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On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL
huh?
I've only been loosely following since it's not of much interest; it didn't seem to me that people were being that lenient with GH; looked like he was getting a lot of flak; and it is quite typical of GH's behavior. I also haven't seen anything that seemed ban-worthy from him on this issue (not that I've been looking close).
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On May 27 2017 05:01 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:57 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:41 biology]major wrote:On May 27 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:36 biology]major wrote:On May 27 2017 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 27 2017 04:17 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it. We are all racist. Racism isn’t a thing or a state of being, it is something you do. It is act. Once someone accept that, it is only a question of how they response when they find out they did something racist. Don’t view racism as some cartoon villain or something that damns you forever. Nope. Sorry I can't stand this line of reasoning. The KKK are racist, I'm not racist. There may be some institutional racism at the base of the society which I am a part of, that doesn't make me racist. To minimize racism as just a thing that we all have, like a nipple, is completely missing the point. Its one way in which the modern hard left has taken something which had meaning for everyone and reinterpreted it because they want to push their agenda further. If you want to see racism, read the testimony of black people 60-100 years ago. That's racism. To redefine it in terms of microaggressions (which it seems to me you're trying to do) is to completely ignore the progress that's been made in this area. You can't just redefine the world in terms that fit your agenda. "We are all racist." Original sin is a religious idea which seeks to control people into joining them. You are a sinner, but behave as I tell you and you will be redeemed. Its reprehensible. This is why we have Trump. People's thought processes are so fucking distorted and out of touch with reality, that they have to make up bs justifications and definitions in order to cope with god knows what. Either way, the last few pages of discussion are almost troll worthy. Starting with that petition against white owner's to GH's defense of it. This is a parody right guys? As far as Portland is concerned, it is a strange, shitty place. I was blessed to witness gross (think out of shape and wrinkly), naked people biking down the streets while in my Uber when I went there for a conference for a few days. There were weed shops inside the PSU college campus lol, people looked very different. Honestly couldn't tell if quite a few people were men or women. The complete inability for people to discuss or have any level of self reflection about racism is one of the reasons we have Trump. You are correct about that. It is very clear that our nation has a lot of work and long discussions in the coming decades. And I’m sure you will loath every minute of it. I would love to end actual racism, not your fantasy version. Why are you saddling me with cultural appropriation? I was one of the saying it was silly. Your inability to read posts and discern context is always a wonder. Good, glad you can see that is silly. I just remember having this discussion a while ago and you or someone else (prolly gh), was basically like you can't be racist against white people. Thats when you know someone has gone off the deepend. If you believe that, then yes you still have a fantasy version of racism in your mind. If you don't, then my bad.
Can you please take the time to read the thread? We literally had that discussion and the discussion about Racism, verse racism. Seriously, you would understand things a lot more if you took the time to read rather than just dumping your hot takes on our lap.
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On May 27 2017 05:01 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL huh? I've only been loosely following since it's not of much interest; it didn't seem to me that people were being that lenient with GH; looked like he was getting a lot of flak; and it is quite typical of GH's behavior. I also haven't seen anything that seemed ban-worthy from him on this issue (not that I've been looking close).
There was a few posts as i was writing that comment and some after that called him out on it a bit more. You should re read what he said, it was some pretty clear racism from his tone for me. He could of worded it a lot better as people have pointed out.
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I don't have the time or patience to differentiate between Racism, raycism, and racism. Neither does most of the population. Let's keep it simple
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On May 27 2017 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:17 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it. We are all racist. Racism isn’t a thing or a state of being, it is something you do. It is act. Once someone accept that, it is only a question of how they response when they find out they did something racist. Don’t view racism as some cartoon villain or something that damns you forever. Nope. Sorry I can't stand this line of reasoning. The KKK are racist, I'm not racist. There may be some institutional racism at the base of the society which I am a part of, that doesn't make me racist. To minimize racism as just a thing that we all have, like a nipple, is completely missing the point. Its one way in which the modern hard left has taken something which had meaning for everyone and reinterpreted it because they want to push their agenda further. If you want to see racism, read the testimony of black people 60-100 years ago. That's racism. To redefine it in terms of microaggressions (which it seems to me you're trying to do) is to completely ignore the progress that's been made in this area. You can't just redefine the world in terms that fit your agenda. "We are all racist." Original sin is a religious idea which seeks to control people into joining them. You are a sinner, but behave as I tell you and you will be redeemed. Its reprehensible.
You should not think of racism solely as a binary state ("someone is racist or not") but rather as a spectrum ranging from 0 to 100, with 0 being the fictional/ideal "no racism at all" and 100 the most extreme racist ideologies/representations/etc.
If you admit the existence of institutional racism in a given society, then the logical next step is to recognize that everyone who was socialized in this society is likely to have racist representations/stereotypes/etc. It doesn't make you a KKK member or an eternal sinner, simply someone who could not escape society (after all, you're only a child when you start being socialized to such stuff...).
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on the whole racism issue: a lot of it is ultimately a quibble over what exactly constitutes "racism"; and many (not all) of the people arguing would agree on what to do in response to an actual individual case. they'd just disagree over whether it's "racism"
I generally like to say we've largely beaten "racism"; but still have a lot of issues with "bias" and other subtler forms, often unconscious ones.
not that it's necessarily accurate; but it's sufficiently vaguely accurate, and it plays well to the center politically.
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On May 27 2017 05:06 biology]major wrote:
I don't have the time or patience to differentiate between Racism, raycism, and racism. Neither does most of the population. Let's keep it simple
Forgive us for not assuming the rest of humanity or this thread has this reductive opinion on the subject. If we use this thread as a metric, your assertion is completely incorrect.
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On May 27 2017 03:38 Wulfey_LA wrote:
What bothers me about this Oregon thing is that it will be on every single anti-SJW, conservative meme thread in the universe. I will be hearing about it all over twitter. But it is really double-digits worth of activists in one town being nuts. This story stinks of exactly the kind of anti-pluralism agitprop that rightists can latch onto in order to ignore real issues, like the Trump budget, AHCA, or Trump walking on our NATO commitments while sucking up to the Saudis.
To me, this is just hard identitarian lefties being the nuts they are. I don't think they matter and I ignore them. But these handful of identitiarians give all the cover in the world to shitbags like Crowder, OReilly, Hannity, all of the Sinclair broadcast empire, and FOX so that they can get their audience to focus on a handful of inconsequential (and wrong) activists instead of monumental issues at the federal level.
Have you been to Portland? Its somewhat fringe nationally, but Portland libs are pretty high on the far-left spectrum for cultural views. Even this somewhat small gaming forum has a defender.
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On May 27 2017 02:58 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 02:12 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 27 2017 02:08 Danglars wrote:On May 26 2017 21:49 Gorsameth wrote:On May 26 2017 21:35 Danglars wrote:On May 26 2017 17:17 Slaughter wrote:On May 26 2017 15:57 Danglars wrote:On May 26 2017 15:34 Slaughter wrote:
At least with Hillary she would have you know actually appointed people to work in the government and made a cabinet with competent people. Not to mention sticking it to the GOP members of congress with her supreme court pick and the ability to veto whatever stupid dumpster fire of ideas the GOP congress shits out. Seriously I don't have as big of problem with conservatism as I do with the utter clowns conservatives choose to represent them in congress. But maybe I should thank them because between them and Trump conservatism will probably lose a looot of respect the next few years since Democrats can't do anything to them that they aren't already doing to themselves. Better some clowns to cause a little havoc than a slick crew that oppose my interests! And hell, you said it buddy, sticking it to the Democrat members with his supreme court pick (RIP Garland). I can't think of a better successor to that suave Obama. Everybody's going so crazy and it's absolutely marvelous. He's doing such ludicrous stuff, but not to be outdone, the media sprinkles in three ridiculous accusations for every one solid. I'm trending below 50% agreement with what Trump does, for sure. But the Dems didn't run a Lieberman type, they gave me an unsatisfactory second choice. I'm having some trouble thinking up a likely Dem candidate I'd actually consider better than Trump for my political views. Political churning, at this point, is vastly preferable to a determined push leftward. I guess that is the difference between you and me. If Trump was the Democratic nominee I would have voted Republican despite the ideological differences. Trump is just that bad and it was obvious from his campaign. The difference between you and me is I think America's institutions, or what's worth preserving that's left of them, are resilient enough to last against one knucklehead. To some extent, the left's screwed the goose by investing too heavily in justifying some very bad shit by demonizing Trump. Bad enough to have partisan hacks leaking at every level of the executive, but particularly in the intelligence agencies? Fuck no. Bad enough for reporters to make up stories, lie by omission, ell deceptive half-truths, abandon standards for source vetting? Hell no. In some useful ways and not really to Trump's credit, he's revealed how entitled D.C. feels to undermine rather than personally oppose. Isn't Fox the one that had to retract a story that tried to deflect away from the Trump dumpster fire? Last I checked the vast majority of stories about Trump have been proven, often by Trumps own twitter tirades. Then you probably also believe that Comey was denied funding by Trump, Saudi money went into Ivanka Fund, Spicer hid in hedges from reporters, Rosenstein threatened to resign, the AHCA made rape a pre-existing condition, Mnunchin's bank foreclosed for 27 cents, and Trump threatened to invade Mexico. I wonder if the strategy is to keep a continuing stream of fake news and wake up the next morning not remembering all the retractions to keep people tied down pointing it out. several of those definitely happened, a couple are very likely, a couple are mostly true, and the only one that i'm pretty sure is fake is invading mexico. I guess what you want to be true can be true in this age.
To take one of your examples - the fact that the Ivanka-related charity is run by the IMF rather than Ivanka herself does not exactly insulate her from any concerns of corruption. It is just an excuse for you to focus on the media rather than the underlying issue.
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On May 27 2017 05:08 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 27 2017 04:17 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 27 2017 03:54 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:39 Reaps wrote:
I'm surprised people are being so lenient with GH, didn't expect these kind of comments on TL Considering the other garbage that gets spewed in TL about minority groups, I think GH can have his moment to talk about western imperialism and how it impacts a lot of peoples world views on culture. The substance of what he is saying isn’t terrible. His tone of preaching from the peak of the moral high ground is the problem. I’m a holier than thou progressive and even I obtain that level of condescension. I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH: 1) Talking about dead kids. 2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead. 3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it. We are all racist. Racism isn’t a thing or a state of being, it is something you do. It is act. Once someone accept that, it is only a question of how they response when they find out they did something racist. Don’t view racism as some cartoon villain or something that damns you forever. Nope. Sorry I can't stand this line of reasoning. The KKK are racist, I'm not racist. There may be some institutional racism at the base of the society which I am a part of, that doesn't make me racist. To minimize racism as just a thing that we all have, like a nipple, is completely missing the point. Its one way in which the modern hard left has taken something which had meaning for everyone and reinterpreted it because they want to push their agenda further. If you want to see racism, read the testimony of black people 60-100 years ago. That's racism. To redefine it in terms of microaggressions (which it seems to me you're trying to do) is to completely ignore the progress that's been made in this area. You can't just redefine the world in terms that fit your agenda. "We are all racist." Original sin is a religious idea which seeks to control people into joining them. You are a sinner, but behave as I tell you and you will be redeemed. Its reprehensible. You should not think of racism solely as a binary state ("someone is racist or not") but rather as a spectrum ranging from 0 to 100, with 0 being the fictional/ideal "no racism at all" and 100 the most extreme racist ideologies/representations/etc. If you admit the existence of institutional racism in a given society, then the logical next step is to recognize that everyone who was socialized in this society is likely to have racist representations/stereotypes/etc. It doesn't make you a KKK member or an eternal sinner, simply someone who could not escape society (after all, you're only a child when you start being socialized to such stuff...).
I can agree with this. The problem I have, then is one of definition and language. Going back to the point someone made about how the US ended up Trump is a good way to look at this.
In the general population, among your average person, racism is a binary term. You either are or you aren't. Those people will be angry, to say the least, at being labelled a racist when the meaning behind it doesn't fit their definition of racism. When people say things like 'we are all racist', most people will take that badly, because what they define as racism is the racism where you punch a black person in the face because they're black, or use the n word.
Perhaps what is required is more nuanced language, not for everybody to suddenly change the way they define a word whose meaning seems to be constantly expanding.
Using terms like 'unconscious racism', to mean exactly that, instead of just racism, would probably be a more effective way of getting the message across.
In other words, I agree pretty much 100% with what zlefin said.
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When Saudi Arabia announced last week a $20-billion investment in a U.S. infrastructure fund managed by Blackstone Group LP, many noticed that it came shortly after presidential son-in-law Jared Kushner personally negotiated a $110-billion arms sale to the country. What went unnoticed -- and is largely unknown -- is how important Blackstone is to the Kushner family company.
Since 2013, Blackstone has loaned more than $400 million to finance four Kushner Cos. deals -- two of which have not been reported -- making it one of the business’s largest lenders. And their ties go beyond the loans. Stephen Schwarzman, Blackstone’s co-founder and chief executive officer, heads Trump’s business-advisory council and was in Riyadh with the president and Kushner. The Saudi promise to invest in Blackstone’s fund drove the firm’s stock up more than 8 percent.
www.bloomberg.com
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Seems like a weird hill to die on. Both on GH and on everyone else's side. I certainly see some white fragility on display here when there are like two whole pages of reaction to this rather minor story before GH even comes in with a differing viewpoint, and in the need for everyone to explode on him for that. I don't really think the subject warrants a continued reaction from GH either.
This is not important. Get back to what's important.
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On May 27 2017 04:47 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:44 OuchyDathurts wrote:On May 27 2017 04:41 biology]major wrote:On May 27 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:36 biology]major wrote:On May 27 2017 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 27 2017 04:17 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it. We are all racist. Racism isn’t a thing or a state of being, it is something you do. It is act. Once someone accept that, it is only a question of how they response when they find out they did something racist. Don’t view racism as some cartoon villain or something that damns you forever. Nope. Sorry I can't stand this line of reasoning. The KKK are racist, I'm not racist. There may be some institutional racism at the base of the society which I am a part of, that doesn't make me racist. To minimize racism as just a thing that we all have, like a nipple, is completely missing the point. Its one way in which the modern hard left has taken something which had meaning for everyone and reinterpreted it because they want to push their agenda further. If you want to see racism, read the testimony of black people 60-100 years ago. That's racism. To redefine it in terms of microaggressions (which it seems to me you're trying to do) is to completely ignore the progress that's been made in this area. You can't just redefine the world in terms that fit your agenda. "We are all racist." Original sin is a religious idea which seeks to control people into joining them. You are a sinner, but behave as I tell you and you will be redeemed. Its reprehensible. This is why we have Trump. People's thought processes are so fucking distorted and out of touch with reality, that they have to make up bs justifications and definitions in order to cope with god knows what. Either way, the last few pages of discussion are almost troll worthy. Starting with that petition against white owner's to GH's defense of it. This is a parody right guys? As far as Portland is concerned, it is a strange, shitty place. I was blessed to witness gross (think out of shape and wrinkly), naked people biking down the streets while in my Uber when I went there for a conference for a few days. There were weed shops inside the PSU college campus lol, people looked very different. Honestly couldn't tell if quite a few people were men or women. The complete inability for people to discuss or have any level of self reflection about racism is one of the reasons we have Trump. You are correct about that. It is very clear that our nation has a lot of work and long discussions in the coming decades. And I’m sure you will loath every minute of it. I would love to end actual racism, not your fantasy version. The only person living in a fantasy is you and your camp who believe racism is exclusively burning crosses and lynching black folks. As long as that is a prominent belief racism will never go away because you choose to keep it alive. I think racism is alive and well in the USA, but cultural appropriation? LOL give me a break. Y'all are crazy. The people who hated obama because he was black, yeah, that is racist and exists. Let's not go full portland here. Also, GH has been making racist af comments non stop.
It depends on your definition of cultural appropriation. There's been a lot of push back towards GH's definition, not too many people seem to be taking his definition. Most people don't have a problem with people cooking foods of different cultures, as long as you're not trying to pass it off as genuine authentic recipes taught to you by your fresh off the boat grandmother when that's clearly not the case. That version of cultural appropriation is absurd. I do believe that cultural appropriation exists in some regards. Take a look at many white as fuck pop stars currently and in recent years, the most privileged white people on earth appropriating black culture to sell albums. Pop princesses decide to use black culture to drum up sales for a few years and then once they've worn out that welcome they toss it by the road side. That kind of shit is very clearly cultural appropriation for the purposes of making a few bucks using someone else's culture. So it exists, it just depends on which definition you choose to use.
Racism is a scale that runs from relatively benign to genocide, but it's all racism none the less. Using the N word is obviously racist, but its very clearly not the same thing as burning a cross. While using the word is racist it in and of itself doesn't make one a card carrying Klansman. It's all a gradient and if you want to get rid of racism you have to acknowledge that it is more than lynch mobs, racism is the little shit too.
While I agree with GH on like 90% of things one thing I'll never agree with him on is his definition of racism. He goes with the racism requires power definition, I don't. Power certainly gives racism teeth, it makes it worse, I'll agree with that much. But it's entirely possible for black people to be racist towards white people, it just generally doesn't do much damage because of the general lack of power. "I'm white, you can't even hurt my feelings." -Louis CK. The power dynamic makes it worse, but it doesn't make the opposite nonexistent. Just generally ineffectual.
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On May 27 2017 04:48 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 27 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:36 biology]major wrote:On May 27 2017 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 27 2017 04:17 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 03:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:
[quote]
I mean, it would be cool if these discussions were actually discussions, but the inevitable end point always ends up with GH:
1) Talking about dead kids.
2) Saying that there are more important racism-related things that could be talked about instead.
3) Pretending to laugh about all the white cry-babies. As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it. We are all racist. Racism isn’t a thing or a state of being, it is something you do. It is act. Once someone accept that, it is only a question of how they response when they find out they did something racist. Don’t view racism as some cartoon villain or something that damns you forever. Nope. Sorry I can't stand this line of reasoning. The KKK are racist, I'm not racist. There may be some institutional racism at the base of the society which I am a part of, that doesn't make me racist. To minimize racism as just a thing that we all have, like a nipple, is completely missing the point. Its one way in which the modern hard left has taken something which had meaning for everyone and reinterpreted it because they want to push their agenda further. If you want to see racism, read the testimony of black people 60-100 years ago. That's racism. To redefine it in terms of microaggressions (which it seems to me you're trying to do) is to completely ignore the progress that's been made in this area. You can't just redefine the world in terms that fit your agenda. "We are all racist." Original sin is a religious idea which seeks to control people into joining them. You are a sinner, but behave as I tell you and you will be redeemed. Its reprehensible. This is why we have Trump. People's thought processes are so fucking distorted and out of touch with reality, that they have to make up bs justifications and definitions in order to cope with god knows what. Either way, the last few pages of discussion are almost troll worthy. Starting with that petition against white owner's to GH's defense of it. This is a parody right guys? As far as Portland is concerned, it is a strange, shitty place. I was blessed to witness gross (think out of shape and wrinkly), naked people biking down the streets while in my Uber when I went there for a conference for a few days. There were weed shops inside the PSU college campus lol, people looked very different. Honestly couldn't tell if quite a few people were men or women. The complete inability for people to discuss or have any level of self reflection about racism is one of the reasons we have Trump. You are correct about that. It is very clear that our nation has a lot of work and long discussions in the coming decades. And I’m sure you will loath every minute of it. What you see as an 'inability to discuss' others see as something else. Put this in historical context. The liberal, anti racist movement has been pushing and pushing for decades now and made huge progress. They are now pushing further than people are willing to accept, pushing into everybody's lives and telling us we're all racists. As soon as this started happening we get Trump. The problem is the total lack of self reflection from the activists whoa re really pushing this. They should be looking at themselves, but instead their totally blinkered mindset just sees this as proof that everyone's racist, and even more racist than they had previously thought. No-one seems to realize that is the obnoxiously invasive nature of these views and this activism that is the biggest problem here. This, by the way, is exactly what some morons on the right said was going to happen 30 years ago. They were fascist right wingers, mischaracterizing the left as some kind of idiotic, evil movement that wants to control everyone's thought processes and infringe on freedom of speech and thought. Lo and behold, the last thing I expected would be that 30 years later the left has somehow worked itself into a position of proving them right. Sadly, i agree 100%. It's insane what is happening to politics right now, just doesn't seem to be any middle ground or people even willing to give any. One extreme breeds another. Might disagree with you in the UK thread about certain issues but you're spot on here.
I think this is pretty far off the mark. The fact is that the minority voice has risen in public view through advances in technology like facebook allowing folks to gather together and make their voices heard. Movements like BLM wouldnt be half as prevalent without it. its not that the liberal anti-racist movement is pushing further than people are willing to accept. the demands have never changed... equality for all. for you to pretend that that hasn't always been the end goal is myopic at best. (that there are individual actors who have gone too far is not in question. I am aware of specific claims and demands made by BLM members that are stupid, but most of those have come from college kids who obviously shouldn't be taken as a mouthpiece for the entire movement or minority group). What has happened is that the part of america who believed that racism doesn't exist anymore, or that it isn't prevalent in day to day interactions cannot ignore it. you hear about it every day because people are protesting, because another incident happened, because the media likes a story. Racism is the problem but you blame those who are trying to bring attention to the issue as if they are the problem... don't you see something wrong with that?
These conversations are always silly to me. 'You are complaining about that when this is happening!!' So? Complaining about complaining is a great past time for people but it gets a little old. Put your support wherever you feel it is most needed, or closest to you. For most, it is for things they are personally affected by. So for black people in America, 'shooting us in the streets' might be worth it to you. But please put stuff in perspective. Maybe 100 black people have been killed so far this year by the police. Of those, some percentage were bad shots.
But lets take it at 100. How much energy should be expanded on highlighting those 100 people? That's up for each person to decide. 400,000 children die in Africa each year due to malnutrition. There is a food crisis in Somalia right frigging now. Does it get the attention in black America as much as police shootings? Which do you think would save more lives? Anyone can do both of course, but I sure ain't seeing the same push.
TLDR. There is always something more concerning going on that deserves more attention. Complaining about X because Y is more important is self serving grandstanding. In my humble opinion.
This makes no sense. you act as if someone can only be solving one problem at a time ever. lets add on top of that the fact that this is an american problem being discussed in the US politics thread. not to mention you are complaining about someone else complaining about x that isn't as important as Y so why dont you stop your self serving grandstanding? in your humble opinion....
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BRB Gonna go around the corner to the Golden Dragon and tell all the Cambodians they can't sell Chinese food anymore. When it's staffed by Chinese people I'm gonna tell them they can't serve General Tso's chicken unless they change their sign because that was invented in America.
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On May 27 2017 05:15 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 04:48 Reaps wrote:On May 27 2017 04:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 27 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:36 biology]major wrote:On May 27 2017 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 27 2017 04:17 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2017 04:04 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
As the local “woke white city boy” from my all white home town, I have learned to never, ever explain racism white people the way GH explains racism to white people. It isn’t effective and just feeds into all the preconceived ideas about these sorts of discussions. As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it. We are all racist. Racism isn’t a thing or a state of being, it is something you do. It is act. Once someone accept that, it is only a question of how they response when they find out they did something racist. Don’t view racism as some cartoon villain or something that damns you forever. Nope. Sorry I can't stand this line of reasoning. The KKK are racist, I'm not racist. There may be some institutional racism at the base of the society which I am a part of, that doesn't make me racist. To minimize racism as just a thing that we all have, like a nipple, is completely missing the point. Its one way in which the modern hard left has taken something which had meaning for everyone and reinterpreted it because they want to push their agenda further. If you want to see racism, read the testimony of black people 60-100 years ago. That's racism. To redefine it in terms of microaggressions (which it seems to me you're trying to do) is to completely ignore the progress that's been made in this area. You can't just redefine the world in terms that fit your agenda. "We are all racist." Original sin is a religious idea which seeks to control people into joining them. You are a sinner, but behave as I tell you and you will be redeemed. Its reprehensible. This is why we have Trump. People's thought processes are so fucking distorted and out of touch with reality, that they have to make up bs justifications and definitions in order to cope with god knows what. Either way, the last few pages of discussion are almost troll worthy. Starting with that petition against white owner's to GH's defense of it. This is a parody right guys? As far as Portland is concerned, it is a strange, shitty place. I was blessed to witness gross (think out of shape and wrinkly), naked people biking down the streets while in my Uber when I went there for a conference for a few days. There were weed shops inside the PSU college campus lol, people looked very different. Honestly couldn't tell if quite a few people were men or women. The complete inability for people to discuss or have any level of self reflection about racism is one of the reasons we have Trump. You are correct about that. It is very clear that our nation has a lot of work and long discussions in the coming decades. And I’m sure you will loath every minute of it. What you see as an 'inability to discuss' others see as something else. Put this in historical context. The liberal, anti racist movement has been pushing and pushing for decades now and made huge progress. They are now pushing further than people are willing to accept, pushing into everybody's lives and telling us we're all racists. As soon as this started happening we get Trump. The problem is the total lack of self reflection from the activists whoa re really pushing this. They should be looking at themselves, but instead their totally blinkered mindset just sees this as proof that everyone's racist, and even more racist than they had previously thought. No-one seems to realize that is the obnoxiously invasive nature of these views and this activism that is the biggest problem here. This, by the way, is exactly what some morons on the right said was going to happen 30 years ago. They were fascist right wingers, mischaracterizing the left as some kind of idiotic, evil movement that wants to control everyone's thought processes and infringe on freedom of speech and thought. Lo and behold, the last thing I expected would be that 30 years later the left has somehow worked itself into a position of proving them right. Sadly, i agree 100%. It's insane what is happening to politics right now, just doesn't seem to be any middle ground or people even willing to give any. One extreme breeds another. Might disagree with you in the UK thread about certain issues but you're spot on here. I think this is pretty far off the mark. The fact is that the minority voice has risen in public view through advances in technology like facebook allowing folks to gather together and make their voices heard. Movements like BLM wouldnt be half as prevalent without it. its not that the liberal anti-racist movement is pushing further than people are willing to accept. the demands have never changed... equality for all. for you to pretend that that hasn't always been the end goal is myopic at best. (that there are individual actors who have gone too far is not in question. I am aware of specific claims and demands made by BLM members that are stupid, but most of those have come from college kids who obviously shouldn't be taken as a mouthpiece for the entire movement or minority group). What has happened is that the part of america who believed that racism doesn't exist anymore, or that it isn't prevalent in day to day interactions cannot ignore it. you hear about it every day because people are protesting, because another incident happened, because the media likes a story. Racism is the problem but you blame those who are trying to bring attention to the issue as if they are the problem... don't you see something wrong with that?
No I don't. I'm approaching this from a leftist point of view (something I didn't disclose when I started discussing it). I am absolutely dedicated to equality of opportunity and don't believe that anyone should be discriminated against in any way for any reason. I just think the methods currently being employed by activists are counter-productive to this goal, hence Trump.
When you say 'for you to pretend that that hasn't always been the end goal' you are using that as a way to ignore all historical context.
You can't say the end goal is the same when if you were going to summarize that goal using languages the definition of every single word has changed in the meantime. If racism means something different now, then anti racism campaigns have a different goal. If equality means something different now (which it definitely does - it has become equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity) then the goal has changed. The goal has covertly changed, and it will continue to do so the more gains are made. Of course, with Trump, the more overtly racist society becomes I can envisage the goals and language changing again as people realize the futility of calling everyone a racist.
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On May 27 2017 05:25 Gahlo wrote:
BRB Gonna go around the corner to the Golden Dragon and tell all the Cambodians they can't sell Chinese food anymore. When it's staffed by Chinese people I'm gonna tell them they can't serve General Tso's chicken unless they change their sign because that was invented in America.
this means no more fortune cookies too, right? 
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On May 27 2017 05:12 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 02:58 Danglars wrote:On May 27 2017 02:12 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 27 2017 02:08 Danglars wrote:On May 26 2017 21:49 Gorsameth wrote:On May 26 2017 21:35 Danglars wrote:On May 26 2017 17:17 Slaughter wrote:On May 26 2017 15:57 Danglars wrote:On May 26 2017 15:34 Slaughter wrote:
At least with Hillary she would have you know actually appointed people to work in the government and made a cabinet with competent people. Not to mention sticking it to the GOP members of congress with her supreme court pick and the ability to veto whatever stupid dumpster fire of ideas the GOP congress shits out. Seriously I don't have as big of problem with conservatism as I do with the utter clowns conservatives choose to represent them in congress. But maybe I should thank them because between them and Trump conservatism will probably lose a looot of respect the next few years since Democrats can't do anything to them that they aren't already doing to themselves. Better some clowns to cause a little havoc than a slick crew that oppose my interests! And hell, you said it buddy, sticking it to the Democrat members with his supreme court pick (RIP Garland). I can't think of a better successor to that suave Obama. Everybody's going so crazy and it's absolutely marvelous. He's doing such ludicrous stuff, but not to be outdone, the media sprinkles in three ridiculous accusations for every one solid. I'm trending below 50% agreement with what Trump does, for sure. But the Dems didn't run a Lieberman type, they gave me an unsatisfactory second choice. I'm having some trouble thinking up a likely Dem candidate I'd actually consider better than Trump for my political views. Political churning, at this point, is vastly preferable to a determined push leftward. I guess that is the difference between you and me. If Trump was the Democratic nominee I would have voted Republican despite the ideological differences. Trump is just that bad and it was obvious from his campaign. The difference between you and me is I think America's institutions, or what's worth preserving that's left of them, are resilient enough to last against one knucklehead. To some extent, the left's screwed the goose by investing too heavily in justifying some very bad shit by demonizing Trump. Bad enough to have partisan hacks leaking at every level of the executive, but particularly in the intelligence agencies? Fuck no. Bad enough for reporters to make up stories, lie by omission, ell deceptive half-truths, abandon standards for source vetting? Hell no. In some useful ways and not really to Trump's credit, he's revealed how entitled D.C. feels to undermine rather than personally oppose. Isn't Fox the one that had to retract a story that tried to deflect away from the Trump dumpster fire? Last I checked the vast majority of stories about Trump have been proven, often by Trumps own twitter tirades. Then you probably also believe that Comey was denied funding by Trump, Saudi money went into Ivanka Fund, Spicer hid in hedges from reporters, Rosenstein threatened to resign, the AHCA made rape a pre-existing condition, Mnunchin's bank foreclosed for 27 cents, and Trump threatened to invade Mexico. I wonder if the strategy is to keep a continuing stream of fake news and wake up the next morning not remembering all the retractions to keep people tied down pointing it out. several of those definitely happened, a couple are very likely, a couple are mostly true, and the only one that i'm pretty sure is fake is invading mexico. I guess what you want to be true can be true in this age. To take one of your examples - the fact that the Ivanka-related charity is run by the IMF rather than Ivanka herself does not exactly insulate her from any concerns of corruption. It is just an excuse for you to focus on the media rather than the underlying issue.
Lol. It's World Bank's Women Entrepreneurs Fund. I'm pretty impressed that the stories+ Show Spoiler + that this is Clinton's foundation accusations redux gets effortlessly switched to some broad corruption charge. I don't know, what exactly do you hate about the world bank? If people you don't like campaign for charitable causes, does it taint the action?
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On May 27 2017 05:26 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 05:15 Trainrunnef wrote:On May 27 2017 04:48 Reaps wrote:On May 27 2017 04:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 27 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:36 biology]major wrote:On May 27 2017 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 27 2017 04:17 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it. We are all racist. Racism isn’t a thing or a state of being, it is something you do. It is act. Once someone accept that, it is only a question of how they response when they find out they did something racist. Don’t view racism as some cartoon villain or something that damns you forever. Nope. Sorry I can't stand this line of reasoning. The KKK are racist, I'm not racist. There may be some institutional racism at the base of the society which I am a part of, that doesn't make me racist. To minimize racism as just a thing that we all have, like a nipple, is completely missing the point. Its one way in which the modern hard left has taken something which had meaning for everyone and reinterpreted it because they want to push their agenda further. If you want to see racism, read the testimony of black people 60-100 years ago. That's racism. To redefine it in terms of microaggressions (which it seems to me you're trying to do) is to completely ignore the progress that's been made in this area. You can't just redefine the world in terms that fit your agenda. "We are all racist." Original sin is a religious idea which seeks to control people into joining them. You are a sinner, but behave as I tell you and you will be redeemed. Its reprehensible. This is why we have Trump. People's thought processes are so fucking distorted and out of touch with reality, that they have to make up bs justifications and definitions in order to cope with god knows what. Either way, the last few pages of discussion are almost troll worthy. Starting with that petition against white owner's to GH's defense of it. This is a parody right guys? As far as Portland is concerned, it is a strange, shitty place. I was blessed to witness gross (think out of shape and wrinkly), naked people biking down the streets while in my Uber when I went there for a conference for a few days. There were weed shops inside the PSU college campus lol, people looked very different. Honestly couldn't tell if quite a few people were men or women. The complete inability for people to discuss or have any level of self reflection about racism is one of the reasons we have Trump. You are correct about that. It is very clear that our nation has a lot of work and long discussions in the coming decades. And I’m sure you will loath every minute of it. What you see as an 'inability to discuss' others see as something else. Put this in historical context. The liberal, anti racist movement has been pushing and pushing for decades now and made huge progress. They are now pushing further than people are willing to accept, pushing into everybody's lives and telling us we're all racists. As soon as this started happening we get Trump. The problem is the total lack of self reflection from the activists whoa re really pushing this. They should be looking at themselves, but instead their totally blinkered mindset just sees this as proof that everyone's racist, and even more racist than they had previously thought. No-one seems to realize that is the obnoxiously invasive nature of these views and this activism that is the biggest problem here. This, by the way, is exactly what some morons on the right said was going to happen 30 years ago. They were fascist right wingers, mischaracterizing the left as some kind of idiotic, evil movement that wants to control everyone's thought processes and infringe on freedom of speech and thought. Lo and behold, the last thing I expected would be that 30 years later the left has somehow worked itself into a position of proving them right. Sadly, i agree 100%. It's insane what is happening to politics right now, just doesn't seem to be any middle ground or people even willing to give any. One extreme breeds another. Might disagree with you in the UK thread about certain issues but you're spot on here. I think this is pretty far off the mark. The fact is that the minority voice has risen in public view through advances in technology like facebook allowing folks to gather together and make their voices heard. Movements like BLM wouldnt be half as prevalent without it. its not that the liberal anti-racist movement is pushing further than people are willing to accept. the demands have never changed... equality for all. for you to pretend that that hasn't always been the end goal is myopic at best. (that there are individual actors who have gone too far is not in question. I am aware of specific claims and demands made by BLM members that are stupid, but most of those have come from college kids who obviously shouldn't be taken as a mouthpiece for the entire movement or minority group). What has happened is that the part of america who believed that racism doesn't exist anymore, or that it isn't prevalent in day to day interactions cannot ignore it. you hear about it every day because people are protesting, because another incident happened, because the media likes a story. Racism is the problem but you blame those who are trying to bring attention to the issue as if they are the problem... don't you see something wrong with that? No I don't. I'm approaching this from a leftist point of view (something I didn't disclose when I started discussing it). I am absolutely dedicated to equality of opportunity and don't believe that anyone should be discriminated against in any way for any reason. I just think the methods currently being employed by activists are counter-productive to this goal, hence Trump. When you say 'for you to pretend that that hasn't always been the end goal' you are using that as a way to ignore all historical context. You can't say the end goal is the same when if you were going to summarize that goal using languages the definition of every single word has changed in the meantime. If racism means something different now, then anti racism campaigns have a different goal. If equality means something different now (which it definitely does - it has become equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity) then the goal has changed. The goal has covertly changed, and it will continue to do so the more gains are made. Of course, with Trump, the more overtly racist society becomes I can envisage the goals and language changing again as people realize the futility of calling everyone a racist.
From a US perspective, the concept of racism has not changed very much since the 1960s and 1970s at the height of the civil rights movement. MLK and other civil rights leaders were talking about the same issues back then that people are talking about now. Even the counter arguments and rhetoric on the other side hasn’t changed that much.
My parents grew up right after the civil rights movement. My father’s observation about the current era is that his generation, collectively, did not teach our generation how to discuss racism. They operated under a very arrogant belief that it wasn’t a problem. There was this real belief that the old racists would die off and next generation would be less racist than the last. And I remember that attitude being prevalent in the 1990s and sort of buying into it. They were wrong and now we are left poorly equipped with a culture that was told this was a solved problem.
That is just one person’s take on it. And my father is hyper critical of his generation.
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On May 27 2017 05:26 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2017 05:15 Trainrunnef wrote:On May 27 2017 04:48 Reaps wrote:On May 27 2017 04:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 27 2017 04:40 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:36 biology]major wrote:On May 27 2017 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 27 2017 04:17 Plansix wrote:On May 27 2017 04:09 ZeromuS wrote:On May 27 2017 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
As a black person my whole life, I've learned they don't need any help to maintain racist understandings of the world around them, and it's almost never through a reasoned argument that they realize their error. It's almost exclusively a result of a personal experience that has nothing to do with a conversation about how racist America has always been and still is. Well your reasoned argument included saying all white people are racist and making large brush stroke comments about white people. Isn't making huge generalizations problematic regardless of the group you are discussing? I just think your approach and tact are poor. America is racist as hell but there are better ways to try and talk to people about it. We are all racist. Racism isn’t a thing or a state of being, it is something you do. It is act. Once someone accept that, it is only a question of how they response when they find out they did something racist. Don’t view racism as some cartoon villain or something that damns you forever. Nope. Sorry I can't stand this line of reasoning. The KKK are racist, I'm not racist. There may be some institutional racism at the base of the society which I am a part of, that doesn't make me racist. To minimize racism as just a thing that we all have, like a nipple, is completely missing the point. Its one way in which the modern hard left has taken something which had meaning for everyone and reinterpreted it because they want to push their agenda further. If you want to see racism, read the testimony of black people 60-100 years ago. That's racism. To redefine it in terms of microaggressions (which it seems to me you're trying to do) is to completely ignore the progress that's been made in this area. You can't just redefine the world in terms that fit your agenda. "We are all racist." Original sin is a religious idea which seeks to control people into joining them. You are a sinner, but behave as I tell you and you will be redeemed. Its reprehensible. This is why we have Trump. People's thought processes are so fucking distorted and out of touch with reality, that they have to make up bs justifications and definitions in order to cope with god knows what. Either way, the last few pages of discussion are almost troll worthy. Starting with that petition against white owner's to GH's defense of it. This is a parody right guys? As far as Portland is concerned, it is a strange, shitty place. I was blessed to witness gross (think out of shape and wrinkly), naked people biking down the streets while in my Uber when I went there for a conference for a few days. There were weed shops inside the PSU college campus lol, people looked very different. Honestly couldn't tell if quite a few people were men or women. The complete inability for people to discuss or have any level of self reflection about racism is one of the reasons we have Trump. You are correct about that. It is very clear that our nation has a lot of work and long discussions in the coming decades. And I’m sure you will loath every minute of it. What you see as an 'inability to discuss' others see as something else. Put this in historical context. The liberal, anti racist movement has been pushing and pushing for decades now and made huge progress. They are now pushing further than people are willing to accept, pushing into everybody's lives and telling us we're all racists. As soon as this started happening we get Trump. The problem is the total lack of self reflection from the activists whoa re really pushing this. They should be looking at themselves, but instead their totally blinkered mindset just sees this as proof that everyone's racist, and even more racist than they had previously thought. No-one seems to realize that is the obnoxiously invasive nature of these views and this activism that is the biggest problem here. This, by the way, is exactly what some morons on the right said was going to happen 30 years ago. They were fascist right wingers, mischaracterizing the left as some kind of idiotic, evil movement that wants to control everyone's thought processes and infringe on freedom of speech and thought. Lo and behold, the last thing I expected would be that 30 years later the left has somehow worked itself into a position of proving them right. Sadly, i agree 100%. It's insane what is happening to politics right now, just doesn't seem to be any middle ground or people even willing to give any. One extreme breeds another. Might disagree with you in the UK thread about certain issues but you're spot on here. I think this is pretty far off the mark. The fact is that the minority voice has risen in public view through advances in technology like facebook allowing folks to gather together and make their voices heard. Movements like BLM wouldnt be half as prevalent without it. its not that the liberal anti-racist movement is pushing further than people are willing to accept. the demands have never changed... equality for all. for you to pretend that that hasn't always been the end goal is myopic at best. (that there are individual actors who have gone too far is not in question. I am aware of specific claims and demands made by BLM members that are stupid, but most of those have come from college kids who obviously shouldn't be taken as a mouthpiece for the entire movement or minority group). What has happened is that the part of america who believed that racism doesn't exist anymore, or that it isn't prevalent in day to day interactions cannot ignore it. you hear about it every day because people are protesting, because another incident happened, because the media likes a story. Racism is the problem but you blame those who are trying to bring attention to the issue as if they are the problem... don't you see something wrong with that? No I don't. I'm approaching this from a leftist point of view (something I didn't disclose when I started discussing it). I am absolutely dedicated to equality of opportunity and don't believe that anyone should be discriminated against in any way for any reason. I just think the methods currently being employed by activists are counter-productive to this goal, hence Trump. When you say 'for you to pretend that that hasn't always been the end goal' you are using that as a way to ignore all historical context. You can't say the end goal is the same when if you were going to summarize that goal using languages the definition of every single word has changed in the meantime. If racism means something different now, then anti racism campaigns have a different goal. If equality means something different now (which it definitely does - it has become equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity) then the goal has changed. The goal has covertly changed, and it will continue to do so the more gains are made. Of course, with Trump, the more overtly racist society becomes I can envisage the goals and language changing again as people realize the futility of calling everyone a racist.
I dont personally believe that equality of outcome has become the goal, I believe that people have observed that the historical context of interaction between the two races has resulted in an inherent inequality of opportunity even if on its face it appears to be equal. It has changed the approach to how to obtain that equality which in the short term does make it look like the goal has changed, but things like affirmative action were always and should continue to be seen as a temporary tool to provide the minorty communities with a stepping stone towards an equal opportunity playing field. in short I concede that the tools to obtain that equality have changed necessarily, but i refute that the objective and definition of equality has.
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EPT
