|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On May 12 2017 00:12 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 23:54 KwarK wrote:On May 11 2017 19:11 HalcyonRain wrote:On May 11 2017 18:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
The U.S. needs a much stricter immigration system. Copying Canada's merit based system would be a good start. To candidate Trump's credit, he was the only person in either primary even willing to raise these issues. The mass importation of the Third World has got to end. It is destroying the social fabric of this country. From what I understand we actually DO have a quite strict immigration system that takes a long long time to get through. The problem is the illegal immigration. Obama found it politically expedient to try to forgive a lot of the illegal immigrants and give them citizenship, although I don't know the details. From a political standpoint that was a very good move for the democrat party, as those people will very likely vote democrat the rest of their lives, both because it was a democrat that gave them a free pass, and that it's very likely they're on the poorer side and need gov assistance. I believe part of Obama's executive orders, in essence, stopped immigration enforcement, whereas Trump has now started to enforce the law and may be turning illegals back at the southern US border. Whether this does anything or not, who knows. Hispanics are generally super pro-life and socially conservative. Hispanics still vote democrat though.
The Republican’s long standing anti-immigration stance has limited their ability to capture those votes. All of the minority demographics that overwhelmingly vote democrat do it because the Republicans offer those demographics nothing. Many republican states are pushing voting laws that are designed to suppress minority turn out. Why would anyone vote for a party that is actively trying to prevent them from voting?
|
On May 12 2017 00:12 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 23:31 warding wrote:On May 11 2017 23:20 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 23:13 warding wrote:On May 11 2017 23:08 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 22:56 warding wrote:On May 11 2017 22:43 Danglars wrote:On May 11 2017 22:36 Plansix wrote:On May 11 2017 22:32 TMG26 wrote:On May 11 2017 22:00 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I would argue that there is no barrier we could create that can stop a man that is willing to be deported 15 times. As others have said, oceans do not stop illegal migrants. And on a similar line of thinking, contractors often say “you can’t stop water” when it comes to drainage and preventing flooding in houses. If this person was dangerous and kept coming back into the country, at some point we should have just incarcerated him. Maybe around deportation number 8-14. The wall doesn't stop it, but it may reduce it. Oceans only slow people down. Deserts only slow people down. Mountains only slow people down. How many billions are we willing to pay for a slight reduction while not overhauling our immigration system. Several billion in fact. Slow down every attempted re-entry and make the success rate way lower (unless you think patrolling a wall is inferior to patrolling no wall) Waste more months of your life attempting. Save rape victims and DUI injuries because guys like Constantino are still attempting his 3rd border crossing at age 38. Instead of having made it across 15 times. And you'll have a nice big government big business president perfectly willing to negotiate guest worker visas for things like seasonal farm labor. But no, when you say "If this person was dangerous and kept coming back into the country, at so me point we should have just incarcerated him" you meant "If this person was dangerous and kept coming back into the country, the stupidest thing would be to make it harder to do so." Crime rates are lower among illegal immigrants than native americans, so you are increasing chances of rape and DUI injuries and making americans less safe by building the wall. Sometimes the parody is hard to separate from the sincere. I was being sincere. Educate me on why what I said is wrong. Breaking immigration law is a crime. Equivalent numbers of Americans are not exchanged for the new crop of illegal immigrants, so one new lawbreaker still increase rape and DUI injuries. Try telling the mother of a dead child that she was one of many new crimes by illegal immigrants, but at least the percentage is lower! I'm sure she will be comforted by your brilliant use of statistics. Breaking immigration law hurts no one and the discussion here was clearly about violent crime or crime that actually makes natives' lives worse. When assessing crime statistics from the perspective of how safe one is in a country you obviously have to use relative figures, which is why they're pretty much always expressed that way when doing any sort of meaningful comparison. If you want to figure out how safe you are, you have to look at "what are the chances of me getting raped/killed today?". Those chances decrease with illegal immigration because they commit fewer crimes per 100 000 people. I thought this was a policy debate not an exercise in cheap demagoguery. If you're actually concerned about grieving mothers, why not start with gun control? by that logic if we want to reduce crime we should start black people control
That is Danglars' logic for reducing illegal immigration. Indeed I accepted debating based on that logic, but I never advocated anything of the sort.
Having said that, that seems to be US policy since Nixon, judging by the incarceration rates of black people.
|
I will say it would seem that Trump's stated intentions alone have drastically reduced border crossings (at least according to reports). By contrast there were signals from the Obama administration that young would be able to stay, and that actually led huge numbers to try to come. If Trump's signals alone are enough to keep illegal border crossings manageable, I can't say I disagree with it. That said, Trump's shouldn't go one step further with his signals and inflame the racist portion of his base.
|
On May 12 2017 00:34 Doodsmack wrote:
I will say it would seem that Trump's stated intentions alone have drastically reduced border crossings (at least according to reports). By contrast there were signals from the Obama administration that young would be able to stay, and that actually led huge numbers to try to come. If Trump's signals alone are enough to keep illegal border crossings manageable, I can't say I disagree with it. That said, Trump's shouldn't go one step further with his signals and inflame the racist portion of his base.
One thing I would be curious about: Of the people who decided not to cross recently, how many will decide to never cross? I'd say we are more interested in the number of people to cross over the next ___ years, rather than the number to have crossed the past few months. If some people decide to wait it out for a year, then still go, it might be that we end up with roughly the same number of people once the dust settles.
Edit: I think it makes sense that people would be hesitant to cross immediately, but the underlying reason for them crossing the border remains. Its not like people cross out of boredom. People are crossing because they feel like they have to.
|
United States44295 Posts
Ignores the number of people already here who would have gone back but didn't because they couldn't cross the border too.
|
On May 12 2017 00:34 Doodsmack wrote:
I will say it would seem that Trump's stated intentions alone have drastically reduced border crossings (at least according to reports). By contrast there were signals from the Obama administration that young would be able to stay, and that actually led huge numbers to try to come. If Trump's signals alone are enough to keep illegal border crossings manageable, I can't say I disagree with it. That said, Trump's shouldn't go one step further with his signals and inflame the racist portion of his base.
Where have you seen those numbers? What I've seen everywhere are statistics that show that net migration to the US died mid-GWB:
![[image loading]](http://www.trbimg.com/img-564e73d3/turbine/la-g-fg-mexican-immigration-net-migration-20151119/650/650x366)
|
|
|
On May 12 2017 00:12 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 23:54 KwarK wrote:On May 11 2017 19:11 HalcyonRain wrote:On May 11 2017 18:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
The U.S. needs a much stricter immigration system. Copying Canada's merit based system would be a good start. To candidate Trump's credit, he was the only person in either primary even willing to raise these issues. The mass importation of the Third World has got to end. It is destroying the social fabric of this country. From what I understand we actually DO have a quite strict immigration system that takes a long long time to get through. The problem is the illegal immigration. Obama found it politically expedient to try to forgive a lot of the illegal immigrants and give them citizenship, although I don't know the details. From a political standpoint that was a very good move for the democrat party, as those people will very likely vote democrat the rest of their lives, both because it was a democrat that gave them a free pass, and that it's very likely they're on the poorer side and need gov assistance. I believe part of Obama's executive orders, in essence, stopped immigration enforcement, whereas Trump has now started to enforce the law and may be turning illegals back at the southern US border. Whether this does anything or not, who knows. Hispanics are generally super pro-life and socially conservative. Hispanics still vote democrat though.
As a hispanic, I regret to inform you that it's not true. While a large number do vote democrat, I say about 40% vote republican. I grew up republican, and move more center as I grew. Shit in Miami you find a lot, and I mean A LOT of republicans still.
Also another thing, it's not just Mexicans that cross the border, Cubans have been arriving to Venezuela and riding up to the Texas border lately instead of boating since it's easier to leave Cuba to go to Venezuela all the sudden. Which I definitely think the Cuban government is behind what's going on in Venezuela right now.
|
mccabe put the report that comey asked for extra resources for the russia investigation to bed. He said they ask congress not the doj, and they typically don't ask for more resources for a single investigation. He also mentioned that the FBI did have faith in Comey.
Things to learn from this are, don't trust reporting from anyone (NYT, WSJ, whoever) about "anonymous sources". Comey alluded to this in his previous testimony, that he was flabbergasted at the amount of false reporting he was seeing in the media. These are the only straight shooters we have, the rest are political, especially in this hyperpartisan environment and spread of information via tweets and social media.
|
It's really hard to see the real issues, when you sit at home and get spoon fed news through the computer. Teamliquid while leans left, I still feel has its conservatives that some what help view it differently. I can't talk to a republican in FL because they're just mad ignorant.
|
On May 12 2017 00:44 biology]major wrote:
mccabe put the report that comey asked for extra resources for the russia investigation to bed. He said they ask congress not the doj, and they typically don't ask for more resources for a single investigation. He also mentioned that the FBI did have faith in Comey.
Things to learn from this are, don't trust reporting from anyone (NYT, WSJ, whoever) about "anonymous sources". Comey alluded to this in his previous testimony, that he was flabbergasted at the amount of false reporting he was seeing in the media. These are the only straight shooters we have, the rest are political, especially in this hyperpartisan environment and spread of information via tweets and social media.
just because i'm trying to make it a personal mission to go against trumps fearmongering normalization, a healthy skepticism of things you read from all news sources is healthy.
the times and then journal are as biased as any, and to blindly accept the FBI as straight shooters is as misguided as assuming your rightwing biases (in the news, not your personals) are any more true than the 'fake news! bad!' NYT.
|
The lesson is to use critical thinking when reading reports from reporters and sources. Their reports were especially correct, he sought additional funding. The specifics if the request went to the DOJ or directly to congress conflicted. I wouldn’t buy into the government’s assertion the media gets it wrong all the time and their reports are false. Remember that Flynn would still be working for the White House was it not for the Washington Post.
|
On May 12 2017 00:41 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2017 00:12 Tachion wrote:On May 11 2017 23:54 KwarK wrote:On May 11 2017 19:11 HalcyonRain wrote:On May 11 2017 18:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
The U.S. needs a much stricter immigration system. Copying Canada's merit based system would be a good start. To candidate Trump's credit, he was the only person in either primary even willing to raise these issues. The mass importation of the Third World has got to end. It is destroying the social fabric of this country. From what I understand we actually DO have a quite strict immigration system that takes a long long time to get through. The problem is the illegal immigration. Obama found it politically expedient to try to forgive a lot of the illegal immigrants and give them citizenship, although I don't know the details. From a political standpoint that was a very good move for the democrat party, as those people will very likely vote democrat the rest of their lives, both because it was a democrat that gave them a free pass, and that it's very likely they're on the poorer side and need gov assistance. I believe part of Obama's executive orders, in essence, stopped immigration enforcement, whereas Trump has now started to enforce the law and may be turning illegals back at the southern US border. Whether this does anything or not, who knows. Hispanics are generally super pro-life and socially conservative. Hispanics still vote democrat though. As a hispanic, I regret to inform you that it's not true. While a large number do vote democrat, I say about 40% vote republican. I grew up republican, and move more center as I grew. Shit in Miami you find a lot, and I mean A LOT of republicans still. Also another thing, it's not just Mexicans that cross the border, Cubans have been arriving to Venezuela and riding up to the Texas border lately instead of boating since it's easier to leave Cuba to go to Venezuela all the sudden. Which I definitely think the Cuban government is behind what's going on in Venezuela right now.
They do definitely tend to vote Republican more than other minorities that's for sure. Pew had Hillary taking 66% of the Latino vote, which is down from Obamas 71% in 2012, but it's still very safe for democrats to rely on a significant majority of their votes. At least until the Republicans start changing their platform as others have stated.
|
On May 12 2017 00:41 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2017 00:34 Doodsmack wrote:
I will say it would seem that Trump's stated intentions alone have drastically reduced border crossings (at least according to reports). By contrast there were signals from the Obama administration that young would be able to stay, and that actually led huge numbers to try to come. If Trump's signals alone are enough to keep illegal border crossings manageable, I can't say I disagree with it. That said, Trump's shouldn't go one step further with his signals and inflame the racist portion of his base. Where have you seen those numbers? What I've seen everywhere are statistics that show that net migration to the US died mid-GWB:
I think that graph is really important, but it's also important to understand its limitations; it's only tracking Mexican immigrants, not immigrants from other countries that go through Mexico. The data from here: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/02/what-we-know-about-illegal-immigration-from-mexico/ still generally backs up your point though.
|
On May 12 2017 00:56 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2017 00:41 ShoCkeyy wrote:On May 12 2017 00:12 Tachion wrote:On May 11 2017 23:54 KwarK wrote:On May 11 2017 19:11 HalcyonRain wrote:On May 11 2017 18:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
The U.S. needs a much stricter immigration system. Copying Canada's merit based system would be a good start. To candidate Trump's credit, he was the only person in either primary even willing to raise these issues. The mass importation of the Third World has got to end. It is destroying the social fabric of this country. From what I understand we actually DO have a quite strict immigration system that takes a long long time to get through. The problem is the illegal immigration. Obama found it politically expedient to try to forgive a lot of the illegal immigrants and give them citizenship, although I don't know the details. From a political standpoint that was a very good move for the democrat party, as those people will very likely vote democrat the rest of their lives, both because it was a democrat that gave them a free pass, and that it's very likely they're on the poorer side and need gov assistance. I believe part of Obama's executive orders, in essence, stopped immigration enforcement, whereas Trump has now started to enforce the law and may be turning illegals back at the southern US border. Whether this does anything or not, who knows. Hispanics are generally super pro-life and socially conservative. Hispanics still vote democrat though. As a hispanic, I regret to inform you that it's not true. While a large number do vote democrat, I say about 40% vote republican. I grew up republican, and move more center as I grew. Shit in Miami you find a lot, and I mean A LOT of republicans still. Also another thing, it's not just Mexicans that cross the border, Cubans have been arriving to Venezuela and riding up to the Texas border lately instead of boating since it's easier to leave Cuba to go to Venezuela all the sudden. Which I definitely think the Cuban government is behind what's going on in Venezuela right now. They do definitely tend to vote Republican more than other minorities that's for sure. Pew had Hillary taking 66% of the Latino vote, which is down from Obamas 71% in 2012, but it's still very safe for democrats to rely on a significant majority of their votes. At least until the Republicans start changing their platform as others have stated.
Part of the problem is looking at Hispanics as a monolithic group. we are not homogeneous. Cubans and Mexicans are extremely conservative, much more-so than some others. don't fall into the trap of looking at over 15 different countries as similar just because of the language (which is very different as well when you look at pronunciation and colloquial speech).
|
On May 12 2017 01:03 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2017 00:56 Tachion wrote:On May 12 2017 00:41 ShoCkeyy wrote:On May 12 2017 00:12 Tachion wrote:On May 11 2017 23:54 KwarK wrote:On May 11 2017 19:11 HalcyonRain wrote:On May 11 2017 18:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
The U.S. needs a much stricter immigration system. Copying Canada's merit based system would be a good start. To candidate Trump's credit, he was the only person in either primary even willing to raise these issues. The mass importation of the Third World has got to end. It is destroying the social fabric of this country. From what I understand we actually DO have a quite strict immigration system that takes a long long time to get through. The problem is the illegal immigration. Obama found it politically expedient to try to forgive a lot of the illegal immigrants and give them citizenship, although I don't know the details. From a political standpoint that was a very good move for the democrat party, as those people will very likely vote democrat the rest of their lives, both because it was a democrat that gave them a free pass, and that it's very likely they're on the poorer side and need gov assistance. I believe part of Obama's executive orders, in essence, stopped immigration enforcement, whereas Trump has now started to enforce the law and may be turning illegals back at the southern US border. Whether this does anything or not, who knows. Hispanics are generally super pro-life and socially conservative. Hispanics still vote democrat though. As a hispanic, I regret to inform you that it's not true. While a large number do vote democrat, I say about 40% vote republican. I grew up republican, and move more center as I grew. Shit in Miami you find a lot, and I mean A LOT of republicans still. Also another thing, it's not just Mexicans that cross the border, Cubans have been arriving to Venezuela and riding up to the Texas border lately instead of boating since it's easier to leave Cuba to go to Venezuela all the sudden. Which I definitely think the Cuban government is behind what's going on in Venezuela right now. They do definitely tend to vote Republican more than other minorities that's for sure. Pew had Hillary taking 66% of the Latino vote, which is down from Obamas 71% in 2012, but it's still very safe for democrats to rely on a significant majority of their votes. At least until the Republicans start changing their platform as others have stated. Part of the problem is looking at Hispanics as a monolithic group. we are not homogeneous. Cubans and Mexicans are extremely conservative, much more-so than some others. don't fall into the trap of looking at over 15 different countries as similar just because of the language (which is very different as well when you look at pronunciation and colloquial speech).
Yea reading through some of this is surprising for sure, like how More Cubans voted for Trump than Hillary in Florida. I didn't know it was that divided. Interesting!
|
On May 12 2017 00:34 Doodsmack wrote:
I will say it would seem that Trump's stated intentions alone have drastically reduced border crossings (at least according to reports). By contrast there were signals from the Obama administration that young would be able to stay, and that actually led huge numbers to try to come. If Trump's signals alone are enough to keep illegal border crossings manageable, I can't say I disagree with it. That said, Trump's shouldn't go one step further with his signals and inflame the racist portion of his base.
I'm not sure I've ever seen hard numbers on "huge numbers coming" recently. I had heard quite the opposite, that border-hopping illegal immigration has attenuated over time/we're nearly at a parity (I suppose illegal immigrants be dying off at faster and faster rates, but that seems unlikely to compensate for huge numbers).
Here's a Pew article from this April that doesn't just discuss Mexican immigrants. The total is basically flat since 2009, and an increasing share are long-term residents (which would not really be expected if we were seeming huge booms in illegal immigrant numbers, though small increases could offset that).
|
Outside of the political problems with the wall I'm still interested on where exactly they plan on building it.
Because if they want a tight frontier they will have to build it alongside the Rio Grande as well which is the physical border between the countries ; and if they do, they will either have to build it on Mexican soil and effectively take the Rio Grande or build it on the US side and give up the river to Mexico despite its incredibly important economical value.
|
On May 12 2017 01:10 Diavlo wrote:
Outside of the political problems with the wall I'm still interested on where exactly they plan on building it.
Because if they want a tight frontier they will have to build it alongside the Rio Grande as well which is the physical border between the countries ; and if they do, they will either have to build it on Mexican soil and effectively take the Rio Grande or build it on the US side and give up the river to Mexico despite its incredibly important economical value.
Has Trump every acknowledged that he knows the Rio Grande river exists as part of the border?
It sounds like a sarcastic question, but I mean that sincerely.
EDIT: Found it after some digging: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/donald-trump-1/2017/04/28/trump-concedes-big-beautiful-border-wall-will-certain-areas
President Donald Trump said Friday that his long-desired wall on the U.S.-Mexico border will be in "certain areas." He said "you don't need" it where "you have these massive physical structures" or "you have certain big rivers."
Not by name, but good enough.
|
On May 12 2017 01:07 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2017 01:03 Trainrunnef wrote:On May 12 2017 00:56 Tachion wrote:On May 12 2017 00:41 ShoCkeyy wrote:On May 12 2017 00:12 Tachion wrote:On May 11 2017 23:54 KwarK wrote:On May 11 2017 19:11 HalcyonRain wrote:On May 11 2017 18:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
The U.S. needs a much stricter immigration system. Copying Canada's merit based system would be a good start. To candidate Trump's credit, he was the only person in either primary even willing to raise these issues. The mass importation of the Third World has got to end. It is destroying the social fabric of this country. From what I understand we actually DO have a quite strict immigration system that takes a long long time to get through. The problem is the illegal immigration. Obama found it politically expedient to try to forgive a lot of the illegal immigrants and give them citizenship, although I don't know the details. From a political standpoint that was a very good move for the democrat party, as those people will very likely vote democrat the rest of their lives, both because it was a democrat that gave them a free pass, and that it's very likely they're on the poorer side and need gov assistance. I believe part of Obama's executive orders, in essence, stopped immigration enforcement, whereas Trump has now started to enforce the law and may be turning illegals back at the southern US border. Whether this does anything or not, who knows. Hispanics are generally super pro-life and socially conservative. Hispanics still vote democrat though. As a hispanic, I regret to inform you that it's not true. While a large number do vote democrat, I say about 40% vote republican. I grew up republican, and move more center as I grew. Shit in Miami you find a lot, and I mean A LOT of republicans still. Also another thing, it's not just Mexicans that cross the border, Cubans have been arriving to Venezuela and riding up to the Texas border lately instead of boating since it's easier to leave Cuba to go to Venezuela all the sudden. Which I definitely think the Cuban government is behind what's going on in Venezuela right now. They do definitely tend to vote Republican more than other minorities that's for sure. Pew had Hillary taking 66% of the Latino vote, which is down from Obamas 71% in 2012, but it's still very safe for democrats to rely on a significant majority of their votes. At least until the Republicans start changing their platform as others have stated. Part of the problem is looking at Hispanics as a monolithic group. we are not homogeneous. Cubans and Mexicans are extremely conservative, much more-so than some others. don't fall into the trap of looking at over 15 different countries as similar just because of the language (which is very different as well when you look at pronunciation and colloquial speech). Yea reading through some of this is surprising for sure, like how More Cubans voted for Trump than Hillary in Florida. I didn't know it was that divided. Interesting!
One of the reasons is because they swear Bernie was going to be a dictator just like Castro... And all they talked about was Hillary's emails... What a load of horse shit. That's what happens when they're ignorant and listen to the news all day. I have to fight with my grandma about what to believe, and what not to believe from the news, cause they really perpetuate fear...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
