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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 14 2017 01:37 GMT
#142261
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
March 14 2017 01:49 GMT
#142262
On March 14 2017 08:40 Aquanim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2017 08:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 14 2017 08:28 Jormundr wrote:
On March 14 2017 08:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On March 14 2017 08:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 14 2017 08:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On March 14 2017 08:08 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 14 2017 08:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On March 14 2017 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 14 2017 07:57 WolfintheSheep wrote:
[quote]
Cool.

Don't see what Hillary has to do with Bernie being able to deliver on his promises, but cool?


Because the supposition is that she would deliver, she didn't. So Bernie not delivering would be par for the course.

Well, that's a stunning endorsement then. Vote for Bernie because he's as bad a candidate as the one you despise.


Except he's not telling us healthcare isn't a right, that children escaping peril should be sent back to send a message to their parents, Honduras, taking 10's of millions from Wall Street, etc..

I don't accept your argument that he wouldn't get results, but my point is that even if that were the case, he's still better.

It's not like there's some alternative "results oriented" Democrat out there that they should instead be rallying around.


So yeah, vote for the guy telling the best story then. I don't doubt that he could win, Trump ran and won with the same principle.


You think Democrats would be able to get more or less done with Bernie as President as opposed to Trump?

Let's say you're right, Bernie's just telling a story, wouldn't it be better to have him in charge so the "results" Democrats could do the leg work of getting a better system passed?

Well, I didn't say Bernie would've won 2016 over Trump, or that he would have won Congress and Senate for the Democrats either.

But, uh, sure, I imagine having Bernie as a figurehead making big promises that actual policymakers have to make reality would be better. Certainly worked out for the Republicans.

So you're saying that you're glad you voted for Trump to be president.


That's what I'm reading there too. But he's Canadian, so just of that line of thinking.

I read it as either complete sarcasm, or an observation that the Republicans are getting some of what they want by putting Trump at their head to make the promises that they can ignore or (perhaps partially) enact at their leisure. Neither of those implies an actual endorsement of Trump or the Republicans' policies.

Well, I guess the perspective depends on if you think the Republicans have gained or lost from Trump's responses and policies thus far.

But I would say that thinking they can ignore Trump when he has so much popular support within the party line is naive.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 14 2017 02:15 GMT
#142263
Hope Spicer gets a good sleep tonight because this just broke:

The White House's own internal analysis of the GOP plan to repeal and replace Obamacare show even steeper coverage losses than the projections by the Congressional Budget Office, according to a document viewed by POLITICO on Monday.

The executive branch analysis forecast that 26 million people would lose coverage over the next decade, versus the 24 million CBO estimate — a finding that undermines White House efforts to discredit the forecasts from the nonpartisan CBO.

The analysis found that under the American Health Care Act the coverage losses would include 17 million for Medicaid, six million in the individual market and three million in employer-based plans.

A total of 54 million individuals would be uninsured in 2026 under the GOP plan, according to the White House analysis. That’s nearly double the number projected under current law.

White House spokesmen did not respond to requests for comment Monday evening.

The White House and congressional Republicans have aggressively sought to undercut the CBO projection by pointing to how far off its coverage estimates for the Affordable Care Act ultimately proved. The nonpartisan budget office predicted that 21 million individuals would gain coverage through the exchange markets in 2016, but only about half that many actually enrolled.

“We disagree strenuously with the report that was put out,” HHS Secretary Tom Price told reporters about the CBO after leaving a Cabinet meeting with Trump at the White House. “It’s just not believable is what we would suggest.” Price while serving as the House Budget Committee chairman had a role in appointing the current head of the CBO, a conservative economist.

But that effort to discredit CBO’s projections is undermined by the fact that the White House’s own analysis reached a similar — and slightly bleaker — conclusion about how the GOP plan would increase the number of uninsured Americans.

The document was not dated, but clearly referred to the bill currently being considered in the House. The bill was already under attack from both very conservative members who wanted it to go further, as well as moderates worried about coverage erosion particularly in Medicaid. The CBO number made the task of passing it even more challenging.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
March 14 2017 02:57 GMT
#142264
Strenuously backing Obamacare Lite is the first big strategic error that Trump has made. That plan is a turd. He would have been much better off sitting back and waiting for Congress to give him something ready to sign. He at least should have taken a non-committal position on the bill until had the chance to see what the public reaction would be. I suspect that Reince Priebus gave Trump some bad advice.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-14 02:59:05
March 14 2017 02:58 GMT
#142265
On March 14 2017 11:57 xDaunt wrote:
Strenuously backing Obamacare Lite is the first big strategic error that Trump has made. That plan is a turd. He would have been much better off sitting back and waiting for Congress to give him something ready to sign. He at least should have taken a non-committal position on the bill until had the chance to see what the public reaction would be. I suspect that Reince Priebus gave Trump some bad advice.


You think it was on accident?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-14 03:02:58
March 14 2017 03:02 GMT
#142266
On March 14 2017 11:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2017 11:57 xDaunt wrote:
Strenuously backing Obamacare Lite is the first big strategic error that Trump has made. That plan is a turd. He would have been much better off sitting back and waiting for Congress to give him something ready to sign. He at least should have taken a non-committal position on the bill until had the chance to see what the public reaction would be. I suspect that Reince Priebus gave Trump some bad advice.


You think it was on accident?

I don't know. The answer to that probably depends upon whether you subscribe to the theory that Ryan and the House GOP purposefully drafted Obamacare Lite to be a poison pill.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
March 14 2017 03:06 GMT
#142267
On March 14 2017 12:02 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2017 11:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 14 2017 11:57 xDaunt wrote:
Strenuously backing Obamacare Lite is the first big strategic error that Trump has made. That plan is a turd. He would have been much better off sitting back and waiting for Congress to give him something ready to sign. He at least should have taken a non-committal position on the bill until had the chance to see what the public reaction would be. I suspect that Reince Priebus gave Trump some bad advice.


You think it was on accident?

I don't know. The answer to that probably depends upon whether you subscribe to the theory that Ryan and the House GOP purposefully drafted Obamacare Lite to be a poison pill.


I mean I'd have a hard time thinking of a better way to kill all of the momentum for repealing Obamacare than the strategy they are currently implementing (or the series of mistakes they are making).

I know Trump doesn't get how all this stuff works, but no way Ryan and Preibus didn't know this bill would get ripped apart and that not even Trump could save it.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-14 03:10:57
March 14 2017 03:10 GMT
#142268
On March 14 2017 12:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2017 12:02 xDaunt wrote:
On March 14 2017 11:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 14 2017 11:57 xDaunt wrote:
Strenuously backing Obamacare Lite is the first big strategic error that Trump has made. That plan is a turd. He would have been much better off sitting back and waiting for Congress to give him something ready to sign. He at least should have taken a non-committal position on the bill until had the chance to see what the public reaction would be. I suspect that Reince Priebus gave Trump some bad advice.


You think it was on accident?

I don't know. The answer to that probably depends upon whether you subscribe to the theory that Ryan and the House GOP purposefully drafted Obamacare Lite to be a poison pill.


I mean I'd have a hard time thinking of a better way to kill all of the momentum for repealing Obamacare than the strategy they are currently implementing (or the series of mistakes they are making).

I know Trump doesn't get how all this stuff works, but no way Ryan and Preibus didn't know this bill would get ripped apart and that not even Trump could save it.

I'm inclined to think that Ryan is this stupid. When it's all said and done, I think that he and the Congressional GOP are going to bear the brunt of the backlash -- particularly from elements on the Right. If Ryan and Priebus really wanted to hurt Trump, there are far more targeted ways that they could do it. You also have to remember that this is the same party that has repeatedly tried to ram amnesty down its supporters' throats.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
March 14 2017 03:13 GMT
#142269
On March 14 2017 11:57 xDaunt wrote:
Strenuously backing Obamacare Lite is the first big strategic error that Trump has made. That plan is a turd. He would have been much better off sitting back and waiting for Congress to give him something ready to sign. He at least should have taken a non-committal position on the bill until had the chance to see what the public reaction would be. I suspect that Reince Priebus gave Trump some bad advice.

My gut tells me they would be better off defunding the whole damn thing with budget reconciliation rather than this boondoggle. It's my understanding the Senate would Byrd-rule away any useful regulation changes to what's driving up premiums. You have any other pie-in-the-sky ideas for what they could've used the filibuster-proof method instead of this?
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
March 14 2017 03:18 GMT
#142270
On March 14 2017 12:10 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2017 12:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 14 2017 12:02 xDaunt wrote:
On March 14 2017 11:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 14 2017 11:57 xDaunt wrote:
Strenuously backing Obamacare Lite is the first big strategic error that Trump has made. That plan is a turd. He would have been much better off sitting back and waiting for Congress to give him something ready to sign. He at least should have taken a non-committal position on the bill until had the chance to see what the public reaction would be. I suspect that Reince Priebus gave Trump some bad advice.


You think it was on accident?

I don't know. The answer to that probably depends upon whether you subscribe to the theory that Ryan and the House GOP purposefully drafted Obamacare Lite to be a poison pill.


I mean I'd have a hard time thinking of a better way to kill all of the momentum for repealing Obamacare than the strategy they are currently implementing (or the series of mistakes they are making).

I know Trump doesn't get how all this stuff works, but no way Ryan and Preibus didn't know this bill would get ripped apart and that not even Trump could save it.

I'm inclined to think that Ryan is this stupid. When it's all said and done, I think that he and the Congressional GOP are going to bear the brunt of the backlash -- particularly from elements on the Right. If Ryan and Priebus really wanted to hurt Trump, there are far more targeted ways that they could do it. You also have to remember that this is the same party that has repeatedly tried to ram amnesty down its supporters' throats.


Ryan strikes me as a triangulator. This was the first in what I suspect will be an ongoing series of trying to create rifts between Trump and his supporters. The house has a straight repeal bill many of them have already voted for, it will matter how Ryan lets that play out.

Ryan may be able to convince enough members that voting against a repeal is also a win and get Trump behind it since it would be him, not congress, that got blamed for the fallout of a repeal bill without immediate replacements for those that would lose coverage.

Perhaps it's not Ryan masterminding this thing though, could be Preibus. He's the most likely candidate for RNC king maker in the future.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-14 03:21:19
March 14 2017 03:19 GMT
#142271
On March 14 2017 12:13 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2017 11:57 xDaunt wrote:
Strenuously backing Obamacare Lite is the first big strategic error that Trump has made. That plan is a turd. He would have been much better off sitting back and waiting for Congress to give him something ready to sign. He at least should have taken a non-committal position on the bill until had the chance to see what the public reaction would be. I suspect that Reince Priebus gave Trump some bad advice.

My gut tells me they would be better off defunding the whole damn thing with budget reconciliation rather than this boondoggle. It's my understanding the Senate would Byrd-rule away any useful regulation changes to what's driving up premiums. You have any other pie-in-the-sky ideas for what they could've used the filibuster-proof method instead of this?

They should have tried to work with Democrats to create something better rather than trying to ram something through with a simple majority. And, above all, they should have done anything other than try to ram through a plan that is so vehemently despised by the conservative base.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
March 14 2017 03:26 GMT
#142272
On March 14 2017 12:19 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2017 12:13 Danglars wrote:
On March 14 2017 11:57 xDaunt wrote:
Strenuously backing Obamacare Lite is the first big strategic error that Trump has made. That plan is a turd. He would have been much better off sitting back and waiting for Congress to give him something ready to sign. He at least should have taken a non-committal position on the bill until had the chance to see what the public reaction would be. I suspect that Reince Priebus gave Trump some bad advice.

My gut tells me they would be better off defunding the whole damn thing with budget reconciliation rather than this boondoggle. It's my understanding the Senate would Byrd-rule away any useful regulation changes to what's driving up premiums. You have any other pie-in-the-sky ideas for what they could've used the filibuster-proof method instead of this?

They should have tried to work with Democrats to create something better rather than trying to ram something through with a simple majority. And, above all, they should have done anything other than try to ram through a plan that is so vehemently despised by the conservative base.


I feel that the congressional GOP members are doing their best to turn off people to conservatism (especially the younger generation). A lot of people in there who are terrible faces for GOP and we see them often.
Never Knows Best.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 14 2017 04:32 GMT
#142273
It hasn't even been six months and it seems every member of the Administration has been caught in corrupt acts.

U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, the former chairman and chief executive of Exxon Mobil Corp (XOM.N), used an alias email address while at the oil company to send and receive information related to climate change and other matters, according to New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman.

The attorney general's office said in a letter on Monday that it found Tillerson had used an alias email address under the pseudonym "Wayne Tracker" from at least 2008 through 2015.

Wayne is Tillerson's middle name.

The letter was sent to a New York state judge overseeing Schneiderman's investigation into whether Exxon misled shareholders and the public about climate change.

In a statement on Monday, Exxon spokesman Alan Jeffers said, "The email address, Wayne.Tracker@exxonmobil.com, is part of the company’s email system and was put in place for secure and expedited communications between select senior company officials and the former chairman for a broad range of business-related topics."

Jeffers said the company had provided 2.5 million pages of documents in response to a subpoena from Schneiderman's office and would respond to the claims in the letter in court filings.

A State Department spokeswoman declined to comment on the matter.

The letter, seen by Reuters, said Exxon had not previously disclosed the alias account. It asked the judge to order Exxon to explain whether documents from the "Wayne Tracker" email and 34 additional accounts assigned to other Exxon executives and board members had been preserved.

The letter said that Exxon had produced some 60 documents bearing the "Wayne Tracker" email but never said it was used by Tillerson for relevant communications at Exxon.

It asked the court to order Exxon to identify whether any other email accounts were used by Tillerson.

"Exxon's top executives, and in particular, Mr. Tillerson, have made multiple representations that are at the center of OAG's (attorney general's office) investigation of potentially false or misleading statements to investors and the public," the letter said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8224 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-14 07:20:05
March 14 2017 07:18 GMT
#142274
On March 14 2017 12:02 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2017 11:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 14 2017 11:57 xDaunt wrote:
Strenuously backing Obamacare Lite is the first big strategic error that Trump has made. That plan is a turd. He would have been much better off sitting back and waiting for Congress to give him something ready to sign. He at least should have taken a non-committal position on the bill until had the chance to see what the public reaction would be. I suspect that Reince Priebus gave Trump some bad advice.


You think it was on accident?

I don't know. The answer to that probably depends upon whether you subscribe to the theory that Ryan and the House GOP purposefully drafted Obamacare Lite to be a poison pill.

Or the GOP has never had any idea how to replace Obamacare, opposed it for partisan reasons, and came out with a train wreck of a bill that makes absolutely 0 sense and will be detrimental to everyone.

Ryan and his goons have promised unicorns for 8 years. They never had a plan and their claim that therw were "free market" alternative that wouldn't make dozens millions people lose tgeir coverage was a fat lie, as anyone who paid attention knew already.

Over 20 million people are probably gonna lose coverage. It's a tragedy. And for what?
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
2024 Posts
March 14 2017 10:23 GMT
#142275
On March 14 2017 16:18 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2017 12:02 xDaunt wrote:
On March 14 2017 11:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 14 2017 11:57 xDaunt wrote:
Strenuously backing Obamacare Lite is the first big strategic error that Trump has made. That plan is a turd. He would have been much better off sitting back and waiting for Congress to give him something ready to sign. He at least should have taken a non-committal position on the bill until had the chance to see what the public reaction would be. I suspect that Reince Priebus gave Trump some bad advice.


You think it was on accident?

I don't know. The answer to that probably depends upon whether you subscribe to the theory that Ryan and the House GOP purposefully drafted Obamacare Lite to be a poison pill.

Or the GOP has never had any idea how to replace Obamacare, opposed it for partisan reasons, and came out with a train wreck of a bill that makes absolutely 0 sense and will be detrimental to everyone.

Ryan and his goons have promised unicorns for 8 years. They never had a plan and their claim that therw were "free market" alternative that wouldn't make dozens millions people lose tgeir coverage was a fat lie, as anyone who paid attention knew already.

Over 20 million people are probably gonna lose coverage. It's a tragedy. And for what?


I never had health insurance, and never missed it. All you need is good, free public healthcare. But oh, this thrrad is about America, most of you guys don't even know it is a option...
Buff the siegetank
dankobanana
Profile Joined February 2016
Croatia244 Posts
March 14 2017 11:28 GMT
#142276
I think Donald's main problem is that he really believes what he reads/watches. And he only reads/watches Breitbart/Fox and therefore has a skewed view on reality. I really think he did believe ACA was a disaster and it was an easy fix. Its just now that he is seeing the truth. I think he really thought he could easily make it cheaper and give more coverage. The "good" media told him that. The same goes with the wire tapping, crowd size etc...
Battle is waged in the name of the many. The brave, who generation after generation choose the mantle of - Dark Templar!
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 14 2017 11:29 GMT
#142277
Remember where you are today TL, a Republican White House is using it's media arm to put blame on the Republican House speaker to shift blame for it's own Healthcare bill:

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
dankobanana
Profile Joined February 2016
Croatia244 Posts
March 14 2017 11:29 GMT
#142278
On March 14 2017 19:23 Slydie wrote:

I never had health insurance, and never missed it. All you need is good, free public healthcare. But oh, this thrrad is about America, most of you guys don't even know it is a option...


public healthcare is mandated health insurance and its not free. but yeah.
Battle is waged in the name of the many. The brave, who generation after generation choose the mantle of - Dark Templar!
dankobanana
Profile Joined February 2016
Croatia244 Posts
March 14 2017 11:31 GMT
#142279
On March 14 2017 20:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Remember where you are today TL, a Republican White House is using it's media arm to put blame on the Republican House speaker to shift blame for it's own Healthcare bill:


well thats because Donald is not (and has never been) a Republican. They tolerate him and use him as a tool
Battle is waged in the name of the many. The brave, who generation after generation choose the mantle of - Dark Templar!
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
March 14 2017 11:35 GMT
#142280
On March 14 2017 20:31 dankobanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2017 20:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Remember where you are today TL, a Republican White House is using it's media arm to put blame on the Republican House speaker to shift blame for it's own Healthcare bill:


well thats because Donald is not (and has never been) a Republican. They tolerate him and use him as a tool

Considering how hard the GOP tried to stop Trump, and how loyal his followers are to him and not to the GOP (who in their eyes are a part of the problem) I wonder who is using who.

If I had to name someone who was using everyone else it would probably be + Show Spoiler +
Bannon
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
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