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Canada13400 Posts
On May 27 2017 03:51 Nevuk wrote:
It is totally possible for white people to appreciate other cultures without distorting them. Just not very plausible based on history. I'd classify the restaraunt owning as probably racist but pretty much harmless. There's way more important things to deal with on that front than something that doesn't actively hurt people.
I'd be more likely to complain about states having native american names than I would inappropriately labelled food. And I'm not very likely to care about the former either.
As with everything IMO it depends on how its being done.
I mean outback steakhouse is a terrible representation of Australia.
Nando's is a horrible representation of Portugal (where I'm from).
Some of the best steam buns I've ever eaten were made by a Pakistani guy who came with his parents to Canada when he was real young and who trained in the US and China. He makes great traditional steam buns and some killed fusion ones too.
If people really care about the food they make, and are actual chefs let them make their food regardless of where they come from.
As others have tried to say - appropriation is a complicated issue and theres a difference between appropriation (which would be done without any respect and with the intention of passing off as being 100% completely authentic) and respectful representation.
And in the world of racist activity there is way worse. Way way worse that should be the focus.
On May 27 2017 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 03:52 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 03:47 GreenHorizons wrote:White fragility is out in spades today. On May 27 2017 03:38 opisska wrote:
To me this seems like GH has some issues in his life and tries to use the color of his skin as an excuse for them and a free pass to be angry at people who happened to be born with light skin. And he somehow thinks that this is the right way to make things better, for no logical reason. I don't think there is not much room for rational argument with him. I wouldn't expect you to have any idea what any of this stuff means being in Poland. I understand how that could lead to such an opinion. What do you mean white fragility? You're outright calling white people imperialists who want to destroy every culture that isn't white (while at the same time saying white isn't a race) I hope you can step back for a second and actually think about this. I mean you say white isn't a race then you start painting every person with light skin with the same brush. I don't get it dude. Alright, so basically this? Show nested quote +White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates
them from race-based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection
builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering
the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as White Fragility.
White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes
intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include
the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such
as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors,
in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium. SourceNot all, but yes, white people are still very much acting in Imperialistic ways around the world. I'm basically always talking about white Americans when I say "white people" (It's the US politics thread) but sometimes it's equally apt beyond that qualifier. But of course there's a wide history of various white cultures from around the world. I'm with Baldwin on us desperately needing a white history month.
Ok but while I might have white/olive skin, I am a fist generation immigrant who grew up in a really low income area for the first half of my life.
Do you want me to tell you about how many times people have complained openly about immigrants etc etc and to me and then they find out I'm an immigrant. That moment of disconnect and surprise is where I see your whole white fragility comment. And I agree with it.
But the original point of the discussion was, again, boycotting restaurants purely based on the skin colour of the owner is wrong - full stop. With no additional context of why its considered appropriation it shouldnt be labelled as such.
And while I don't want to pretend I know what its like to live in the US as a racial minority, I do want to give you a tiny story about how ridiculous race issues are in the US as someone coming from Canada. Every time I enter the US everyone at the border is super nice. Until they get my CANADIAN mind you passport. They see my name.
Luis
Done. I'm now a potential mexican who wants to get in and never leave and be an illegal and as a result I get pulled aside and grilled about tons of things by the border agents. The complete 180 that I have experienced based solely on the spelling of my name has always thrown me for a loop. And I do not envy anyone living the US who is from a minority group. At all.
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On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies.
As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions.
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On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions.
As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is.
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Canada13400 Posts
On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is.
Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it.
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Honestly, people that look at the western world and act like it's the pinnacle of racism are pretty ignorant to the rest of the world.
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On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is.
Your race is not an excuse for constantly talking down to people or treating them like dirt. As people have pointed out in this thread many times, you hold reasonable political views and stances. It is your delivery and tone that make you sound like as asshole. And not even the fun type of asshole like Kwark who knows they are doing it.
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On May 27 2017 04:13 killa_robot wrote:
Honestly, people that look at the western world and act like it's the pinnacle of racism are pretty ignorant to the rest of the world.
I would say that the western world has done the most to inflict its racism on the rest of the world. By that specific metric, they are the leader in both reach and length of time.
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If there was any doubt, the speech made clear that Clinton will return to public life as the kind of outspoken activist who attended Wellesley 48 years ago, as opposed to the guarded and carefully scripted presidential candidate of 2016. And she did it all without mentioning Trump’s name. Clinton recently formed a new political nonprofit group called Onward Together intended to counter Trump and his policies
The speech took numerous swipes at the state of government, politics and civil discourse in the Trump era, including at a recently released Republican budget that included steep cuts to social safety net programs benefiting the poor, elderly and disabled. Clinton said the budget represents “unimaginable cruelty” and is “a con" because it uses accounting gimmicks. During recent testimony on Capitol Hill, White House Budget Director Mick Mulvaney seemed to deny that the budget contained Medicaid cuts, even as those cuts number hundreds of millions of dollars.
Source
In a corner of my mind, I feel that Hillary is setting up for a 2020 primary run. I hope to God it doesnt happen.
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On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it.
We are all racist. Racism isn’t a thing or a state of being, it is something you do. It is act. Once someone accept that, it is only a question of how they response when they find out they did something racist. Don’t view racism as some cartoon villain or something that damns you forever.
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On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it.
I'm not suggesting I'm making the highest and best argument. I never said "all white people are racist", but I know exactly why you think I did. That's white fragility.
I'm not making huge generalizations, or at least not unreasonable ones, like "Phoenix is hot".
I don't have to make the best possible argument about racism, and I'm not convinced white people have any idea what the best argument is anyway, seeing as how it's hundreds of years later and we're still dealing with this nonsense.
America isn't still racist because people haven't made good enough arguments against it, white Americans still do racist things because it's what America has always been and not enough of them think it should change. Has nothing to do with Black people not reasoning with them enough.
On May 27 2017 04:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Your race is not an excuse for constantly talking down to people or treating them like dirt. As people have pointed out in this thread many times, you hold reasonable political views and stances. It is your delivery and tone that make you sound like as asshole. And not even the fun type of asshole like Kwark who knows they are doing it.
ROFL I'm an "asshole" because we are being murdered, our rights abused, and more, sorry if some white feelings get hurt.
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On May 27 2017 03:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 03:31 Mohdoo wrote:On May 27 2017 03:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 03:17 Mohdoo wrote:On May 27 2017 03:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 03:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:On May 27 2017 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
No they are taking a culture that was likely discriminated against and abused, appropriating their food culture for profit, and often do a terrible job of recognizing the culture beyond "let's sell Mexican food, people expect Mariachi music right?"
It's low on my list personally, but to hear people cry of "hate-fueled discrimination" against white people, that's just hilarious. I generally favor your perspective on stuff like this and think it's interesting.. I'm not agreeing that this is 'hate-fueled discrimination against white people', and I can see how a white person making 'AUTHENTIC MEXICAN FOOD' and then serving tex-mex while playing Colombian music or whatever can be like, if not really offensive, then not entirely right. But if I'm a white guy and I think south east asian cuisine is just the best, can I not make a south east asian inspired restaurant because I'm white without it being cultural appropriation? Outrage over people from a certain ethnicity cooking food from another ethnicity just seems to be entirely against the idea of a non-racist society.. First, if the punishment for white imperialism was that they couldn't imitate other cultures food for their personal profit, that would be a pretty small price to pay. Setting that aside, sure, but don't think you can appropriate the food, without any regard for the culture. A white person giving a restaurant a Mexican name, calling it "authentic Mexican" then hiring a bunch of white people to make bland imitation burritos is offensive and POC are going to tell you whether white people want to hear it or not. Are you saying it is modern whites that are executing white imperialism? Are you saying opening a taco stand is similar to imperialism or something? Or are you saying that whites living today should be punished for what an earlier generation did? And you still haven't said what you are saying should happen instead. All you're saying is that culture needs to be respected and preserved, but its not like my home country has gone anywhere. It's just that people in the US are making restaurants based on food from my country. It's not remotely the same because, well, this is a totally different country. But if I went down South, I'd find plenty of totally authentic food. Why is it reasonable to expect places opened in the US would be true impressions of foreign food and only operated by foreign people? Let me help separate this for you, I'm not necessarily defending the particular thing happening in Oregon, but appropriating food is a common, real, and offensive practice. I am punished every day because white people still can't get over the fact that they enslaved people who looked like me. I don't really care if they don't get to appropriate cultures for their own profit without people demonstrating that they don't like it. Or that white people are "being punished for ancestors sins", like gtf over yourselves. Yes white imperialism is a modern practice, though I don't think appropriating a culture for a restaurant is very high on the list of problematic examples of the expansion of white imperialism. It sounds like you are viewing this in a really distorted way. You are saying that you don't have a problem with these women being victimized because white people as a whole still have a glowing history. That's messed up. You are telling people to "get over yourselves" as if they aren't in a position to complain. All you are saying is that its offensive. You aren't explaining why or how or anything. You aren't even saying what you think should happen. All you are doing is finding an example of white people in particular being targeted, saying "yeah right, as if you live a crappy life or something" and leaving it at that. I have managed just fine, despite my ancestry and despite Portland's troubled past. Overall, it feels like you let history distort your views of what is right and wrong current day. You carry the burden of "being punished" and use that as a reason to pretend there is some kind of struggle to see who gets screwed over the least, as if white people have had it so good for so long that it is not a big deal if they end up screwed over in some other way. How is my culture damaged when a white person opens a restaurant with my country's food served in a US-appropriate way? I'm saying these restaurant owners (the one's I'm describing, not just any white owned restaurant) don't give a shit about the discrimination in this country, except when they experience it, fuck people like that. Of course if someone is working hard and doing a good job and serving food that's appropriately prepared and presented (don't call it something it's not) people shouldn't go out of their way to punish them as collateral damage. But we are literally murdering children as "collateral damage" for some pretty twisted reasons, the restaurant owners and most of the people trying to defend them spend more time getting in a hissy about this than those kids. What is your culture anyway? And do you pass for white?
You keep focusing on the name and how it is prepared. Is your issue the wording? If I called my Korean restaurant "Food inspired by Korean cuisine", would that be a more acceptable title? Or is it still wrong to be running a business that serves food from a culture that has suffered over time more than my own? What is necessary for someone to open a Mexican restaurant without being ethically bad?
I'm Peruvian. I'm racially ambiguous to a lot of people because I have a big nose. So people aren't sure if I am Hispanic or Middle Eastern. Most people assume I am middle eastern. Strangely, Iranian people and Hispanic people both treat me as comrades in passing. My skin has gotten lighter since moving to Oregon. When I first moved to Oregon, my 5th grade class thought I was black. I do not look remotely black at this point, but most people can fairly easily conclude I am definitely not white.
Also, for the record, I totally know that blacks face a lot worse shit than Hispanics. You've got it worse than me for sure, not trying to deny that.
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Canada13400 Posts
On May 27 2017 04:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:13 killa_robot wrote:
Honestly, people that look at the western world and act like it's the pinnacle of racism are pretty ignorant to the rest of the world. I would say that the western world has done the most to inflict its racism on the rest of the world. By that specific metric, they are the leader in both reach and length of time.
Maybe in reach with regards to sheer distance of the globe its happened to sure.
But lets not pretend we arent in our own bubble on this topic.
I mean tribalism in other parts of the world has resulted in a lot of horrible genocides based on plot of land or language.
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On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is.
And I love having actual discussions with people to broaden my understanding on the issue, because it's something deeply ingrained in the US, even now. But I can't have a discussion with you if you go into it assuming I am the evil white man, and that viciously attacking my skin color is the answer to all your problems. That's when I walk away.
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On May 27 2017 04:19 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:15 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:13 killa_robot wrote:
Honestly, people that look at the western world and act like it's the pinnacle of racism are pretty ignorant to the rest of the world. I would say that the western world has done the most to inflict its racism on the rest of the world. By that specific metric, they are the leader in both reach and length of time. Maybe in reach with regards to sheer distance of the globe its happened to sure. But lets not pretend we arent in our own bubble on this topic. I mean tribalism in other parts of the world has resulted in a lot of horrible genocides based on plot of land or language.
Personally I am only concerned with how shitty my culture is to other races. Who is the worst isn’t really a thing I will care about or will impact my actions.
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On May 27 2017 04:21 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. And I love having actual discussions with people to broaden my understanding on the issue, because it's something deeply ingrained in the US, even now. But I can't have a discussion with you if you go into it assuming I am the evil white man, and that viciously attacking my skin color is the answer to all your problems. That's when I walk away.
^ This is white fragility.
I don't assume you're an evil white man. Your skin color is not the answer to all of my problems. I never said anything to the sort.
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Norway28743 Posts
On May 27 2017 03:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 03:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:On May 27 2017 03:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 03:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:On May 27 2017 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
No they are taking a culture that was likely discriminated against and abused, appropriating their food culture for profit, and often do a terrible job of recognizing the culture beyond "let's sell Mexican food, people expect Mariachi music right?"
It's low on my list personally, but to hear people cry of "hate-fueled discrimination" against white people, that's just hilarious. I generally favor your perspective on stuff like this and think it's interesting.. I'm not agreeing that this is 'hate-fueled discrimination against white people', and I can see how a white person making 'AUTHENTIC MEXICAN FOOD' and then serving tex-mex while playing Colombian music or whatever can be like, if not really offensive, then not entirely right. But if I'm a white guy and I think south east asian cuisine is just the best, can I not make a south east asian inspired restaurant because I'm white without it being cultural appropriation? Outrage over people from a certain ethnicity cooking food from another ethnicity just seems to be entirely against the idea of a non-racist society.. First, if the punishment for white imperialism was that they couldn't imitate other cultures food for their personal profit, that would be a pretty small price to pay. Setting that aside, sure, but don't think you can appropriate the food, without any regard for the culture. A white person giving a restaurant a Mexican name, calling it "authentic Mexican" then hiring a bunch of white people to make bland imitation burritos is offensive and POC are going to tell you whether white people want to hear it or not. But what if I make really really awesome and genuine mexican food? What if I don't have any sombreros or cactuses or whatever other stuff white people associate with mexico in the restaurant, I just really love tomatillo salsa and stuff? It's just, I'm all for recognizing that imperialism gave white people huge advantages and I'm all for reversing those. I'd vote for the Norwegian party that pledged to give 10% of GDP to development aid in a heartbeat. But this particular thing is one of those, dude, I am by no means responsible for imperialism. Saying that white people can't make mexican food is like saying black people can't make pizza. And sure, I can see how the 'authentic' brand shouldn't be used by people who make inauthentic food, but I just don't see how ethnicity should be what defines this. If a white person lived in mexico for 20 years and makes the best mexican food in a city, isn't that just great? The best, most authentic japanese restaurant in sweden is created by some who spent years working in a fancy japanese restaurant in spain.. I regularly mention how as a Black american I and many others of us live in a lingering fear about whether today is the day we're one of the countless black Americans who is going to have their constitutional rights stripped, be abused by the people we pay to protect us, be discriminated for my skin at jobs, restaurants, hotels, the ballot box, etc... Does that give you any idea how all this hub bub about white people being able to sell whatever cultures food is absurd to me? That being said, I said sure, just take some time to be appreciative (beyond you're taste buds) for the culture you're taking it from. It's the least you could do.
I see these as completely separate issues. I also recognize that your issue is of far greater importance, but we're allowed to care about issues other than the one most important issue there is. It's not like this is causing particularly great outrage either, I consider it idiotic, not necessarily consequential.
That we should be appreciative of the culture we're 'taking' the food from is generally something that happens much easier after having enjoyed something from that culture, e.g. food.. So the goal of increased cultural appreciation is more likely to happen if people aren't told 'you're not allowed to make this because it belongs to a culture you weren't born into'... If that's your goal, you should definitely be opposed to stuff like this.
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On May 27 2017 04:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it. We are all racist. Racism isn’t a thing or a state of being, it is something you do. It is act. Once someone accept that, it is only a question of how they response when they find out they did something racist. Don’t view racism as some cartoon villain or something that damns you forever.
Nope.
Sorry I can't stand this line of reasoning. The KKK are racist, I'm not racist. There may be some institutional racism at the base of the society which I am a part of, that doesn't make me racist.
To minimize racism as just a thing that we all have, like a nipple, is completely missing the point. Its one way in which the modern hard left has taken something which had meaning for everyone and reinterpreted it because they want to push their agenda further.
If you want to see racism, read the testimony of black people 60-100 years ago. That's racism. To redefine it in terms of microaggressions (which it seems to me you're trying to do) is to completely ignore the progress that's been made in this area. You can't just redefine the world in terms that fit your agenda.
"We are all racist."
Original sin is a religious idea which seeks to control people into joining them. You are a sinner, but behave as I tell you and you will be redeemed. Its reprehensible.
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On May 27 2017 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:21 NewSunshine wrote:On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. And I love having actual discussions with people to broaden my understanding on the issue, because it's something deeply ingrained in the US, even now. But I can't have a discussion with you if you go into it assuming I am the evil white man, and that viciously attacking my skin color is the answer to all your problems. That's when I walk away. ^ This is white fragility. I don't assume you're an evil white man. Your skin color is not the answer to all of my problems. I never said anything to the sort.
And all I ever talked about is why the sharing of culture through food is a wonderful thing, and should not be tainted with identity politics. I tried to have reasonable discussion with you, but it continually oscillates between being about white people and not being about white people. Figure out what your point is, figure out what you're really looking for in a discussion, and then come back.
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On May 27 2017 04:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:19 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 04:15 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:13 killa_robot wrote:
Honestly, people that look at the western world and act like it's the pinnacle of racism are pretty ignorant to the rest of the world. I would say that the western world has done the most to inflict its racism on the rest of the world. By that specific metric, they are the leader in both reach and length of time. Maybe in reach with regards to sheer distance of the globe its happened to sure. But lets not pretend we arent in our own bubble on this topic. I mean tribalism in other parts of the world has resulted in a lot of horrible genocides based on plot of land or language. Personally I am only concerned with how shitty my culture is to other races. Who is the worst isn’t really a thing I will care about or will impact my actions.
Don't really know what to say to this.. to each his own i guess. Personally i condemn any "shitty" action from any race or culture.
But then again i consider myself a "moderate".
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On May 27 2017 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:17 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it. We are all racist. Racism isn’t a thing or a state of being, it is something you do. It is act. Once someone accept that, it is only a question of how they response when they find out they did something racist. Don’t view racism as some cartoon villain or something that damns you forever. Nope. Sorry I can't stand this line of reasoning. The KKK are racist, I'm not racist. There may be some institutional racism at the base of the society which I am a part of, that doesn't make me racist. To minimize racism as just a thing that we all have, like a nipple, is completely missing the point. Its one way in which the modern hard left has taken something which had meaning for everyone and reinterpreted it because they want to push their agenda further. If you want to see racism, read the testimony of black people 60-100 years ago. That's racism. To redefine it in terms of microaggressions (which it seems to me you're trying to do) is to completely ignore the progress that's been made in this area. You can't just redefine the world in terms that fit your agenda. "We are all racist." Original sin is a religious idea which seeks to control people into joining them. You are a sinner, but behave as I tell you and you will be redeemed. Its reprehensible.
If you view racism at some level of cartoon villain, then you will never be able to address any problems of racism. Personally, I came from a small town of 900 people and never really knew a black person until I went to college. I said some pretty racist stuff during that time and believed some racist things.
I’m not a bad person or the devil. Or a member of the KKK. Don’t fear the word like it is some brand that scars you for life and follows you around until you die. It is just a thing humans do.
Seriously, if you want to address racism wherever you are in the world, don’t reduce it to the “KKK or Nazis and nothing else”.
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EPT
