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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On February 06 2017 14:44 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 14:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2017 13:34 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2017 05:14 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 00:26 TheTenthDoc wrote:For reference, most metrics that I've seen have shown incoming illegal immigration from Mexico reaching a nadir in the past several years (here's one example from Pew). I think there's also some research showing that border-hopping is less and less of a problem compared to folks overstaying work visas. I like where you're going with metrics and sources, they're real important. You may recall in 2014 the big surge of unaccompanied minors was from Central America, not Mexico. Growth or steady numbers in illegal immigration across the Mexican border includes growing Central American numbers, which are not themselves Mexican nationals. As much as Trump wants to say Mexicans it's not just Mexicans border hopping. As an aside, Pew is right when it sees a leveled-off illegal immigrant population: the problem has been going for so long and the population is so large that deaths are balancing new arrivals. Naturally, children of illegals born here are granted birthright citizenship so the total population of illegal immigrant origin grows. Last I saw, visa overstays were 40% of total illegal immigration numbers. But it's about time for me to refresh my numbers from last time I did extensive research for debates. I don't know if Trump will raise deportation numbers for lawbreaking immigrants overstaying their visas, because the public pressure and consciousness isn't as high. I wonder, which do conservatives think is less desirable to have in the US: 1. A hard working, tax paying, church-going Christian, undocumented, family 2. A welfare dependent, criminal, addicted, white family like you'd find in Owsley County, Kentucky. Which family is better for the country? Wait, so they're both criminals in jail, but one's a citizen? Is this even a question? I don't expect the right, legal decision to be the easy one to make, but the law's the law. Neither is in jail, and I'm not asking about what the law is, I'm asking which do you/conservatives think is more desirable to have in the US. Listen, I won't always engage on rules established on top of hypotheticals because it simply isn't worth my time to find out all the 'what ifs' involved. I'd rather have a society established on the rule of law, so if you put before me a criminal alien and a criminal citizen, it's desirable to follow the goddamn law in both cases. Now you hint at an excon because it's hard to be dependent on welfare if the prison system is providing your welfare (different kind than usually referenced), and addictions are terribly hard to reliably service in prison. Simultaneously, undocumented in a sane society would be subject to deportation, so maybe we have two men/women on the run from the law or one in deportation proceedings and the other awaiting the judge. You might think it's worth carving some exception for illegal alien nice guy, but the long term effects of selectively enforcing laws is poison to the civil society. I certainly do not want to be governed by rule by man instead of rule by law; and any question of "desirable" does bring into question first principles of why we'd want impartially enforce laws in the first place. Don't give a conservative the bullshit about "what the law is." No matter if I agree with the law or not, desirability refers back to the laws on the books rather than the laws I advocate for that might exist in the future, unless you want to talk slavery or Plessy v. Ferguson situations. The only way it's Yango's "That's not really answering the question GH is asking at all" is if we change the hypothetical or put me in the place of commuting this man's sentence/legislating amnesty singlehandedly for the crime as absolute monarch. I see only the long term view of society in this case. Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 12:12 IgnE wrote:
like how can we take seriously a man who talks about a "nation of laws" and "securing the border" when he doesn't even do his part to secure his community? you waiting for someone else to do the dirty work? One of the fun parts of sanctuary cities is these things become catch and release. I wager you're interested in the rhetorical point, not all the shameful laws as being practiced, so I'll only add you should come down here and conduct an experiment to secure the community just to learn it's efficacy in practice. Also, try your free speech rights in Berkeley next with some unpopular opinions while you're at it. The protesters might have run out of mace and Molotovs. Or maybe just recall how much rule of law mattered when Trump advocated massive illegal deportations during the campaign. Nothing short of that will matter, it smacks of the same discretion exercised by the feds when they choose not to arrest for drug offenses in states crafting rules regulating drug use ... not laws, just extra-legal discretion.
Since you're focusing on the criminal aspect perhaps me asking the question differently will better answer what I'm wondering.
Basically, is being in the country illegally (but otherwise being a model citizen) more detrimental to the country, than being a jobless, (legally) drugged up, welfare dependent, white family with right of blood* citizenship, from the conservative perspective?
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On February 06 2017 15:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 14:44 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 14:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2017 13:34 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2017 05:14 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 00:26 TheTenthDoc wrote:For reference, most metrics that I've seen have shown incoming illegal immigration from Mexico reaching a nadir in the past several years (here's one example from Pew). I think there's also some research showing that border-hopping is less and less of a problem compared to folks overstaying work visas. I like where you're going with metrics and sources, they're real important. You may recall in 2014 the big surge of unaccompanied minors was from Central America, not Mexico. Growth or steady numbers in illegal immigration across the Mexican border includes growing Central American numbers, which are not themselves Mexican nationals. As much as Trump wants to say Mexicans it's not just Mexicans border hopping. As an aside, Pew is right when it sees a leveled-off illegal immigrant population: the problem has been going for so long and the population is so large that deaths are balancing new arrivals. Naturally, children of illegals born here are granted birthright citizenship so the total population of illegal immigrant origin grows. Last I saw, visa overstays were 40% of total illegal immigration numbers. But it's about time for me to refresh my numbers from last time I did extensive research for debates. I don't know if Trump will raise deportation numbers for lawbreaking immigrants overstaying their visas, because the public pressure and consciousness isn't as high. I wonder, which do conservatives think is less desirable to have in the US: 1. A hard working, tax paying, church-going Christian, undocumented, family 2. A welfare dependent, criminal, addicted, white family like you'd find in Owsley County, Kentucky. Which family is better for the country? Wait, so they're both criminals in jail, but one's a citizen? Is this even a question? I don't expect the right, legal decision to be the easy one to make, but the law's the law. Neither is in jail, and I'm not asking about what the law is, I'm asking which do you/conservatives think is more desirable to have in the US. Listen, I won't always engage on rules established on top of hypotheticals because it simply isn't worth my time to find out all the 'what ifs' involved. I'd rather have a society established on the rule of law, so if you put before me a criminal alien and a criminal citizen, it's desirable to follow the goddamn law in both cases. Now you hint at an excon because it's hard to be dependent on welfare if the prison system is providing your welfare (different kind than usually referenced), and addictions are terribly hard to reliably service in prison. Simultaneously, undocumented in a sane society would be subject to deportation, so maybe we have two men/women on the run from the law or one in deportation proceedings and the other awaiting the judge. You might think it's worth carving some exception for illegal alien nice guy, but the long term effects of selectively enforcing laws is poison to the civil society. I certainly do not want to be governed by rule by man instead of rule by law; and any question of "desirable" does bring into question first principles of why we'd want impartially enforce laws in the first place. Don't give a conservative the bullshit about "what the law is." No matter if I agree with the law or not, desirability refers back to the laws on the books rather than the laws I advocate for that might exist in the future, unless you want to talk slavery or Plessy v. Ferguson situations. The only way it's Yango's "That's not really answering the question GH is asking at all" is if we change the hypothetical or put me in the place of commuting this man's sentence/legislating amnesty singlehandedly for the crime as absolute monarch. I see only the long term view of society in this case. On February 06 2017 12:12 IgnE wrote:
like how can we take seriously a man who talks about a "nation of laws" and "securing the border" when he doesn't even do his part to secure his community? you waiting for someone else to do the dirty work? One of the fun parts of sanctuary cities is these things become catch and release. I wager you're interested in the rhetorical point, not all the shameful laws as being practiced, so I'll only add you should come down here and conduct an experiment to secure the community just to learn it's efficacy in practice. Also, try your free speech rights in Berkeley next with some unpopular opinions while you're at it. The protesters might have run out of mace and Molotovs. Or maybe just recall how much rule of law mattered when Trump advocated massive illegal deportations during the campaign. Nothing short of that will matter, it smacks of the same discretion exercised by the feds when they choose not to arrest for drug offenses in states crafting rules regulating drug use ... not laws, just extra-legal discretion. Since you're focusing on the criminal aspect perhaps me asking the question differently will better answer what I'm wondering. Basically, is being in the country illegally (but otherwise being a model citizen) more detrimental to the country, than being a jobless, (legally) drugged up, welfare dependent, white family with birthright citizenship, from the conservative perspective?
I feel like he answered this in the affirmative already. Specifically, in the sense that selectively applying the law would lead to undermining the law in general. IE, that instance of denial of the law leads to undermining all laws.
While I disagree, it was very cogent.
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On February 06 2017 14:44 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 12:12 IgnE wrote:
like how can we take seriously a man who talks about a "nation of laws" and "securing the border" when he doesn't even do his part to secure his community? you waiting for someone else to do the dirty work? One of the fun parts of sanctuary cities is these things become catch and release. I wager you're interested in the rhetorical point, not all the shameful laws as being practiced, so I'll only add you should come down here and conduct an experiment to secure the community just to learn it's efficacy in practice. Also, try your free speech rights in Berkeley next with some unpopular opinions while you're at it. The protesters might have run out of mace and Molotovs. Or maybe just recall how much rule of law mattered when Trump advocated massive illegal deportations during the campaign. Nothing short of that will matter, it smacks of the same discretion exercised by the feds when they choose not to arrest for drug offenses in states crafting rules regulating drug use ... not laws, just extra-legal discretion.
What experiment would you suggest?
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For that matter what should be the role of the law abiding citizen? Do you think you have a duty to report illegals? Do you find it personally distasteful or do you just consider yourself to live in a lawless society where reporting accomplishes nothing and is a waste of your time? Aren't you more the deontological type?
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On February 06 2017 15:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 14:44 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 14:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2017 13:34 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2017 05:14 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 00:26 TheTenthDoc wrote:For reference, most metrics that I've seen have shown incoming illegal immigration from Mexico reaching a nadir in the past several years (here's one example from Pew). I think there's also some research showing that border-hopping is less and less of a problem compared to folks overstaying work visas. I like where you're going with metrics and sources, they're real important. You may recall in 2014 the big surge of unaccompanied minors was from Central America, not Mexico. Growth or steady numbers in illegal immigration across the Mexican border includes growing Central American numbers, which are not themselves Mexican nationals. As much as Trump wants to say Mexicans it's not just Mexicans border hopping. As an aside, Pew is right when it sees a leveled-off illegal immigrant population: the problem has been going for so long and the population is so large that deaths are balancing new arrivals. Naturally, children of illegals born here are granted birthright citizenship so the total population of illegal immigrant origin grows. Last I saw, visa overstays were 40% of total illegal immigration numbers. But it's about time for me to refresh my numbers from last time I did extensive research for debates. I don't know if Trump will raise deportation numbers for lawbreaking immigrants overstaying their visas, because the public pressure and consciousness isn't as high. I wonder, which do conservatives think is less desirable to have in the US: 1. A hard working, tax paying, church-going Christian, undocumented, family 2. A welfare dependent, criminal, addicted, white family like you'd find in Owsley County, Kentucky. Which family is better for the country? Wait, so they're both criminals in jail, but one's a citizen? Is this even a question? I don't expect the right, legal decision to be the easy one to make, but the law's the law. Neither is in jail, and I'm not asking about what the law is, I'm asking which do you/conservatives think is more desirable to have in the US. Listen, I won't always engage on rules established on top of hypotheticals because it simply isn't worth my time to find out all the 'what ifs' involved. I'd rather have a society established on the rule of law, so if you put before me a criminal alien and a criminal citizen, it's desirable to follow the goddamn law in both cases. Now you hint at an excon because it's hard to be dependent on welfare if the prison system is providing your welfare (different kind than usually referenced), and addictions are terribly hard to reliably service in prison. Simultaneously, undocumented in a sane society would be subject to deportation, so maybe we have two men/women on the run from the law or one in deportation proceedings and the other awaiting the judge. You might think it's worth carving some exception for illegal alien nice guy, but the long term effects of selectively enforcing laws is poison to the civil society. I certainly do not want to be governed by rule by man instead of rule by law; and any question of "desirable" does bring into question first principles of why we'd want impartially enforce laws in the first place. Don't give a conservative the bullshit about "what the law is." No matter if I agree with the law or not, desirability refers back to the laws on the books rather than the laws I advocate for that might exist in the future, unless you want to talk slavery or Plessy v. Ferguson situations. The only way it's Yango's "That's not really answering the question GH is asking at all" is if we change the hypothetical or put me in the place of commuting this man's sentence/legislating amnesty singlehandedly for the crime as absolute monarch. I see only the long term view of society in this case. On February 06 2017 12:12 IgnE wrote:
like how can we take seriously a man who talks about a "nation of laws" and "securing the border" when he doesn't even do his part to secure his community? you waiting for someone else to do the dirty work? One of the fun parts of sanctuary cities is these things become catch and release. I wager you're interested in the rhetorical point, not all the shameful laws as being practiced, so I'll only add you should come down here and conduct an experiment to secure the community just to learn it's efficacy in practice. Also, try your free speech rights in Berkeley next with some unpopular opinions while you're at it. The protesters might have run out of mace and Molotovs. Or maybe just recall how much rule of law mattered when Trump advocated massive illegal deportations during the campaign. Nothing short of that will matter, it smacks of the same discretion exercised by the feds when they choose not to arrest for drug offenses in states crafting rules regulating drug use ... not laws, just extra-legal discretion. Since you're focusing on the criminal aspect perhaps me asking the question differently will better answer what I'm wondering. Basically, is being in the country illegally (but otherwise being a model citizen) more detrimental to the country, than being a jobless, (legally) drugged up, welfare dependent, white family with right of blood* citizenship, from the conservative perspective?
I'd rather have the undocumented model citizen, but thems the breaks.
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On February 06 2017 14:44 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 14:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2017 13:34 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2017 05:14 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 00:26 TheTenthDoc wrote:For reference, most metrics that I've seen have shown incoming illegal immigration from Mexico reaching a nadir in the past several years (here's one example from Pew). I think there's also some research showing that border-hopping is less and less of a problem compared to folks overstaying work visas. I like where you're going with metrics and sources, they're real important. You may recall in 2014 the big surge of unaccompanied minors was from Central America, not Mexico. Growth or steady numbers in illegal immigration across the Mexican border includes growing Central American numbers, which are not themselves Mexican nationals. As much as Trump wants to say Mexicans it's not just Mexicans border hopping. As an aside, Pew is right when it sees a leveled-off illegal immigrant population: the problem has been going for so long and the population is so large that deaths are balancing new arrivals. Naturally, children of illegals born here are granted birthright citizenship so the total population of illegal immigrant origin grows. Last I saw, visa overstays were 40% of total illegal immigration numbers. But it's about time for me to refresh my numbers from last time I did extensive research for debates. I don't know if Trump will raise deportation numbers for lawbreaking immigrants overstaying their visas, because the public pressure and consciousness isn't as high. I wonder, which do conservatives think is less desirable to have in the US: 1. A hard working, tax paying, church-going Christian, undocumented, family 2. A welfare dependent, criminal, addicted, white family like you'd find in Owsley County, Kentucky. Which family is better for the country? Wait, so they're both criminals in jail, but one's a citizen? Is this even a question? I don't expect the right, legal decision to be the easy one to make, but the law's the law. Neither is in jail, and I'm not asking about what the law is, I'm asking which do you/conservatives think is more desirable to have in the US. Listen, I won't always engage on rules established on top of hypotheticals because it simply isn't worth my time to find out all the 'what ifs' involved. I'd rather have a society established on the rule of law, so if you put before me a criminal alien and a criminal citizen, it's desirable to follow the goddamn law in both cases. Now you hint at an excon because it's hard to be dependent on welfare if the prison system is providing your welfare (different kind than usually referenced), and addictions are terribly hard to reliably service in prison. Simultaneously, undocumented in a sane society would be subject to deportation, so maybe we have two men/women on the run from the law or one in deportation proceedings and the other awaiting the judge. You might think it's worth carving some exception for illegal alien nice guy, but the long term effects of selectively enforcing laws is poison to the civil society. I certainly do not want to be governed by rule by man instead of rule by law; and any question of "desirable" does bring into question first principles of why we'd want impartially enforce laws in the first place. Don't give a conservative the bullshit about "what the law is." No matter if I agree with the law or not, desirability refers back to the laws on the books rather than the laws I advocate for that might exist in the future, unless you want to talk slavery or Plessy v. Ferguson situations. The only way it's Yango's "That's not really answering the question GH is asking at all" is if we change the hypothetical or put me in the place of commuting this man's sentence/legislating amnesty singlehandedly for the crime as absolute monarch. I see only the long term view of society in this case.
I like the reply.
Though it is supposedly the will of the people shapes the law, as the law can be amended, so engaging in hypotheticals about preferences isn't always that useless. Comparing these two situations is a bit useless - you can be supportive of resolutions to both at the same time.
An illegal immigrant is by definition illegal and shouldn't be in the country. But you could imagine the extreme progression of an open border policy resulting in a changed definition of illegal immigrant, and the thousands of stages in between such as when an "illegal"/"undocumented" immigrant is allowed in the country but unable to benefit from state or federal services. In that case, they are illegal but society believes their presence is advantageous to the whole and thus disagreed with the punishments and moved to amend the law.
In effect this is what's going on in California, conflicting ideas with the federal government about illegal immigration and thus a refusal to cooperate with federal authorities in deportation. Or in Arizona potentially challenging the 14th Amendment? You can personally be on different sides of the fence, gradients of the same issue.
More reading on illegal immigration
ideas.time.com/2012/09/21/immigration-debate-the-problem-with-the-word-illegal/
But describing an immigrant as illegal is legally inaccurate. Being in the U.S. without proper documents is a civil offense, not a criminal one.
...
“As a general rule, it is not a crime for a movable alien to remain in the United States.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/18/careful-what-you-wish-for-here-s-what-california-would-look-like-without-illegal-immigrants.html
Here’s what they don’t seem very troubled about: the fact that illegal immigration has become a cash cow for California. A recent report by researchers at the University of Southern California, for example, says immigrants who are in California illegally make up nearly 10 percent of the state’s workers and contribute $130 billion annually to its gross domestic product.
www.futurity.org/why-people-take-the-risk-of-illegal-immigration/
Ryo found that while cost-benefit calculations such as perceptions of job availability in Mexico and dangers of crossing the border do play a significant role in Mexicans’ decisions about whether to enter the US illegally, non-economic factors matter as well.
“For example, perceptions about the legitimacy of US legal authority, the morality of violating US immigration laws, and social norms on illegal border crossings are significantly related to people’s intentions to migrate illegally,” she says.
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On February 06 2017 15:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 14:44 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 14:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2017 13:34 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2017 05:14 Danglars wrote:On February 06 2017 00:26 TheTenthDoc wrote:For reference, most metrics that I've seen have shown incoming illegal immigration from Mexico reaching a nadir in the past several years (here's one example from Pew). I think there's also some research showing that border-hopping is less and less of a problem compared to folks overstaying work visas. I like where you're going with metrics and sources, they're real important. You may recall in 2014 the big surge of unaccompanied minors was from Central America, not Mexico. Growth or steady numbers in illegal immigration across the Mexican border includes growing Central American numbers, which are not themselves Mexican nationals. As much as Trump wants to say Mexicans it's not just Mexicans border hopping. As an aside, Pew is right when it sees a leveled-off illegal immigrant population: the problem has been going for so long and the population is so large that deaths are balancing new arrivals. Naturally, children of illegals born here are granted birthright citizenship so the total population of illegal immigrant origin grows. Last I saw, visa overstays were 40% of total illegal immigration numbers. But it's about time for me to refresh my numbers from last time I did extensive research for debates. I don't know if Trump will raise deportation numbers for lawbreaking immigrants overstaying their visas, because the public pressure and consciousness isn't as high. I wonder, which do conservatives think is less desirable to have in the US: 1. A hard working, tax paying, church-going Christian, undocumented, family 2. A welfare dependent, criminal, addicted, white family like you'd find in Owsley County, Kentucky. Which family is better for the country? Wait, so they're both criminals in jail, but one's a citizen? Is this even a question? I don't expect the right, legal decision to be the easy one to make, but the law's the law. Neither is in jail, and I'm not asking about what the law is, I'm asking which do you/conservatives think is more desirable to have in the US. Listen, I won't always engage on rules established on top of hypotheticals because it simply isn't worth my time to find out all the 'what ifs' involved. I'd rather have a society established on the rule of law, so if you put before me a criminal alien and a criminal citizen, it's desirable to follow the goddamn law in both cases. Now you hint at an excon because it's hard to be dependent on welfare if the prison system is providing your welfare (different kind than usually referenced), and addictions are terribly hard to reliably service in prison. Simultaneously, undocumented in a sane society would be subject to deportation, so maybe we have two men/women on the run from the law or one in deportation proceedings and the other awaiting the judge. You might think it's worth carving some exception for illegal alien nice guy, but the long term effects of selectively enforcing laws is poison to the civil society. I certainly do not want to be governed by rule by man instead of rule by law; and any question of "desirable" does bring into question first principles of why we'd want impartially enforce laws in the first place. Don't give a conservative the bullshit about "what the law is." No matter if I agree with the law or not, desirability refers back to the laws on the books rather than the laws I advocate for that might exist in the future, unless you want to talk slavery or Plessy v. Ferguson situations. The only way it's Yango's "That's not really answering the question GH is asking at all" is if we change the hypothetical or put me in the place of commuting this man's sentence/legislating amnesty singlehandedly for the crime as absolute monarch. I see only the long term view of society in this case. On February 06 2017 12:12 IgnE wrote:
like how can we take seriously a man who talks about a "nation of laws" and "securing the border" when he doesn't even do his part to secure his community? you waiting for someone else to do the dirty work? One of the fun parts of sanctuary cities is these things become catch and release. I wager you're interested in the rhetorical point, not all the shameful laws as being practiced, so I'll only add you should come down here and conduct an experiment to secure the community just to learn it's efficacy in practice. Also, try your free speech rights in Berkeley next with some unpopular opinions while you're at it. The protesters might have run out of mace and Molotovs. Or maybe just recall how much rule of law mattered when Trump advocated massive illegal deportations during the campaign. Nothing short of that will matter, it smacks of the same discretion exercised by the feds when they choose not to arrest for drug offenses in states crafting rules regulating drug use ... not laws, just extra-legal discretion. Since you're focusing on the criminal aspect perhaps me asking the question differently will better answer what I'm wondering. Basically, is being in the country illegally (but otherwise being a model citizen) more detrimental to the country, than being a jobless, (legally) drugged up, welfare dependent, white family with right of blood* citizenship, from the conservative perspective?
If you really want your conservative to glitch (seems to be the idea) because of accurate cognitive dissonance, add that the illegal immigrant is a white christian dude from Denmark called Lars Andersen, and the drug addict is a african american muslim dude called Mohammed. Please clean up the room from the exploded brain afterward.
Hostility to immigrants is based on the idea that the immigrant is not like us, and no amount of rationalizing can break that down. He is poor, has another skin colour, speaks a different language and prays another god. You then assume he is there to steal your tax money, and has no intention to integrate or to contribute productively (you would notice that when the immigrant is rich, white, from your religion and speaks english perfectly, he is not an immigrant anymore, he is an expat.)
But it's interestong to see Danglar answer that he is not interested in "ifs". The problem with if is that they might break down natural associations that are determining our positions.
One of the reason that has convinced me that anti immigration position was more often than not purely xenophobic is that no amount of rationaly arguments ever change them. You show people figures stating that immigrants commit less crimes and that they are a bonus for the economy, and that changes absolutely nothing. And then, I'm sorry to say, but my only conclusion is that the real stuff is that the person you talk to doesn't really like arabs and would like less of them around.
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He's really lost it in his narcissistic delusions now
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I'm genuinely curious how his little mind rationalizes the historic level of protest against his presidency.
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Germany11787 Posts
We should really stop it with the "Trump says stupid stuff" tweets.
Yes, he says a lot of stupid stuff. All the time. But apparently, that does not matter to the people who elected him. And the rest already know that he constantly says stupid stuff, so one more thing doesn't really matter. And it really deludes the "Trump DOES stupid stuff" posts that are actually relevant. Trump just produces so much shit to be annoyed by that one should focus on the most important parts of his idiocy, because your ability to feel annoyed will run out a lot before trumps ability to churn out amazing quantities of A-grade bullshit like an industrial bullshit machine.
Focus on the parts that actually matter, which are when he does stuff, not when he says stuff.
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Oh, right, anyone who says he didn't do that score he didn't do is a liar. That makes sense.
"The dice didn't say 7 and I didn't end up in Mayfair and I don't owe you 2000$" *whine whine whine, throw the board across the room.*
Ladies and gents, the president of the United States of America.
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On February 06 2017 23:36 Simberto wrote:
We should really stop it with the "Trump says stupid stuff" tweets.
Yes, he says a lot of stupid stuff. All the time. But apparently, that does not matter to the people who elected him. And the rest already know that he constantly says stupid stuff, so one more thing doesn't really matter. And it really deludes the "Trump DOES stupid stuff" posts that are actually relevant. Trump just produces so much shit to be annoyed by that one should focus on the most important parts of his idiocy, because your ability to feel annoyed will run out a lot before trumps ability to churn out amazing quantities of A-grade bullshit like an industrial bullshit machine.
Focus on the parts that actually matter, which are when he does stuff, not when he says stuff.
I think systematically exposing the fact that he has no regards for facts and lie all the fucking time is a good strategy. It might end up sinking in. Not for xDaunt like hardcore right wingers who will support him whatever he does, but I think he shouldn't get away with that; it will end up really hurting him.
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Germany11787 Posts
On February 06 2017 23:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 23:36 Simberto wrote:
We should really stop it with the "Trump says stupid stuff" tweets.
Yes, he says a lot of stupid stuff. All the time. But apparently, that does not matter to the people who elected him. And the rest already know that he constantly says stupid stuff, so one more thing doesn't really matter. And it really deludes the "Trump DOES stupid stuff" posts that are actually relevant. Trump just produces so much shit to be annoyed by that one should focus on the most important parts of his idiocy, because your ability to feel annoyed will run out a lot before trumps ability to churn out amazing quantities of A-grade bullshit like an industrial bullshit machine.
Focus on the parts that actually matter, which are when he does stuff, not when he says stuff. I think systematically exposing the fact that he has no regards for facts and lie all the fucking time is a good strategy. It might end up sinking in. Not for xDaunt like hardcore right wingers who will support him whatever he does, but I think he shouldn't get away with that; it will end up really hurting him.
I think at this point it has been clear for a while to anyone who is willing to see it that Trump only casually interacts with facts. If you haven't realized by now that he is constantly spewing "alternative facts" aka bullshit and lies, i don't think any additional amount of bullshit will change that.
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On February 06 2017 23:51 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 23:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On February 06 2017 23:36 Simberto wrote:
We should really stop it with the "Trump says stupid stuff" tweets.
Yes, he says a lot of stupid stuff. All the time. But apparently, that does not matter to the people who elected him. And the rest already know that he constantly says stupid stuff, so one more thing doesn't really matter. And it really deludes the "Trump DOES stupid stuff" posts that are actually relevant. Trump just produces so much shit to be annoyed by that one should focus on the most important parts of his idiocy, because your ability to feel annoyed will run out a lot before trumps ability to churn out amazing quantities of A-grade bullshit like an industrial bullshit machine.
Focus on the parts that actually matter, which are when he does stuff, not when he says stuff. I think systematically exposing the fact that he has no regards for facts and lie all the fucking time is a good strategy. It might end up sinking in. Not for xDaunt like hardcore right wingers who will support him whatever he does, but I think he shouldn't get away with that; it will end up really hurting him. I think at this point it has been clear for a while to anyone who is willing to see it that Trump only casually interacts with facts. If you haven't realized by now that he is constantly spewing "alternative facts" aka bullshit and lies, i don't think any additional amount of bullshit will change that.
Some people are a bit slow.
Oh and wonderful to see the usual cycle: Russian propaganda quotes Trump quoting Russian propaganda. How people don't fucking jump when he says that "Putin is a horrible killer but he can be a friend because so are we"? Republican would have eviscerated someone for saying that a year ago, and to be fair, they would be right because at that point, it's like saying that the surgeon and Jack the Ripper are the same because they both cut open peoples with knives.
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On February 06 2017 23:36 Simberto wrote:
We should really stop it with the "Trump says stupid stuff" tweets.
Yes, he says a lot of stupid stuff. All the time. But apparently, that does not matter to the people who elected him. And the rest already know that he constantly says stupid stuff, so one more thing doesn't really matter. And it really deludes the "Trump DOES stupid stuff" posts that are actually relevant. Trump just produces so much shit to be annoyed by that one should focus on the most important parts of his idiocy, because your ability to feel annoyed will run out a lot before trumps ability to churn out amazing quantities of A-grade bullshit like an industrial bullshit machine.
Focus on the parts that actually matter, which are when he does stuff, not when he says stuff.
Agreed, but I think this one is a new level of madness. Actually saying and probably believing that ANYTHING negative about you is fake news shows you are no longer a rational actor. Which should be enough motivation for good willing politicians to remove him from power somehow no matter which side of politics you are on.
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John Yoo, a former Justice Department attorney known for writing legal memorandums on enhanced interrogation tactics known as the Torture Memos, says President Donald Trump has gone too far in his use of executive power.
In a New York Times op-ed on Monday, Yoo argues that Trump's use of executive power is worrisome.
"He should understand the Constitution's grant of executive power," Yoo wrote, referencing Alexander Hamilton, who co-wrote the Federalist Papers, a series of essays on the Constitution.
"He should share Hamilton's vision of an energetic president leading the executive branch in a unified direction, rather than viewing the government as the enemy. He should realize that the Constitution channels the president toward protecting the nation from foreign threats, while cooperating with Congress on matters at home."
Yoo said Trump, as commander in chief, does not have the constitutional authority to order the construction of a border wall, nor does he have the power to terminate trade deals negotiated by Congress, like the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).
Source
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So apparently "people are saying" (to the New York Times) that Trump's mad he wasn't fully briefed on the EO that put Bannon on the NSC. I do have to wonder if "not being fully briefed" actually means "he didn't realize people would make mean cartoons and call him a Bannon puppet."
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danglars -> your claim that Trump was a necessary seems inadequately founded. both in terms of it being a reset in any useful fashion, and of its being necessary. it seems more like the usual rhetoric rather than an accurate representation of reality; and at any rate, sending someone even further detached isn't going to be helpful either.
the notion that trump or trumpism has a better grasp of any of the issues you mention is definitely unfounded, and is false. I can understand being dissatisfied with the work of the politicians in addressing those issues, but trump will do an even worse job of it than they did.
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On February 07 2017 00:51 zlefin wrote:
danglars -> your claim that Trump was a necessary seems inadequately founded. both in terms of it being a reset in any useful fashion, and of its being necessary. it seems more like the usual rhetoric rather than an accurate representation of reality; and at any rate, sending someone even further detached isn't going to be helpful either.
the notion that trump or trumpism has a better grasp of any of the issues you mention is definitely unfounded, and is false. I can understand being dissatisfied with the work of the politicians in addressing those issues, but trump will do an even worse job of it than they did.
Could you provide an argument or opinion for your statement other then snide deflection? There really isn't anything in particular that advances the conversation or something to respond to in your post.
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On February 06 2017 23:36 Simberto wrote:
We should really stop it with the "Trump says stupid stuff" tweets.
Yes, he says a lot of stupid stuff. All the time. But apparently, that does not matter to the people who elected him. And the rest already know that he constantly says stupid stuff, so one more thing doesn't really matter. And it really deludes the "Trump DOES stupid stuff" posts that are actually relevant. Trump just produces so much shit to be annoyed by that one should focus on the most important parts of his idiocy, because your ability to feel annoyed will run out a lot before trumps ability to churn out amazing quantities of A-grade bullshit like an industrial bullshit machine.
Focus on the parts that actually matter, which are when he does stuff, not when he says stuff.
I refuse to let him normalize this. I think it's both bad strategy and a dereliction of democratic duty to stop pointing out the irresponsible behavior of the president just because he doesn't seem likely to stop. If we say "oh well, I guess this is what the office of president does now" we've given up on changing it. If we continue to acknowledge and point out how unacceptable his behavior is we won't lose sight of the goal to restore the dignity of the office. I also think there's a fair number of people who supported him grudgingly, but never liked this aspect of him. Hammering that reminds those people why he's unfit to lead.
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EPT
