EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 6482
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Don't really care though, as long as the content is good. Saying "wow, you released my shitty dealings at an inopportune time" isn't much of an argument. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On December 30 2016 13:26 Nyxisto wrote: Wikileaks technically can't lie, they just dump information. But they can chose the narrative by selecting what to dump when, which is what they continuously did. For an apparently global whistle-blower organisation they seem to be a little short on non-US whistle-blowing. Neither of those two points are very relevant to the two claims being made regarding the source of the leaked information. I think it's entirely within the realm of possibility that they lied about the source of their information, although I don't think they did. The claims regrading the source of their information has nothing to do with the concept of "they can't lie because they dump info" that you noted. And Wikileaks is obviously going to be most critical of the US, considering their position in the world, what does that have to do with anything? Or are you attempting to suggest that they are funded by the Russians or some anti-US group to only leak info about the US or something? I really hope not because that seems rather conspiratorial to me. And before you bring it up, Assange's personal dislike for Clinton doesn't change anything regarding the claims either. Try again. Edit: ah, I see someone brought it up. It still changes nothing about the claims regarding the source of the information. Why would Assange and Murray want to protect Russia? Please note that I am only arguing about the claims that are being made regarding the source of the DNC information. One claim being that the Russians hacked and leaked the information (claimed by the CIA leak), the other that it was leaked by a disgruntled DNC employee (claimed by the former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan, Craig Murray). It's possible that the Podesta hack was executed and leaked by the Russians. I don't know much about that. I don't remember about the Hillary server stuff either, was that hacked and leaked also before whole FBI investigation thing? | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On December 30 2016 13:26 Nyxisto wrote: Wikileaks technically can't lie, they just dump information. But they can chose the narrative by selecting what to dump when, which is what they continuously did. For an apparently global whistle-blower organisation they seem to be a little short on non-US whistle-blowing. Whistle blowing the Americans has the largest impact globally and the largest amount of stuff to choose from to release because of how active the USA is globally. I don't disagree that reading something from Russia or China or hell even Canada would be a neat change of pace from them though. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
Edit: ah, I see someone brought it up. It still changes nothing about the claims regarding the source of the information. Why would Assange and Murray want to protect Russia? because the guy genuinely doesn't like the US. You're not really arguing that he would be the first Westerner who has an uncritical attitude towards anti-Western regimes? | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On December 30 2016 13:48 Nyxisto wrote: Assange ran a television show on RT, he has literally been paid and been paraded around by the Russian state's biggest TV propaganda channel. He's a useful idiot, that's not conspiracy territory. because the guy genuinely doesn't like the US. You're not really arguing that he would be the first Westerner who has an uncritical attitude towards anti-Western regimes? Yeah, but if you go down that line... I mean, do I really have to mention all the individual (ex-)US government people who are constantly bashing Russia on American TV? Or the Washington Post who seems to be doing that out of its own accord? People working at the CIA who are leaking shit, possibly with the motivation to help put Russia in a bad light? Hell, maybe there's some monetary ties between the CIA and the Washington Post to make it seem credible that they're in cahoots. This kind of stuff is endless on both sides. You might consider me a useful idiot for Russian propaganda, and I might consider you a useful idiot on the American side. Congratulations, we're two idiots arguing on the internet. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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oBlade
United States5770 Posts
On December 30 2016 13:26 Nyxisto wrote: Wikileaks technically can't lie, they just dump information. But they can chose the narrative by selecting what to dump when, which is what they continuously did. For an apparently global whistle-blower organisation they seem to be a little short on non-US whistle-blowing. They have a significant history of material from all over the world. They might have a lot more from the US, but they can only publish what comes in. This happens to have been covered in his recent interview: In Russia, there are many vibrant publications, online blogs, and Kremlin critics such as [Alexey] Navalny are part of that spectrum. There are also newspapers like Novaya Gazeta, in which different parts of society in Moscow are permitted to critique each other and it is tolerated, generally, because it isn’t a big TV channel that might have a mass popular effect, its audience is educated people in Moscow. So my interpretation is that in Russia there are competitors to WikiLeaks, and no WikiLeaks staff speak Russian, so for a strong culture which has its own language, you have to be seen as a local player. WikiLeaks is a predominantly English-speaking organization with a website predominantly in English. We have published more than 800,000 documents about or referencing Russia and President Putin, so we do have quite a bit of coverage, but the majority of our publications come from Western sources, though not always. For example, we have published more than 2 million documents from Syria, including Bashar al-Assad personally. Sometimes we make a publication about a country and they will see WikiLeaks as a player within that country, like with Timor East and Kenya. The real determinant is how distant that culture is from English. Chinese culture is quite far away. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
You guys also don't need to bring up wapo or CIA . Daniel Domscheit Berg who was the second most important wikileaks person for a long time and a close friend of Assange had a huge fallout with Assange years ago and over the course of the last year has repeatedly stated how far wikileaks has gone off the deep end. You don't need to rely on evil Western intelligence. Google translate will do I hope: https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article158635266/Domscheit-Berg-hat-Mitleid-mit-Julian-Assange.html | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On December 30 2016 14:37 Nyxisto wrote: I don't really know what significant means in that context but they've got basically nothing on any country that isn't the US if you actually follow a few links especially on that website. You guys also don't need to bring up wapo or CIA . Daniel Domscheit Berg who was the second most important wikileaks person for a long time and a close friend of Assange had a huge fallout with Assange years ago and over the course of the last year has repeatedly stated how far wikileaks has gone off the deep end. You don't need to rely on evil Western intelligence. I, too, always go to the equivalent of someone's ex to get a good idea on the reliability of someone before I hire them. On a more serious note, I remember reading something about their issues regarding cables being released censored or uncensored, but once again, I find it hard to see any links between that particular disagreement and two claims being made in this CIA leak vs Wikileaks actual information issue. That document that was published and linked earlier also doesn't say anything useful in regards to who leaked the DNC information. That edges me towards dismissing the claims of the CIA leak that said the Russians leaked DNC information with the intent of influencing the election. And just to reiterate: I have no doubt that the Russians hacked, just as I'm sure that the NSA hacked European and Russian government institutions. I'm just still not sure about where the leak to Wikileaks came from. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
On December 30 2016 13:46 Orcasgt24 wrote: Whistle blowing the Americans has the largest impact globally and the largest amount of stuff to choose from to release because of how active the USA is globally. I don't disagree that reading something from Russia or China or hell even Canada would be a neat change of pace from them though. Russia/China already have a reputation for having a lot of straight forward corruption. Show off some of that and people would be like "yea and?" Everyone expects that from those governments. For the US you can make a lot more impact due to the propaganda/idealism it tries to project and its high activity in being influential around the world as well as the most powerful nation militarily. Assange's agenda seems to be to make himself as relevant as possible so of course they prioritize high impact shit. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
"GIVING UP ON OBAMA? Putin vows not to stoop to president's level over sanctions, looks ahead to Trump" It's a headline that's sympathetic to Putin. How unpatriotic and cowardly that any Republicans propose we back down from Russia in response to election hacking. "All Americans should be alarmed by Russia's actions," Obama said, adding, "Such activities have consequences." But President-elect Donald Trump said it was "time for our country to move on to bigger and better things." Fox News Fast forward to 5:40 | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
An internal Miami police investigation has found three rookie officers joked in a group chat about using the city’s primarily black neighborhoods for target practice. According to investigation documents obtained by the Miami Herald, the officers told an investigator they were only joking. The newspaper said officers Kevin Bergnes, Miguel Valdes and Bruce Alcin were fired two days before Christmas. It said Alcin is African American and Valdes has a black grandfather. The remarks upset colleagues and came as the department is under supervision of the US Department of Justice following a series of police shootings. “It was senseless, young and reckless,” Justin Pinn, an African American member of a civilian board tasked with monitoring Miami’s federal policing agreement, told the paper. “It shouldn’t be tolerated. Officers are supposed to be guardians not warriors. I don’t think what they expressed reflects the values of the department.” Attorney Stephen Lopez, who represents the three officers, said the remarks were taken out of context and that there was no misconduct. “Two of the officers have black blood pumping through their veins,” he told the newspaper. “To say that they’re racist is outrageous and ludicrous.” Police union president Lieutenant Javier Ortiz maintained that the officers should have been reprimanded not fired, since their “messages were in poor taste, but weren’t in any way racial”. The incident happened on 30 June, as the three officers were responding to other rookie officers’ questions about shooting ranges in a WhatsApp chat they often communicated in, the paper said. According to documents obtained by the Herald, the officers-in-training shared department information on that thread. Source | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Are we to the point where three rookie officers making inappropriate jokes in a group chat is news? Yeah probably reprimand and retrain instead of fire, but police departments are in the firing line these days and take action against any bad PR. Hey let's go to the shooting range! [inappropriate joke]. Sweet, you made the Miami herald! | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On December 31 2016 01:59 Danglars wrote: Are we to the point where three rookie officers making inappropriate jokes in a group chat is news? Yeah probably reprimand and retrain instead of fire, but police departments are in the firing line these days and take action against any bad PR. Hey let's go to the shooting range! [inappropriate joke]. Sweet, you made the Miami herald! I agree that firing sounds excessive. some reprimands and retraining are fine. even if the officer's intent were racial, I don't think it would rise to a fireable offense. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova denied authorities closed an American school in Moscow in retaliation for U.S. sanctions, and accused Western media of spreading fake news. “Apparently, the White House has totally lost it and is starting to invent sanctions against their own children,” Zakharova said in a post on Facebook. “It is a lie.” CNN reported on Thursday that Russian authorities would close the Anglo-American School of Moscow. The move was said to be a response to sanctions against Russian individuals and entities unveiled by President Barack Obama on Thursday in retaliation for alleged election-season hacks. She said media should not report the story by saying Moscow had denied it, but should “write it like it is.” “The TV channel CNN and other U.S. [and Western] media have again, quoting American official sources, spread false information.” Zakharova finished her statement with a veiled attack on Obama. “Normally, people ask Santa Claus to bring them something. This year I am asking him to take someone away,” Zakharova said. Source Putin also made a statement (Source) about sanctions response. My translation: «Это явно противоречит коренным интересам как российского, так и американского народов. С учетом особой ответственности России и США за сохранение глобальной безопасности — наносит ущерб и всему комплексу международных отношений», — отметил Путин. [These sanctions] clearly run contrary to the core interests of both the Russian and the American citizenry. Understanding the importance of the role of both Russia and the US in preserving global peace - this is damaging to the structure of international relations. Later also called it "kitchen diplomacy" and noted that Russia will not be expelling American diplomats. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On December 31 2016 02:24 LegalLord wrote: CNN a fan of fake news: Source Putin also made a statement (Source) about sanctions response. My translation: Later also called it "kitchen diplomacy" and noted that Russia will not be expelling American diplomats. I consider this to be an appropriately low foreign policy note for Obama to go out on. It encapsulates the efficacy of the past eight years of his foreign policy perfectly. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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