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On February 09 2017 12:28 Sermokala wrote:
It can be but it was pushed for being a federal level regulation after sandy hook but there was never definitive word sent around about what exactly the universal background check system would be (the background checks you get now are a joke basically) and the momentum for it was squandered in NRA disinformation. Incidentally this was also where the term "assault weapon" was invented and the word still hasn't gotten around what that means either.
Are mentally ill people or felons passing background checks and getting firearms? I haven't seen stories on this.
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On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico.
Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing.
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On February 09 2017 12:35 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:28 Sermokala wrote:
It can be but it was pushed for being a federal level regulation after sandy hook but there was never definitive word sent around about what exactly the universal background check system would be (the background checks you get now are a joke basically) and the momentum for it was squandered in NRA disinformation. Incidentally this was also where the term "assault weapon" was invented and the word still hasn't gotten around what that means either. Are mentally ill people or felons passing background checks and getting firearms? I haven't seen stories on this.
Basically yeah you can't add mentally ill people to a background check database beacuse its their private medical information. Felons tend to be added to more databases but obviously there isn't a national database.
And because I'm sure someones going to bring it up no if you're not on the patriot act no fly list you can buy a gun beacuse taking someones constitutional rights shouldn't be left to unelected clerks adding unproven names to a list that isn't notifying people or is able to challenge to get their rights back if they're not a terrorist.
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On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing.
You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it.
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I wonder if we could make a government system which made laws and policy based on sound rigorous analysis in a highly reliable way with low corruption. or how many centuries it'll take to develop such a thing.
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I just read Trump's Twitter for the first time in a week.
They seem kind of like the intermittent ramblings of a deluded madman when you see a bunch of new ones all together.
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On February 09 2017 12:44 LegalLord wrote:
I just read Trump's Twitter for the first time in a week.
They seem kind of like the intermittent ramblings of a deluded madman when you see a bunch of new ones all together.
so they seem like what they are. makes sense. (sorry, but that was too good an opening)
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On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it.
Like the political will after a classroom full of kids gets shot up. You need to do the same thing that politicians do for every other thing that they do in their careers including getting elected. Otherwise they're just bad politicians and I'm sorry but this generation of democrats are just bad at their jobs.
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On February 09 2017 12:46 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. Like the political will after a classroom full of kids gets shot up. You need to do the same thing that politicians do for every other thing that they do in their careers including getting elected. Otherwise they're just bad politicians and I'm sorry but this generation of democrats are just bad at their jobs.
Sandy Hook was never going to be that. No gun control legislation was going to be passed while Obama was in office and McConnell was in control of the Senate. It sucks, but that thing never would have made it to the floor.
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On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it.
or switch to a form of government where disinforming the ill-informed and foolish isn't relevant to establishing policy.
sadly people too much like the "idea" of democracy to get the buy-in necessary to seriously consider alternatives structures.
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On February 09 2017 12:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:46 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. Like the political will after a classroom full of kids gets shot up. You need to do the same thing that politicians do for every other thing that they do in their careers including getting elected. Otherwise they're just bad politicians and I'm sorry but this generation of democrats are just bad at their jobs. Sandy Hook was never going to be that. No gun control legislation was going to be passed while Obama was in office and McConnell was in control of the Senate. It sucks, but that thing never would have made it to the floor.
It would have had a decent chance if it didn't make up words like "assault weapon" or try to make a government background check system up without telling people how it wasn't going to be a gun registry.
The themes that people didn't like about national background checks came out pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. democrats simply didn't address any of them other then to say "oh no thats not true it just won't be" and thought it would work.
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On February 09 2017 12:49 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. or switch to a form of government where disinforming the ill-informed and foolish isn't relevant to establishing policy. sadly people too much like the "idea" of democracy to get the buy-in necessary to seriously consider alternatives structures.
Creating the government we currently have was a miracle and nearly imploded in national bankruptcy and military revolt. You need to look to Canada or some other small land to create the government of the future.
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On February 09 2017 12:52 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:48 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:46 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. Like the political will after a classroom full of kids gets shot up. You need to do the same thing that politicians do for every other thing that they do in their careers including getting elected. Otherwise they're just bad politicians and I'm sorry but this generation of democrats are just bad at their jobs. Sandy Hook was never going to be that. No gun control legislation was going to be passed while Obama was in office and McConnell was in control of the Senate. It sucks, but that thing never would have made it to the floor. It would have had a decent chance if it didn't make up words like "assault weapon" or try to make a government background check system up without telling people how it wasn't going to be a gun registry. The themes that people didn't like about national background checks came out pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. democrats simply didn't address any of them other then to say "oh no thats not true it just won't be" and thought it would work.
The focus on the mythical assault weapon is a problem for the left. I would prefer creating a nation wide voluntary data base that states can opt into. At least then the data base exists and we can blame the states who refuse to participate.
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On February 09 2017 12:52 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:48 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:46 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. Like the political will after a classroom full of kids gets shot up. You need to do the same thing that politicians do for every other thing that they do in their careers including getting elected. Otherwise they're just bad politicians and I'm sorry but this generation of democrats are just bad at their jobs. Sandy Hook was never going to be that. No gun control legislation was going to be passed while Obama was in office and McConnell was in control of the Senate. It sucks, but that thing never would have made it to the floor. It would have had a decent chance if it didn't make up words like "assault weapon" or try to make a government background check system up without telling people how it wasn't going to be a gun registry. The themes that people didn't like about national background checks came out pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. democrats simply didn't address any of them other then to say "oh no thats not true it just won't be" and thought it would work.
This stuff is plainly obvious, which is why it only makes sense to me if they are terrible at their job, or they fail on purpose.
I've had it drilled into my head here that we shouldn't presume foul-play where simple incompetence suffices, so I'll lean toward incompetent over intentionally bad. But sooner or later their supporters have to acknowledge Democrats just suck at winning these fights.
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On February 09 2017 12:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:52 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:48 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:46 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. Like the political will after a classroom full of kids gets shot up. You need to do the same thing that politicians do for every other thing that they do in their careers including getting elected. Otherwise they're just bad politicians and I'm sorry but this generation of democrats are just bad at their jobs. Sandy Hook was never going to be that. No gun control legislation was going to be passed while Obama was in office and McConnell was in control of the Senate. It sucks, but that thing never would have made it to the floor. It would have had a decent chance if it didn't make up words like "assault weapon" or try to make a government background check system up without telling people how it wasn't going to be a gun registry. The themes that people didn't like about national background checks came out pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. democrats simply didn't address any of them other then to say "oh no thats not true it just won't be" and thought it would work. This stuff is plainly obvious, which is why it only makes sense to me if they are terrible at their job, or they fail on purpose. I've had it drilled into my head here that we shouldn't presume foul-play where simple incompetence suffices, so I'll lean toward incompetent over intentionally bad.
Never underestimate the ability of liberals to talk down to gun owners. It's a sport over here.
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On February 09 2017 12:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:49 zlefin wrote:On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. or switch to a form of government where disinforming the ill-informed and foolish isn't relevant to establishing policy. sadly people too much like the "idea" of democracy to get the buy-in necessary to seriously consider alternatives structures. Creating the government we currently have was a miracle and nearly imploded in national bankruptcy and military revolt. You need to look to Canada or some other small land to create the government of the future.
it's not about size, it's about the internal issues. a country with significant unresolved internal issues is gonna be prone to future problems.
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On February 09 2017 13:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 09 2017 12:52 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:48 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:46 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. Like the political will after a classroom full of kids gets shot up. You need to do the same thing that politicians do for every other thing that they do in their careers including getting elected. Otherwise they're just bad politicians and I'm sorry but this generation of democrats are just bad at their jobs. Sandy Hook was never going to be that. No gun control legislation was going to be passed while Obama was in office and McConnell was in control of the Senate. It sucks, but that thing never would have made it to the floor. It would have had a decent chance if it didn't make up words like "assault weapon" or try to make a government background check system up without telling people how it wasn't going to be a gun registry. The themes that people didn't like about national background checks came out pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. democrats simply didn't address any of them other then to say "oh no thats not true it just won't be" and thought it would work. This stuff is plainly obvious, which is why it only makes sense to me if they are terrible at their job, or they fail on purpose. I've had it drilled into my head here that we shouldn't presume foul-play where simple incompetence suffices, so I'll lean toward incompetent over intentionally bad. Never underestimate the ability of liberals to talk down to gun owners. It's a sport over here.
This seems to be the summation of Democrats strategy, tell Republicans how dumb and make fun of how misinformed they are until they vote Democrat. Probably will see similar results to the universal background check, massive public support, but too incompetent to turn it into electoral wins.
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On February 09 2017 13:02 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 12:55 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:49 zlefin wrote:On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. or switch to a form of government where disinforming the ill-informed and foolish isn't relevant to establishing policy. sadly people too much like the "idea" of democracy to get the buy-in necessary to seriously consider alternatives structures. Creating the government we currently have was a miracle and nearly imploded in national bankruptcy and military revolt. You need to look to Canada or some other small land to create the government of the future. it's not about size, it's about the internal issues. a country with significant unresolved internal issues is gonna be prone to future problems.
Our delusion that pure rational thought and arguments will be persuasive to the voting population will always be our undoing. Voters fears and anxieties, not matter how irrational, must be addressed before they will support anything. Any form of government that rejects that concept or tries to dictate reality to its citizens will fail.
On February 09 2017 13:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 13:00 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 09 2017 12:52 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:48 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:46 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. Like the political will after a classroom full of kids gets shot up. You need to do the same thing that politicians do for every other thing that they do in their careers including getting elected. Otherwise they're just bad politicians and I'm sorry but this generation of democrats are just bad at their jobs. Sandy Hook was never going to be that. No gun control legislation was going to be passed while Obama was in office and McConnell was in control of the Senate. It sucks, but that thing never would have made it to the floor. It would have had a decent chance if it didn't make up words like "assault weapon" or try to make a government background check system up without telling people how it wasn't going to be a gun registry. The themes that people didn't like about national background checks came out pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. democrats simply didn't address any of them other then to say "oh no thats not true it just won't be" and thought it would work. This stuff is plainly obvious, which is why it only makes sense to me if they are terrible at their job, or they fail on purpose. I've had it drilled into my head here that we shouldn't presume foul-play where simple incompetence suffices, so I'll lean toward incompetent over intentionally bad. Never underestimate the ability of liberals to talk down to gun owners. It's a sport over here. This seems to be the summation of Democrats strategy, tell Republicans how dumb and make fun of how misinformed they are until they vote Democrat. Probably will see similar results to the universal background check, massive public support, but too incompetent to turn it into electoral wins.
Yes, the belief that if "you just present your good data and solid studies of the subject one more time, the people will see the light", has been the core problem with the Democrats for decades. They want to govern and pass what they believe are good laws and sell them as little as possible. While the Republicans promise their voters Unicorns, get elected and blame the Democrats for holding back all the Unicorns that don't exist.
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On February 09 2017 13:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 13:02 zlefin wrote:On February 09 2017 12:55 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:49 zlefin wrote:On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. or switch to a form of government where disinforming the ill-informed and foolish isn't relevant to establishing policy. sadly people too much like the "idea" of democracy to get the buy-in necessary to seriously consider alternatives structures. Creating the government we currently have was a miracle and nearly imploded in national bankruptcy and military revolt. You need to look to Canada or some other small land to create the government of the future. it's not about size, it's about the internal issues. a country with significant unresolved internal issues is gonna be prone to future problems. Our delusion that pure rational thought and arguments will be persuasive to the voting population will always be our undoing. Voters fears and anxieties, not matter how irrational, must be addressed before they will support anything. Any form of government that rejects that concept or tries to dictate reality to its citizens will fail.
the voters opinions would be rather less important if there wasn't voting. so that's a bit inapt and off-point. it's not "our delusion" cuz i'm fully aware it's not true.
i never said to make it persuasive, the point is to remove voters from the equation while still getting good results (if achievable) therefore making their irrationality irrelevant.
of course people will still irrationally revolt from time to time.
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On February 09 2017 13:12 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 13:08 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 13:02 zlefin wrote:On February 09 2017 12:55 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:49 zlefin wrote:On February 09 2017 12:43 Plansix wrote:On February 09 2017 12:36 Sermokala wrote:On February 09 2017 12:33 Plansix wrote:
That is the real problem. Any reasonable law that is crafted will be smothered under the weight of NRA disinformation and straight up lies. It is disappointing and hopefully the public catches on. But until then, they will all get rich selling assault weapons on the boarder to Mexico. Any reasonable politician supporting a law should expect NRA disinformation and lies and be a politician and combat it. Its literally their only job to succeed at this sort of thing. You need to convince people to not believe the disinformation, which is problematic. Especially since the main selling point is "That school shooting won't happen in your area because we made you an action hero." There has to be overwhelming political will behind it. or switch to a form of government where disinforming the ill-informed and foolish isn't relevant to establishing policy. sadly people too much like the "idea" of democracy to get the buy-in necessary to seriously consider alternatives structures. Creating the government we currently have was a miracle and nearly imploded in national bankruptcy and military revolt. You need to look to Canada or some other small land to create the government of the future. it's not about size, it's about the internal issues. a country with significant unresolved internal issues is gonna be prone to future problems. Our delusion that pure rational thought and arguments will be persuasive to the voting population will always be our undoing. Voters fears and anxieties, not matter how irrational, must be addressed before they will support anything. Any form of government that rejects that concept or tries to dictate reality to its citizens will fail. the voters opinions would be rather less important if there wasn't voting. so that's a bit inapt and off-point. i never said to make it persuasive, the point is to remove voters from the equation while still getting good results (if achievable) therefore making their irrationality irrelevant. of course people will still irrationally revolt from time to time.
I believe they will quite rationally destroy that government that they have no say in and have no reason to trust. Governments only work if the citizens have faith in the systems.
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EPT
