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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 7484

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
May 10 2017 02:37 GMT
#149661
What if the next fbi appointment turns down the job lol. That would be hilarious
Question.?
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-10 02:38:28
May 10 2017 02:37 GMT
#149662
On May 10 2017 10:17 xDaunt wrote:
1) Trump fired Comey either for a) legitimate reasons, or b) to cover up the investigation (an illegitimate reason).

There's also possibility c) Trump fired Comey for illegitimate reasons that are unrelated to the Russia investigation. I'm also skeptical of the assumption that Trump firing Comey means Trump is guilty, but that doesn't mean I'm automatically assuming that Trump's reason for firing Comey is therefore legitimate. It seems more likely to me that Trump is firing Comey for some dumb reason and just happens to be oblivious of how bad the timing of this makes him look.
Moderator
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 10 2017 02:41 GMT
#149663
On May 10 2017 11:37 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2017 10:17 xDaunt wrote:
1) Trump fired Comey either for a) legitimate reasons, or b) to cover up the investigation (an illegitimate reason).

There's also possibility c) Trump fired Comey for illegitimate reasons that are unrelated to the Russia investigation. I'm also skeptical of the assumption that Trump firing Comey means Trump is guilty, but that doesn't mean I'm automatically assuming that Trump's reason for firing Comey is therefore legitimate. It seems more likely to me that Trump is firing Comey for some dumb reason and just happens to be oblivious of how bad the timing of this makes him look.

Yeah, there could be other, unknown illicit reasons for why Trump canned Comey, but the running narrative around here is that it must have something to do with the Russia investigation, so that's the one that I singled out for scrutiny.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
May 10 2017 02:45 GMT
#149664
I'd personally sidestep the Russia issue specifically and say that this has all the signs of a highly political firing. The stated logic doesn't line up at all.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44440 Posts
May 10 2017 02:50 GMT
#149665
On May 10 2017 11:37 biology]major wrote:
What if the next fbi appointment turns down the job lol. That would be hilarious

On the one hand the White House would have to be incredibly incompetent to not ask the candidate if he wants it in private before announcing to avoid that kind of public humiliation. On the other hand, that's exactly what happened when they announced their candidate to replace Flynn.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44440 Posts
May 10 2017 02:51 GMT
#149666
On May 10 2017 11:45 LegalLord wrote:
I'd personally sidestep the Russia issue

Least shocking post here.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
May 10 2017 02:53 GMT
#149667
On May 10 2017 11:51 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2017 11:45 LegalLord wrote:
I'd personally sidestep the Russia issue

Least shocking post here.

You want to be a troll or you got something useful to add here?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 10 2017 02:59 GMT
#149668


This is a good sign. Nothing weird here.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
May 10 2017 03:00 GMT
#149669
On May 10 2017 11:53 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2017 11:51 KwarK wrote:
On May 10 2017 11:45 LegalLord wrote:
I'd personally sidestep the Russia issue

Least shocking post here.

You want to be a troll or you got something useful to add here?


No one is side stepping anything, shit is about to go down.
Life?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 10 2017 03:01 GMT
#149670
On May 10 2017 11:53 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2017 11:51 KwarK wrote:
On May 10 2017 11:45 LegalLord wrote:
I'd personally sidestep the Russia issue

Least shocking post here.

You want to be a troll or you got something useful to add here?

Translation: You are a Russian shill.

User was warned for this post
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
May 10 2017 03:03 GMT
#149671
On May 10 2017 12:00 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2017 11:53 LegalLord wrote:
On May 10 2017 11:51 KwarK wrote:
On May 10 2017 11:45 LegalLord wrote:
I'd personally sidestep the Russia issue

Least shocking post here.

You want to be a troll or you got something useful to add here?


No one is side stepping anything, shit is about to go down.

Let me word it a little differently: whether it's about Russia or not this is quite clearly a political firing.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-10 03:10:23
May 10 2017 03:08 GMT
#149672
On May 10 2017 10:55 eviltomahawk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2017 10:17 xDaunt wrote:
On May 10 2017 10:03 ChristianS wrote:
On May 10 2017 09:47 xDaunt wrote:
On May 10 2017 09:42 ChristianS wrote:
Serious question for those ITT who think Trump was justified on this one (so far, xDaunt and Danglars are in this category at least). What possible explanation is there for this happening right now? There's an ongoing investigation into matters that implicate Trump's campaign, and Comey is set to testify to Congress about the investigation tomorrow. All of the rationales for his firing offered by the administration are events from last year.

I figured the juicier allegations about Trump were probably false just because reality isn't usually that excitingk but I'm seriously wondering now, why would he do this if there wasn't something to hide?

There are any number of reasons why Trump would get rid of Comey now, some of which are set forth in the letters attached to Trump's termination letter. I'm not going to pretend to know why Trump did it. However, I find it highly amusing that so many are jumping to the conclusion that Comey's termination is the product of some nefarious motive of Trump's to halt whatever investigation is going on into Trump's campaign or other affairs of his. If anything, I find this particular conclusion to be one of the hardest to believe. Trump simply isn't that stupid.

Wait wait wait I need to walk through this one. You're starting from the assumption that Trump is smart. Because he's smart, he obviously knows that firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump is going to make everyone think he's guilty. If he was guilty, he would obviously never do that. So therefore Trump firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump clearly proves that he's not guilty.

Did I miss any steps in that logic, or is that pretty much it?


No, you pretty much have it backwards. There's a critical difference between presuming that someone is above a certain threshold of stupidity and then presuming that someone is smart. The logic is basically this:

1) Trump fired Comey either for a) legitimate reasons, or b) to cover up the investigation (an illegitimate reason).
2) Trump would only have reason to fire Comey to cover up the investigation if there was something to that investigation.
3) However, if there is something to the investigation, then firing Comey won't stop the investigation.
4) Only someone who is really stupid wouldn't understand Point 3 and would try to fire Comey to stop the investigation.
5) I find it highly unlikely that Trump is stupid enough to not understand Point 3.
6) For this reason, I think that it is more likely that than not that Trump fired Comey for legitimate reasons.

The question is, what are those legitimate reasons? It's stated in the letters that the primary reason for the firing is due to the Clinton email investigation. While they can cite that investigation as a legitimate reason, it did occur last year, so what could have changed between inauguration and now regarding that investigation that would've prompted the firing? The timing seems awfully fishy because of that, which could be indicative of some other, unstated reasons for the firing that we can only speculate on.


The main problem for Trump and Sessions is all the video of them contradicting the reasoning in the letters. At best this move is complete buffoonery, but we definitely need a special prosecutor.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 10 2017 03:20 GMT
#149673
Four GOP Senators already out in support of the firing. Also, can you imagine the grilling of Trump's replacement from the Senate? I seriously cannot wait.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
May 10 2017 03:27 GMT
#149674
Donny finally weighs in on the true presidential messaging platform, twitter:



Meanwhile, the AHCA still has things going on :



Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7393 Posts
May 10 2017 03:36 GMT
#149675
I wonder if he'd try and leverage his power as president in some way if he got banned from Twitter.
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-10 03:46:18
May 10 2017 03:46 GMT
#149676
On May 10 2017 11:41 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2017 11:37 TheYango wrote:
On May 10 2017 10:17 xDaunt wrote:
1) Trump fired Comey either for a) legitimate reasons, or b) to cover up the investigation (an illegitimate reason).

There's also possibility c) Trump fired Comey for illegitimate reasons that are unrelated to the Russia investigation. I'm also skeptical of the assumption that Trump firing Comey means Trump is guilty, but that doesn't mean I'm automatically assuming that Trump's reason for firing Comey is therefore legitimate. It seems more likely to me that Trump is firing Comey for some dumb reason and just happens to be oblivious of how bad the timing of this makes him look.

Yeah, there could be other, unknown illicit reasons for why Trump canned Comey, but the running narrative around here is that it must have something to do with the Russia investigation, so that's the one that I singled out for scrutiny.


Weren't you the one who said "trump isn't stupid"? You just acknowledged that regardless of reasoning (and i can't wait to hear it, since everything "official" currently is pure bullshit), this was stupid.

Or do you think "the running narrative" is only popular here, nowhere else? It's so obvious that this would happen. So either, he wanted that shitstorm to hide/push something, or he's an idiot. The sad part is, you actually can't tell because both are rather possible. Not to mention, it seems quite awkward to accept that there's quite the possibility for other unknown illicit reasons, but russia? That is absolutely impossible. And shame on anyone who immediately makes the connection, since it's so incredibly far-fetched. Fake news! Sad!
On track to MA1950A.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 10 2017 03:49 GMT
#149677
The more James Comey showed up on television discussing the FBI’s investigation into possible ties between the Trump campaign and Russia, the more the White House bristled, according to aides to President Donald Trump.

Frustration was growing among top associates of the president that Mr. Comey, in a series of appearances before a Senate panel, wouldn’t publicly tamp down questions about possible collusion with Russian interference in the 2016 presidential race. A person with knowledge of recent conversations said they wanted Mr. Comey to “say those three little words: ‘There’s no ties.’”

In the months before his decision to dismiss Mr. Comey as head of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Trump grew unhappy that the media spotlight kept shining on the director. He viewed Mr. Comey as eager to step in front of TV cameras and questioned whether his expanding media profile was warping his view of the Russia investigation, the officials said.


www.wsj.com
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 10 2017 04:00 GMT
#149678
Just imagine

LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
May 10 2017 04:05 GMT
#149679
Probably not far from what the Democratic majority would do if a Rep President fired an FBI director who was investigating his campaign's collusion with Putin's Russia.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3304 Posts
May 10 2017 04:08 GMT
#149680
On May 10 2017 10:17 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2017 10:03 ChristianS wrote:
On May 10 2017 09:47 xDaunt wrote:
On May 10 2017 09:42 ChristianS wrote:
Serious question for those ITT who think Trump was justified on this one (so far, xDaunt and Danglars are in this category at least). What possible explanation is there for this happening right now? There's an ongoing investigation into matters that implicate Trump's campaign, and Comey is set to testify to Congress about the investigation tomorrow. All of the rationales for his firing offered by the administration are events from last year.

I figured the juicier allegations about Trump were probably false just because reality isn't usually that excitingk but I'm seriously wondering now, why would he do this if there wasn't something to hide?

There are any number of reasons why Trump would get rid of Comey now, some of which are set forth in the letters attached to Trump's termination letter. I'm not going to pretend to know why Trump did it. However, I find it highly amusing that so many are jumping to the conclusion that Comey's termination is the product of some nefarious motive of Trump's to halt whatever investigation is going on into Trump's campaign or other affairs of his. If anything, I find this particular conclusion to be one of the hardest to believe. Trump simply isn't that stupid.

Wait wait wait I need to walk through this one. You're starting from the assumption that Trump is smart. Because he's smart, he obviously knows that firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump is going to make everyone think he's guilty. If he was guilty, he would obviously never do that. So therefore Trump firing the FBI director in the middle of an ongoing investigation that implicates Trump clearly proves that he's not guilty.

Did I miss any steps in that logic, or is that pretty much it?


No, you pretty much have it backwards. There's a critical difference between presuming that someone is above a certain threshold of stupidity and then presuming that someone is smart. The logic is basically this:

1) Trump fired Comey either for a) legitimate reasons, or b) to cover up the investigation (an illegitimate reason).
2) Trump would only have reason to fire Comey to cover up the investigation if there was something to that investigation.
3) However, if there is something to the investigation, then firing Comey won't stop the investigation.
4) Only someone who is really stupid wouldn't understand Point 3 and would try to fire Comey to stop the investigation.
5) I find it highly unlikely that Trump is stupid enough to not understand Point 3.
6) For this reason, I think that it is more likely that than not that Trump fired Comey for legitimate reasons.

Just wanted to make sure we weren't going full "this looks super incriminating, which is why he's OBVIOUSLY not guilty."

Okay, so followup question. Nixon was happy to fire people investigating him to try to impede the investigation. Was Nixon too dumb to understand point 3?
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
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