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On March 23 2017 04:15 Plansix wrote:
The information gathered has to do with US citizens and it is in the public due to reporting by the press. They need a warrant to tap US citizen’s phones, so he has to explain exactly how this information was gathered. Especially because it has to do with the election.
The government controls what is classified and what isn’t. If the house members want to know exactly how the NSA got all this info on the Trump campaign, they have all the power to do so. And they clearly care a lot. And they are willing to share some of that information with the press to set the record straight.
Yea but do they then have the power to just speak publicly about it? I'm just imagining these questions asked to Comey in the hearing and him saying "Lol yea not gonna comment on that".
Not only did nunes comment on the details of an ongoing investigation (multiple people in trum campaign surveilled), he also went out of his way to then specifically state trump was one of the unmasked names. ??
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On March 23 2017 04:17 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2017 04:15 Plansix wrote:
The information gathered has to do with US citizens and it is in the public due to reporting by the press. They need a warrant to tap US citizen’s phones, so he has to explain exactly how this information was gathered. Especially because it has to do with the election.
The government controls what is classified and what isn’t. If the house members want to know exactly how the NSA got all this info on the Trump campaign, they have all the power to do so. And they clearly care a lot. And they are willing to share some of that information with the press to set the record straight.
Yea but do they then have the power to just speak publicly about it? I'm just imagining these questions asked to Comey in the hearing and him saying "Lol yea not gonna comment on that".
The House and the Senate created the CIA, FBI and NSA. They wrote the laws that govern those agencies. If they feel that they need to release some small amount classified information to reassure the American public, they have to ability to work with those agencies to do so.
Information doesn’t become classified or stop secret all on its own. People in the government give it that status. They can remove it too. Have no doubt that the members of congress and their counsels already discussed what they can and cannot talk about with the press.
I also don’t know if an FBI investigation is technically classified. It is privileged information that the FBI doesn’t comment on. But that is their policy, not law. One the info is out there in a public hearing, the members of congress have to answer questions.
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Terror attack in London apparently. Get ready for the brimstone from Trump.
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On March 23 2017 03:45 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2017 02:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On March 23 2017 02:20 KwarK wrote:
It's the Trump voters who depend on benefits who stand around going "well I knew he was going to cut benefits but I didn't think it'd be my benefits". This. This so fucking much. There needs to be accountability for people who do this kind of shit. You not only harm yourselves by naive voting and below standard knowledge of any given policy, but you literally harm millions more. I don't think I can take hearing someone complain if they get their wish for ACA to be repealed and replace with something worse. Yes,voting for the wrong person is a serious issue in todays democracy. Maybe people who vote wrong should get a fine so that they will vote right the next election, and 3 times voting wrong you are out. lifetime in jail. The arrogance to think that a vote can be wrong,you don't know the reasons why those people voted.
it's stupid to think that a vote can't be wrong.
People often have and state reasons for their votes, and it's not uncommon for those reasons to be things that don't hold up to scrutiny, or are based in things that are provably factually false.
there's also a lot of stated information as to why people have voted in various ways (of course what people really want vs what they claim to want does make it tricky)
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United States42788 Posts
On March 23 2017 04:42 On_Slaught wrote:
Terror attack in London apparently. Get ready for the brimstone from Trump.
That's pretty optimistic. I'm assuming something along the lines of "Called it! So many losers attacking my travel ban because they're sad but this is what happens when you elect a Muslim mayor. #BanMuslims #Trump2020"
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My prediction: "Terrible news in London, prayers go out to vitcims and their families. Need to be tougher/stronger!"
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On March 23 2017 03:49 Velr wrote:
If large parts of the people constantly vote against their own interest and the very stuff that makes their lifes possible because they are not capable or willing to understand for what/who they actually vote, thats a giant problem for a democracy.
Yes but it is also a sort of safeguard. It means that the politicians should keep the people happy so that they wont vote for fringe partys. If you keep the people happy then they don't want the status quo to change. But if you don't manage to keep them more or less happ,,then they will want to change the status quo and possible vote against their own interests. Well that is how I see it.
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On March 23 2017 04:43 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2017 03:45 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 02:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On March 23 2017 02:20 KwarK wrote:
It's the Trump voters who depend on benefits who stand around going "well I knew he was going to cut benefits but I didn't think it'd be my benefits". This. This so fucking much. There needs to be accountability for people who do this kind of shit. You not only harm yourselves by naive voting and below standard knowledge of any given policy, but you literally harm millions more. I don't think I can take hearing someone complain if they get their wish for ACA to be repealed and replace with something worse. Yes,voting for the wrong person is a serious issue in todays democracy. Maybe people who vote wrong should get a fine so that they will vote right the next election, and 3 times voting wrong you are out. lifetime in jail. The arrogance to think that a vote can be wrong,you don't know the reasons why those people voted. it's stupid to think that a vote can't be wrong. People often have and state reasons for their votes, and it's not uncommon for those reasons to be things that don't hold up to scrutiny, or are based in things that are provably factually false. there's also a lot of stated information as to why people have voted in various ways (of course what people really want vs what they claim to want does make it tricky)
Not everyone votes by partyprogram,comparing all pro,s and con,s of all the partys. People also vote for other reasons,like for example being unhappy with the status quo. Who am I to say that their reason for voting is wrong?
That is the whole point of voting,you can vote what you want for whatever reason.
Voting by party program is risky as well,as politicians often break promises. It then becomes difficult to make a good choice for people and in the end when they lost trust in politics in general they start voting for other reasons. It is the politicians themselves that are to blame for this,by managing to lose the trust of some of the voters.
I think this is a nice safeguard. Keep the people satisfied and this wont be an issue.
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On March 23 2017 04:59 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2017 04:43 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 03:45 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 02:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On March 23 2017 02:20 KwarK wrote:
It's the Trump voters who depend on benefits who stand around going "well I knew he was going to cut benefits but I didn't think it'd be my benefits". This. This so fucking much. There needs to be accountability for people who do this kind of shit. You not only harm yourselves by naive voting and below standard knowledge of any given policy, but you literally harm millions more. I don't think I can take hearing someone complain if they get their wish for ACA to be repealed and replace with something worse. Yes,voting for the wrong person is a serious issue in todays democracy. Maybe people who vote wrong should get a fine so that they will vote right the next election, and 3 times voting wrong you are out. lifetime in jail. The arrogance to think that a vote can be wrong,you don't know the reasons why those people voted. it's stupid to think that a vote can't be wrong. People often have and state reasons for their votes, and it's not uncommon for those reasons to be things that don't hold up to scrutiny, or are based in things that are provably factually false. there's also a lot of stated information as to why people have voted in various ways (of course what people really want vs what they claim to want does make it tricky) Not everyone votes by partyprogram,comparing all pro,s and con,s of all the partys. People also vote for other reasons,like for example being unhappy with the status quo. Who am I to say that their reason for voting is wrong? That is the whole point of voting,you can vote what you want for whatever reason.
you completely ignored my point; therefore your counter is irrelevant and my point stands.
and even setting that aside, we can say their voting is wrong because it does not accomplish their objectives or lead to a good outcome.
the voters are not blameless, not remotely. while politicians do have considerable blame, they are who they are because that's what people vote for. the voters have considerable blame as well, for their own choices which they freely make.
your opinion on its safeguardness is worthless, as you've obviously not studied the issue that closely, or compared to alternative methods that much. voting does have some value as a system, but it's far from perfect. the book in my sig has a lot more detail if you want scholarly assessment on it.
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On March 23 2017 05:02 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2017 04:59 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 04:43 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 03:45 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 02:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On March 23 2017 02:20 KwarK wrote:
It's the Trump voters who depend on benefits who stand around going "well I knew he was going to cut benefits but I didn't think it'd be my benefits". This. This so fucking much. There needs to be accountability for people who do this kind of shit. You not only harm yourselves by naive voting and below standard knowledge of any given policy, but you literally harm millions more. I don't think I can take hearing someone complain if they get their wish for ACA to be repealed and replace with something worse. Yes,voting for the wrong person is a serious issue in todays democracy. Maybe people who vote wrong should get a fine so that they will vote right the next election, and 3 times voting wrong you are out. lifetime in jail. The arrogance to think that a vote can be wrong,you don't know the reasons why those people voted. it's stupid to think that a vote can't be wrong. People often have and state reasons for their votes, and it's not uncommon for those reasons to be things that don't hold up to scrutiny, or are based in things that are provably factually false. there's also a lot of stated information as to why people have voted in various ways (of course what people really want vs what they claim to want does make it tricky) Not everyone votes by partyprogram,comparing all pro,s and con,s of all the partys. People also vote for other reasons,like for example being unhappy with the status quo. Who am I to say that their reason for voting is wrong? That is the whole point of voting,you can vote what you want for whatever reason. you completely ignored my point; therefore your counter is irrelevant and my point stands. and even setting that aside, we can say their voting is wrong because it does not accomplish their objectives or lead to a good outcome.
I don't think we understand eachoter. You don't know what their motives are,that is my point. Many People vote based on feelings,or very vague reasons. They just want to make a statement, "I have had enough of this" If that is their reason then who am I to say their reason is wrong?
Polling is unreliable,and when ask people why they voted for someone they don't like to come with vague reasons or feelings (though some do). Many people will start to make up reasons that might seem sensible as why they did vote for a certain person.
You ask people to give reasons and then you want to dissect all those reasons and show them that they wont accomplish their objective. But that is not the way how the many of the lower class or lower educated decides upon their vote. Like what about protest votes? they don't have any other objective then to send a message "enough of this" That is their objective,to send a message and to show their discontent.
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On March 23 2017 05:04 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2017 05:02 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 04:59 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 04:43 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 03:45 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 02:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On March 23 2017 02:20 KwarK wrote:
It's the Trump voters who depend on benefits who stand around going "well I knew he was going to cut benefits but I didn't think it'd be my benefits". This. This so fucking much. There needs to be accountability for people who do this kind of shit. You not only harm yourselves by naive voting and below standard knowledge of any given policy, but you literally harm millions more. I don't think I can take hearing someone complain if they get their wish for ACA to be repealed and replace with something worse. Yes,voting for the wrong person is a serious issue in todays democracy. Maybe people who vote wrong should get a fine so that they will vote right the next election, and 3 times voting wrong you are out. lifetime in jail. The arrogance to think that a vote can be wrong,you don't know the reasons why those people voted. it's stupid to think that a vote can't be wrong. People often have and state reasons for their votes, and it's not uncommon for those reasons to be things that don't hold up to scrutiny, or are based in things that are provably factually false. there's also a lot of stated information as to why people have voted in various ways (of course what people really want vs what they claim to want does make it tricky) Not everyone votes by partyprogram,comparing all pro,s and con,s of all the partys. People also vote for other reasons,like for example being unhappy with the status quo. Who am I to say that their reason for voting is wrong? That is the whole point of voting,you can vote what you want for whatever reason. you completely ignored my point; therefore your counter is irrelevant and my point stands. and even setting that aside, we can say their voting is wrong because it does not accomplish their objectives or lead to a good outcome. I don't think we understand eachoter. You don't know what their objectives are,that is my point. Polling is unreliable already,as this election did show. And then when asking for peoples motives then it becomes even more unreliable. Many People vote based on feelings,but they don't want to say that in an intervieuw so they start making up reasons why they voted for a certain party.
no, I understand you, you re simply wrong a bunch of the time.
People sometimes do give extensive interviews and articles explaining why they did what they did. And sometimes, there reasons simply do NOT hold up to scrutiny, or depend on things that are factually and provably false.
I can agree that people mostly vote based on feelings, rather than things like who would actually do a better job or is best for the country, which is not a good thing. it does not lead to sound decisions. and there's more than enough room to establish that some things are sound and some aren't and that some voting patterns fall outside that difference.
edit : it's irksome when we keep edit changing our answers after someone is already responding to them, it makes the chain fo discussion confusing.
2nd edit: "wrong" requires some moral standard which may be tricky to discuss; but we can certainly establish things like a vote may be "destructive" or, cause deaths/suffering, or does not accomplish certain stated objectives of the people who made it.
3rd edit: please don't edit your post AFTER someone has already responded to it, that really muddies the conversation. just use reply.
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Sometimes I eat three pieces of cake because I’m having a bad day. It is still a pretty poor decision, even if my feelings were the motive.
We can’t promote personal responsibility and then say everyone is blameless for who they voted for because their heart was in the right place.
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On March 23 2017 05:07 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2017 05:04 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 05:02 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 04:59 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 04:43 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 03:45 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 02:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On March 23 2017 02:20 KwarK wrote:
It's the Trump voters who depend on benefits who stand around going "well I knew he was going to cut benefits but I didn't think it'd be my benefits". This. This so fucking much. There needs to be accountability for people who do this kind of shit. You not only harm yourselves by naive voting and below standard knowledge of any given policy, but you literally harm millions more. I don't think I can take hearing someone complain if they get their wish for ACA to be repealed and replace with something worse. Yes,voting for the wrong person is a serious issue in todays democracy. Maybe people who vote wrong should get a fine so that they will vote right the next election, and 3 times voting wrong you are out. lifetime in jail. The arrogance to think that a vote can be wrong,you don't know the reasons why those people voted. it's stupid to think that a vote can't be wrong. People often have and state reasons for their votes, and it's not uncommon for those reasons to be things that don't hold up to scrutiny, or are based in things that are provably factually false. there's also a lot of stated information as to why people have voted in various ways (of course what people really want vs what they claim to want does make it tricky) Not everyone votes by partyprogram,comparing all pro,s and con,s of all the partys. People also vote for other reasons,like for example being unhappy with the status quo. Who am I to say that their reason for voting is wrong? That is the whole point of voting,you can vote what you want for whatever reason. you completely ignored my point; therefore your counter is irrelevant and my point stands. and even setting that aside, we can say their voting is wrong because it does not accomplish their objectives or lead to a good outcome. I don't think we understand eachoter. You don't know what their objectives are,that is my point. Polling is unreliable already,as this election did show. And then when asking for peoples motives then it becomes even more unreliable. Many People vote based on feelings,but they don't want to say that in an intervieuw so they start making up reasons why they voted for a certain party. no, I understand you, you re simply wrong a bunch of the time. People sometimes do give extensive interviews and articles explaining why they did what they did. And sometimes, there reasons simply do NOT hold up to scrutiny, or depend on things that are factually and provably false. I can agree that people mostly vote based on feelings, rather than things like who would actually do a better job or is best for the country, which is not a good thing. it does not lead to sound decisions. and there's more than enough room to establish that some things are sound and some aren't and that some voting patterns fall outside that difference. edit : it's irksome when we keep edit changing our answers after someone is already responding to them, it makes the chain fo discussion confusing. 2nd edit: "wrong" requires some moral standard which may be tricky to discuss; but we can certainly establish things like a vote may be "destructive" or, cause deaths/suffering, or does not accomplish certain stated objectives of the people who made it.
This conversation is probably pointless,i don't think you want to see my point and even if you would see it you would not admit it but instead go on about how what I say is wrong,without actually addressing anything I said. I will stop here.
My point is basicly that a vote can not be wrong per definition. People have their reasons for a vote,often a mixed bag of reasons. Not everyone understands all the consequences of their vote,i would say almost no one does. That does not make their vote wrong.
done editing now. (I edit before I see your response btw,i just write my post and then edit it a bit while I think about it.)
one more edit lol:people also give a ton of reasons when asked why they voted a certain way,but that does not say much about how much they weigh each and every reason individually. Like people vote trump reason 1:discontent with traditional policy and discontent in general, a protest vote. Then they have a ton of other reasons but they all together might be less important then the first reason. You don't know that and polling this is near impossible. people don't like to give "stupid" reasons in general.
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Look at Brexit. That should be the prime example of an under-educated populace voting on something they didn't understand. I'm not saying they can't vote, but we need to step up the information and education of the populace. Anything Trump said during the campaign could have been proven impossible or too big for him to tackle with a little research and understanding of the current political climate. I'm not saying Clinton would have accomplished everything she set out to do nor Sanders. But lesser of two evils is the game we play here.
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On March 23 2017 05:13 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2017 05:07 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 05:04 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 05:02 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 04:59 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 04:43 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 03:45 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 02:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On March 23 2017 02:20 KwarK wrote:
It's the Trump voters who depend on benefits who stand around going "well I knew he was going to cut benefits but I didn't think it'd be my benefits". This. This so fucking much. There needs to be accountability for people who do this kind of shit. You not only harm yourselves by naive voting and below standard knowledge of any given policy, but you literally harm millions more. I don't think I can take hearing someone complain if they get their wish for ACA to be repealed and replace with something worse. Yes,voting for the wrong person is a serious issue in todays democracy. Maybe people who vote wrong should get a fine so that they will vote right the next election, and 3 times voting wrong you are out. lifetime in jail. The arrogance to think that a vote can be wrong,you don't know the reasons why those people voted. it's stupid to think that a vote can't be wrong. People often have and state reasons for their votes, and it's not uncommon for those reasons to be things that don't hold up to scrutiny, or are based in things that are provably factually false. there's also a lot of stated information as to why people have voted in various ways (of course what people really want vs what they claim to want does make it tricky) Not everyone votes by partyprogram,comparing all pro,s and con,s of all the partys. People also vote for other reasons,like for example being unhappy with the status quo. Who am I to say that their reason for voting is wrong? That is the whole point of voting,you can vote what you want for whatever reason. you completely ignored my point; therefore your counter is irrelevant and my point stands. and even setting that aside, we can say their voting is wrong because it does not accomplish their objectives or lead to a good outcome. I don't think we understand eachoter. You don't know what their objectives are,that is my point. Polling is unreliable already,as this election did show. And then when asking for peoples motives then it becomes even more unreliable. Many People vote based on feelings,but they don't want to say that in an intervieuw so they start making up reasons why they voted for a certain party. no, I understand you, you re simply wrong a bunch of the time. People sometimes do give extensive interviews and articles explaining why they did what they did. And sometimes, there reasons simply do NOT hold up to scrutiny, or depend on things that are factually and provably false. I can agree that people mostly vote based on feelings, rather than things like who would actually do a better job or is best for the country, which is not a good thing. it does not lead to sound decisions. and there's more than enough room to establish that some things are sound and some aren't and that some voting patterns fall outside that difference. edit : it's irksome when we keep edit changing our answers after someone is already responding to them, it makes the chain fo discussion confusing. 2nd edit: "wrong" requires some moral standard which may be tricky to discuss; but we can certainly establish things like a vote may be "destructive" or, cause deaths/suffering, or does not accomplish certain stated objectives of the people who made it. This conversation is probably pointless,i don't think you want to see my point and even if you would see it you would not admit it but instead go on about how what I say is wrong,without actually addressing anything I said. I will stop here.
no, I see your points, but you just don't understand the systemic effects or choose to ignore it.
And/or you're likely looking at a different layer of analysis.
Voting out the current government because of a natural disaster isn't a very good system. (this means entirely because of a natural disaster, not because of an actual poor response or some other poor action by the government, but entirely 100% simply because a random natural disaster occurred).
PS the book really explains this stuff well, if you want to actually learn stuff on the topic go read it.
PPS a vote can certainly be "wrong" if you have ANY sort of ethical framework to determine rightness or wrongness. obvoiusly if you have no ethical framework it can't be wrong. but with many ethical framework, including the ones based on the enlightenment on which the theory of democracy is in fact based, you can in fact vote wrong. You've also completely ignored the numerous factual case points raised.
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On March 23 2017 05:15 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Look at Brexit. That should be the prime example of an under-educated populace voting on something they didn't understand. I'm not saying they can't vote, but we need to step up the information and education of the populace. Anything Trump said during the campaign could have been proven impossible or too big for him to tackle with a little research and understanding of the current political climate. I'm not saying Clinton would have accomplished everything she set out to do nor Sanders. But lesser of two evils is the game we play here.
You can't teach someone who does not want to learn.
(almost) everything Trump said was proven to be a lie but people didn't care. You can't educate those people, they only learn the stove is hot after they touched it. And even after burning their hand many will blame someone else for turning it on.
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On March 23 2017 05:22 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2017 05:15 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Look at Brexit. That should be the prime example of an under-educated populace voting on something they didn't understand. I'm not saying they can't vote, but we need to step up the information and education of the populace. Anything Trump said during the campaign could have been proven impossible or too big for him to tackle with a little research and understanding of the current political climate. I'm not saying Clinton would have accomplished everything she set out to do nor Sanders. But lesser of two evils is the game we play here. You can't teach someone who does not want to learn. (almost) everything Trump said was proven to be a lie but people didn't care. You can't educate those people, they only learn the stove is hot after they touched it. And even after burning their hand many will blame someone else for turning it on.
Its similar to how big business was able to hijack evangelicals into voting republican. Take an idea/concept that you know is already somewhat present in a group of people, then find a way to connect it with something else. As a result, big businesses were able to recruit evangelicals into thinking protecting big business is totally analogous to religious freedom and cultural preservation. Trump was able to leverage anti-elitist sentiment, brand himself as an outsider, then use American admiration of wealth to convince people he was uniquely capable of taking down elite responsible for sucking wages out of the country.
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On March 23 2017 05:16 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2017 05:13 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 05:07 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 05:04 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 05:02 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 04:59 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 04:43 zlefin wrote:On March 23 2017 03:45 pmh wrote:On March 23 2017 02:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On March 23 2017 02:20 KwarK wrote:
It's the Trump voters who depend on benefits who stand around going "well I knew he was going to cut benefits but I didn't think it'd be my benefits". This. This so fucking much. There needs to be accountability for people who do this kind of shit. You not only harm yourselves by naive voting and below standard knowledge of any given policy, but you literally harm millions more. I don't think I can take hearing someone complain if they get their wish for ACA to be repealed and replace with something worse. Yes,voting for the wrong person is a serious issue in todays democracy. Maybe people who vote wrong should get a fine so that they will vote right the next election, and 3 times voting wrong you are out. lifetime in jail. The arrogance to think that a vote can be wrong,you don't know the reasons why those people voted. it's stupid to think that a vote can't be wrong. People often have and state reasons for their votes, and it's not uncommon for those reasons to be things that don't hold up to scrutiny, or are based in things that are provably factually false. there's also a lot of stated information as to why people have voted in various ways (of course what people really want vs what they claim to want does make it tricky) Not everyone votes by partyprogram,comparing all pro,s and con,s of all the partys. People also vote for other reasons,like for example being unhappy with the status quo. Who am I to say that their reason for voting is wrong? That is the whole point of voting,you can vote what you want for whatever reason. you completely ignored my point; therefore your counter is irrelevant and my point stands. and even setting that aside, we can say their voting is wrong because it does not accomplish their objectives or lead to a good outcome. I don't think we understand eachoter. You don't know what their objectives are,that is my point. Polling is unreliable already,as this election did show. And then when asking for peoples motives then it becomes even more unreliable. Many People vote based on feelings,but they don't want to say that in an intervieuw so they start making up reasons why they voted for a certain party. no, I understand you, you re simply wrong a bunch of the time. People sometimes do give extensive interviews and articles explaining why they did what they did. And sometimes, there reasons simply do NOT hold up to scrutiny, or depend on things that are factually and provably false. I can agree that people mostly vote based on feelings, rather than things like who would actually do a better job or is best for the country, which is not a good thing. it does not lead to sound decisions. and there's more than enough room to establish that some things are sound and some aren't and that some voting patterns fall outside that difference. edit : it's irksome when we keep edit changing our answers after someone is already responding to them, it makes the chain fo discussion confusing. 2nd edit: "wrong" requires some moral standard which may be tricky to discuss; but we can certainly establish things like a vote may be "destructive" or, cause deaths/suffering, or does not accomplish certain stated objectives of the people who made it. This conversation is probably pointless,i don't think you want to see my point and even if you would see it you would not admit it but instead go on about how what I say is wrong,without actually addressing anything I said. I will stop here. no, I see your points, but you just don't understand the systemic effects or choose to ignore it. And/or you're likely looking at a different layer of analysis. Voting out the current government because of a natural disaster isn't a very good system. (this means entirely because of a natural disaster, not because of an actual poor response or some other poor action by the government, but entirely 100% simply because a random natural disaster occurred). PS the book really explains this stuff well, if you want to actually learn stuff on the topic go read it. PPS a vote can certainly be "wrong" if you have ANY sort of ethical framework to determine rightness or wrongness. obvoiusly if you have no ethical framework it can't be wrong. but with many ethical framework, including the ones based on the enlightenment on which the theory of democracy is in fact based, you can in fact vote wrong. You've also completely ignored the numerous factual case points raised.
I am curious what you would suggest then to solve this problem with wrong votes that you see. Give people a set of questions they have to answer and give a certain weight, and then a machine determines what your vote is?
Would such a system leave room for a "protest" vote? or is a protest vote wrong per definition in your vieuw?
Thx for the book tip,i will read it as it is an interesting subject. While I have a strong sense of right and wrong myself,i think it is very difficult to proof right and wrong from a philosophical point of vieuw.(I am aware that some attempts have been made)
Anyway,i will read a bit more on this and might come back to it later on.
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On March 23 2017 05:26 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2017 05:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 23 2017 05:15 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Look at Brexit. That should be the prime example of an under-educated populace voting on something they didn't understand. I'm not saying they can't vote, but we need to step up the information and education of the populace. Anything Trump said during the campaign could have been proven impossible or too big for him to tackle with a little research and understanding of the current political climate. I'm not saying Clinton would have accomplished everything she set out to do nor Sanders. But lesser of two evils is the game we play here. You can't teach someone who does not want to learn. (almost) everything Trump said was proven to be a lie but people didn't care. You can't educate those people, they only learn the stove is hot after they touched it. And even after burning their hand many will blame someone else for turning it on. Its similar to how big business was able to hijack evangelicals into voting republican. Take an idea/concept that you know is already somewhat present in a group of people, then find a way to connect it with something else. As a result, big businesses were able to recruit evangelicals into thinking protecting big business is totally analogous to religious freedom and cultural preservation. Trump was able to leverage anti-elitist sentiment, brand himself as an outsider, then use American admiration of wealth to convince people he was uniquely capable of taking down elite responsible for sucking wages out of the country.
I agree with you both. That is what I was getting at but in a less elegant way.
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EPT
