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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
February 14 2017 18:44 GMT
#137401
On February 15 2017 03:32 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2017 03:31 a_flayer wrote:
On February 15 2017 02:47 oneofthem wrote:
unnamed sources as in veterans from our intelligence community. you are seriously equivocating random bloggers with 20 year NSA veterans ljl


So, are all the intelligence veterans I've seen talk on RT America correct in their assessments?

they are not active.

turncoats always exist, but you don't know that do you

RT also hugely embellish the credentials of their guests.


i did a very short internship type program in an agency related to the national security apparatus. on RT i would be "one of the youngest people ever to work for the CIA". or something.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 14 2017 18:57 GMT
#137402
Sean Spicer is being torn to shreds during this Press Briefing, and his answers just open up more holes in the defense.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 14 2017 19:01 GMT
#137403


"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
February 14 2017 19:24 GMT
#137404
On February 15 2017 03:42 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2017 02:45 cLutZ wrote:
On February 14 2017 23:30 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On February 14 2017 14:24 cLutZ wrote:
On February 14 2017 13:55 Plansix wrote:


Scott Detrow of NPR pointing out that the fake news defense has limits. Much like crying wolf.

He covers congress and is a good follow on twitter. Mostly news and talking to other reporters.

Yes, the limits are basically whether it actually is fake news (aka the Buzzfeed/Tapper report), unsourced "reports" that always seem to be 50/50 on whether its just musings of drunk ex-Clinton staffer, or actually veritably true.

Also I always love the armchair Logan Act attorneys that pop up from time to time. If that law was actually Constitutional you'd think someone would have gone down for it during the Cold War. From Ted Kennedy, to the 1984 Letter to Ortega, to Henry Kissinger, to John Kerry. But sure, this is gonna be the time!


You realize that the unsourced reports were what started this whole story, right? It's not like anyone went on record confirming the FBI had wiretaps demonstrating Flynn had lied to Pence about discussing sanctions. There's no way for us to verify these stories were true any more than there was a way for us to verify the dossier was an appendix to docs briefing Trump (shockingly, both turned out to be true because people don't fabricate sources when they work at real papers).

Also, clearly Trump picks the best people. I can't remember who it was in the thread that wanted a Flynn running mate at one point, but that would clearly have been a disaster judging by how he couldn't even last a month.


Actually that is kind of the point. The the "fake news" problem and the general deterioration of trust in legacy media overall. The Flynn reports were very similar in style to various other unsourced reports that had come out over the last few weeks:

The State Department "Resignation" Story
EPA "Gag Order" (see also "Trump took XXX off the official website" etc in the bucket of "standard operating procedure is an outrage)
MLK's Head removed from the oval office
whatever this is
Russian Sanctions Repealed?
Fake Invasion Threat of Mexico
Secret Service in Turmoil?
Australia's PM

Etc. The point is not that the unnamed sources were right on Flynn, its that they have been wrong so many times that no outside observer can know if a media report is correct, or as I said, just the drunk musings of a Democratic operative until its been confirmed by several independent sources. Frankly, Watergate, if it happened today, would not be a credible story because a cub reporter relying on a single unnamed source is as likely to be relaying propaganda as the truth.


The leaks about the phone conversations with the Mexican and Australian leaders are real because Trump himself complained about the leaks. But I think you are citing a small minority of news stories which is not sufficient to dismiss them all.


I think the difference in our evaluation is that I listed a subset of all the "News" that is sensational, not easily verifiable, etc. Look, the Times and Post are overwhelmingly accurate when they report on things that they have seen, on press briefing, releases, court decisions, etc (although thier science reporting seems populated with people who can't pass Physics 1). But, most places do that just fine, even something like the Washington Examiner or NY Post. What we relied on them is to filter these leaks fro ex-state department, ex-cia, and current government employees + the machinations of foreign affairs. Its in these areas where the public can't see the evidence, can't make sense of it, etc. This is why QC exists, and IMO they are significantly below the needed level of skepticism towards partisans and semi-partisans.

A good example I'd say was during the Hillary 9/11 collapse. Any sane reporter knows to doubt the first statement made by the campaign about what happened. First, it's a campaign, they lie. Second, it was a Clinton campaign that is known for these weird non-truths that get them in trouble long term for no rational reason. But sure, let's go with the "overheated" report and run it as fact until Fox points out it was 60 degrees.
Freeeeeeedom
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 14 2017 19:32 GMT
#137405
A trio of conservative House members said Tuesday that they were open to further congressional investigations into accusations that retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn, who resigned as national security adviser Monday night, had inappropriate contacts with Russia during the presidential transition.

The Republicans, speaking with reporters on Capitol Hill at their monthly "conversations with conservatives," said that the intelligence committees should first work with the intelligence community to get a better understanding of what communications did occur between Flynn and Russian officials, but that they supported a broader investigation if the intel communities found it warranted.

"I would support an investigation, if it's warranted based on information from the intelligence community, and the first step would be for the intelligence committees to have that understanding with the intelligence community," said Rep, Justin Amash (R-MI). "The rest of us in Congress wouldn't have immediate access to the same information. So really it's incumbent upon the intelligence community, and the intelligence committees to work together."

Their openness to probing Flynn's behavior went farther than other House GOP leaders -- including House Intelligence Committee Chair Devin Nunes (R-CA and House Oversight Committee Chair Jason Chaffetz (R-UT) -- who sounded ready to leave the matter alone now that Flynn has resigned.

At the briefing with conservatives, Rep. Scott Perry (R-PA) said he didn't want comment "without the facts" but acknowledged, "I don't know how you get the facts without doing some kind of investigation so let me say that."

"There needs to be a full accounting so we understand what happened," Perry said.

Another prominent House conservative, Rep. Raul Labrador (R-ID), said he agreed with Perry and Amash, adding, "I do think it's incumbent on the Intel Committees to determine what the facts are and to see if there has to be further investigation."

There have been similar calls on the Senate side from a handful of Republicans, including Sens. Roy Blunt (R-MO) and John McCain (R-AZ), who have said that there are questions they still want answered about Flynn's actions.

At his weekly press conference, Speaker Paul Ryan said that he didn't want to "prejudge any of the circumstances surrounding this until we have all of the information." Chaffetz told reporters that the "situation has taken care of itself." Nunes stopped short of calling for an Intel Committee investigation into President Trump's communications with Flynn about his contacts with Russia. He did, however, raise concerns about the leaks to the press about Flynn's activities.

Some senators on Tuesday said they were willing to default to the ongoing Senate intel committee inquiry into Russia's involvement in the 2016 presidential campaign, but others hinted that there might need to be a more public examination of the allegations against Flynn.

"I think most Americans have a right to know whether or not this was a General Flynn rogue maneuver, or was he basically speaking for somebody else in the White House?" Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-SC) said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
February 14 2017 20:01 GMT
#137406
The pneumonia issue was one of many examples of lying stupidly on the part of Hillary and her campaign. Eroded trust didn't come out of nowhere.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 14 2017 20:04 GMT
#137407
Leave it to LL to bring the discussion back to Clinton, his favorite topic.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-14 20:11:37
February 14 2017 20:09 GMT
#137408
On February 15 2017 04:24 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2017 03:42 Doodsmack wrote:
On February 15 2017 02:45 cLutZ wrote:
On February 14 2017 23:30 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On February 14 2017 14:24 cLutZ wrote:
On February 14 2017 13:55 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/scottdetrow/status/831357656661114881

Scott Detrow of NPR pointing out that the fake news defense has limits. Much like crying wolf.

He covers congress and is a good follow on twitter. Mostly news and talking to other reporters.

Yes, the limits are basically whether it actually is fake news (aka the Buzzfeed/Tapper report), unsourced "reports" that always seem to be 50/50 on whether its just musings of drunk ex-Clinton staffer, or actually veritably true.

Also I always love the armchair Logan Act attorneys that pop up from time to time. If that law was actually Constitutional you'd think someone would have gone down for it during the Cold War. From Ted Kennedy, to the 1984 Letter to Ortega, to Henry Kissinger, to John Kerry. But sure, this is gonna be the time!


You realize that the unsourced reports were what started this whole story, right? It's not like anyone went on record confirming the FBI had wiretaps demonstrating Flynn had lied to Pence about discussing sanctions. There's no way for us to verify these stories were true any more than there was a way for us to verify the dossier was an appendix to docs briefing Trump (shockingly, both turned out to be true because people don't fabricate sources when they work at real papers).

Also, clearly Trump picks the best people. I can't remember who it was in the thread that wanted a Flynn running mate at one point, but that would clearly have been a disaster judging by how he couldn't even last a month.


Actually that is kind of the point. The the "fake news" problem and the general deterioration of trust in legacy media overall. The Flynn reports were very similar in style to various other unsourced reports that had come out over the last few weeks:

The State Department "Resignation" Story
EPA "Gag Order" (see also "Trump took XXX off the official website" etc in the bucket of "standard operating procedure is an outrage)
MLK's Head removed from the oval office
whatever this is
Russian Sanctions Repealed?
Fake Invasion Threat of Mexico
Secret Service in Turmoil?
Australia's PM

Etc. The point is not that the unnamed sources were right on Flynn, its that they have been wrong so many times that no outside observer can know if a media report is correct, or as I said, just the drunk musings of a Democratic operative until its been confirmed by several independent sources. Frankly, Watergate, if it happened today, would not be a credible story because a cub reporter relying on a single unnamed source is as likely to be relaying propaganda as the truth.


The leaks about the phone conversations with the Mexican and Australian leaders are real because Trump himself complained about the leaks. But I think you are citing a small minority of news stories which is not sufficient to dismiss them all.


I think the difference in our evaluation is that I listed a subset of all the "News" that is sensational, not easily verifiable, etc. Look, the Times and Post are overwhelmingly accurate when they report on things that they have seen, on press briefing, releases, court decisions, etc (although thier science reporting seems populated with people who can't pass Physics 1). But, most places do that just fine, even something like the Washington Examiner or NY Post. What we relied on them is to filter these leaks fro ex-state department, ex-cia, and current government employees + the machinations of foreign affairs. Its in these areas where the public can't see the evidence, can't make sense of it, etc. This is why QC exists, and IMO they are significantly below the needed level of skepticism towards partisans and semi-partisans.

A good example I'd say was during the Hillary 9/11 collapse. Any sane reporter knows to doubt the first statement made by the campaign about what happened. First, it's a campaign, they lie. Second, it was a Clinton campaign that is known for these weird non-truths that get them in trouble long term for no rational reason. But sure, let's go with the "overheated" report and run it as fact until Fox points out it was 60 degrees.


But what's silly is that people are drawing some kind inference that stories from the Post/Times should be ignored if they have any unnamed sources or unnamed sources in the administration. None of the stories you mentioned did that. If anything, what you named was reporters directly misrepresenting or sensationalizing the things they themselves had heard.

If you can find me a NYT story where their unnamed sources lied, I'm interested. But lately the stupid stories have not relied upon unnamed sources being fabricated or misquoted, just poor reporting on events (e.g. that stupid thing about crowd size being the job of whoever).

This attitude is a big part of why I'm convinced the "MSM" cannot possibly repair their image in the eyes of many on the right. The inertial weight of decades of being called biased is impossible to overcome, even if you break stories that turn out to be true and force a resignation.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 14 2017 20:10 GMT
#137409
kind of like saying the pizzagate issue was a prime example of lying stupidly on the part of comet pingpong.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3304 Posts
February 14 2017 20:24 GMT
#137410
Okay, so House Oversight Committee (Chaffetz) says he won't investigate further, partly because Flynn already resigned and partly because by his description this stuff is more under House Intel Committee's jurisdiction. House Intel Committee (Nunes) says he won't investigate further, and as a fun bonus said the Flynn story was a whole lot of nothing drummed up by opponents of the president. That was 3 or 4 hours before Flynn resigned.

The Republicans in Congress don't seem very interested in getting to the bottom of this, which is a little hard to figure. The conspiratorially minded might think they're in on the scandal, but if this was all one big coverup I'd think it'd be a little more organized. The conventional wisdom is that they're just using Trump to get their policies across, but surely they realize this is eroding all their political momentum. Wouldn't they rather just get to the bottom of it and get it out of the news cycle?
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
February 14 2017 20:27 GMT
#137411
The answer is pretty simple. The Republicans think better to betray the country than the party. The President's National Security Adviser being a designated a national security risk, and the fact that the President knowingly kept him included in matters of national security despite knowing this, is apparently a partisan issue.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 14 2017 20:39 GMT
#137412
They need Trumps base to get re-elected, so they won’t do anything unless more pressure is applied. And am sure the press is happy to do it. There is so much blood in the water it is a feeding frenzy.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-14 20:52:23
February 14 2017 20:51 GMT
#137413
On February 15 2017 05:24 ChristianS wrote:
Okay, so House Oversight Committee (Chaffetz) says he won't investigate further, partly because Flynn already resigned and partly because by his description this stuff is more under House Intel Committee's jurisdiction. House Intel Committee (Nunes) says he won't investigate further, and as a fun bonus said the Flynn story was a whole lot of nothing drummed up by opponents of the president. That was 3 or 4 hours before Flynn resigned.

The Republicans in Congress don't seem very interested in getting to the bottom of this, which is a little hard to figure. The conspiratorially minded might think they're in on the scandal, but if this was all one big coverup I'd think it'd be a little more organized. The conventional wisdom is that they're just using Trump to get their policies across, but surely they realize this is eroding all their political momentum. Wouldn't they rather just get to the bottom of it and get it out of the news cycle?

Oversight isn't known for being particularly quiet and news-free.

The Congressional Republicans probably just see this as a "meh, whatever" issue. Certain others see this as an "omg Russia Russia Russia!@!@!@!@!" issue but these days most of those are Democrats.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9644 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-14 20:52:43
February 14 2017 20:52 GMT
#137414
On February 15 2017 05:27 KwarK wrote:
The answer is pretty simple. The Republicans think better to betray the country than the party. The President's National Security Adviser being a designated a national security risk, and the fact that the President knowingly kept him included in matters of national security despite knowing this, is apparently a partisan issue.


**--there is obviously no evidence to support this:
occam's razor leads me to believe that he didn't get canned due to his security risk to the nation but that instead he's the near-president source. this easy explanation, imo, explains all of the inconsistencies in all the stories. and why it's a partisan issue.
Trainrunnef
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States601 Posts
February 14 2017 20:59 GMT
#137415
On February 15 2017 05:51 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2017 05:24 ChristianS wrote:
Okay, so House Oversight Committee (Chaffetz) says he won't investigate further, partly because Flynn already resigned and partly because by his description this stuff is more under House Intel Committee's jurisdiction. House Intel Committee (Nunes) says he won't investigate further, and as a fun bonus said the Flynn story was a whole lot of nothing drummed up by opponents of the president. That was 3 or 4 hours before Flynn resigned.

The Republicans in Congress don't seem very interested in getting to the bottom of this, which is a little hard to figure. The conspiratorially minded might think they're in on the scandal, but if this was all one big coverup I'd think it'd be a little more organized. The conventional wisdom is that they're just using Trump to get their policies across, but surely they realize this is eroding all their political momentum. Wouldn't they rather just get to the bottom of it and get it out of the news cycle?

Oversight isn't known for being particularly quiet and news-free.

The Congressional Republicans probably just see this as a "meh, whatever" issue. Certain others see this as an "omg Russia Russia Russia!@!@!@!@!" issue but these days most of those are Democrats.



I think they are afraid to acknowledge and investigate the possibility that this could be bigger because they believe they will end up as collateral damage. Like Cuomo said during his interview if it was a democrat and their National security advisor in the driver seat I'm sure their opinion would be very different. (As i am also sure the democrats would be playing the same game as the republicans are now).
I am, therefore I pee
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
February 14 2017 21:04 GMT
#137416
On February 15 2017 05:59 Trainrunnef wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2017 05:51 LegalLord wrote:
On February 15 2017 05:24 ChristianS wrote:
Okay, so House Oversight Committee (Chaffetz) says he won't investigate further, partly because Flynn already resigned and partly because by his description this stuff is more under House Intel Committee's jurisdiction. House Intel Committee (Nunes) says he won't investigate further, and as a fun bonus said the Flynn story was a whole lot of nothing drummed up by opponents of the president. That was 3 or 4 hours before Flynn resigned.

The Republicans in Congress don't seem very interested in getting to the bottom of this, which is a little hard to figure. The conspiratorially minded might think they're in on the scandal, but if this was all one big coverup I'd think it'd be a little more organized. The conventional wisdom is that they're just using Trump to get their policies across, but surely they realize this is eroding all their political momentum. Wouldn't they rather just get to the bottom of it and get it out of the news cycle?

Oversight isn't known for being particularly quiet and news-free.

The Congressional Republicans probably just see this as a "meh, whatever" issue. Certain others see this as an "omg Russia Russia Russia!@!@!@!@!" issue but these days most of those are Democrats.



I think they are afraid to acknowledge and investigate the possibility that this could be bigger because they believe they will end up as collateral damage. Like Cuomo said during his interview if it was a democrat and their National security advisor in the driver seat I'm sure their opinion would be very different. (As i am also sure the democrats would be playing the same game as the republicans are now).

I don't think too much of this is actually about Russia. It's mostly about how this side or that side can gain an upper hand, in an environment where pretty much anything goes.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22702 Posts
February 14 2017 21:04 GMT
#137417
On February 15 2017 05:24 ChristianS wrote:
Okay, so House Oversight Committee (Chaffetz) says he won't investigate further, partly because Flynn already resigned and partly because by his description this stuff is more under House Intel Committee's jurisdiction. House Intel Committee (Nunes) says he won't investigate further, and as a fun bonus said the Flynn story was a whole lot of nothing drummed up by opponents of the president. That was 3 or 4 hours before Flynn resigned.

The Republicans in Congress don't seem very interested in getting to the bottom of this, which is a little hard to figure. The conspiratorially minded might think they're in on the scandal, but if this was all one big coverup I'd think it'd be a little more organized. The conventional wisdom is that they're just using Trump to get their policies across, but surely they realize this is eroding all their political momentum. Wouldn't they rather just get to the bottom of it and get it out of the news cycle?

Because the chance that Trump is involved and would have to step down.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 14 2017 21:16 GMT
#137418
lol occam's razor certainly points to the obvious story.

it depends on what you know though
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
February 14 2017 21:20 GMT
#137419
U.S. President Donald Trump made it clear he expects Russia to return Crimea to Ukraine and reduce violence in Ukraine, White House spokesman Sean Spicer said on Tuesday.

"President Trump has made it very clear that he expects the Russian government to de-escalate violence in the Ukraine and return Crimea," Spicer said at a daily news briefing. "At the same time, he fully expects to and wants to get along with Russia."

Source

So, as I was saying a few days ago: no detente with Russia is going to happen. It was never a likelihood.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 14 2017 21:23 GMT
#137420
If you believe them, which seems naïve at this point.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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