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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On November 16 2016 00:27 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 00:16 LemOn wrote:On November 15 2016 22:59 farvacola wrote: Depending on what happens with healthcare reform, I bet we see a lot of strikes over healthcare benefits this next year or so. Eh really? He already said he will keep the clauses people are most likely to protest about.. And to the most protestable thing - straight up deporting 2-3million illegals he's already said he'll "focus on those with criminal records" so the 3 million is not happening anytime soon. Nobody will go into strike because of protectionist trade policies, cutting taxes of favouring jobs over climate change protection. Funny part is that millions of illegals were deported during Obama's reign and no one said anything. Trump says he'll do the same thing with those with criminal records and suddenly it's national outrage. People need to be more informed. For the most part, though, he let the children of illegal immigrants stay. That will change.
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On November 16 2016 00:10 Sermokala wrote: Beacuse the exact thing the EU needs right now is to get into a trade war with the US.
Ditching regulations to be more competetive (what Trump seems to want) is starting a Tradewar, responding to it isn't.
How can he deport the children of illegal immigrants? Don't they become US citizens by being born in the US?
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On November 16 2016 00:28 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 00:27 Incognoto wrote:On November 16 2016 00:16 LemOn wrote:On November 15 2016 22:59 farvacola wrote: Depending on what happens with healthcare reform, I bet we see a lot of strikes over healthcare benefits this next year or so. Eh really? He already said he will keep the clauses people are most likely to protest about.. And to the most protestable thing - straight up deporting 2-3million illegals he's already said he'll "focus on those with criminal records" so the 3 million is not happening anytime soon. Nobody will go into strike because of protectionist trade policies, cutting taxes of favouring jobs over climate change protection. Funny part is that millions of illegals were deported during Obama's reign and no one said anything. Trump says he'll do the same thing with those with criminal records and suddenly it's national outrage. People need to be more informed. For the most part, though, he let the children of illegal immigrants stay. That will change.
i read the bush regime deported 2 million while the obama regime deported 2.5 million+ http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661
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yep.
President Obama directed U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to focus on criminals, not families, during his November 2014 executive action on immigration.
According to their website, "ICE has continued to increase its focus on identifying, arresting, and removing convicted criminals in prisons and jails, and also at-large arrests in the interior."
In fiscal year 2015, 91 percent of people removed from inside the U.S. were previously convicted of a crime.
The administration made the first priority "threats to national security, border security, and public safety." That includes gang members, convicted felons or charged with "aggravated felony" and anyone apprehended at the border trying to enter the country illegally.
In 2015, 81 percent, or 113,385, of the removals were the priority one removals.
Priority two includes "misdemeanants and new immigration violators."
That includes "aliens convicted of three or more misdemeanor offenses, other than minor traffic" violations, as well as those convicted of domestic violence, sexual abuse, burglary, DUIs or drug trafficking.
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If you're born in the USA then you are a US Citizen there should be no exception to that rule, doesn't matter what your parents were.
Heck I think if you're born on a flight with a US destination or departure, then you're a US citizen.
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If Trump tries to get rid of birthright citizenship, there are more than enough judges to prevent it.
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On November 16 2016 00:36 Incognoto wrote: If you're born in the USA then you are a US Citizen there should be no exception to that rule, doesn't matter what your parents were.
Heck I think if you're born on a flight with a US destination or departure, then you're a US citizen. on that second point iirc it varies. the law is complicated, and multiple nation's laws may apply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_aboard_aircraft_and_ships
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On November 16 2016 00:36 Incognoto wrote: If you're born in the USA then you are a US Citizen there should be no exception to that rule, doesn't matter what your parents were.
Heck I think if you're born on a flight with a US destination or departure, then you're a US citizen.
That is a pretty silly rule tbh,do any other countries have a rule like this? That you just have to be born in the country to get full citizenship.
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On November 16 2016 00:48 pmh wrote: On November 16 2016 00:36 Incognoto wrote: If you're born in the USA then you are a US Citizen there should be no exception to that rule, doesn't matter what your parents were.
Heck I think if you're born on a flight with a US destination or departure, then you're a US citizen.
That is a pretty silly rule tbh,do any other countries have a rule like this? That you just have to be born in the country to get full citizenship. most of the americas do. the legal principle is called Jus Soli. there's a map at the start of the wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
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Looking forward to the mixed messages this guy will send to forward leaders amid his perpetual trainwreck of statements.
Trump in 2012 called the U.S. electoral-vote system a “disaster for democracy.” And in an interview that aired Sunday on CBS News’ “60 Minutes,” Trump said his opinion hadn’t changed even though Hillary Clinton bested him in the popular vote.
“I would rather see it where you went with simple votes. You know, you get 100 million votes, and somebody else gets 90 million votes, and you win,” he told CBS’ Lesley Stahl.
But in a pair of tweets Tuesday morning, Trump declared that the Electoral College “is actually genius” because it empowers smaller states.
Yahoo
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Trade isn't a zero sum game. Both sides lose out immensely especially with huge trading partners such as the EU and the US. Try explaining all the people who lose their jobs and see prices of a lot of things rising without their wages compensating it that you lost less than the other party.
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On November 15 2016 13:32 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2016 12:27 xDaunt wrote:Due to being afflicted with sickness and an uncontrollable case of the shits, I haven't been to give this thread the attention that I wanted given the topic, But here's an article that better explains some of what I was trying to convey. Here are some excerpts: At a certain level, how Trump won is so simple that most pundits—the same people who gave the president-elect no chance of winning—can’t see it. The Republican nominee got enough white votes—especially among the working class, particularly in the upper Mid-West—to offset huge Democratic advantages among minorities and white professionals. This was the Sailer Strategy, named after the insightful blogger who coined the notion back in 2000. Steve Sailer’s essential idea, that the GOP needed to max out the white vote to keep winning national elections in the face of changing demographics, was rejected by most Republicans as smacking of racism.
It cannot be stated too many times that the GOP establishment repeatedly rejected Sailerism. Indeed, leading Republicans often seemed to run in the other direction from its commonsense logic. The facts are clear: that Mitt Romney failed to get many votes from working-class whites in the very places where Trump just attracted them in droves caused the GOP to lose the White House in 2012.
Predictably, the vanquished GOP in November 2012 determined that they needed to get more Hispanics voting Republican. The stakes were clear within days of Romney’s defeat, as I observed at the time:
The GOP has a basic choice to make if it wants to survive as a national party: Get more Hispanics or get more whites. Doing the latter, especially reaching out to whites who are economically hurting, would require the party to conduct a painful self-examination as to why it favors the wealthy so consistently at the expense of average people. Doing the former will require glossy ads, more token brown faces at GOP events, and greater marketing en español yet no real introspection. Of course, the latter course might actually save the Republicans nationally, while the former course is a flight of fancy. Nevertheless, expect bulk purchases of “Yo soy Republican!” t-shirts and bumper-stickers to rise.
Trump adopted the Sailer Strategy—whether he knew it I have no idea—and won handsomely. It would be wrong to impute huge numbers of down-market whites voting for Trump simply to racism, as many on the left predictably are doing. Quite a few Trump voters in swing states like Pennsylvania and Ohio turn out to have voted for Obama—twice. They wanted change, Obama didn’t deliver, so they gave Trump a chance to be the change-agent in Washington they have long sought. The roots of their dissatisfaction are social and economic more than racial, and bien-pensant efforts to portray their legitimate grievances as “hate” reflect the worst of post-modern progressive intolerance.
All the same, it cannot be denied that ethno-racial concerns played a role here—and that it was the Democrats who opened that can of worms. Since the beginning of the century, liberals have been crowing about the “emerging Democratic majority” being delivered by changing demographics, heavily fueled by immigration (legal or not). President Obama’s reelection four years ago seemed to conclusively prove that the “new” America—morally superior to the old, white-dominated one—had arrived, and the Republicans were on life support, waiting for GOP voters to go the way of the dinosaur. As one of Obama’s media acolytes hailed the 2012 victory:
President Barack Obama did not just win reelection tonight. His victory signaled the irreversible triumph of a new, 21st-century America: multiracial, multi-ethnic, global in outlook and moving beyond centuries of racial, sexual, marital and religious tradition.
This was more of the Marxistoid “right side of History” blather that Team Obama has indulged in for the last eight years—and it was utterly wrong. To the surprise of no one who understands human nature, many whites didn’t appreciate being told that they had to die off for “progress” to be achieved. They didn’t like being derided by their betters as “bitter clingers” with their guns and Bibles, and they especially didn’t like being termed “deplorables” unworthy of compassion or consideration. In the last days of Hillary’s doomed campaign, its contempt for a huge chunk of the American population had become so blatant that one of her top celebrity surrogates publicly hailed the “extinction” of straight white men as a step in the right direction.
Trump is no political genius. He made an appeal to working-class whites, who correctly felt that the Democrats viewed them with undisguised contempt and didn’t want their vote. The “emerging Democratic majority” thesis included the need to get some of those whites, a legacy Democratic voting bloc, to win national elections; under Obama, his party decided they didn’t need them at all, which was a terrible, almost incomprehensible mistake. It shouldn’t be necessary to point out that running against working-class whites—at almost 40 percent of the electorate, the biggest voting bloc in America—is the definition of political insanity.
Yet progressives somehow managed not to see the nose right on their face. Hence President Trump. What commentators term “identity politics” has now become normative, thanks to the Democrats indulging in it, and Trump is now aping them. It would be more correct to term this what it actually is: nationalism. Ethno-racial nationalism is an enormously potent political force; wise politicians know this and employ it cautiously. Nationalism arouses genuine passion and is a political motivator like no other, which it explains why a majority of white women voted for Trump, to the bitter consternation of outraged feminists.
....
In recent decades, Washington has advocated that Black, Hispanic and Asian nationalisms are “good” (Americans of Middle Eastern descent may soon be added to the good list) while White Nationalism is “bad.” However, average whites—meaning those not indoctrinated in critical race theory in college—will never see it that way. The problem with pushing identity politics among minorities as a political weapon is that the majority eventually realizes they have an identity too. As I explained back in early 2015, before Donald Trump entered the presidential race, “However verboten discussion of White Nationalism is at present among polite Americans, it is unavoidable that this will become an issue in the future, with potentially explosive consequences.”
....
There’s not much for Republicans to crow about, however, despite their enormous political windfall. Trump won precisely because he ignored or repudiated most longstanding “conservative” policies. Working-class whites have little interest in privatizing Social Security or open borders or engaging in endless losing wars in the Middle East. The GOP has changed, only their leaders seem not to have noticed. The Republicans are now the White party, de facto, whether they want to be or not. American politics will never be the same, and 2016 looks like a landmark election in the manner of 1980, 1932, or 1860, each of which transformed the United States. Buckle up, it looks to be a bumpy ride ahead in the emerging era of competing American ethno-nationalisms. Source. The whole article is worth a read. Good article. I'd almost forgotten he deserves credit for dismantling not one but two political dynasties. He's very much right on the macro-point that whites were told they need to die off for younger, more morally sophisticated millennials and new 1st/2nd gen immigrants to take over. Cis straight men, particularly the religious were derided by her supporters to some extent. That dampens the sympathy to minority and LGBTQ struggles if the "champions of the oppressed" can't extend their tolerance to the subconsciously-racist whites. Taken together, political marginalization and moral scolds mean Trump can get away with misogynistic comments and irreverent immigrant speech. The body politic was already weary before the scandals broke. That plays into the double standard on incorrect nationalism. It's fine and dandy to use your identity as an American of Hispanic Extent to seize on your culture, to color your views on immigration, and to vote as a bloc. But older families of western European immigrants have problematic cultures on topics of religion, assimilation, traditional sex roles, in-group favoritism, and gun culture. The group identity was largely subdued behind individualism and colorblind attitudes, as well as conservatism and republicanism. Now some of that has eroded from decades of identity group politics that say voting in your narrow tribal interest in populist fashion is the new moral act. I don't like where the realignment is ultimately going, which is away from the conservative virtues and towards more entitlement program debt and less sane trade policy. The errors in policy will eventually reveal themselves. America will be poorer and even less united than it is now. Our friends and allies will suffer too. If Trump does a good enough job on courts, taxes, immigration, and the bureaucracy, (and its unlikely) that day might not come for some time. Very prescient example from that Claremont review "Flight 93 Election" ... you play the odds not that you like the odds, but you know there isn't another choice.
The argument that white nationalism is merely a reaction to SJWs talking about feminism and words spoken in support of Hispanic and black groups is dirt. These people should just be honest and say "we are the majority acting in our self-interest to protect our majority and our favor, because that's what we want to do".
You don't need to seek excuses in the left and the media for all your viewpoints.
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On November 16 2016 00:27 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 00:16 LemOn wrote:On November 15 2016 22:59 farvacola wrote: Depending on what happens with healthcare reform, I bet we see a lot of strikes over healthcare benefits this next year or so. Eh really? He already said he will keep the clauses people are most likely to protest about.. And to the most protestable thing - straight up deporting 2-3million illegals he's already said he'll "focus on those with criminal records" so the 3 million is not happening anytime soon. Nobody will go into strike because of protectionist trade policies, cutting taxes of favouring jobs over climate change protection. Funny part is that millions of illegals were deported during Obama's reign and no one said anything. Trump says he'll do the same thing with those with criminal records and suddenly it's national outrage. People need to be more informed. People do need to be more informed. The Obama administration changed how deportation numbers were calculated.
On the other side of the ledger, the number of people deported at or near the border has gone up — primarily as a result of changing who gets counted in the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency's deportation statistics.
The vast majority of those border crossers would not have been treated as formal deportations under most previous administrations. If all removals were tallied, the total sent back to Mexico each year would have been far higher under those previous administrations than it is now. From the LA times... I can add link after work
So it's always been said with a wink and a nod. They just started counting people turned away attempting to cross the border as deportations and presto-chango the number goes up afterwards. I'm sure those actually committed to truth in statistics will recognize that changing the meaning of what it measures makes comparisons to the past disingenuous, just like if they changed what the poverty rate was. I'm also more than a little interested if anyone previously uninformed will admit this changes things despite the prior conclusion agreeing with their outlook on immigration (I.e. it is the other side that is uninformed).
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Sanya12364 Posts
On November 15 2016 23:51 ZasZ. wrote: I think the push-back against "the 50% of people who voted for Donald Trump are racist" is pretty intellectually dishonest, when you get down to practical results. It's an incontrovertible fact that Donald Trump appeals to the racists, sexists, and homophobes in this country. As far as I'm concerned, that puts Donald Trump voters into three categories:
A) Racists, sexists, and homophobes (a small portion of his base, but a very vocal one); B) People who don't care about the racism, sexism, and homphobia because they are interested in some other issue (probably the vast majority of his base); and C) People who weren't actually paying attention to this election.
"50% of people who voted for Donald Trump are racist" statement is much more of a problem for the Democratic party. True or not true, making this statement pretty much closes the Democratic party off to a large portion of Trump voters with the alleged guilt by association. Democrats might be able to write off 25% of the electorate. It would be very difficult to write off 40%. You can believe whatever you want, but the politics is very bad. For the country, we have to face reality. If the statement is true, we have a very racist country. Frankly speaking, we actually have a racist, sexist, and homophobic country. I would say that we can see many people in society at the same level as Trump and many more that hold milder versions of racism. And everyone exhibits some racism at a sub-conscious level. Identity politics as policy is very dangerous, but as a country, the United States has been playing identity politics for a long long time and still survived as a country. Some countries like Yugoslavia have not survived as well.
Secondly, it's well recognized that the big bloc of Trump voters weren't overtly racist, but didn't care about Trump's overtly racist remarks. In the campaign, not being PC and being insensitive to feelings of certain identity groups was actually a selling point to some of these voters because Trump was unfiltered by Washington unlike many of the previous presidential candidates. For some, this was a strong selling point because Trump appeared unafraid to talk about and potentially tackle some really difficult issues.
The leeway that Trump had in this was amazing. I think there was some talk about campaign-defining moments in other years where single incidents were extremely damaging. This year Trump did it so many times and was so unapologetic about it that it became part of his character. Honestly, I think you can only get away with it this year because the reputation of both Washington and the media had eroded so much in parts of the country.
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On November 16 2016 00:29 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 00:10 Sermokala wrote: Beacuse the exact thing the EU needs right now is to get into a trade war with the US. Ditching regulations to be more competetive (what Trump seems to want) is starting a Tradewar, responding to it isn't. How can he deport the children of illegal immigrants? Don't they become US citizens by being born in the US?
Not all children of illegal immigrants were born in the US, some people illegally immigrated with children that were born elsewhere.
Also... if your parents are being deported and you are a minor, then you could stay with them (as a US citizen living abroad) or go into foster care in the US as a US citizen without parents able to take care of you.
Ideally in that type of situation (if you are going to deport illegal immigrants with citizen children), you let the parents choose... if they want their child to go back with them or stay with adult legal immigrant/citizen relatives or go into the foster system.
(basically the same thing that happens when you arrest parents with noncriminal children...except they don't have the option of having their kids go to jail with them)
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
It definitely didn't hurt for Trump that the other candidate was also hated by most of the country and that she was also so arrogant as to believe she could coast to victory off Trump hate without fostering any reasonable amount of support for herself as a candidate in her own right.
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On November 16 2016 01:14 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 00:27 Incognoto wrote:On November 16 2016 00:16 LemOn wrote:On November 15 2016 22:59 farvacola wrote: Depending on what happens with healthcare reform, I bet we see a lot of strikes over healthcare benefits this next year or so. Eh really? He already said he will keep the clauses people are most likely to protest about.. And to the most protestable thing - straight up deporting 2-3million illegals he's already said he'll "focus on those with criminal records" so the 3 million is not happening anytime soon. Nobody will go into strike because of protectionist trade policies, cutting taxes of favouring jobs over climate change protection. Funny part is that millions of illegals were deported during Obama's reign and no one said anything. Trump says he'll do the same thing with those with criminal records and suddenly it's national outrage. People need to be more informed. People do need to be more informed. The Obama administration changed how deportation numbers were calculated. Show nested quote +On the other side of the ledger, the number of people deported at or near the border has gone up — primarily as a result of changing who gets counted in the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency's deportation statistics.
The vast majority of those border crossers would not have been treated as formal deportations under most previous administrations. If all removals were tallied, the total sent back to Mexico each year would have been far higher under those previous administrations than it is now. From the LA times... I can add link after work So it's always been said with a wink and a nod. They just started counting people turned away attempting to cross the border as deportations and presto-chango the number goes up afterwards. I'm sure those actually committed to truth in statistics will recognize that changing the meaning of what it measures makes comparisons to the past disingenuous, just like if they changed what the poverty rate was. I'm also more than a little interested if anyone previously uninformed will admit this changes things despite the prior conclusion agreeing with their outlook on immigration (I.e. it is the other side that is uninformed).
I understand your point but what does that tell us?
Are you implying that the deportation numbers under Obama are trivial and not actually to be taken into account? Or are you implying that Trump will increase the number of deported illegals (and that that is a good or bad thing)?
I'm asking neutrally because I'm not sure what to make of your remark. I do however thank you for making it, since I wasn't aware that they changed what it formally means to be deported.
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The frightening thing about Facebook is how below the radar it is.
When you had more traditional media their means of spreading relied a lot on very public methods. You broadcast over the radio, on TV, handed out newspapers. At best you had some whispered rumors or less public methods of spreading information (like your union handing you some information), but it's something that would spread much slower and probably accounted for much less of the total population. So the population as a whole had some overall oversight of the spread of information.
But with Facebook both the scale and the subtly of the problem is pretty staggering. You could easily have gone the entire campaign and not at all been aware of the sort of information being spread on Facebook about Clinton (and to a lesser but still very significant extent Trump). In fact it seems like that was the case for a lot of pundits and reporters who were blindsided by the extent of the situation.
I don't know, maybe it's usually this way, by growing it did at least always feel like people generally had a strong amount awareness of what news people were consuming and how. Facebook's largely hidden news pile seems to just have everyone guessing in the dark at what everyone else is reading/believing.
Even beyond Facebook it's staggering how fragmented stuff is. Like I couldn't even reasonably tell you if Clinton ran a negative campaign first hand. I know she ran ads that were composed of Trump quotes, but I have no idea what % of ads that was compared to ones talking about what Clinton will do. I pretty much don't consume ads, I watch most TV as recorded programs or On Demand/Netflix/etc and most of my media consumption is video games rather than TV anyways. So my experience of how someone campaigned is going to be totally different than someone who watches TV live regularly. There's so many different types of media now that we're not all sharing similar overlapping experiences like you would have had 20 years ago.
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