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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-07 06:47:27
January 07 2013 06:42 GMT
#1381
On January 07 2013 15:19 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2013 15:00 oneofthem wrote:
On January 07 2013 14:31 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
On January 07 2013 14:27 sam!zdat wrote:
I think he knows plenty of big words

edit: to your above point, yes, our government is not run very well. Mass Media Democracy is a terrible political system.


Perhaps he does, I just really don't like having assumptions being made about me.

the assumption was made about your post, which implied that a contemporary marxist would like to see orthodox communism (i.e. absolute worker ownership), rather than any number of intermediate or off the scale solutions.

one can make reasonable critiques of the current state of affairs from a marxist point of view, without advocating the exact same stuff marx did 150 years ago without the help of hindsight.


I implied no such thing. I was strictly addressing his desire for natural resources not to be privately owned. You keep making assumptions and making asses of us all. Your initial response to me was an unprovoked, passive aggressive, and thinly veiled ad hominem attack on both me, and an author you seem to want to keep people from reading by expressing how loony she is. I don't see why one can't make reasonable critiques of current affairs from a Randian point of view either, or countless other authors and thinkers. You're like a book burner, or have the same mentality of one.

i didn't even read your post, what makes you think i was talking to you lol.

edit: your concern about land development incentive is more appropriately addressed in a discussion about georgism. fyi your pragmatic attitude is the one i agree with the most in the past couple pages, i don't know why you would take so much offense.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
January 07 2013 06:50 GMT
#1382
On January 07 2013 15:41 Souma wrote:
I feel like BluePanther is misunderstanding sam quite a bit/just not reading his posts closely enough. It was an interesting discussion at first but now it's just going in circles.



He said:

my personal brand of Marxist ideology is somewhat tempered in the name of pragmatics


I told him Marxism was mistaken, he said I'm wrong. I'm curious as to what brand of Marxist ideology is worth considering, yet not getting anything.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-07 06:56:06
January 07 2013 06:52 GMT
#1383
On January 07 2013 15:38 BluePanther wrote:
Nor am I going to convince you that you are missing something unless I force you to critically examine your views. This is how society progresses... with discussion.


Yes, would you believe that a spend a lot of time reading long boring theoretical texts about precisely that thing? No need to lecture me on dialectics.

I just feel like we are going in circles and I don't know how to continue to make the same points in different ways.

You're right: I don't have the answer. I don't know what to do. I'm very distressed by this. There's no "Marxism thesis" so I can't explain what it is in a way that will satisfy your criteria. It's a way of thinking about things, and I have found it very productive for understanding things about the world that have bothered me my entire life. But "Marxism" is way too huge a thing for me to "prove that it's not obsolete" in this context to an interlocutor who already thinks he knows everything there is to know about it, when he clearly doesn't because he hasn't even read a single text in the tradition I am talking about when I talk about "Marxism." (I don't work primarily on Marx himself, just the tradition inspired by him - I'm a cultural critic not a political economist, although you have to think about political economy to think about the culture that's built on top of that economy.) I'm frustrated by your obstinacy and I can't possibly defend myself if your demand is "Solve the World!" because that's precisely what I can't do, and that's why I spend all this time reading trying to figure it out. I'm trying! If only I could read thousands and thousands and thousands more books, maybe I would know. But I'm just one fucking person. I don't know! But I know there's a problem, and I know that Marxism has helped me understand that problem, and I know that Marxism, in its own partial way, sees things that the mainstream of our society refuses to acknowledge. More than that, I don't know man, I wish I did. I really fucking wish I did.

edit; your quote above is farvacola, not me.

edit: My point is there's no one thing "Marxism" that can be mistaken. It's a big jumble of stuff! It's like saying "Liberalism is mistaken!" What a dumb way to think.
shikata ga nai
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-07 06:59:15
January 07 2013 06:54 GMT
#1384
Fair enough. I just think harshly criticizing the currently best functioning model as a whole is a little harsh if you don't have an alternative.

And you're right, it was farvacola. I guess you took up his defense so I associated the comment with you. In the end, if you're going to defend his comment, I presume you agree with it.

Marxism isn't a big jumble of stuff. His works dealt primarily with added value and labor thoery. He thought the problem/flaw with capitalism was the class divide it produced due to private property of the means of production.
smokeyhoodoo
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1021 Posts
January 07 2013 06:57 GMT
#1385
On January 07 2013 15:42 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2013 15:19 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
On January 07 2013 15:00 oneofthem wrote:
On January 07 2013 14:31 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
On January 07 2013 14:27 sam!zdat wrote:
I think he knows plenty of big words

edit: to your above point, yes, our government is not run very well. Mass Media Democracy is a terrible political system.


Perhaps he does, I just really don't like having assumptions being made about me.

the assumption was made about your post, which implied that a contemporary marxist would like to see orthodox communism (i.e. absolute worker ownership), rather than any number of intermediate or off the scale solutions.

one can make reasonable critiques of the current state of affairs from a marxist point of view, without advocating the exact same stuff marx did 150 years ago without the help of hindsight.


I implied no such thing. I was strictly addressing his desire for natural resources not to be privately owned. You keep making assumptions and making asses of us all. Your initial response to me was an unprovoked, passive aggressive, and thinly veiled ad hominem attack on both me, and an author you seem to want to keep people from reading by expressing how loony she is. I don't see why one can't make reasonable critiques of current affairs from a Randian point of view either, or countless other authors and thinkers. You're like a book burner, or have the same mentality of one.

i didn't even read your post, what makes you think i was talking to you lol.

edit: your concern about land development incentive is more appropriately addressed in a discussion about georgism. fyi your pragmatic attitude is the one i agree with the most in the past couple pages, i don't know why you would take so much offense.


"Randian paradise" is why I took offense. I apologize for thinking it was directed towards me, I still don't like your attack on Ayn Rand though.
There is no cow level
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-07 07:02:18
January 07 2013 06:59 GMT
#1386
I want to criticize it harshly so that other people will start to think about alternatives! I need some help here!

It's true that sometimes I let my personal frustration show through in ways that are counterproductive to my aims. I'm human, and it's true that I'm very angry at my society, because there's so much that's so great about the United States and I feel like we're totally fucking it up.

edit: it's probably safe to assume that farvacola and I agree about most things.

edit:

On January 07 2013 15:54 BluePanther wrote:
Marxism isn't a big jumble of stuff. His works dealt primarily with added value and labor thoery. He thought the problem/flaw with capitalism was the class divide it produced due to private property of the means of production.


See! Just no. Critique of ideology, theory of crisis formation (not at all what you suggest here), philosophy of history, concept of species-being, the commodity fetish... we could go on.

And Marx is just a tiny piece of Marxism. I don't even primarily work on Marx.
shikata ga nai
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
January 07 2013 07:04 GMT
#1387
On January 07 2013 15:57 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2013 15:42 oneofthem wrote:
On January 07 2013 15:19 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
On January 07 2013 15:00 oneofthem wrote:
On January 07 2013 14:31 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
On January 07 2013 14:27 sam!zdat wrote:
I think he knows plenty of big words

edit: to your above point, yes, our government is not run very well. Mass Media Democracy is a terrible political system.


Perhaps he does, I just really don't like having assumptions being made about me.

the assumption was made about your post, which implied that a contemporary marxist would like to see orthodox communism (i.e. absolute worker ownership), rather than any number of intermediate or off the scale solutions.

one can make reasonable critiques of the current state of affairs from a marxist point of view, without advocating the exact same stuff marx did 150 years ago without the help of hindsight.


I implied no such thing. I was strictly addressing his desire for natural resources not to be privately owned. You keep making assumptions and making asses of us all. Your initial response to me was an unprovoked, passive aggressive, and thinly veiled ad hominem attack on both me, and an author you seem to want to keep people from reading by expressing how loony she is. I don't see why one can't make reasonable critiques of current affairs from a Randian point of view either, or countless other authors and thinkers. You're like a book burner, or have the same mentality of one.

i didn't even read your post, what makes you think i was talking to you lol.

edit: your concern about land development incentive is more appropriately addressed in a discussion about georgism. fyi your pragmatic attitude is the one i agree with the most in the past couple pages, i don't know why you would take so much offense.


"Randian paradise" is why I took offense. I apologize for thinking it was directed towards me, I still don't like your attack on Ayn Rand though.


Randian theory fails because it fails to consider the good of the commons. It sounds great, but has practical limitations, such as cartels, etc. It also violates most common liberal understandings of human dignity with regards to groups such as those with mental disorders. It asks the have-nots to defend a political and legal system that justifies the haves having and the have-nots not having. That's impractical, and I don't think many people want to live in such a system even if they DO believe in the idea of "to each according to their production".
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
January 07 2013 07:07 GMT
#1388
On January 07 2013 15:59 sam!zdat wrote:
I want to criticize it harshly so that other people will start to think about alternatives! I need some help here!

It's true that sometimes I let my personal frustration show through in ways that are counterproductive to my aims. I'm human, and it's true that I'm very angry at my society, because there's so much that's so great about the United States and I feel like we're totally fucking it up.

edit: it's probably safe to assume that farvacola and I agree about most things.

edit:

Show nested quote +
On January 07 2013 15:54 BluePanther wrote:
Marxism isn't a big jumble of stuff. His works dealt primarily with added value and labor thoery. He thought the problem/flaw with capitalism was the class divide it produced due to private property of the means of production.


See! Just no. Critique of ideology, theory of crisis formation (not at all what you suggest here), philosophy of history, concept of species-being, the commodity fetish... we could go on.

And Marx is just a tiny piece of Marxism. I don't even primarily work on Marx.


Ok, I disagree that that's Marxism then. When I think of Marxism, I think of the work he produced. He is by far most known for his labor theories, which are by far his most relevant contributions to humanity. I think if you ascribe to other ideas then you're misappropriating the term "Marxist".
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-07 07:14:16
January 07 2013 07:10 GMT
#1389
What, you mean the other ideas that are in.... Marx's written work?

edit: you realize Marx's corpus is FUCKING MASSIVE, right?

edit: you need to go find whatever professor gave you the impression that he was teaching you all about Marx and ask for your money back, you got robbed. You seriously think what you are describing is, like, the primary content of Marx's work.

edit: is it the fault of Marxists if people who are not Marxists don't understand what's actually in Marx? Just because they're not well-known all of a sudden Marxists are not allowed to use those ideas? We have to be only the kind of Marxists that other people expect to be Marxists?
shikata ga nai
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
January 07 2013 07:17 GMT
#1390
On January 07 2013 16:10 sam!zdat wrote:
What, you mean the other ideas that are in.... Marx's written work?

edit: you realize Marx's corpus is FUCKING MASSIVE, right?

edit: you need to go find whatever professor gave you the impression that he was teaching you all about Marx and ask for your money back, you got robbed. You seriously think what you are describing is, like, the primary content of Marx's work.

edit: is it the fault of Marxists if people who are not Marxists don't understand what's actually in Marx? Just because they're not well-known all of a sudden Marxists are not allowed to use those ideas? We have to be only the kind of Marxists that other people expect to be Marxists?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism

tends to agree with me.

Marxism is based on a materialist understanding of societal development, taking at its starting point the necessary economic activities required by human society to provide for its material needs. The form of economic organization, or mode of production, is understood to be the basis from which the majority of other social phenomena — including social relations, political and legal systems, morality and ideology — arise (or at the least by which they are greatly influenced).


The foundations of these ideas were located in his labor theory where he pointed out the inherent unfairness associated with Capitalism.
smokeyhoodoo
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1021 Posts
January 07 2013 07:17 GMT
#1391
On January 07 2013 16:04 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2013 15:57 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
On January 07 2013 15:42 oneofthem wrote:
On January 07 2013 15:19 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
On January 07 2013 15:00 oneofthem wrote:
On January 07 2013 14:31 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
On January 07 2013 14:27 sam!zdat wrote:
I think he knows plenty of big words

edit: to your above point, yes, our government is not run very well. Mass Media Democracy is a terrible political system.


Perhaps he does, I just really don't like having assumptions being made about me.

the assumption was made about your post, which implied that a contemporary marxist would like to see orthodox communism (i.e. absolute worker ownership), rather than any number of intermediate or off the scale solutions.

one can make reasonable critiques of the current state of affairs from a marxist point of view, without advocating the exact same stuff marx did 150 years ago without the help of hindsight.


I implied no such thing. I was strictly addressing his desire for natural resources not to be privately owned. You keep making assumptions and making asses of us all. Your initial response to me was an unprovoked, passive aggressive, and thinly veiled ad hominem attack on both me, and an author you seem to want to keep people from reading by expressing how loony she is. I don't see why one can't make reasonable critiques of current affairs from a Randian point of view either, or countless other authors and thinkers. You're like a book burner, or have the same mentality of one.

i didn't even read your post, what makes you think i was talking to you lol.

edit: your concern about land development incentive is more appropriately addressed in a discussion about georgism. fyi your pragmatic attitude is the one i agree with the most in the past couple pages, i don't know why you would take so much offense.


"Randian paradise" is why I took offense. I apologize for thinking it was directed towards me, I still don't like your attack on Ayn Rand though.


Randian theory fails because it fails to consider the good of the commons. It sounds great, but has practical limitations, such as cartels, etc. It also violates most common liberal understandings of human dignity with regards to groups such as those with mental disorders. It asks the have-nots to defend a political and legal system that justifies the haves having and the have-nots not having. That's impractical, and I don't think many people want to live in such a system even if they DO believe in the idea of "to each according to their production".


None of that is either here nor there. Her idea's can stand for themselves, no need for an ad hominem attack. Saying something like "Randian paradise" or "Marxian paradise", influences others into biased thoughts and avoiding ideas so as to not appear crazy.
There is no cow level
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-07 07:23:41
January 07 2013 07:19 GMT
#1392
Did you just seriously cite me a wikipedia article? You must be running out of cliches to throw at me.

And that article doesn't even "tend to agree with you." Did you read it, or just write the link and assume it said what you already know?

edit: explain to me what the word "foundation" is. Do you understand what it means for some concept to be the "foundation" of a theory? how about "based on." Can you explain how you understand this phrase?

edit: while you're at it "starting point"

edit: I can't believe I believed you when you claimed to have read "most of his stuff."
shikata ga nai
harlock78
Profile Joined November 2011
United States94 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-07 07:31:41
January 07 2013 07:30 GMT
#1393
On January 07 2013 15:59 sam!zdat wrote:
I want to criticize it harshly so that other people will start to think about alternatives! I need some help here!


People think about alternatives all the time, just not in terms of a complete coherent system like they used to do in the times of Marx and Hegel.
And it's fine, one wouldn't want Dustin Bowder to change the whole balance in starcraft. Aside some delusional revolutionaries, we are happy with incremental changes and fixes according to the ideals one has for the game design.

Also it is good to remember that social and economical problems don't have a solution. All the -isms are just glasses to make sense of the world. Sometimes they are wrong and misleading, sometimes they are just incomplete, sometimes they color the world in a certain way (moral, values etc..). Marxist historiography is a very powerful and useful pair of glasses.

Internet forums are not to convince people, it's a waste of time. But for exchanging ideas and learn about stuff. Always hard to go against the usual catechism.
So please keep criticizing, it's enjoyable to read
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
January 07 2013 07:32 GMT
#1394
On January 07 2013 16:19 sam!zdat wrote:
Did you just seriously cite me a wikipedia article? You must be running out of cliches to throw at me.

And that article doesn't even "tend to agree with you." Did you read it, or just write the link and assume it said what you already know?

edit: explain to me what the word "foundation" is. Do you understand what it means for some concept to be the "foundation" of a theory?


Well, Wikipedia backs up my general understanding of his work and my understanding of what "Marxism" is based on. Maybe you know of some super secret club that defines it differently, I'm not sure, but general consensus (which is why I linked wikipedia) agrees with my understanding.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
January 07 2013 07:42 GMT
#1395
tell me what the words mean bluepanther
shikata ga nai
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-07 07:44:46
January 07 2013 07:44 GMT
#1396
On January 07 2013 16:30 harlock78 wrote:
Internet forums are not to convince people, it's a waste of time.


I actually don't have to convince HIM of anything. All I have to convince are the impressionable adolescents who came looking for starcraft and ended up lurking the politics thread that maybe they should check out Marx because he's a baller philosopher.

edit: and I feel like he's made himself look like an idiot and I need to calm the fuck down before I go to bed, so I think my work here is done.
shikata ga nai
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
January 07 2013 08:04 GMT
#1397
On January 07 2013 16:42 sam!zdat wrote:
tell me what the words mean bluepanther


I'm not going down that road. Waste of time. If you wanted to have a theory discussion, I'm for that. I'm not interested in a definitional debate.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 07 2013 08:49 GMT
#1398
Can I make a bargain with the demagogues that would hold up the top few percent of income holders for community censure? Give me your final number or numbers at how rich is too rich to be considered for tax cuts. I want to be that guy earning a dollar less. I'd like to be more successful than I am today, maybe even invest some time in another corporation with reasonable opportunity for advancement. But let me keep my own personal charity as my own choice (tax exempt or otherwise) and not one made by other more meritorious men. Maybe I can rig it to be in the top 11%, but not top 10%, and pay off enough people with political power to keep it that way in the news. I heard top 2% of income earners mentioned a lot in Obama's speeches, but those top 4% are still getting the shaft rather frequently, so I think I need some distance to be safe for the next Obama.

Forbes recently published a great analysis of the deal that kept [strike]tax cuts for the rich from the Bush Era[/strike] some nameless tax cuts and other stuff going for the less successful people in America. It is as far-reaching as it is exact
And taxes are still going up. Taxes on capital gains and dividends will increase to a maximum rate of 20 percent. (Under the Bush tax cuts, capital gains and dividends were taxed at 15 percent; after their expiration, capital gains were to be taxed at 20 percent, and dividends at ordinary income tax rates as high as 39.6 percent.) Increasing capital-gains taxes by 33% will dramatically increase the cost, and the risk, of investing in the private sector.

In addition, of course, the law increases tax rates on those making more than $400,000, and phases out important tax exemptions for those making more than $250,000.

+ Show Spoiler [full text] +
You would have to have been living under a rock for the past 48 hours—or nursing an epic hangover—to have not heard of the bipartisan fiscal-cliff compromise that passed Congress on New Year’s Day. The law is called the “American Taxpayer Relief Act.” It should have been called the “GOP Politician Relief Act,” though, since it passed Congress because Congressional Republicans were afraid of being blamed for a fiscal cliff-mandated tax hike on most Americans. Republicans are comforting themselves by claiming that, in the next round of fiscal negotiations, they will have more leverage. But the opposite is true: Republicans will have even less leverage in future deals, and government will grow even larger as a result.

The deal cleans up a number of Congressional accounting gimmicks…

First, let’s review the fiscal cliff deal. The good news is that the law gets rid of a number of short-term accounting gimmicks by making permanent fixes to a broad swath of the federal tax code. The law permanently enshrines the Bush tax cuts for individual income taxes—which were, once upon a time, the bane of progressives’ existence—for individuals making less than $400,000.

Similarly, the law makes other permanent changes to the tax code. The alternative minimum tax, or AMT, will finally be permanently indexed to inflation: the largest tax-based discrepancy between the Congressional Budget Office’s long-term budget projections based on current law, and its more realistic “alternative scenario” in which Congress continues prior fiscal policies such as short-term fixes to the AMT.

Making these rates permanent, after years of temporary gimmickry, means that individuals and small businesses can finally plan their affairs, knowing what their tax rates will be for the near- to medium-term. Policy certainty, all else being equal, is a good thing.

…at a tremendous fiscal cost…

But this end to Congressional accounting gimmicks on the tax side comes with a price tag. Enshrining the Bush tax rates for individuals making less than $400,000 a year will increase the deficit by $762 billion over the next ten years. The permanent AMT fix will cost $1.8 trillion over the same time period. Overall, the tax provisions of the American Taxpayer Relief Act will increase the deficit by $3.9 trillion over ten years, relative to what would have happened had we jumped over the fiscal cliff.

And taxes are still going up. Taxes on capital gains and dividends will increase to a maximum rate of 20 percent. (Under the Bush tax cuts, capital gains and dividends were taxed at 15 percent; after their expiration, capital gains were to be taxed at 20 percent, and dividends at ordinary income tax rates as high as 39.6 percent.) Increasing capital-gains taxes by 33% will dramatically increase the cost, and the risk, of investing in the private sector.

In addition, of course, the law increases tax rates on those making more than $400,000, and phases out important tax exemptions for those making more than $250,000.

…with zero spending reform


The key driver of our persistent deficits is federal health-care spending. The law makes no serious attempt to reform health spending; it continues the annual “doc fix” Medicare accounting gimmickry, and does nothing to rein in the overall growth of Medicare, Medicaid, and Obamacare.

Relative to current policy, the fiscal cliff deal increases taxes by $620 billion over the next ten years, and reduces spending by $15 billion. That’s a ratio of 41 dollars in tax increases for every dollar of spending cuts. Remember August 2011, when eight Republican presidential candidates swore that they would walk away from a deal that would raise taxes by ten cents for every dollar of spending cuts?

That math is ancient history. What Republicans just helped shepherd through Congress involves a ratio of tax increases to spending cuts that is 413 times less favorable than the deal that those eight candidates considered to be insufficiently conservative. And it makes a mockery of President Obama’s oft-repeated claim to desire an approach to deficit reduction that is “balanced” between tax increases and spending cuts.

The deal increases the progressivity of our tax code, by increasing the share of the federal tax burden that will be paid by higher earners. But the United States already has the most progressive tax code in the OECD. Making the tax code even more progressive means that the broad swath of American voters will continue to be insulated from the cost of higher government spending, reducing the political appeal of future spending cuts.

The debt ceiling does not provide Republicans with ‘leverage’

On the Sunday show circuit, GOP politicians like Sens. Bob Corker (Tenn.) and Lindsey Graham (S.C.) have been arguing that it’s okay for Republicans to capitulate on the fiscal cliff, because they’ll have “leverage” during the next set of fiscal negotiations, because the next round will involve raising the federal debt ceiling.

If Congress doesn’t raise the debt ceiling, the United States will be forced to default on some of its outstanding debt. Such an outcome would wreak havoc on financial markets, because U.S. treasury bonds play a critical, and very large, role in the global financial system. The stock market would crash. Interest rates on federal debt would skyrocket. The resultant economic chaos would make the fiscal cliff look like child’s play. And yet, we are to believe that a Republican party that was afraid of going over the fiscal cliff is totally fine with defaulting on the national debt?

The Republican calculation appears to be that President Obama will get equally blamed for a debt default. But this seems unlikely. After all, it’s Republicans, not Democrats, who are arguing that the debt limit gives them some sort of “leverage.” It would have been unfair to blame Republicans if we had gone over the fiscal cliff; after all, Democrats are the ones who have opposed the Bush tax cuts all along. But in the case of the debt ceiling, if Republicans think they will escape blame for a default, they are delusional.

Ezra Klein is one of the few people who has figured this out. “Republicans make a big show of being unreasonable,” he writes, “but they’re not nearly as crazy as the tea party would have you believe. In the end, they weren’t even willing to go over the fiscal cliff. The debt ceiling would do far more damage to the economy than the fiscal cliff, and Republicans would receive far more of the blame…No one thinks that the White House wants to breach the debt ceiling.”

In 1996, when President Clinton vetoed a set of fiscal reforms from the Newt Gingrich-led Republican Congress, the resultant government shutdown forced Republicans into a free-spending crouch for the remainder of their time in the majority. A debt default would be far more damaging to the economy than that government shutdown was, and would have more far-reaching political consequences.

They say that there’s no point in taking a hostage if you’re not willing to shoot the hostage. Hence, it is Republicans who will almost certainly capitulate in the 2013 debt-ceiling showdown. They’ll either do it to avoid default, or, even worse, they’ll do it after a default in which they are blamed for the turbulence that follows.

The GOP needs to reboot its fiscal strategy


For Republicans, the only way to avoid certain doom is to come up with an entirely new fiscal strategy. The latest word from House Speaker John Boehner’s office is encouraging in this regard. An aide to the Speaker told The Hill that Boehner will no longer negotiate with the President on fiscal deals. Instead, “he is recommitting himself and the House to what we’ve done, which is working through regular order and letting the House work its will.”

This is a good start. The best way for Republicans to show that they are governing responsibly is by passing legislation in the House of Representatives, which they control, that reforms entitlements and reduces spending. In 2011, Boehner articulated a useful principle for future deficit reduction: that he would vote to raise the debt ceiling by only as much as any accompanying legislation reduced the deficit over a ten-year period.

In 2013, Boehner can use this principle to pass legislation that raises the debt ceiling in exchange for pragmatic entitlement reform, such as raising the Medicare retirement age and applying the chained-CPI inflation index to Social Security benefits. Instead of negotiating with President Obama, however, Boehner and Sen. Mitch McConnell (Ky.) should negotiate with centrist Senate Democrats and Vice-President Joe Biden, who has shown an impressive ability to get things done.

Only then—when a debt-ceiling bill gets through Congress—will Republicans have leverage with President Obama. It’s inconceivable that Obama would veto a bill that would prevent the government from defaulting on its debt. So Republicans had better start schmoozing with centrist Senate Democrats. Without them, one way or another, it will again be Republicans who fold in the fiscal fights of 2013.

It's really illustrative of exploring how progressive we can go to milk revenue out of our progressive tax system. How heavy is too heavy for the weight of the people corporately sucking on the affluents' teat? It's clear that nobody in the fight has bled enough to talk about heavy entitlement reform (OMB: 62 cents out of every dollar the government spends is on entitlements) but that day is coming.

Now, I'm not coming in here to launch a new salvo in the American consumerism cultural debate, or anything short of it. I'm remarking on the perversity of encouraging our kids to succeed, to reach for the stars, and then impose a glass ceiling where the rest of your success increasingly isn't your own anymore. Where giving philanthropically frankly isn't all that laudable, only giving philanthropically through the agency of the government is.

The article touches also on how the recent ATRA will hurt investing in the private sector. It's already risky enough investing in startups or expansions without the government coming in and snapping up more and more of the potential gains in the venture. Most new businesses fail. The ones that succeed do so while employing more workers, increasing the number of jobs available in a tough marketplace.

Finally, Republicans are now looking back at what state they now sit in. I'm not even talking about whether they have fumbled or lost the debate on taxing the rich to pay for broad government services. This is about the position of having a very weak bargaining position on the debt ceiling (You can't force Obama to compromise or get the blame on a default, because he will get no blame. You can't pretend that you're willing for it to happen, when you already mostly capitulated on the far more ideological fight of tax cuts and spending at the last 11th hour meeting). Even beyond the tough fight to keep control of Congress in the face of strong Democratic opposition is the fight to present a reason to be voted for by their own party. I am increasingly dumbfounded to find an explanation that would convince me to vote again for the same Congressional representative I voted for last time. Can he show that he disagreed with the Speaker and party leadership in this last round but was overruled. Oh well, identity battle again and again with support waning each time.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-07 09:28:13
January 07 2013 09:26 GMT
#1399
They won't fix the "tax the rich" messing with business unless they change pass-through taxation and/or double taxation.
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
January 07 2013 10:12 GMT
#1400
On January 07 2013 17:49 Danglars wrote:
Can I make a bargain with the demagogues that would hold up the top few percent of income holders for community censure? Give me your final number or numbers at how rich is too rich to be considered for tax cuts. I want to be that guy earning a dollar less.


I won't give you a specific number, but I can assure you that a person who doesn't even know that tax brackets exist will never earn anything close to it.
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
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