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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On March 08 2017 21:49 Velr wrote: https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1275 Can this guy get any more pathetic? How insecure do you have to be to give your stuff names like this? This is what popped into my head. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On March 08 2017 13:40 Slaughter wrote: Yea but in the court of public opinion wouldn't any failure in Healthcare be at the feet of republicans? They have had so much time and all they do is shit out some crappy ass plan and refuse to just fix the problems of the ACA. If the ACA implodes the Dems can just say "they just let it fail without trying to fix or replace it with anything and they had congress + presidency, what is up with that?" The ball is very much in the republican court right now and any major failure in healthcare can be easily laid at their feet, even if its the ACA that goes belly up. not necessarily; the public tends to be pretty bad at attributing blame. the republicans might be able to spin failures as not their fault since they didn't provide a replacement. it'll still hurt some, but may well hurt less than the alternatives. the bigger question is whether the republicans can convince their base of such a thing, rather than losing their seats in primaries because they didn't do a repeal. it's hard to predict how people will think. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 08 2017 23:20 LightSpectra wrote: You say I'm hysterical but you haven't identified how. What part of my post was irrational? Dude you didn't even respond to me. I used Mohdoo's point as an illustration, your response was -forget all that he's totally justified-. Pardon me, but we have enough people here that spout their lines in response to other lines, and the more you want to slap around social Darwinism and ignorance like wet fish, the more you confirm you never want to understand the contrary ideas because the conclusion has already been reached. I've posted my critiques of prior system before--particularly when Obamacare was being ... errr 'debated,' if that's what you call passing it before figuring out what's in it (Pelosi) ... and I'd only do it again if the vibe was an atmosphere of competing ideas and plans. Not how totally justified everyone is that Republicans are ignorant Darwinists. Sometimes you just let the thread roll on to the next topic. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On March 08 2017 23:24 Plansix wrote: My wife has a long term condition, but treatable that causes her chronic pain. However, without health insurance there is no way we could afford to treat it, even being firmly in the middle class. If the ACA was completely repealed, she might not be able to get health insurance outside of our state. We already have to fight tooth and nail with our current provider. I really don’t feel like I should have to beg health care providers to cover my wife because she happened to lose the long term condition lottery. So I find the claims that liberals are being hysterical pretty off the mark. If not insulting. If someone wants to remove peoples protections and benefits, don’t expect them to be polite in their response. Or that their responses will not be emotional. seeking a clarification: this is one of those preexisting condition cases, correct? it existed before you had insurance? | ||
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LightSpectra
United States2520 Posts
On March 08 2017 23:52 Danglars wrote: Dude you didn't even respond to me. I used Mohdoo's point as an illustration, your response was -forget all that he's totally justified-. Pardon me, but we have enough people here that spout their lines in response to other lines, and the more you want to slap around social Darwinism and ignorance like wet fish, the more you confirm you never want to understand the contrary ideas because the conclusion has already been reached. I've posted my critiques of prior system before--particularly when Obamacare was being ... errr 'debated,' if that's what you call passing it before figuring out what's in it (Pelosi) ... and I'd only do it again if the vibe was an atmosphere of competing ideas and plans. Not how totally justified everyone is that Republicans are ignorant Darwinists. Sometimes you just let the thread roll on to the next topic. There really have been no contrary ideas. In 2008-2012 when I (briefly) watched FOX or read Townhall and National Review, there were never any factual arguments for why ACA wasn't a step in the right direction, or that universal healthcare was something undesirable. Most of the conservative criticism didn't focus on costs and efficiency and the best way to get people insurance, but rather abstract arguments like "we're giving government too much control over our lives" and "socialized medicine can't really work, socialism always fails" and "there's no reason for unemployed people to try to get jobs if they're already getting so many entitlements". Then there was a lot of absolute bullshit about death panels. If you know of any conservatives knowledgeable about economics that have a genuine and practical plan to get people health insurance without expanding Medicaid/care or establishing a NHS, please let Paul Ryan know so he can stop pretending that TINA to cutting coverage to save America. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8072 Posts
On March 08 2017 23:52 Danglars wrote: Dude you didn't even respond to me. I used Mohdoo's point as an illustration, your response was -forget all that he's totally justified-. Pardon me, but we have enough people here that spout their lines in response to other lines, and the more you want to slap around social Darwinism and ignorance like wet fish, the more you confirm you never want to understand the contrary ideas because the conclusion has already been reached. I've posted my critiques of prior system before--particularly when Obamacare was being ... errr 'debated,' if that's what you call passing it before figuring out what's in it (Pelosi) ... and I'd only do it again if the vibe was an atmosphere of competing ideas and plans. Not how totally justified everyone is that Republicans are ignorant Darwinists. Sometimes you just let the thread roll on to the next topic. Are you for or against Universal Healthcare? | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
On March 08 2017 22:30 LightSpectra wrote: That's because 50,000 people each year *actually are* dying to treatable medical ailments that they can't get because they don't have and can't afford health insurance. If this were the 1860s and universal health care had never been tried, all of this debate over how to get everybody insurance would be sensible. Except this is 2017, this is an easily solved problem, it's been solved for half a century or more in Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand. Those countries have universal healthcare AND they spend less per capita AND the quality of their healthcare is better on average than those on Medicare/Medicaid. The only reason to not go for that solution is either complete ignorance about the current state of the world, or Social Darwininism (i.e. actually wanting those 50k people each year to die because they deserve it for being poor), or because those politicians are getting ridiculously wealthy off of the profits from those private insurance companies. For all three of those reasons, the politicians that actively impede problem-solving deserve all of the spit and vinegar they get over killing grandma and the homeless. I agree 100%, but not about the reasons to change the current system. 1: Most Americans think that health insurance is necessary, and this is very hard to change. It would take years of great, free healthcare to convince them it is not. Even then, many would still buy it for the unnecessary checks and services they can offer, which are normally not included in public healthcare plans. 2: Private healthcare is a huge industry with a lot of people employed, and they do treat a lot of patients. Changing a juggernaut like that is close to impossible, you can't just import say... the Scandinavian system and expect it to work. 3: Even employment contracts are built around having a health insurance built in. This was how the mess started, it was actually a left-wing policy putting a roof on salaries, so companies started to add health insurances instead to get the best workers. Sorry US, you are in too deep. Your best bet is to move north or to Europe. We have some great stuff over here! | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 08 2017 23:56 zlefin wrote: seeking a clarification: this is one of those preexisting condition cases, correct? it existed before you had insurance? No it did not. The condition was discovered about four years ago, but she likely suffered from it her entire life on different levels. It is manageable, but needs to be managed by her and her doctor. It is "preexisting" now, I guess. I am not at all confident we could obtain insurance outside of MA without the ACA in place. To due life being life, she has switch employers a couple of times since we have been together. The quality of insurance and how willing they are to accept this condition as real varies. There were a couple times I considered getting at attorney to stop them from constantly demanding proof the condition exists. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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dankobanana
Croatia244 Posts
On March 09 2017 00:15 Plansix wrote: No it did not. The condition was discovered about four years ago, but she likely suffered from it her entire life on different levels. It is manageable, but needs to be managed by her and her doctor. It is "preexisting" now, I guess. I am not at all confident we could obtain insurance outside of MA without the ACA in place. To due life being life, she has switch employers a couple of times since we have been together. The quality of insurance and how willing they are to accept this condition as real varies. There were a couple times I considered getting at attorney to stop them from constantly demanding proof the condition exists. why not just move to Canada or EU and live a better life? its what I dont get about Americans. The rest of the world exists and you can get a better and/or cheaper healthcare (or education) by just moving | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 09 2017 00:16 Doodsmack wrote: You might think Congressional Republicans would be at a greater level of agreement on this than they currently are, after 60+ repeal bills. It is way easier to be a heckler than a performer. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8072 Posts
On March 09 2017 00:17 dankobanana wrote: why not just move to Canada or EU and live a better life? I recommend Norway. The social security literally chase you down until you take the money they owe you :D | ||
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dankobanana
Croatia244 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 09 2017 00:17 dankobanana wrote: why not just move to Canada or EU and live a better life? its what I dont get about Americans. The rest of the world exists and you can get a better and/or cheaper healthcare (or education) by just moving We would if it wasn’t for my wife’s band and my family. But we talk about it a lot, since this country is sort of garbage and not improving. On March 09 2017 00:22 dankobanana wrote: I have Chrons disease and ever since I was diagnosed I've been a part of online communities of people who share my illness for information and help. I have to say I've always felt great pitty for Americans who had to think about money that much while having a chronic disease. I would have never been able to be a productive part of society if we didnt have universal health care. This is the other aspect of health care. If it is covered, you can be productive. If not, then you can’t get treatment and you seek alternative means for supporting yourself. That includes disability and section 8. | ||
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dankobanana
Croatia244 Posts
On March 09 2017 00:24 Plansix wrote: why not just move to Canada or EU and live a better life? its what I dont get about Americans. The rest of the world exists and you can get a better and/or cheaper healthcare (or education) by just moving We would if it wasn’t for my wife’s band and my family. But we talk about it a lot, since this country is sort of garbage and not improving. [/QUOTE] its important to live somewhere where you are treated like a human | ||
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LightSpectra
United States2520 Posts
On March 09 2017 00:17 dankobanana wrote: why not just move to Canada or EU and live a better life? its what I dont get about Americans. The rest of the world exists and you can get a better and/or cheaper healthcare (or education) by just moving I've thought about it. But all of my friends and family that I rely upon heavily are in the USA. Plus my career is in an extremely specialized field, I'd probably end up a janitor or mailman if I moved to Europe. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On March 09 2017 00:05 LightSpectra wrote: There really have been no contrary ideas. In 2008-2012 when I (briefly) watched FOX or read Townhall and National Review, there were never any factual arguments for why ACA wasn't a step in the right direction, or that universal healthcare was something undesirable. Most of the conservative criticism didn't focus on costs and efficiency and the best way to get people insurance, but rather abstract arguments like "we're giving government too much control over our lives" and "socialized medicine can't really work, socialism always fails" and "there's no reason for unemployed people to try to get jobs if they're already getting so many entitlements". Then there was a lot of absolute bullshit about death panels. If you know of any conservatives knowledgeable about economics that have a genuine and practical plan to get people health insurance without expanding Medicaid/care or establishing a NHS, please let Paul Ryan know so he can stop pretending that TINA to cutting coverage to save America. Do you know what Ryan has been proposing? I haven't looked closely. I'm surprised there isn't more conservative proposals; it seems like it should be possible to make some that are consistent with the ideology. I've made the basic outlines for such before, so I'm sure someone more knowledge would've made some. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 09 2017 00:25 dankobanana wrote: its important to live somewhere where you are treated like a human True, but its also important to be near support networks of people and family. Me leaving dumps the burden of caring for my parents in their older age on my siblings. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States2520 Posts
On March 09 2017 00:27 zlefin wrote: Do you know what Ryan has been proposing? I haven't looked closely. I'm surprised there isn't more conservative proposals; it seems like it should be possible to make some that are consistent with the ideology. I've made the basic outlines for such before, so I'm sure someone more knowledge would've made some. Ryan's plan is to essentially keep all of the popular parts of ACA (like coverage for preexisting conditions) while cutting funding for millions of people. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/06/upshot/gop-health-bill-would-cut-funding-for-poor-and-taxes-on-rich.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/how-aca-replacement-compares/?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_graphic-repealplan-0607pm:homepage/story | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
On March 09 2017 00:19 Biff The Understudy wrote: I recommend Norway. The social security literally chase you down until you take the money they owe you :D Yes, but right now, I think there are better places. Fracking has damaged the all important oil-industry, so the unemployment rate is rising. The housing market is also terribly inflated, even in smaller cities. Don't come without having a very nice job as engineer, doctor or the like. Great place to study, though. Norwegians love Americans, and speak English very well. Norwegian is not too hard to learn either, easier than German and French imo. | ||
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