn’t care about women, doesn't care about the use of mines, doesn't care about cluster munitions, doesn’t care about disabilities, doesn't care about torture.
It just cares about its own power, preventing itself from being held accountable and blaming Russia for everything.
Portland mayor urges federal government to revoke permit for ‘alt-right’ demonstration, on the theory that ‘hate speech is not protected’
From Mayor Ted Wheeler’s Facebook page (emphasis added):
On Friday three men Rick Best, Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, and Micah Fletcher stood up against bigotry and hatred. Two paid with their lives. A third was seriously injured.
Our community remains in shock and mourning. But we are also tremendously grateful to our heroes and their families for their selflessness and heroism. They will serve to inspire us to be the loving, courageous people we are meant to be.
As Mayor, I wanted to update you on a few developments:
1) I have reached out to all of the victims and their families, including the two women who were terrorized and subjected to such hatred and bigotry. I have offered my unconditional assistance and support, day or night.
2) I have confirmed that the City of Portland has NOT and will not issue any permits for the alt right events scheduled on June 4th or June 10th. The Federal government controls permitting for Shrunk Plaza, and it is my understanding that they have issued a permit for the event on June 4th.
3) I am calling on the federal government to IMMEDIATELY REVOKE the permit(s) they have issued for the June 4th event and to not issue a permit for June 10th. Our City is in mourning, our community’s anger is real, and the timing and subject of these events can only exacerbate an already difficult situation. [...]
The murders in Portland are, of course, appalling — but, no, the government may not deny permits for speech because it views the speech as promoting “bigotry or hatred,” whether toward Muslims, blacks, whites, police officers, capitalists or whomever else. Nor can the government impose viewpoint-based timeouts for speech after certain events. If a police officer is murdered by anti-police fanatics, for instance, that cannot justify canceling the permit for a rally at which people speak out against the police, at which some attendees may hate the police, and at which a few attendees may indeed support killing police officers.
The city had a murder and attempted murder by a white supremacist and now the murder’s buddies want to hold a march supporting those views. Man, I can’t think why the Mayor would want to avoid the conflict that will result from that march taking place. That thing ends in riot gear and tear gas.
It's also so damn insensitive to carry homophobic signs at a military funeral...
If the first amendment rests on one murder, it would've been as worthless as Trump's tweet last night. And to think liberals used to stand for civil rights, it's actually the best irony here.
People think that Donald Trump is this gigantic annoying and hypocritical manchild that we all have to deal with because of the balance of power in the world. Truth is that the US as an entity is not far from the same. Europeans always find it hard to believe how Trump managed to get elected; truth is that he isn't all that far outside the American norm.
Part of that manifests in the "fuck international cooperation" approach to all matters inconvenient to US interests. Woe to Europeans who saw Obama as some sign that the US was changing.
The US has not ratified any international human rights treaties since December 2002, when it ratified two optional protocols to the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Since that time, important new treaties have been adopted and other long-standing treaties have gained new member states. Unfortunately, the US has too often remained outside these efforts. For example, the US is the only country other than Somalia that has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the most widely and rapidly ratified human rights treaty in history. It is one of only seven countries-together with Iran, Nauru, Palau, Somalia, Sudan and Tonga- that has failed to ratify the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW).
- Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW): signed, not ratified - Convention on the Rights of the Child: signed, not ratified - Convention against Enforced Disappearance: no action - Mine Ban Treaty: no action - Convention on Cluster Munitions: no action - Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities: no action - Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture: no action
Ah, the great land of freedom. Doesn't care about children, doesn't care about the environment that we all live in, doesn’t care about women, doesn't care about the use of mines, doesn't care about cluster munitions, doesn’t care about disabilities, doesn't care about torture.
It just cares about its own power, preventing itself from being held accountable and blaming Russia for everything.
If it's more directed at signaling a pace of future action, like the many virtue signallers I run into, then have at it. If this is important and effective and all the things I've heard in in the coffee shops of Hollywood, then you're making these treaties out of sand.
On May 31 2017 23:15 zlefin wrote: so, what is the current legal status of the US on the paris accords? is it an unratified treaty?
See wouldn't it be nice if it had been brought before the Senate to ratify?
The United States never ratifies anything remotely related to human rights.
The US has not ratified any international human rights treaties since December 2002, when it ratified two optional protocols to the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Since that time, important new treaties have been adopted and other long-standing treaties have gained new member states. Unfortunately, the US has too often remained outside these efforts. For example, the US is the only country other than Somalia that has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the most widely and rapidly ratified human rights treaty in history. It is one of only seven countries-together with Iran, Nauru, Palau, Somalia, Sudan and Tonga- that has failed to ratify the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW).
- Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW): signed, not ratified - Convention on the Rights of the Child: signed, not ratified - Convention against Enforced Disappearance: no action - Mine Ban Treaty: no action - Convention on Cluster Munitions: no action - Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities: no action - Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture: no action
Ah, the great land of freedom. Doesn't care about children, doesn't care about the environment that we all live in, doesn’t care about women, doesn't care about the use of mines, doesn't care about cluster munitions, doesn’t care about disabilities, doesn't care about torture.
It just cares about its own power, preventing itself from being held accountable and blaming Russia for everything.
If it's more directed at signaling a pace of future action, like the many virtue signallers I run into, then have at it. If this is important and effective and all the things I've heard in in the coffee shops of Hollywood, then you're making these treaties out of sand.
Edit: Shout out to climate "human rights" crowd.
It's true that Europeans can often be holier-than-thou hypocrites on matters of international importance. But that doesn't mean that the US should be more blatantly shitty about it. Two hypocrisies don't make a right.
On May 31 2017 23:15 zlefin wrote: so, what is the current legal status of the US on the paris accords? is it an unratified treaty?
See wouldn't it be nice if it had been brought before the Senate to ratify?
The United States never ratifies anything remotely related to human rights.
The US has not ratified any international human rights treaties since December 2002, when it ratified two optional protocols to the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Since that time, important new treaties have been adopted and other long-standing treaties have gained new member states. Unfortunately, the US has too often remained outside these efforts. For example, the US is the only country other than Somalia that has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the most widely and rapidly ratified human rights treaty in history. It is one of only seven countries-together with Iran, Nauru, Palau, Somalia, Sudan and Tonga- that has failed to ratify the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW).
- Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW): signed, not ratified - Convention on the Rights of the Child: signed, not ratified - Convention against Enforced Disappearance: no action - Mine Ban Treaty: no action - Convention on Cluster Munitions: no action - Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities: no action - Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture: no action
Ah, the great land of freedom. Doesn't care about children, doesn't care about the environment that we all live in, doesn’t care about women, doesn't care about the use of mines, doesn't care about cluster munitions, doesn’t care about disabilities, doesn't care about torture.
It just cares about its own power, preventing itself from being held accountable and blaming Russia for everything.
If it's more directed at signaling a pace of future action, like the many virtue signallers I run into, then have at it. If this is important and effective and all the things I've heard in in the coffee shops of Hollywood, then you're making these treaties out of sand.
Edit: Shout out to climate "human rights" crowd.
I don't know what you're on about with virtue signalling. This is about being held accountable at an international level. The US has repeatedly shown it considers itself to be above international law, and won't ratify any conventions or treaties that may result in it being held accountable for its actions.
Portland mayor urges federal government to revoke permit for ‘alt-right’ demonstration, on the theory that ‘hate speech is not protected’
From Mayor Ted Wheeler’s Facebook page (emphasis added):
On Friday three men Rick Best, Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, and Micah Fletcher stood up against bigotry and hatred. Two paid with their lives. A third was seriously injured.
Our community remains in shock and mourning. But we are also tremendously grateful to our heroes and their families for their selflessness and heroism. They will serve to inspire us to be the loving, courageous people we are meant to be.
As Mayor, I wanted to update you on a few developments:
1) I have reached out to all of the victims and their families, including the two women who were terrorized and subjected to such hatred and bigotry. I have offered my unconditional assistance and support, day or night.
2) I have confirmed that the City of Portland has NOT and will not issue any permits for the alt right events scheduled on June 4th or June 10th. The Federal government controls permitting for Shrunk Plaza, and it is my understanding that they have issued a permit for the event on June 4th.
3) I am calling on the federal government to IMMEDIATELY REVOKE the permit(s) they have issued for the June 4th event and to not issue a permit for June 10th. Our City is in mourning, our community’s anger is real, and the timing and subject of these events can only exacerbate an already difficult situation. [...]
The murders in Portland are, of course, appalling — but, no, the government may not deny permits for speech because it views the speech as promoting “bigotry or hatred,” whether toward Muslims, blacks, whites, police officers, capitalists or whomever else. Nor can the government impose viewpoint-based timeouts for speech after certain events. If a police officer is murdered by anti-police fanatics, for instance, that cannot justify canceling the permit for a rally at which people speak out against the police, at which some attendees may hate the police, and at which a few attendees may indeed support killing police officers.
The city had a murder and attempted murder by a white supremacist and now the murder’s buddies want to hold a march supporting those views. Man, I can’t think why the Mayor would want to avoid the conflict that will result from that march taking place. That thing ends in riot gear and tear gas.
Portland mayor urges federal government to revoke permit for ‘alt-right’ demonstration, on the theory that ‘hate speech is not protected’
From Mayor Ted Wheeler’s Facebook page (emphasis added):
On Friday three men Rick Best, Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, and Micah Fletcher stood up against bigotry and hatred. Two paid with their lives. A third was seriously injured.
Our community remains in shock and mourning. But we are also tremendously grateful to our heroes and their families for their selflessness and heroism. They will serve to inspire us to be the loving, courageous people we are meant to be.
As Mayor, I wanted to update you on a few developments:
1) I have reached out to all of the victims and their families, including the two women who were terrorized and subjected to such hatred and bigotry. I have offered my unconditional assistance and support, day or night.
2) I have confirmed that the City of Portland has NOT and will not issue any permits for the alt right events scheduled on June 4th or June 10th. The Federal government controls permitting for Shrunk Plaza, and it is my understanding that they have issued a permit for the event on June 4th.
3) I am calling on the federal government to IMMEDIATELY REVOKE the permit(s) they have issued for the June 4th event and to not issue a permit for June 10th. Our City is in mourning, our community’s anger is real, and the timing and subject of these events can only exacerbate an already difficult situation. [...]
The murders in Portland are, of course, appalling — but, no, the government may not deny permits for speech because it views the speech as promoting “bigotry or hatred,” whether toward Muslims, blacks, whites, police officers, capitalists or whomever else. Nor can the government impose viewpoint-based timeouts for speech after certain events. If a police officer is murdered by anti-police fanatics, for instance, that cannot justify canceling the permit for a rally at which people speak out against the police, at which some attendees may hate the police, and at which a few attendees may indeed support killing police officers.
The city had a murder and attempted murder by a white supremacist and now the murder’s buddies want to hold a march supporting those views. Man, I can’t think why the Mayor would want to avoid the conflict that will result from that march taking place. That thing ends in riot gear and tear gas.
That guy is absolutely right. He represents American patriotism in action very accurately: Fuck over anyone that doesn't see things your way. Use whatever means possible.
On May 31 2017 23:15 zlefin wrote: so, what is the current legal status of the US on the paris accords? is it an unratified treaty?
See wouldn't it be nice if it had been brought before the Senate to ratify?
The United States never ratifies anything remotely related to human rights.
The US has not ratified any international human rights treaties since December 2002, when it ratified two optional protocols to the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Since that time, important new treaties have been adopted and other long-standing treaties have gained new member states. Unfortunately, the US has too often remained outside these efforts. For example, the US is the only country other than Somalia that has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the most widely and rapidly ratified human rights treaty in history. It is one of only seven countries-together with Iran, Nauru, Palau, Somalia, Sudan and Tonga- that has failed to ratify the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW).
- Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW): signed, not ratified - Convention on the Rights of the Child: signed, not ratified - Convention against Enforced Disappearance: no action - Mine Ban Treaty: no action - Convention on Cluster Munitions: no action - Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities: no action - Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture: no action
Ah, the great land of freedom. Doesn't care about children, doesn't care about the environment that we all live in, doesn’t care about women, doesn't care about the use of mines, doesn't care about cluster munitions, doesn’t care about disabilities, doesn't care about torture.
It just cares about its own power, preventing itself from being held accountable and blaming Russia for everything.
If it's more directed at signaling a pace of future action, like the many virtue signallers I run into, then have at it. If this is important and effective and all the things I've heard in in the coffee shops of Hollywood, then you're making these treaties out of sand.
Edit: Shout out to climate "human rights" crowd.
I don't know what you're on about with virtue signalling. This is about being held accountable at an international level. The US has repeatedly shown it considers itself to be above international law, and won't ratify any conventions or treaties that may result in it being held accountable for its actions.
virtue signalling is phrase that's become popular lately because it lets you dismiss any act of virtue. it allows certain people to convince themselves its okay to be assholes because, secretly, everyone is actually an asshole and they're actually better because they're honest about it.
EPT
