|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On November 22 2013 04:44 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:40 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:30 packrat386 wrote:On November 22 2013 04:23 xDaunt wrote:
You guys do realize that Obamacare isn't what Europeans have, right? It is a steaming turd of a replacement for universal healthcare. Why the European and liberal posters are not criticizing Obamacare for what it is shows just how stupidly partisan and hypocritical they are. Its arguably a step in the right direction and it seems like it should work in theory. I don't think liberals have been exactly light on obama when it comes to not implementing a single payer system, but they're not about to go apeshit because they didn't get the 100% most liberal option. The tea party has kind of gone that route and it has hurt the strength of their party so I don't know why hardline liberals would want to try the same thing. The only way in which it's a step in the right direction is this: it may actually fuck up the current system so badly that a single payer system will have to be implemented. People on the right have been saying this for years, and I wasn't really ready to believe them. Now I think that they have a point. Nonono, you must try and keep from this wild ledge stepping at the sight of a cliff; my suggesting that Republicans are hypocrites for demanding public outrage on Obamacare when they played an influential role in its legislative stagnation is not placing the blame at their feet nor does it vindicate Obama and the laws writers. Everyone made this pissed in bed, but we have yet to see if the plastic cover did its job yet. That we don't want to burn the mattress does not mean that we aren't looking for wet spots.
Okay, so we're going to talk about the other point: Obamacare is really a republican idea from 20 years ago. As I have pointed out repeatedly, that's a pretty fucking lame excuse when no current republican supported Obamacare. Would some republicans who were in office 20 years ago have supported Obamacare? Maybe, but that's clearly not the issue.
|
On November 22 2013 04:50 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:44 packrat386 wrote:On November 22 2013 04:41 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:41 packrat386 wrote:On November 22 2013 04:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:28 farvacola wrote:
The problem is that conservatives consider anything that isn't a total scrapping of the law "not criticizing Obamacare" when in reality, this is obviously not the case. It is the same game of Who's on Second that takes place when libs ask neocons why they shut down the government rather than actually improve upon the language of the bill in Congress. Oh, so now we're going to blame republicans against for the fact that Obamacare is a shitty bill. It's not like we haven't been over this a thousand times already, but here we go again: The democrats passed Obamacare without a single republican vote. Who's the joke on? And this is the crux of the political problem for Obama and the democrats. They can't blame republicans for this mess. You can find dozens of interviews of democrat strategists where they admit just this. It's all on them because they arrogantly froze republicans out of the negotiations and insisted upon forcing through a bill without any republican support. Sorry, did farva's post mention republicans anywhere? All he's saying is that you can criticize the law without throwing it out, which is what liberals have done. He mentioned conservatives, which is close enough. Allow me to state your posts here xDaunt: Why haven't liberals criticized obamacare farva: they have, they just don't want to scrap it. xDaunt: you can't blame republicans for this how in the hell is this responsive? What the fuck are you talking about? Did you totally miss this sentence? Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:28 farvacola wrote:
The problem is that conservatives consider anything that isn't a total scrapping of the law "not criticizing Obamacare" when in reality, this is obviously not the case. How can this be construed to mean anything other than "Republicans should be blamed for not being nice and helping Democrats clean up the bed that the Democrats took a massive shit in?"
Seems fairly obvious that it suggests that plenty of Democrats are criticizing the law or are looking for ways to change it, only the Right refuses to hear anything but "Obamacare is perfect and Repubs are scum." You are reading partisanry into what I'm saying.
Edit: and to the above, I'm not referencing old Republicans at all, I'm referring to the total lack of a legislative revision process put into place when the Repubs shut down the government rather than meet to work on changing the bill for the better.
|
On November 22 2013 04:50 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:44 packrat386 wrote:On November 22 2013 04:41 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:41 packrat386 wrote:On November 22 2013 04:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:28 farvacola wrote:
The problem is that conservatives consider anything that isn't a total scrapping of the law "not criticizing Obamacare" when in reality, this is obviously not the case. It is the same game of Who's on Second that takes place when libs ask neocons why they shut down the government rather than actually improve upon the language of the bill in Congress. Oh, so now we're going to blame republicans against for the fact that Obamacare is a shitty bill. It's not like we haven't been over this a thousand times already, but here we go again: The democrats passed Obamacare without a single republican vote. Who's the joke on? And this is the crux of the political problem for Obama and the democrats. They can't blame republicans for this mess. You can find dozens of interviews of democrat strategists where they admit just this. It's all on them because they arrogantly froze republicans out of the negotiations and insisted upon forcing through a bill without any republican support. Sorry, did farva's post mention republicans anywhere? All he's saying is that you can criticize the law without throwing it out, which is what liberals have done. He mentioned conservatives, which is close enough. Allow me to state your posts here xDaunt: Why haven't liberals criticized obamacare farva: they have, they just don't want to scrap it. xDaunt: you can't blame republicans for this how in the hell is this responsive? What the fuck are you talking about? Did you totally miss this sentence? Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:28 farvacola wrote:
The problem is that conservatives consider anything that isn't a total scrapping of the law "not criticizing Obamacare" when in reality, this is obviously not the case. How can this be construed to mean anything other than "Republicans should be blamed for not being nice and helping Democrats clean up the bed that the Democrats took a massive shit in?"
I agree with farvas post about. Also, its important to realize that conservative =/= republican, especially in the context of the congress that passed the ACA. Obama had to appease conservative members of the Democratic party (notably the Blue Dogs) in order to get his legislation passed.
|
On November 22 2013 04:53 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:50 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:44 packrat386 wrote:On November 22 2013 04:41 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:41 packrat386 wrote:On November 22 2013 04:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:28 farvacola wrote:
The problem is that conservatives consider anything that isn't a total scrapping of the law "not criticizing Obamacare" when in reality, this is obviously not the case. It is the same game of Who's on Second that takes place when libs ask neocons why they shut down the government rather than actually improve upon the language of the bill in Congress. Oh, so now we're going to blame republicans against for the fact that Obamacare is a shitty bill. It's not like we haven't been over this a thousand times already, but here we go again: The democrats passed Obamacare without a single republican vote. Who's the joke on? And this is the crux of the political problem for Obama and the democrats. They can't blame republicans for this mess. You can find dozens of interviews of democrat strategists where they admit just this. It's all on them because they arrogantly froze republicans out of the negotiations and insisted upon forcing through a bill without any republican support. Sorry, did farva's post mention republicans anywhere? All he's saying is that you can criticize the law without throwing it out, which is what liberals have done. He mentioned conservatives, which is close enough. Allow me to state your posts here xDaunt: Why haven't liberals criticized obamacare farva: they have, they just don't want to scrap it. xDaunt: you can't blame republicans for this how in the hell is this responsive? What the fuck are you talking about? Did you totally miss this sentence? On November 22 2013 04:28 farvacola wrote:
The problem is that conservatives consider anything that isn't a total scrapping of the law "not criticizing Obamacare" when in reality, this is obviously not the case. How can this be construed to mean anything other than "Republicans should be blamed for not being nice and helping Democrats clean up the bed that the Democrats took a massive shit in?" Seems fairly obvious that it suggests that plenty of Democrats are criticizing the law or are looking for ways to change it, only the Right refuses to hear anything but "Obamacare is perfect and Repubs are scum." You are reading partisanry into what I'm saying.
Fair enough.
Edit: and to the above, I'm not referencing old Republicans at all, I'm referring to the total lack of a legislative revision process put into place when the Repubs shut down the government rather than meet to work on changing the bill for the better.
So what are you blaming republicans for precisely? Is it their fault that they did not work with democrats on the original Obamacare bill, or is it their fault that they are not agreeing to fix Obamacare? If it's the former, then the obvious retort is that democrats were the idiots who passed a bad bill. It's on them. If it's the latter, why exactly should the republicans be altruistic to the democrats and fix the democrats' problem?
|
Mostly because it isn't just the Democrat's problem; it is everyone's, and it has been far before Obamacare was passed. Scrapping the law outright when it contains many incredibly beneficial aspects that require no dressing, be they the fine on readmissions, the ban on denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, or the introduction of choice into many very narrow insurance markets; Democrats want to see those continue while we fix this hodgepodge state exchange/federal system mess, whereas Repubs just want to see it all burn. That's where the conversation ought to revolve instead of about playing blame games.
|
On November 22 2013 04:56 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:53 farvacola wrote:On November 22 2013 04:50 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:44 packrat386 wrote:On November 22 2013 04:41 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:41 packrat386 wrote:On November 22 2013 04:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:28 farvacola wrote:
The problem is that conservatives consider anything that isn't a total scrapping of the law "not criticizing Obamacare" when in reality, this is obviously not the case. It is the same game of Who's on Second that takes place when libs ask neocons why they shut down the government rather than actually improve upon the language of the bill in Congress. Oh, so now we're going to blame republicans against for the fact that Obamacare is a shitty bill. It's not like we haven't been over this a thousand times already, but here we go again: The democrats passed Obamacare without a single republican vote. Who's the joke on? And this is the crux of the political problem for Obama and the democrats. They can't blame republicans for this mess. You can find dozens of interviews of democrat strategists where they admit just this. It's all on them because they arrogantly froze republicans out of the negotiations and insisted upon forcing through a bill without any republican support. Sorry, did farva's post mention republicans anywhere? All he's saying is that you can criticize the law without throwing it out, which is what liberals have done. He mentioned conservatives, which is close enough. Allow me to state your posts here xDaunt: Why haven't liberals criticized obamacare farva: they have, they just don't want to scrap it. xDaunt: you can't blame republicans for this how in the hell is this responsive? What the fuck are you talking about? Did you totally miss this sentence? On November 22 2013 04:28 farvacola wrote:
The problem is that conservatives consider anything that isn't a total scrapping of the law "not criticizing Obamacare" when in reality, this is obviously not the case. How can this be construed to mean anything other than "Republicans should be blamed for not being nice and helping Democrats clean up the bed that the Democrats took a massive shit in?" Seems fairly obvious that it suggests that plenty of Democrats are criticizing the law or are looking for ways to change it, only the Right refuses to hear anything but "Obamacare is perfect and Repubs are scum." You are reading partisanry into what I'm saying. Fair enough. Show nested quote +Edit: and to the above, I'm not referencing old Republicans at all, I'm referring to the total lack of a legislative revision process put into place when the Repubs shut down the government rather than meet to work on changing the bill for the better. So what are you blaming republicans for precisely? Is it their fault that they did not work with democrats on the original Obamacare bill, or is it their fault that they are not agreeing to fix Obamacare? If it's the former, then the obvious retort is that democrats were the idiots who passed a bad bill. It's on them. If it's the latter, why exactly should the republicans be altruistic to the democrats and fix the democrats' problem?
This right here is why I freaking hate politics.
When a team messes up and loses a game, the coach doesn't just make the goalie who missed the save work harder - he makes everyone train to fix the problems and get better.
It's not ok to be like "oh, it's not our problem, you guys fix it". This goes for both sides of the fence. But I would honestly rather see a mistake made and a "bad bill" passed than literally shutting down the fucking government and doing nothing.
|
On November 22 2013 04:56 xDaunt wrote:
So what are you blaming republicans for precisely? Is it their fault that they did not work with democrats on the original Obamacare bill, or is it their fault that they are not agreeing to fix Obamacare? If it's the former, then the obvious retort is that democrats were the idiots who passed a bad bill. It's on them. If it's the latter, why exactly should the republicans be altruistic to the democrats and fix the democrats' problem?
When it became obvious that they could not repeal the ACA. Which was a good while ago, they should have shifted focus on fixing it.
If it is as bad as they say it is they can come with proof of why this is bad and ways to fix it.
Its a politicians job to serve the people and you don't serve the people by running into a wall for no reason instead of trying to fix whatever it is that is bad for them.
|
Frankly, I don't think that Obamacare can be fixed. When you start creating allowances here and there, such as allowing people to keep their current plans, you start screwing up the economic underpinnings of the entire scheme. Go read paralleluniverse's posts from a few pages ago. He lays it out fairly well. This is why it's not purely a partisan argument for republicans to take the position that the whole scheme must be repealed.
|
On November 22 2013 04:56 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:53 farvacola wrote:On November 22 2013 04:50 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:44 packrat386 wrote:On November 22 2013 04:41 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:41 packrat386 wrote:On November 22 2013 04:35 xDaunt wrote:On November 22 2013 04:28 farvacola wrote:
The problem is that conservatives consider anything that isn't a total scrapping of the law "not criticizing Obamacare" when in reality, this is obviously not the case. It is the same game of Who's on Second that takes place when libs ask neocons why they shut down the government rather than actually improve upon the language of the bill in Congress. Oh, so now we're going to blame republicans against for the fact that Obamacare is a shitty bill. It's not like we haven't been over this a thousand times already, but here we go again: The democrats passed Obamacare without a single republican vote. Who's the joke on? And this is the crux of the political problem for Obama and the democrats. They can't blame republicans for this mess. You can find dozens of interviews of democrat strategists where they admit just this. It's all on them because they arrogantly froze republicans out of the negotiations and insisted upon forcing through a bill without any republican support. Sorry, did farva's post mention republicans anywhere? All he's saying is that you can criticize the law without throwing it out, which is what liberals have done. He mentioned conservatives, which is close enough. Allow me to state your posts here xDaunt: Why haven't liberals criticized obamacare farva: they have, they just don't want to scrap it. xDaunt: you can't blame republicans for this how in the hell is this responsive? What the fuck are you talking about? Did you totally miss this sentence? On November 22 2013 04:28 farvacola wrote:
The problem is that conservatives consider anything that isn't a total scrapping of the law "not criticizing Obamacare" when in reality, this is obviously not the case. How can this be construed to mean anything other than "Republicans should be blamed for not being nice and helping Democrats clean up the bed that the Democrats took a massive shit in?" Seems fairly obvious that it suggests that plenty of Democrats are criticizing the law or are looking for ways to change it, only the Right refuses to hear anything but "Obamacare is perfect and Repubs are scum." You are reading partisanry into what I'm saying. Fair enough. Show nested quote +Edit: and to the above, I'm not referencing old Republicans at all, I'm referring to the total lack of a legislative revision process put into place when the Repubs shut down the government rather than meet to work on changing the bill for the better. So what are you blaming republicans for precisely? Is it their fault that they did not work with democrats on the original Obamacare bill, or is it their fault that they are not agreeing to fix Obamacare? If it's the former, then the obvious retort is that democrats were the idiots who passed a bad bill. It's on them. If it's the latter, why exactly should the republicans be altruistic to the democrats and fix the democrats' problem?
"If the president is from other party x everything is his fault, including my refusal to do anything constructive to facilitate cooperation."
"If a bill is not bipartisan, it is 100 % the fault of the authors that nobody wants to help improve it!"
"It is not my fault that my opponents passes bad legislation. I don't have an alternative, but that is their fault too!"
The partisan purity is making politics into a mudthrowing match instead of a discussion, when a discussion could pull the result closer to a common goal...
|
Its not even about partisanship. Its about reality. They could not ever repeal the ACA. So if it will destroy America as they keep saying over and over again then they need to change it.
|
On November 22 2013 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:
Its not even about partisanship. Its about reality. They could not ever repeal the ACA. So if it will destroy America as they keep saying over and over again then they need to change it.
They are hoping for a grassroots effort the repeal it just like how the tea party came into existence.... oh wait  .
|
They could though it would have just conveniently required them to have total political victory for it.
I dont get why people have a problem with the opposition for some reason opposing what the reigning party wants to do. If they just fix somehow impossibly obamacare its just going to continue to be obamacare they wont get any credit for it and ot just goes back to the initial reasons why they opposed it
Its not like anything has really changed from the reps side just whats been coming from the dems side. I know its too much to ask obama to be consistent but that shouldn't spread to v the left as a whole.
didn't clinton reform health care in his presidency.
|
On November 22 2013 05:25 Sermokala wrote:
They could though it would have just conveniently required them to have total political victory for it.
I dont get why people have a problem with the opposition for some reason opposing what the reigning party wants to do. If they just fix somehow impossibly obamacare its just going to continue to be obamacare they wont get any credit for it and ot just goes back to the initial reasons why they opposed it
Its not like anything has really changed from the reps side just whats been coming from the dems side. I know its too much to ask obama to be consistent but that shouldn't spread to v the left as a whole.
didn't clinton reform health care in his presidency.
The problem is narrative. the ACA wasnt just bad. It would destroy America!!!!!
Ofc they can oppose it. But there is a difference between opposing it and failing to repeal it over 40 times.
If it is as bad as they say it is they have to try and fix it if they cant repeal it.
If it just doesn't match up with there values then why did they make such a monumental fuss about it and instead not just ignore it after they saw they couldn't repeal it.
It was so bad they were willing to shutdown the government over it and threaten a debt ceiling failure which would have major global economic impact. Yet it wasn't worth it to try and not let it destroy American when they couldn't repeal it.
|
On November 22 2013 05:25 Sermokala wrote:
They could though it would have just conveniently required them to have total political victory for it.
I dont get why people have a problem with the opposition for some reason opposing what the reigning party wants to do. If they just fix somehow impossibly obamacare its just going to continue to be obamacare they wont get any credit for it and ot just goes back to the initial reasons why they opposed it
Its not like anything has really changed from the reps side just whats been coming from the dems side. I know its too much to ask obama to be consistent but that shouldn't spread to v the left as a whole.
didn't clinton reform health care in his presidency.
In theory, the American people are supposed to be their constituents, not pawns to be sacrificed (sometimes to their literal deaths, in this case) for political gain, and this is supposed to take precedence over scoring political points.
|
On November 22 2013 05:05 farvacola wrote:
Mostly because it isn't just the Democrat's problem; it is everyone's, and it has been far before Obamacare was passed. Scrapping the law outright when it contains many incredibly beneficial aspects that require no dressing, be they the fine on readmissions, the ban on denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, or the introduction of choice into many very narrow insurance markets; Democrats want to see those continue while we fix this hodgepodge state exchange/federal system mess, whereas Repubs just want to see it all burn. That's where the conversation ought to revolve instead of about playing blame games.
The majority of Americans are very happy with the current healthcare system. The ACA was designed to tip toe around the current system while bringing more people into it. If enough people figure that they'll be negatively affected, the political backing for the law may evaporate.
|
On November 22 2013 07:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 05:05 farvacola wrote:
Mostly because it isn't just the Democrat's problem; it is everyone's, and it has been far before Obamacare was passed. Scrapping the law outright when it contains many incredibly beneficial aspects that require no dressing, be they the fine on readmissions, the ban on denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, or the introduction of choice into many very narrow insurance markets; Democrats want to see those continue while we fix this hodgepodge state exchange/federal system mess, whereas Repubs just want to see it all burn. That's where the conversation ought to revolve instead of about playing blame games. The majority of Americans are very happy with the current healthcare system. The ACA was designed to tip toe around the current system while bringing more people into it. If enough people figure that they'll be negatively affected, the political backing for the law may evaporate.
Yes I remember like it was yesterday people complementing the system that prevented them from getting insurance due to preexisting conditions. Such as acne, or diabetes.
|
i'd be interested to know how 'the majority of Americans' can be very happy with current health care when the majority of Americans certainly do not understand it or its problems. there is a difference between being ignorantly happy and satisfied with a $40/month insurance plan that in fact is a steaming pile of shit vs. being genuinely happy with a patchwork, inefficient, dysfunctional system for whatever reason
|
On November 22 2013 07:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 05:05 farvacola wrote:
Mostly because it isn't just the Democrat's problem; it is everyone's, and it has been far before Obamacare was passed. Scrapping the law outright when it contains many incredibly beneficial aspects that require no dressing, be they the fine on readmissions, the ban on denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, or the introduction of choice into many very narrow insurance markets; Democrats want to see those continue while we fix this hodgepodge state exchange/federal system mess, whereas Repubs just want to see it all burn. That's where the conversation ought to revolve instead of about playing blame games. The majority of Americans are very happy with the current healthcare system. The ACA was designed to tip toe around the current system while bringing more people into it. If enough people figure that they'll be negatively affected, the political backing for the law may evaporate.
Establishing that the majority of Americans are "very happy" with the previous iteration of the US healthcare system is an incredibly problematic undertaking, both in terms of going about it soundly and in terms of demonstrating the impact of such a statement. Let's suppose that an aggregate of "good" polls on the topic of Pre-Obamacare satisfaction, both historically and contemporaneously, sufficiently point to approval enough to legitimize the notion that a majority of Americans were very happy with the previous system. What does this really tell us? The majority of Americans have been very wrong about a fair number of things in the past, and given the incredibly nebulous nature of healthcare pricing and market facade, it would seem an awful leap of faith to make in supposing that the majority of Americans can even name a single alternative to their current health insurance plan, not to mention whether or not they know enough of the entire system to say whether or not it is "good", which is in itself a shorthand term more useful in attempting to legitimize polling than in accurately reflecting the state of healthcare in the United States. The below is from a case study on healthcare as a market good published in the Archives of Internal Medicine that I've posted on occasion.
Our first result of the median charge for treating “uncomplicated” appendicitis of $33 611 would certainly startle many patients. Given estimates that 60% of bankruptcies in the United States involve catastrophic medical expenses,7 these data should alarm those making decisions about our society’s ability to obtain medical care without financial catastrophe.
A patient with severe abdominal pain is in a poor position to determine whether his or her physician is ordering the appropriate blood work, imaging, or surgical procedure. Price shopping is improbable, if not impossible, because the services are complex, urgently needed,8 and no definitive diagnosis has yet been made. In our study, even if patients did have the luxury of time and clinical knowledge to “shop around,” we found that California hospitals charge patients inconsistently for what should be similar services as defined by our relatively strict definition of uncomplicated appendicitis.
In order to consider health care a good that abides by traditional market theory, both consumers and producers should have a reasonable sense of how much the good costs. Yet health care providers are often unaware of what their recommendations cost.9 Consumers (ie, patients) with adequate insurance are shielded from charges, while the underinsured or uninsured see staggeringly high numbers without understanding what the charges mean, let alone if they are appropriate. Our findings suggest that there are inherent limitations of market theory within the health care system, and much work remains to be done to allow consumers to fulfill the role of a true consumer in the health care marketplace.
Health Care as a “Market Good”? Appendicitis as a Case Study
That last paragraph is very important, as it speaks to just how opaque the health insurance market truly is. Granted, some of the distortion that takes place is due to Medicare and its ubiquity, but the point is that, in general economic terms aimed towards establishing whether or not a given commodity or service is free market apropos, the consumer is simply unable to gather enough information, act in enough time, or make salient enough choices when searching for both preventative and palliative healthcare to make good "rational" choices enough of the time. (I won't even go into the US systems problem with preventative medicine :D) Accordingly, the opinion of the majority of Americans (which is, I'll remind you, incredibly difficult to establish in the first place) when it comes to healthcare becomes quite a bit more complicated in terms of how we are to act on it from a public policy standpoint, as it is rather clear, given what we know of how insurance markets work and how people come upon their plans, that many people have very little idea what is going on when they say that they are happy with their employee insurance plan that is, in the background, pushing the costs of those less fortunate exponentially higher.
Edit: You are right in describing Obamacare as a bad tip-toe though, that much we agree on 
|
United States44352 Posts
On November 22 2013 04:23 xDaunt wrote:
You guys do realize that Obamacare isn't what Europeans have, right? It is a steaming turd of a replacement for universal healthcare. Why the European and liberal posters are not criticizing Obamacare for what it is shows just how stupidly partisan and hypocritical they are.
I have been criticising it?
+ Show Spoiler +On November 04 2013 08:19 KwarK wrote:Obamacare is a shitty idea. A comprehensive nationalised system along with death panels and a tax to fund it is the right idea. You can have a private insurance running parallel with it if you like, most countries do, those who can afford it still get to pay extra to have extra if they want but it provides a simple minimum standard of healthcare for everyone. Suggesting that healthcare decisions are somewhat comparable to buying a car is really, really dumb. Buying a car is pretty fucking simple, you have a few basic parameters (where you wanna go, how cool you wanna look, how much money you wanna spend etc) and you measure it against those. Assessing health insurance is mind boggling complicated. You can know your life intimately but you don't know what your statistically biggest health risks are, nor what the biggest financial risks (risk of incident multiplied by cost of it is), you don't know if your co-pay is a lot compared to your likely costs or not much, you don't know if you're overpaying or underpaying, you don't know if there is a bunch of other shit that could happen that isn't covered because it'd be too expensive and a billion other variables. Healthcare is really fucking complicated, which phone you want isn't.
|
Canada11607 Posts
On November 22 2013 04:56 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +Edit: and to the above, I'm not referencing old Republicans at all, I'm referring to the total lack of a legislative revision process put into place when the Repubs shut down the government rather than meet to work on changing the bill for the better. So what are you blaming republicans for precisely? Is it their fault that they did not work with democrats on the original Obamacare bill, or is it their fault that they are not agreeing to fix Obamacare? If it's the former, then the obvious retort is that democrats were the idiots who passed a bad bill. It's on them. If it's the latter, why exactly should the republicans be altruistic to the democrats and fix the democrats' problem?
Probably little incentive. Which is why more than ever, I like the idea of majority rule in a Parliamentary democracy with the occasional minority government when party support is too even. There doesn't seem much incentive these days to be altruistic and help out the other side. Often you'll find, certain positions are critiqued in Opposition because in Opposition, they had zero reason to cooperate, but once in government turns out they actually agreed. The way it works now it seems to incentivize sabotaging the other side.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
