• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:25
CEST 06:25
KST 13:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
2v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature2Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy8uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event17Serral wins EWC 202549Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments7[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10
StarCraft 2
General
2v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Is there a way to see if 2 accounts=1 person? uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments SEL Masters #5 - Korea vs Russia (SC Evo) Enki Epic Series #5 - TaeJa vs Classic (SC Evo) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather
Brood War
General
Soma Explains: JaeDong's Double Muta Micro ASL 20 HYPE VIDEO! BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW AKA finder tool ASL20 Pre-season Tier List ranking!
Tourneys
Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches KCM 2025 Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI The year 2050
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Biochemical Cost of Gami…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1215 users

US Politics Mega-thread - Page 579

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 577 578 579 580 581 10093 Next
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 29 2013 15:21 GMT
#11561
On October 30 2013 00:05 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2013 23:28 oneofthem wrote:
On October 29 2013 04:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Some evidence that the Volcker rule isn't such a hot idea.

... the paper has big implications for the move towards investors trading with each other, without the help of bond dealers standing in the middle.

"Our overall result has an important implication for the Volcker rule that is underway to rein in dealers’ risk-taking in the OTC market. The rule prohibits proprietary trading by banks except for market-making activities. As Due (2012) points out, however, once the proposed rule by the regulating agencies… would be implemented, the capacity of liquidity provision by market-makers will be reduced, and eventually, other institutional investors, including hedge-funds, will fill in the void.

This is not a very desirable outcome, because our evidence points out that the unwinding of hedge-funds’ positions can be detrimental to the cash market, and thus to the funding costs of corporations. Since dealers are typically banks and regulated by capital requirements, they can take a better role in providing liquidity. They also have incentives to provide liquidity even in the worst liquidity crisis to maintain their reputation as market-makers."

FT Alphaville article: Link
NY Fed paper cited: Link

capital chasing yields as it always does. another piece of coal to the shadow banking fire

Normally capital chases yields, but that dynamic can break down when liquidity crunches emerge.

well, liquidity usually also makes itself available when there's the yield, outside of systemic credit crisis anyway
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
MstrJinbo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1251 Posts
October 29 2013 16:07 GMT
#11562
On October 29 2013 18:58 Velr wrote:
I work at a health insurance company here in switzerland. You wouldn't believe how stupid many people are when it comes to this stuff (i'm serious, you wouldn't).

What happened is:
AMA defines what an insurance plan has to cover.
Some plans don't do that and therefore have to be ended.
People that had one of the above plans now have to get a new one.

Sorry, that sounds pretty reasonable to me or what point am I missing?

There is plenty of stuff to go, with good reason, after Obama, but this just doesn't strike me as one of them?


Sounds like President Obama shouldn't have promised Americans that they could keep their existing health care plans back in 2010 if that point was so obvious. Unless of course, he was making promises he had power to keep in efforts to tip the scales on an unpopular bill.

Also people who actually read the contents of the ACA saw this was coming and have been taking about it for 3 years. Media is only running with it now that insurers are actually dropping plans.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
October 29 2013 16:11 GMT
#11563
On October 29 2013 16:10 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
President Obama repeatedly assured Americans that after the Affordable Care Act became law, people who liked their health insurance would be able to keep it. But millions of Americans are getting or are about to get cancellation letters for their health insurance under Obamacare, say experts, and the Obama administration has known that for at least three years.


Source


The worst part about this is that many health insurance companies are going to use this as an excuse to cancel plans that are no longer profitable for them. This gives them a way to claim they're doing it because of Obamacare.

If only some sort of "public option" had been created...
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-29 16:23:48
October 29 2013 16:22 GMT
#11564
On October 30 2013 00:17 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2013 21:50 DoubleReed wrote:
On October 29 2013 18:29 Danglars wrote:
Calling insurance plans newly regulation-killed as not "actual insurance" just defies belief. These dumb Americans that have bad plans and keep paying for them, they can't be trusted to buy good plans.

No true scotsman insurance plan.


Oh please. This is typical blame-the-victim mentality. You can always blame the person for getting scammed. Generally I think it is better and more sensible policy to blame the scammers for scamming people.

The whole point of scamming is earning people's trust. Trusting systems and people does not make you stupid. Highly intelligent people fall for scams all the time. To label someone as stupid and deserving for getting scammed does nothing to solve the actual problem and allows scammers to continue exploiting people.

Even worse, you're only doing this victim blaming because it feeds your ego. You just want to say "well I've never been scammed so THERE!" which is just a stupid way to consider policy.


You once again display that in your mind, you know better.

The administration flat out lying about the law is of no concern to you because now these people will be forced to have "good" insurance by your standards. And they are clearly too inept on their own to decide which plan they want.

"Some are being 'scammed,' guess we better screw them and everyone else over, since they are unable to get what they need."


Danglars is the one that referred to those people as "dumb", and you just called them "inept", and yet you think I'm the one who acts like I know better?

I'm trying to understand what it's like to have no self-awareness, but it's hard.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
October 29 2013 16:39 GMT
#11565
On October 30 2013 00:21 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2013 00:05 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On October 29 2013 23:28 oneofthem wrote:
On October 29 2013 04:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Some evidence that the Volcker rule isn't such a hot idea.

... the paper has big implications for the move towards investors trading with each other, without the help of bond dealers standing in the middle.

"Our overall result has an important implication for the Volcker rule that is underway to rein in dealers’ risk-taking in the OTC market. The rule prohibits proprietary trading by banks except for market-making activities. As Due (2012) points out, however, once the proposed rule by the regulating agencies… would be implemented, the capacity of liquidity provision by market-makers will be reduced, and eventually, other institutional investors, including hedge-funds, will fill in the void.

This is not a very desirable outcome, because our evidence points out that the unwinding of hedge-funds’ positions can be detrimental to the cash market, and thus to the funding costs of corporations. Since dealers are typically banks and regulated by capital requirements, they can take a better role in providing liquidity. They also have incentives to provide liquidity even in the worst liquidity crisis to maintain their reputation as market-makers."

FT Alphaville article: Link
NY Fed paper cited: Link

capital chasing yields as it always does. another piece of coal to the shadow banking fire

Normally capital chases yields, but that dynamic can break down when liquidity crunches emerge.

well, liquidity usually also makes itself available when there's the yield, outside of systemic credit crisis anyway

Usually, yes. But the main point of these proposed regulations is to keep things going in unusually stressed times.
Thomas Sowell
Profile Joined October 2013
33 Posts
October 29 2013 16:40 GMT
#11566
When you want to help people, you tell them the truth. When you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear.
Much of the social history of the Western world over the past three decades has involved replacing what worked with what sounded good. / There are no solutions; there are only trade-offs.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
October 29 2013 16:42 GMT
#11567
On October 30 2013 01:11 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2013 16:10 Introvert wrote:
President Obama repeatedly assured Americans that after the Affordable Care Act became law, people who liked their health insurance would be able to keep it. But millions of Americans are getting or are about to get cancellation letters for their health insurance under Obamacare, say experts, and the Obama administration has known that for at least three years.


Source


The worst part about this is that many health insurance companies are going to use this as an excuse to cancel plans that are no longer profitable for them. This gives them a way to claim they're doing it because of Obamacare.

If only some sort of "public option" had been created...

What would a public option do to address that issue?
packrat386
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States5077 Posts
October 29 2013 16:44 GMT
#11568
On October 30 2013 01:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2013 01:11 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On October 29 2013 16:10 Introvert wrote:
President Obama repeatedly assured Americans that after the Affordable Care Act became law, people who liked their health insurance would be able to keep it. But millions of Americans are getting or are about to get cancellation letters for their health insurance under Obamacare, say experts, and the Obama administration has known that for at least three years.


Source


The worst part about this is that many health insurance companies are going to use this as an excuse to cancel plans that are no longer profitable for them. This gives them a way to claim they're doing it because of Obamacare.

If only some sort of "public option" had been created...

What would a public option do to address that issue?

Give people health insurance who can't get it otherwise? The problem with public option is that it's expensive, not that it doesn't address the problem.
dreaming of a sunny day
Thomas Sowell
Profile Joined October 2013
33 Posts
October 29 2013 16:55 GMT
#11569
Insurance is all about risk. Yet neither insurance companies nor their policy-holders can do anything about one of the biggest risks -- namely, interference by politicians, to turn insurance into something other than a device to deal with risk.

By passing laws to force insurance companies to cover things that have nothing to do with risk, politicians force up the cost of insurance.

Annual checkups, for example, are known in advance to take place once a year. Foreseeable events are not a risk. Annual checkups are no cheaper when they are covered by an insurance policy. On the contrary, they are one of many things that are more expensive when they are covered by an insurance policy.

All the paperwork, record-keeping and other things that go with having any medical procedure covered by insurance have to be paid for, in addition to the cost of the medical procedure itself.

If automobile insurance covered the cost of oil changes or the purchase of gasoline, then both oil changes and gasoline would have to cost more, to cover the additional bureaucratic work involved.

In the case of health insurance, however, politicians love to mandate things that insurance must cover, including in some states treatment for baldness, contraceptives and whatever else politicians can think of. Playing Santa Claus costs a politician nothing, but it can cost the policy-holder a bundle -- all of which the politician will blame on the "greed" of the insurance company.

Insurance companies are regulated by both states and the federal government. This means that, instead of there being one vast nationwide market, where innumerable insurance companies compete with each other from coast to coast, there are 50 fragmented markets with different rules. That adds to the costs and reduces the competition in a given state.

Too many political "solutions" are solutions to problems created by previous political "solutions" -- and will be followed by new problems created by their current "solutions."

Health insurance would be a lot less expensive if it covered only the kinds of risks that can involve heavy costs, such as a major operation or a crippling disability. While such things can be individually very expensive, they don't happen to everybody, and insurance is one way to spread the risks, so that the protection of a given individual is not prohibitively expensive.

The problem of "pre-existing conditions" is a problem largely because of the way that politicians have written the laws -- more specifically, by giving a tax break to employer-provided health insurance. If individuals bought their own health insurance, with the same tax advantages, the fact that an illness occurred after they changed employers would not make it a "pre-existing condition."

There is no inherent reason for employers to be involved, in the first place. The fact that some guy manufactures furniture or plumbing fixtures in no way qualifies him to understand insurance for his employees. Including him in the loop adds another unnecessary layer of bureaucratic costs.
Much of the social history of the Western world over the past three decades has involved replacing what worked with what sounded good. / There are no solutions; there are only trade-offs.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
October 29 2013 17:15 GMT
#11570
There was a lot wrong with that post. Most glaringly, you can switch health insurance without it being employer based. And genetic conditions are also pre-existing. That simply doesn't fix the issue.

Not covering preventive care can increase costs. Just covering major issues does not lower the cost. You are just putting larger burden on the individual.

Lastly, health insurance is all about healthy people paying for sick people. That's the whole goal
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-29 17:32:03
October 29 2013 17:29 GMT
#11571
Simplest way to get down healthcare cost would be to regulate the prices hospitals and doctors can charge. I have seen bills where a hospital bed costs thousands of dollars per night or pharmacy charges that were above 100k. If they're not treating the people with liquid gold that's just ridiculous.

[image loading]

How is stuff like that even real :o
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
October 29 2013 17:32 GMT
#11572
It is entirely wrong to suggest that insurance is only useful for covering large, singular expenses; prescription coverage is one of the most utilized and helpful components.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4773 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-29 18:12:10
October 29 2013 18:10 GMT
#11573
On October 30 2013 01:22 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2013 00:17 Introvert wrote:
On October 29 2013 21:50 DoubleReed wrote:
On October 29 2013 18:29 Danglars wrote:
Calling insurance plans newly regulation-killed as not "actual insurance" just defies belief. These dumb Americans that have bad plans and keep paying for them, they can't be trusted to buy good plans.

No true scotsman insurance plan.


Oh please. This is typical blame-the-victim mentality. You can always blame the person for getting scammed. Generally I think it is better and more sensible policy to blame the scammers for scamming people.

The whole point of scamming is earning people's trust. Trusting systems and people does not make you stupid. Highly intelligent people fall for scams all the time. To label someone as stupid and deserving for getting scammed does nothing to solve the actual problem and allows scammers to continue exploiting people.

Even worse, you're only doing this victim blaming because it feeds your ego. You just want to say "well I've never been scammed so THERE!" which is just a stupid way to consider policy.


You once again display that in your mind, you know better.

The administration flat out lying about the law is of no concern to you because now these people will be forced to have "good" insurance by your standards. And they are clearly too inept on their own to decide which plan they want.

"Some are being 'scammed,' guess we better screw them and everyone else over, since they are unable to get what they need."


Danglars is the one that referred to those people as "dumb", and you just called them "inept", and yet you think I'm the one who acts like I know better?

I'm trying to understand what it's like to have no self-awareness, but it's hard.


Then let me explain.

I took Danglers to be making a point about Velr. Velr said that the administration's lie was fine, because now it will force people to buy "actual" insurance. Danglers was pointing out that was an absurd statement.

He didn't actually say these people were too stupid to choose (if he did, I would ask he correct me). That's the position he was mocking. You came to defense of Velr, and seem to agree. "Even smart people can be scammed." The implication being, they are being scammed now, don't realize it, and thus should be forced off of what they have for their own good. Now that last bit was slight extrapolation, but it seems reasonable given my previous interaction with you.

My point is proven because my comment about being inept was a restatement of what was Velr's premise. Everything else I have said on this topic contradicts my statement on ineptitude, if you take everything seriously.

Read with the context in mind instead of having a knee-jerk response.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Thomas Sowell
Profile Joined October 2013
33 Posts
October 29 2013 18:23 GMT
#11574
Price controls! If you don't like the price, just change it!

Let's just use our imaginations for a minute. Whenever I see huge inflated prices, the first thing I think is, "well, there is a real profit to be made undercutting those prices!" After all, the cost of keeping a patient in a room for a night should be nowhere near $760. I'm sure it could be done for less than half that cost.

But what would happen if I were to open my own hospital? Can you even imagine the avalanche of paper work and regulations and lawyers and health inspectors that would hail down upon me, either resulting in me shutting down completely or forcing me to massively raise my prices?

Of course we will be told that all of these regulations and controls and permits and certifications etc. etc. are for the public safety, but what it effectively creates are massive barriers to entry into the market, which is what keeps costs so high. That $68,000 bill buys the illusion of safety.

I've given people IV's before. It took a couple hours of training and about 5 minutes to administer. The solution itself is pretty cheap. You could give people IV's for a couple bucks a day in base cost. The other $1480 comes from where? Laws, regulations, lawsuits, permits, certifications, middle men... People will always point to the uninsured but that's been shown again and again to be a small percentage of the costs associated with health care.
Much of the social history of the Western world over the past three decades has involved replacing what worked with what sounded good. / There are no solutions; there are only trade-offs.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
October 29 2013 18:36 GMT
#11575
On October 30 2013 03:23 Thomas Sowell wrote:
Price controls! If you don't like the price, just change it!

Let's just use our imaginations for a minute. Whenever I see huge inflated prices, the first thing I think is, "well, there is a real profit to be made undercutting those prices!" After all, the cost of keeping a patient in a room for a night should be nowhere near $760. I'm sure it could be done for less than half that cost.

But what would happen if I were to open my own hospital? Can you even imagine the avalanche of paper work and regulations and lawyers and health inspectors that would hail down upon me, either resulting in me shutting down completely or forcing me to massively raise my prices?

Of course we will be told that all of these regulations and controls and permits and certifications etc. etc. are for the public safety, but what it effectively creates are massive barriers to entry into the market, which is what keeps costs so high. That $68,000 bill buys the illusion of safety.

I've given people IV's before. It took a couple hours of training and about 5 minutes to administer. The solution itself is pretty cheap. You could give people IV's for a couple bucks a day in base cost. The other $1480 comes from where? Laws, regulations, lawsuits, permits, certifications, middle men... People will always point to the uninsured but that's been shown again and again to be a small percentage of the costs associated with health care.


I'm pretty sure a health care system without the pesky "annoyances" of regulations, permits, certifications, and even malpractice lawsuits would be horrifying. Sure, prices would eventually be lowered, but when your medical standards are only enforced by customer rapport, you're essentially saying that people need to be treated by horrible doctors before the bad hospitals are weeded out.

Which is why free-market theory is completely inapplicable to health care, unless you're willing to except serious malpractice as acceptable losses.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-29 18:41:16
October 29 2013 18:38 GMT
#11576
On October 30 2013 03:10 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2013 01:22 DoubleReed wrote:
On October 30 2013 00:17 Introvert wrote:
On October 29 2013 21:50 DoubleReed wrote:
On October 29 2013 18:29 Danglars wrote:
Calling insurance plans newly regulation-killed as not "actual insurance" just defies belief. These dumb Americans that have bad plans and keep paying for them, they can't be trusted to buy good plans.

No true scotsman insurance plan.


Oh please. This is typical blame-the-victim mentality. You can always blame the person for getting scammed. Generally I think it is better and more sensible policy to blame the scammers for scamming people.

The whole point of scamming is earning people's trust. Trusting systems and people does not make you stupid. Highly intelligent people fall for scams all the time. To label someone as stupid and deserving for getting scammed does nothing to solve the actual problem and allows scammers to continue exploiting people.

Even worse, you're only doing this victim blaming because it feeds your ego. You just want to say "well I've never been scammed so THERE!" which is just a stupid way to consider policy.


You once again display that in your mind, you know better.

The administration flat out lying about the law is of no concern to you because now these people will be forced to have "good" insurance by your standards. And they are clearly too inept on their own to decide which plan they want.

"Some are being 'scammed,' guess we better screw them and everyone else over, since they are unable to get what they need."


Danglars is the one that referred to those people as "dumb", and you just called them "inept", and yet you think I'm the one who acts like I know better?

I'm trying to understand what it's like to have no self-awareness, but it's hard.


Then let me explain.

I took Danglers to be making a point about Velr. Velr said that the administration's lie was fine, because now it will force people to buy "actual" insurance. Danglers was pointing out that was an absurd statement.

He didn't actually say these people were too stupid to choose (if he did, I would ask he correct me). That's the position he was mocking. You came to defense of Velr, and seem to agree. "Even smart people can be scammed." The implication being, they are being scammed now, don't realize it, and thus should be forced off of what they have for their own good. Now that last bit was slight extrapolation, but it seems reasonable given my previous interaction with you.

My point is proven because my comment about being inept was a restatement of what was Velr's premise. Everything else I have said on this topic contradicts my statement on ineptitude, if you take everything seriously.

Read with the context in mind instead of having a knee-jerk response.


That is phenomenally unclear.

I think they're being scammed and may or may not realize it. They may not have much choice. That doesn't change the nature of the scam. Being scammed is not a sign of stupidity or ineptitude, however. So that's not a good way to mock the position, because I said the exact opposite.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
October 29 2013 18:40 GMT
#11577
On October 30 2013 03:23 Thomas Sowell wrote:
Price controls! If you don't like the price, just change it!

Let's just use our imaginations for a minute. Whenever I see huge inflated prices, the first thing I think is, "well, there is a real profit to be made undercutting those prices!" After all, the cost of keeping a patient in a room for a night should be nowhere near $760. I'm sure it could be done for less than half that cost.

But what would happen if I were to open my own hospital? Can you even imagine the avalanche of paper work and regulations and lawyers and health inspectors that would hail down upon me, either resulting in me shutting down completely or forcing me to massively raise my prices?

Of course we will be told that all of these regulations and controls and permits and certifications etc. etc. are for the public safety, but what it effectively creates are massive barriers to entry into the market, which is what keeps costs so high. That $68,000 bill buys the illusion of safety.

I've given people IV's before. It took a couple hours of training and about 5 minutes to administer. The solution itself is pretty cheap. You could give people IV's for a couple bucks a day in base cost. The other $1480 comes from where? Laws, regulations, lawsuits, permits, certifications, middle men... People will always point to the uninsured but that's been shown again and again to be a small percentage of the costs associated with health care.


http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/520441/a-tale-of-two-drugs/

Because of medical insurance, co-pay reductions, and expanded access programs for the uninsured, relatively few Americans pay more than a few thousand dollars per year for even the most expensive drugs. The primary customers in the United States are not patients or even individual physicians, although physicians can drive demand for a drug; rather, the customers are the government (through Medicare and Medicaid) and private insurance companies. And since the insurer or government is picking up the check, companies can and do set prices that few individuals could pay. In the jargon of economics, the demand for therapeutic drugs is “price inelastic”: increasing the price doesn’t reduce how much the drugs are used. Prices are set and raised according to what the market will bear, and the parties who actually pay the drug companies will meet whatever price is charged for an effective drug to which there is no alternative. And so in determining the price for a drug, companies ask themselves questions that have next to nothing to do with the drugs’ costs. “It is not a science,” the veteran drug maker and former Genzyme CEO Henri Termeer told me. “It is a feel.”
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 29 2013 18:49 GMT
#11578
I'd like to remind people of that wonderful expose in time in the past year or so about chargemaster rates in hospitals using costs that just make no sense at all.

Sowell; you should really read up more on the 1800s and all the bad things that happened then with capitalism; it sounds like you're unaware of them.

On spying, I came up with a nice sounding lie, pity they can't use it for cover, as it doesn't really fit perfectly:
"we were testing the security of their systems, and were preparing reports to send to them about their vulnerabilities and how to fix them."
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-29 18:53:33
October 29 2013 18:52 GMT
#11579
Don't worry zlefin; he's given people IV's before, therefore he is in a place of immense expertise when it comes to the cost implications of healthcare.

More to the point, I really wonder how much truth there is in Sebelius's blaming of contractors when it comes to the website's flaws. Is this yet another example of how our government's approach to contract work is atrociously stupid? Time will tell.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
October 29 2013 19:22 GMT
#11580
On October 30 2013 03:49 zlefin wrote:
I'd like to remind people of that wonderful expose in time in the past year or so about chargemaster rates in hospitals using costs that just make no sense at all.

Sowell; you should really read up more on the 1800s and all the bad things that happened then with capitalism; it sounds like you're unaware of them.

On spying, I came up with a nice sounding lie, pity they can't use it for cover, as it doesn't really fit perfectly:
"we were testing the security of their systems, and were preparing reports to send to them about their vulnerabilities and how to fix them."

There are always rules of engagement when doing testing.
Prev 1 577 578 579 580 581 10093 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 35m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 227
RuFF_SC2 122
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 5319
Rain 727
Leta 315
Mong 267
ggaemo 237
Icarus 10
Hm[arnc] 9
ajuk12(nOOB) 6
Dota 2
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 698
Other Games
tarik_tv10377
summit1g4470
WinterStarcraft540
NeuroSwarm114
Trikslyr61
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1178
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH362
• practicex 29
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki24
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV285
League of Legends
• Stunt522
Other Games
• Scarra1721
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5h 35m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
6h 35m
SC Evo League
7h 35m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
10h 35m
BSL Team Wars
14h 35m
Team Dewalt vs Team Bonyth
Afreeca Starleague
1d 5h
Sharp vs Ample
Larva vs Stork
Wardi Open
1d 6h
RotterdaM Event
1d 11h
Replay Cast
1d 19h
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
JyJ vs TY
Bisu vs Speed
WardiTV Summer Champion…
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Mini vs TBD
Soma vs sSak
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
BSL Team Wars
5 days
Team Hawk vs Team Dewalt
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
SC Evo League
6 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
6 days
[BSL 2025] Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-08-13
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLAN 3
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.