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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14102 Posts
November 15 2016 11:13 GMT
#124681
I think it's more than fair and not an insult to say there is some racism in Trump's message and that people who voted for him were attracted beacuse of it.

It's a much better analogy I believe to portray him as a brick through the window or as a product of white anger that unlike other racial anger was demeaned and ignored.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 15 2016 11:54 GMT
#124682
At his first news conference following his party's shocking loss at the ballot box last week, President Obama appeared to needle Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton's campaign for not paying enough attention to rural voters who eventually handed President-elect Donald Trump the upset victory.

"When your team loses, everybody gets deflated, and it's hard, and it's challenging," Obama said. "I think it's a healthy thing for the Democratic Party to go through some reflection."

"We have to compete everywhere. We have to show up everywhere," the president said, noting that when he was campaigning he went to many rural places in a very white, blue-collar state like Iowa and ended up winning twice. Clinton lost the state by 10 points.

"I won Iowa not because the demographics dictated that I would win Iowa," Obama continued. "It was because I spent 87 days going to every small town."

But now the two-term Democratic president is tasked with overseeing a peaceful transfer of power to a man he repeatedly called unqualified to succeed him in the Oval Office.

"This office is bigger than any one person, and that's why ensuring a smooth transition is so important," the president said, taking questions before he departs on a weeklong trip to Greece, Germany and Peru to meet with foreign leaders.

Throughout much of the news conference, it sounded like Obama was trying to reassure many worried Americans and leaders abroad about an incoming President Trump. He said that at their meeting last week, the president-elect said he would maintain the U.S. commitment to NATO — something the GOP nominee himself questioned on the campaign trail.

"This office has a way of waking you up. Campaigning is different from governing. I think he recognizes that," the president continued, echoing a theme he would return to many times.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 12:20:32
November 15 2016 12:17 GMT
#124683
+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rSDUsMwakI

Does anyone know why non-Americans can't watch this?

I mean it was uploaded to other channels so I just watched it there. John Oliver is incredibly, incredibly pissed at the outcome of this election and he wasn't very polite about it.

I agree with some of things he said, however the overall tone is very, very negative. Particularly insinuating that half of America are sexist and racist when that isn't quite true and most people with common sense know that.

edit is this real (i mean it's not) or what the heck is this?


maru lover forever
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5298 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 12:44:28
November 15 2016 12:33 GMT
#124684
reEdit: for those wondering + Show Spoiler +
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 15 2016 12:59 GMT
#124685
US armed forces and the CIA may have committed war crimes by torturing detainees in Afghanistan, the international criminal court’s chief prosecutor has said in a report, raising the possibility that American citizens could be indicted even though Washington has not joined the global court.

“Members of US armed forces appear to have subjected at least 61 detained persons to torture, cruel treatment, outrages upon personal dignity on the territory of Afghanistan between 1 May 2003 and 31 December 2014,” according to the report issued by prosecutor Fatou Bensouda’s office on Monday.

The report adds that CIA operatives may have subjected at least 27 detainees in Afghanistan, Poland, Romania and Lithuania to “torture, cruel treatment, outrages upon personal dignity and/or rape” between December 2002 and March 2008.

Most of the alleged abuse happened in 2003-04, the report says.

Prosecutors said they would decide “imminently” whether to seek authorisation to open a full-scale investigation in Afghanistan that could lead to war crimes charges.

Elizabeth Trudeau, the spokeswoman for the State Department, said the US did not believe an ICC investigation was “warranted or appropriate”.

“The United States is deeply committed to complying with the law of war, and we have a robust national system of investigation and accountability that more than meets international standards,” Trudeau said.

A Pentagon spokesman, Navy Capt Jeff Davis, said officials were awaiting further details about the ICC findings before commenting.

Established in 2002, the international criminal court is the world’s first permanent court set up to prosecute war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. More than 120 countries are members, but superpowers including the US, Russia and China have not signed up.

The former US president Bill Clinton signed the Rome treaty that established the court on 31 Deember 2000, but President George W Bush renounced the signature, citing fears that Americans would be unfairly prosecuted for political reasons.

Advertisement

Even though the US is not a member of the court, Americans could still face prosecution at its headquarters in The Hague if they commit crimes within its jurisdiction in a country that is a member, such as Afghanistan, and are not prosecuted at home.

So far, all of the ICC’s trials have dealt with crimes committed in Africa.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45253 Posts
November 15 2016 13:50 GMT
#124686
This is why it's 100% bullshit when you hear conservatives say "Before we help refugees, we should be helping our veterans!" They have NO intention of helping our veterans. Or anyone else, for that matter. Republicans care about our flag- a symbol for freedom- being dishonored, but don't care at all about the actual freedom fighters being dishonored. It's awful.

I get that Republicans appeal to the military votes with warmongering and flexing American muscle, but veterans keep voting against their own interests. This happens again and again... vote in Trump, a man who mocks American heroes, and vote in Republican Senators who screw them over? Facepalm.

"The largest piece of veterans legislation in decades -- aimed at expanding health care, education and other benefits -- was rejected Thursday by the Senate on a procedural issue after proponents failed to obtain 60 votes to keep the bill alive.
Wrangling over an issue -- veterans -- that often receives bipartisan support, the legislation died on a vote of 56-41, with only two Republicans voting for it."
~ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/02/27/veterans-legislation-bernie-sanders-senate/5859217/
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 15 2016 13:57 GMT
#124687
Air maintenance workers at United Parcel Service Inc (UPS.N) have voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike against the world's largest package delivery company as contract talks remained deadlocked over health-care benefits, the workers' union said on Monday.

Teamsters Local 2727 said 98 percent of those who took part in a mail-in ballot voted to authorize strike action. Eighty percent of the local's 1,200 members participated in the ballot.

Contract talks have been ongoing for three years. If they remain deadlocked Monday, union representatives say they will begin the process that could lead to a strike within 60 days.

The main sticking point has been healthcare benefits. The Teamsters say UPS is demanding major concessions, including a massive spike in retiree contributions for health-care costs.

"UPS wants huge concessions and our members are not willing to take them," Local 2727 President Tim Boyle said. "We're not asking for anything we don't already have and this demonstrates our members are willing to strike."The air maintenance staff work at hubs around the United States, with more than one-third in Louisville, Kentucky, which is UPS' main hub.

"UPS continues to negotiate in good faith for a contract that is good for our employees, our customers and our company," a UPS spokesman said. "We are confident talks will be completed successfully."

The company said it was also hopeful that contract talks can be concluded "without any disruption" to customers.

A strike could ground UPS' airplanes, affecting packages shipped by air. While it would not halt all deliveries, it would be a major disruption.

The air maintenance workers are governed by the U.S. Railway Labor Act, which only permits strikes after negotiations and mediation have failed.

If talks remain deadlocked Monday, the Teamsters say they will ask the federal mediator overseeing negotiations to release the union from the bargaining table. If there is no resolution after a 30-day cooling-off period, a board appointed by the president would have to rule on a strike, which would take up to 30 days.

A strike would be highly unlikely during UPS' crucial holiday peak season this year. But it could go before the presidential board before President Barack Obama leaves office in January.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18846 Posts
November 15 2016 13:59 GMT
#124688
Depending on what happens with healthcare reform, I bet we see a lot of strikes over healthcare benefits this next year or so.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45253 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 14:28:28
November 15 2016 14:28 GMT
#124689
On November 15 2016 22:59 farvacola wrote:
Depending on what happens with healthcare reform, I bet we see a lot of strikes over healthcare benefits this next year or so.


It's hard to be optimistic or predictive when you have a chameleon as the president-elect, but I do find a small glimmer of hope in the fact that Trump has dialed down his outrage at Obamacare now that he's actually learning about healthcare. He's said that he wants to keep certain parts of Obamacare, although I'm sure that Republicans will want to change a lot with their repeal.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 15 2016 14:44 GMT
#124690
As GH says, emails turn out to be the gift that keeps on giving. Only this time, it's not Hillary Clinton who is on the business end of email troubles.

Hillary Clinton lost the presidential election, but an email controversy may still end up plaguing the White House. Turns out, Vice President-elect Mike Pence is also being dogged by a case over alleged "email secrecy," the Indianapolis Star reported Monday.

On Nov. 21, the Indiana Court of Appeals will hear oral arguments over whether Pence should be forced to release redacted portions of documents, including email communications between Pence and Daniel Hodge, the chief of staff of Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R). The documents in question pertain to Pence's decision to hire outside counsel in a lawsuit Republican governors brought against President Obama for his 2014 executive action on immigration. Democratic labor lawyer William Groth requested the documents because he suspected Pence's hiring of an external law firm was a "waste of taxpayer dollars." [T]he people have the right to know how much of their money was spent,” Groth said.

Though Pence responded to Groth with 57 pages of information, the documents reportedly had "substantial redaction" and a political "white paper" was apparently not attached, Indy Star reported. Groth brought the matter to the Indiana Superior Court, which ruled "the issue was not a matter for the courts to decide."

Groth appealed that decision in June, resulting in the Nov. 21 court date. Experts argue that if the courts rule in favor of Pence, "'that would severely limit the Access to Public Records Act,'" a former Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law professor told Indy Star. Another law professor said: "It comes down to this — the court is giving up its ability to check another branch of government, and that should worry people."

Source
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ZasZ.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2911 Posts
November 15 2016 14:51 GMT
#124691
I think the push-back against "the 50% of people who voted for Donald Trump are racist" is pretty intellectually dishonest, when you get down to practical results. It's an incontrovertible fact that Donald Trump appeals to the racists, sexists, and homophobes in this country. As far as I'm concerned, that puts Donald Trump voters into three categories:

A) Racists, sexists, and homophobes (a small portion of his base, but a very vocal one);
B) People who don't care about the racism, sexism, and homphobia because they are interested in some other issue (probably the vast majority of his base); and
C) People who weren't actually paying attention to this election.

And yes, I would file "being anti-Hillary" under category B, although it depends on if that is based in misogyny or the fact that she was a terrible candidate, which she was.

Given those options, perhaps you can see why it is of no consolation to people of color, women, or gays when random Trump supporters say "well I'm not racist!" If you voted for him, you're contributing to the racism, so is there any functional or practical difference? You've looked at all the things he has said and promised to do and said "Yep, I support that." And if it was so he would "drain the swamp," then you're already getting scammed. His transition team is a who's who of nepotism and insiders.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 15 2016 14:57 GMT
#124692
Former French President Nicolas Sarkozy has proposed that Europe should impose a carbon tax on American imports if Donald Trump pulls the United States out of the Paris climate pact.

More than 100 countries have ratified the Paris global emissions deal, which was inked in December after marathon talks to cap greenhouse gases that cause global warming.

"Donald Trump has said – we’ll see if he keeps this promise – that he won’t respect the conclusions of the Paris climate agreement,” Sarkozy, who is a French presidential candidate told the TF1 television channel on Sunday.

“Well, I will demand that Europe put in place a carbon tax at its border, a tax of 1-3 per cent, for all products coming from the United States, if the United States doesn’t apply environmental rules that we are imposing on our companies,” he added.

Sarkozy, a frontrunner for the nomination of the centre-right Republicans party, is also in favour of forcing public authorities in Europe to use more products or materials made in Europe.

Europe can no longer be “weak” or “naïve”, Sarkozy said, even as he defended the idea of the free movement of people and goods.

US president-elect Trump was elected on an overtly protectionist platform, promising to scrap international trade deals and railing against jobs and factories being sent abroad.

Economists fear that moves to protect national markets through tariffs or other barriers risk kicking off a global cycle of measures that would reduce international trade.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon told AFP last Friday that Trump might reconsider his pledge to cancel the Paris deal, saying it would “create serious problems if anybody wants to undo it.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14102 Posts
November 15 2016 15:10 GMT
#124693
Beacuse the exact thing the EU needs right now is to get into a trade war with the US.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 15:12:50
November 15 2016 15:11 GMT
#124694
On November 15 2016 12:50 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 12:43 pmh wrote:
On November 15 2016 10:57 LegalLord wrote:
For all intents and purposes Hillary gave every indication that she had no intention of changing anything about her policy. I wanted to see her throw an olive branch in the progressives' direction in her VP choice - no dice, she chose someone who was literally a carbon copy of herself. I wanted to see her appeal to the people who were skeptical of her, especially from the base which should have easily voted for her, in the convention. Nope, just an endless stream of identity politics with a brief and evidently sidelined appearance by the progressive stars (Warren and Sanders). I also wanted to see her take responsibility for her own past mistakes and promise to make them better - this wasn't done in any meaningful way.

This was arrogance, pure and simple. The idea that the other choice is so impossibly unfeasible for people to vote for, that she could get away with anything she wanted in the process of getting her win. And while I can't say that I was one of the ones brave enough to send that "fuck you" to her attitude (I have my own living situation to worry about and the status quo doesn't hurt me as much as Trump might), I absolutely can't feel bad about seeing her get this completely and utterly deserved comeuppance. The hardcore Sanders leftists who voted for her probably feel the exact same way right now.



She could have gone with sanders. It still is beyond me why they didn't pick sanders.
Probably because he was not part of the party elite. He did have more then sufficient support from the democratic voter base and would probably have won the primary if he would have had support from the party,instead the party working against them.
Sanders was perfect,but they come with caine.

Can any democrat here give me a solid argument for not picking sanders as vp?


Wall Street doesn't like Warren and Kaine (Warren would have been as equally fine as a choice really).



As was discussed before she picked Kaine, neither Sanders nor Warren were going to picked as VP. They are more popular than Clinton and worse could easily have dwarfed her at rallies. Thus she picked the most boring VP candidate who also supports TPP. Cuz ya know..
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LemOn
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United Kingdom8629 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 15:20:00
November 15 2016 15:16 GMT
#124695
On November 15 2016 22:59 farvacola wrote:
Depending on what happens with healthcare reform, I bet we see a lot of strikes over healthcare benefits this next year or so.

Eh really? He already said he will keep the clauses people are most likely to protest about..

And to the most protestable thing - straight up deporting 2-3million illegals he's already said he'll "focus on those with criminal records" so the 3 million is not happening anytime soon.

Nobody will go into strike because of protectionist trade policies, cutting taxes of favouring jobs over climate change protection.
Much is the father figure that I miss in my life. Go Daddy! DoC.LemOn, LemOn[5thF]
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18846 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 15:19:43
November 15 2016 15:18 GMT
#124696
On November 16 2016 00:16 LemOn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 22:59 farvacola wrote:
Depending on what happens with healthcare reform, I bet we see a lot of strikes over healthcare benefits this next year or so.

Eh really? He already said he will keep the clauses people are most likely to protest about..

And to the most protestable thing - straight up deporting 2-3million illegals he's already said he'll "focus on those with criminal records" so the 3 million is not happening anytime soon

Neither of those clauses actually solve the problem of what should follow a repealed Obamacare, and if Republicans like Paul Ryan get their way, huge numbers of people will suddenly find themselves without insurance after having it for years.

Also, if you're trying to convince folks fearful of Trump that they ought not be afraid, telling them that he'll focus on "those with criminal records" could hardly be less comforting given how the War on Drugs has created millions upon millions of small time offenders.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22079 Posts
November 15 2016 15:22 GMT
#124697
On November 16 2016 00:16 LemOn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 22:59 farvacola wrote:
Depending on what happens with healthcare reform, I bet we see a lot of strikes over healthcare benefits this next year or so.

Eh really? He already said he will keep the clauses people are most likely to protest about..

And to the most protestable thing - straight up deporting 2-3million illegals he's already said he'll "focus on those with criminal records" so the 3 million is not happening anytime soon

As someone else mentioned, you cant keep the 'insurers must accept clients, regardless of pre-existing conditions" without mandatory enrolment, the system would collapse as everyone would only sign up once they became sick.

He can get rid of the pre-existing condition clause and the system goes back to pre-ACA, he can keep the current system with some tweets or go full single payer but just repealing a couple of bits is unlikely to create a viable system.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
November 15 2016 15:23 GMT
#124698
On November 16 2016 00:10 Sermokala wrote:
Beacuse the exact thing the EU needs right now is to get into a trade war with the US.

while a trade war isn't good; the US may also initiate a trade war, depending on how trump goes on his protectionism.
on a more general note, one of the purpose of the rtade deals is to ensure environment standards are being met, and that nations can't undercut prices simply by ignoring the environmental externalities. if trade deals break down, then it's not entirely unreasonable to at least ensure the externalities are being covered for products that are under your jurisdiction (which anything imported to EU would be for the EU)
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7322 Posts
November 15 2016 15:25 GMT
#124699
On November 16 2016 00:18 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2016 00:16 LemOn wrote:
On November 15 2016 22:59 farvacola wrote:
Depending on what happens with healthcare reform, I bet we see a lot of strikes over healthcare benefits this next year or so.

Eh really? He already said he will keep the clauses people are most likely to protest about..

And to the most protestable thing - straight up deporting 2-3million illegals he's already said he'll "focus on those with criminal records" so the 3 million is not happening anytime soon

Neither of those clauses actually solve the problem of what should follow a repealed Obamacare, and if Republicans like Paul Ryan get their way, huge numbers of people will suddenly find themselves without insurance after having it for years.

Also, if you're trying to convince folks fearful of Trump that they ought not be afraid, telling them that he'll focus on "those with criminal records" could hardly be less comforting given how the War on Drugs has created millions upon millions of small time offenders.



Just wait for the shit show if they ever get the voucher system in. Purposely putting out a plan that wouldnt keep up with the rising cost of healthcare would be the most dishonest shit Ryan could do.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
November 15 2016 15:27 GMT
#124700
On November 16 2016 00:16 LemOn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 22:59 farvacola wrote:
Depending on what happens with healthcare reform, I bet we see a lot of strikes over healthcare benefits this next year or so.

Eh really? He already said he will keep the clauses people are most likely to protest about..

And to the most protestable thing - straight up deporting 2-3million illegals he's already said he'll "focus on those with criminal records" so the 3 million is not happening anytime soon.

Nobody will go into strike because of protectionist trade policies, cutting taxes of favouring jobs over climate change protection.


Funny part is that millions of illegals were deported during Obama's reign and no one said anything. Trump says he'll do the same thing with those with criminal records and suddenly it's national outrage.

People need to be more informed.
maru lover forever
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