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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
United States41965 Posts
On October 25 2016 06:41 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 05:29 KwarK wrote:On October 25 2016 05:26 biology]major wrote: Lmao you guys are getting triggered real hard by those veritas videos. I don't feel that I am. Someone posts them, I explain that they're not real and that's pretty much it, isn't it? I don't see how it's any different from the Planned Parenthood videos. I don't get this, the DNC fired two people, and the Clinton campaign had to directly address the issue to the press. It has been covered by most media outlets as well. Reasonable person: "hmm this vid obviously has bias and an agenda" --> watches with skepticism Shills on TL --> "nope" Why the hell would the DNC pick a battle it doesn't need to? Whether or not they did anything wrong doesn't even begin to matter at this point, they're far ahead in the polls, two weeks from the election and just planning to coast it in. This is not the time to draw battle lines and refuse to give an inch to the crazies in case they want a mile. If someone accused anyone insignificant at the DNC of anything then at the very least they'd get suspended pending an inquiry scheduled for never because they are 110% in damage control mode.
I read the firing as pure damage control. They don't give a fuck if it's real or not because they know damn well that whether or not it's real doesn't make a difference in this election, that's not how 2016 works. What matters is whether or not we see headlines that read "the DNC is under fire tonight over its refusal to condemn Corrupty McCorruptface, the face of the latest corruption scandal". Defending the innocent is airtime that could be better used not talking about them at all, most of the country is sufficiently stupid to go "wow, they're spending a lot of effort trying to make it look like that person did nothing wrong, I wonder what they have to hide".
As for watching something biased with skepticism, that's not how it works. Skepticism is how you view an unknown until it proves itself to you. O'Keefe isn't an unknown, he's a known liar. I'm not skeptical about his content, I'm pretty happy with where I sit regarding it.
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Netherlands21351 Posts
On October 25 2016 07:03 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 06:56 Plansix wrote:
In further updates, Wikileaks appears to not understand the journalist for major news sites can't be bought with a couple free dinners. We try to educate folks that paying for dinner doesn't mean you are owed something afterwords, but wikileaks missed the memo apparently.
If they have anything more damning, I don't know if anyone will pay attention if they cry wolf to many more times. Amazing. Simply amazing. Someone please tell me why that Tweet by Wikileaks does not body slam any amount of credibility they may have had. This is exactly what I said Wikileaks is doing weeks ago. They post things as inflammatory tweets, knowing damn well they are extremely misleading and that people will just assume this is a really bad thing. Wikileaks had credibility?
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Didn't people used to like wikileaks for all those diplomatic cable they published that showed the Us in a bad light?
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On October 25 2016 06:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 06:43 IgnE wrote:On October 25 2016 06:41 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2016 06:35 Nevuk wrote:On October 25 2016 06:29 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2016 06:25 IgnE wrote:On October 25 2016 06:16 Plansix wrote: Folks who remember 2008-2010 know that the far left is the enemy of centrist democrats. They spent more time fighting each other, because the far left would rather pass something that will get thrown out by the Supreme Court than accomplish something. And the whole time the GOP quietly planned to take back the house in 2010, right in time for redistricting. what did the far left pass that got thrown out by the supreme court? The big debate of the ACA wasn’t if it would exist, but if it would be single payer or straight up state healthcare. The internal fight in the DNC over the ACA dragged out the process and prevent a lot of other issues from coming to the table. Most democrats I know bemoan that more was not accomplished during those two years because of the fight over the ACA, which barely made it pass the supreme court. This is a mischaracterization. The argument used by centrist democrats was that a single payer plan wouldn't get GOP votes. Well, guess what? The non-single payer plan got 0 GOP votes. The democrats folded like cheap suits in return for absolutely nothing. The only leftist I can recall who actually staked any political capital on single payer was Kucinich. Getting any health care reform passed that survived a Supreme Court challenge is a huge deal. And trying to pass a plan that they could get bipartisan support on was the right way to go, even if it didn’t pan out. They can’t control the GOP and that they held a party line vote. Those were the early days of the GOP’s “oppose everything forever” stance on the Obama administration, so it seemed like the right way to go at the time. And the DNC didn’t cave. Ted Kennedy died and they had to slam out the ACA to prevent it from becoming dead in the water. are you suggesting single payer would be unconstitutional? My opinion on if it is constitutional or not is irrelevant. I am not convinced that anything more than the ACA’s current design would have survived before the current justices on the court. The only reason is passed was because Roberts flipped and signed with the left leaning justices. Single payer might be an option if Clinton gets to appoint someone through a senate controlled by the democrats. But not in 2008.
this totally ignores the legal bases of the case which were varied and fragmented. it's not a monolithic political decision: "well this is just about the right amount of healthcare." i see no reason to think that a properly designed and implemented single payer system would have faced the same challenges. in fact there is a case to be made that single payer is more constitutional than the patchwork garbage of the aca.
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On October 25 2016 07:10 Sermokala wrote: Didn't people used to like wikileaks for all those diplomatic cable they published that showed the Us in a bad light?
I'm still fine with *what* wikileaks is leaking more or less, but the way they are leaking it seems really disingenuous.
It's not going for maximal impact because the stories get drowned by whatever Trump did today, the releases are overhyped, and it just seems really poorly handled. So the end result is it seems more like tampering with the election than a legitimate exposure of important information.
They would have been way better served just saying we're going to release each batch on these dates and do so without hyping them up or putting commentary around the email contents.
Or, for example, putting out better commentary. Like mentioning that a lot of people who used to blast wikileaks suddenly finds them great because of what they are leaking vs what they leaked before.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On October 25 2016 07:10 Sermokala wrote: Didn't people used to like wikileaks for all those diplomatic cable they published that showed the Us in a bad light? It's always been seen with some degree of disdain, but it's also sort of been mostly irrelevant until the election.
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On October 25 2016 05:27 Dan HH wrote:Speaking of investigative journalism, the Telegraph published this piece today about Great America PAC which offered to funnel a large donation from a fictive Chinese donor to Trump. + Show Spoiler [long] +Donald Trump’s presidential campaign is facing a fundraising scandal after a Telegraph investigation exposed how key supporters were prepared to accept illicit donations from foreign backers.
Senior figures involved with the Great America PAC, one of the leading "independent" groups organising television advertisements and grassroots support for the Republican nominee, sought to channel $2 million from a Chinese donor into the campaign to elect the billionaire despite laws prohibiting donations from foreigners.
In return, undercover reporters purporting to represent the fictitious donor were assured that he would obtain “influence” if Mr Trump made it to the White House.
Last week Eric Beach, the PAC’s co-chairman, confirmed to the reporters at an event in Las Vegas that their client's support would be "remembered" if Mr Trump became president.
The disclosure raises questions about the origins of money being ploughed into supporting Mr Trump’s candidacy.
The PAC “consultant” who brokered the deal proposed using as a conduit a type of organisation he admitted is seen as being responsible for the “’dark money’ in politics”.
The revelations also highlight the apparent desperation of Mr Trump's supporters to finance the final weeks of his campaign amid a series of controversies and polls showing him losing in key states.
Mr Trump once labelled Super PACs a “disaster” that have “total control of the candidates”, and has criticised Mrs Clinton for relying on outside groups.
Undercover reporters posing as consultants acting for a Chinese benefactor approached specific pro-Trump and pro-Clinton fundraisers and groups after receiving information that individuals were involved in hiding foreign donations.
Sources also said PACs, “independent” organisations that can raise unlimited sums of money to lobby for or against particular candidates, were being used to circumvent rules.
The pro-Clinton organisations did not respond to initial approaches. But earlier this month an undercover reporter spoke by telephone to Eric Beach, co-chairman of the pro-Trump Great America PAC, which has the backing of Rudy Giuliani, one of Mr Trump’s most senior advisers, as well as the billionaire's son Eric.
The reporter said a Chinese client wished to donate to the PAC to support Mr Trump's campaign.
Mr Beach appeared interested despite raising concerns about his nationality and saying he would need to know the donor’s identity.
He suggested the donation could be put through a social welfare organisation called a 501(c)(4) - or C4 - , which unlike a PAC is not subject to a blanket ban on receiving foreign money, and not required to name donors. He stressed in an email that "any path we recommend is legal".
The reporter then received an email from Jesse Benton, a senior figure at the PAC until being convicted in May in connection with buying a senator’s endorsement on a prior campaign. He said he was a “consultant” and that Mr Beach had not wanted a “paper trail” of contact. He and the PAC later denied that he had worked for it at all since May.
Mr Benton proposed channelling the donation through his own company to mask its origin. It would then be passed on to two C4s before being donated by them to the PAC, or simply used to fund projects the PAC had already planned.
Mr Benton said the $2 million, for which he would submit an invoice for “appearances” would “definitely allow us to spend two million more dollars on digital and television advertising for Trump.” The Chinese benefactor's generosity would be “whispered into Mr Trump’s ear.” He said he had previously helped US donors conceal donations.
Mr Beach then said at the Vegas event last Wednesday: "Trump knows that you know, people have stuck with him … I’m not gonna twist your arm or anything, I just think that there’s no way that this group, and you guys have been participating indirectly or directly, won’t be remembered."
Mr Benton denied any “unethical” behaviour. He claimed he spoke to the reporters after a “business referral” from Mr Beach and proposed a “public affairs contract” with his firm “having determined money could not go into a 501(c)4”.
Dan Backer, counsel to the PAC, denied that Mr Beach asked Mr Benton to act for him and said Mr Benton “has not had a role with the PAC since May and does not speak for it”. The "professional referral" for "Mr Benton's own benefit" was so that "Mr Benton could explore legal options for your reporters' alleged client".
He continued: “Mr Benton has not solicited any contributions to the PAC that I am aware of, nor has he been asked to do so.”
He suggested Mr Benton had simply engaged in “puffery and self-promotion”, adding that “the conduct of the PAC and Mr. Beach’s conduct was appropriate, ethical and legal at all times.”
Mr Backer added that "The PAC has never ... solicited or accepted contributions from a foreign national or entity" and said Mr Beach had been suggesting how "a US company with a foreign parent company could potentially engage in legal political activity".
Asked if Mr Trump's campaign was aware of the scheme suggested by Mr Benton, his spokeswoman said: " We publicly disavowed this group back in April. This is public via Federal Election Commission filings.
Taking to a podium in Colorado last week, Donald Trump resumed a line of attack he had long used against his opponent: “Her international donors control her every move”.
Yet fundraisers supporting his bid for the White House were in the process of finalising the details of a $2 million donation from a Chinese benefactor seeking unspecified future “influence” under a Trump presidency. Under US law it is illegal for a foreign national to make any contribution in connection with an election.
But when an undercover reporter telephoned Eric Beach, the co-chairman of the Great America PAC, one of the leading “independent” groups financing campaign work for Mr Trump, to convey his fictitious Chinese client’s desire to make such a donation, his approach did not appear unwelcome.
In an initial call on October 4 the reporter explained that the benefactor wanted to donate to support Mr Trump’s campaign, “but he’s not a US national.”
Mr Beach agreed that making such a donation to the PAC could be difficult. But he did, however, have a suggestion involving a 501(c)(4) – a tax-exempt “social welfare organisation” – which he described as a “non-disclose entity” through which the client could make a contribution for a “specific purpose”.
Mr Beach’s response, along with his later statements on the matter, appeared ambivalent for someone who was clearly aware of the ban on foreign nationals making donations in connection with US elections.
Despite warning about the need to know the origins of the money, he was already aware that the donor was a foreign national who would naturally be banned from donating for his stated purpose.
Political observers and campaign groups have raised concerns about 501(c)(4)s, labelling them “dark money” groups because, unlike PACs, they are not required to name donors.
A PAC with a “sister” 501(c)(4) could therefore encourage donors to give to that body. The 501(c)(4) could then contribute to the PAC, or simply spend the money on a project that the group would otherwise have funded.
That scheme was subsequently laid out to two reporters at a meeting in a New York hotel by Jesse Benton, a long-time Republican strategist, who emailed the reporter with the subject “From Eric Beach” and the opening line: “Eric Beach asked me to reach out”.
Mr Benton was a senior figure at the PAC until he was convicted in May in connection with buying a senator’s endorsement for Ron Paul’s presidential campaign in 2012.
At the meeting on October 13, he explained that Mr Beach, 38, needed to maintain a “deliberate disengagement”.
Mr Benton's proposal was for the Chinese client to pay his $2 million, via the reporters’ Singapore-based communications consultancy, to Mr Benton’s own public affairs firm, Titan Strategies LLC, in order to mask the fact that the money was coming from abroad.
He set out the scheme in writing in an email on October 5 in which he said he had “checked with our attorney, and there is no prohibition on what I propose”, although “he is giving one final review for full legal vetting.”
At the meeting more than a week later, he explained how he would direct the funds evenly to two 501(c)(4)s which could donate the money to the Great America PAC in their name, or spend it on activities the PAC would otherwise have funded. One of the organisations was Vision for America, which is run by Mr Beach.
“I’ll send money from my company to both,” Mr Benton said.
Mr Benton said: “I don’t know if you ever hear journalists wring their hands about ‘dark money’ in politics - they’re talking about 51(c)(4)s.”
He told the reporters: “There’s no prohibition against what we’re doing, but you could argue that the letter of the law says that it is originating from a foreign source and even though it can legally go into a 501(c)(4) then it shouldn’t be done”.
Discussing how the money would be spent on pro-Trump grassroots campaigning as well as television advertising, he warned: “You shouldn’t put any of this on paper.”
He suggested that the $2 million paid to his firm could be billed simply as “a large retainer” for consulting work. He then sent a $2 million invoice, for the sake of “appearances”, for his services providing “analysis of the American political and business landscape”.
In one of a series of telephone conversations over a two-week period, he explained that the work, which “doesn’t cost any money” apart from a “couple hours of my time” would be reports on the spending of the 501(c)(4)s and PAC.
“It would be one more way … for your client to have an assurance that quality work’s being done with his money. You know, it would give you a window into what the c4s and the super PAC are doing.”
And the fictitious Chinese benefactor’s generosity would not go unrewarded should the donor a require a line of communication to Mr Trump if he became president.
“We can have that whispered into Mr Trump’s ear whenever your client feels it’s appropriate,” he said. After a telephone conversation with Mr Beach, Mr Benton said that the PAC wished to invite the reporters to a party the group was hosting in Vegas on October 19, the night of the final presidential debate.
He later passed on a briefing on the event prepared by Mr Beach. Mr Benton warned that he would have to stay away from Vegas because “everything that we’re doing is legal by the book but there’s perceptions and some grey areas.”
Mr Beach also needed to be kept “deliberately ignorant” of the “exact arrangements”. But at the event the PAC's co-chairman clearly understood their client’s apparent request for an assurance that Mr Trump would remember his contribution.
“One thing he has to understand is, what you guys have to understand is: you can get credit, but don’t overdo it with the influence,” he said. The particular sticking point was the highly discreet method by which the client would be donating.
“I would just manage your expectations, say: ‘you’re going to get credit but your ‘non-disclosed’ [donation] is not disclosed. Not just for your benefit, but for everyone’s benefit.’”
Then Mr Beach’s ambivalence, or possibly confusion, about the proposal appeared to return. “I would never let you guys give to the PAC, to give to the C4, because that’s illegal,” he added. “See the C4 is technically not illegal, but it’s not – it’s just not the best way to go.”
Lawrence Noble, who was general counsel at the US Federal Election Commission for 13 years and is now at the Campaign Legal Centre, a DC-based advocacy group, said: "If there is evidence that representatives of a super PAC were soliciting or knowingly accepting foreign national money and helping arrange for it to get into the super PAC through a 501(c)(4) organisation, then it should be investigated by the FEC and by the Department of Justice as a criminal violation."
Mr Benton denied any “unethical” behaviour and said he was not “an agent of Great America PAC”, while Dan Backer, counsel to the PAC said Mr Benton “has not had a role with the PAC since May and does not speak for it”. Mr Backer added that “the conduct of the PAC and Mr. Beach’s conduct was appropriate, ethical and legal at all times.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/24/exclusive-investigation-donald-trump-faces-foreign-donor-fundrai/
This is everything the Veritas videos wanted to show but couldn't.
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I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the subject, to I will defer to the attorneys in the thread. I've always single payer was not more likely to survive a challenge before the current court.
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Most of the legal arguments against the ACA, both those already conceived of and those currently being worked on by Republicans, rely on the overly complicated state-federal framework as a means of attack (this was the general thrust of plaintiff's case in King v. Burwell relative to the definition of "such exchanges"). Given that the Roberts Court upheld the individual mandate as a justified exercise of Congress' taxing power, it is difficult to imagine how a far more simple single-payer system, perhaps one that mirrors Medicare, would be open to legal attack like the ACA.
Personally, I'm far more interested in reversing the Supreme Court's Medicaid expansion holding in NFIB v. Sibelius, and had the ACA been a single payer system that did not implicate the state/federal balance so strongly, things may have turned out differently.
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(ianal)
given that medicare is allowed to exist, single payer would likely be constitutional. but the answer is that it would depend on how it was implemented, i guess. its the individual mandate that was iffy thought it did survive mostly intact.
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You're four pages late on that video mate.
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Single payer, so long as it didn't in any way prohibit alternate healthcare, would probably be entirely constitutional. The problems with ACA were in the mandate and various restrictions on the state. The federal gov't clearly has the general power to tax (within certain limitations), and there's no prohibition on them providing health care. So if all they do is say we're providing this health care for free to anyone who wants it, and the tax rates are now X%, that's clearly constitutional.
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On October 25 2016 07:24 Plansix wrote: I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the subject, to I will defer to the attorneys in the thread. I've always single payer was not more likely to survive a challenge before the current court.
so is there something else or were you just making up stories about 2008-2010 to vent?
you know maybe we should be criticizing the centrist democrats for being traitors bought by the insurance industry who didnt work hard enough to come over to the side of the radical leftists trying to save America? you know what they say, "good is the enemy of great"
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WASHINGTON ― Some Republicans are running so far away from their party’s nominee that they are threatening to sue TV stations for running ads that suggest they support Donald Trump.
Just two weeks before Election Day, five Republicans ― Reps. Bob Dold (R-Ill.), Mike Coffman (R-Colo.), David Jolly (R-Fla.), John Katko (R-N.Y.) and Brian Fitzpatrick, a Pennsylvania Republican running for an open seat that’s currently occupied by his brother ― contend that certain commercials paid for by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee provide false or misleading information by connecting them to the GOP nominee.
Trump is so terrible, these Republicans are essentially arguing, that tying them to him amounts to defamation.
All five Republicans have, at some point, said they don’t support Trump. And all five have a bit of a case: The DCCC ads do use some creativity to tie them to Trump.
It’s somewhat standard practice for candidates to threaten TV stations with legal action in an effort to get ads pulled. The Federal Communications Commission has said that stations have some legal responsibility ― when dealing with ads from independent groups ― to eliminate ads with “false, misleading, or deceptive” content. But legal action is rare. Mostly, candidates count on TV stations to take down such ads.
The DCCC says none of the stations pulled the spots, though some ads’ runs have already ended.
Either way, the ads all leave an impression that the candidate they’re targeting supports Trump, even when the candidate himself has said otherwise. Whether that’s misleading enough for legal action is someone else’s call.
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On October 25 2016 07:56 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 07:24 Plansix wrote: I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the subject, to I will defer to the attorneys in the thread. I've always single payer was not more likely to survive a challenge before the current court. so is there something else or were you just making up stories about 2008-2010 to vent? you know maybe we should be criticizing the centrist democrats for being traitors bought by the insurance industry who didnt work hard enough to come over to the side of the radical leftists trying to save America? you know what they say, "good is the enemy of great" In 2008-2010 I worked with a number of attorneys that were members of the democratic party. And I worked with many of the same attorneys during the two critical rulings for the ACA. At that time, everyone I talked to about the subject was of a similar opinion that single payer a single payer system combined with a mandate to buy healthcare may not survive a supreme court challenge and just pushing for the mandate alone was a better route for health care reform. Obviously, legal thinking on the subject has evolved since then. And I won't claim their arguments from then as my own, but they did inform my view on the subject. The ACA should have been something to work through, pass and move on to other issues, rather than the knock down drag out that ended when Ted Kennedy death forcing their hands. They could have taken that thing right up until the 2010 election or maybe never gotten it passed without that.
As I said before, I'll differ the attorneys in the thread to discuss the likely hood of a single payer plan surviving the supreme court, as we know a lot more about the courts views on the subject at this time.
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sounds like some blue dog democrat rationalization
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Pragmatism isn't sexy and won't please your base, but it is the best chance for lasting change. Progress is measured in generations, not in massive leaps.
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On October 25 2016 07:12 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 06:48 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2016 06:43 IgnE wrote:On October 25 2016 06:41 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2016 06:35 Nevuk wrote:On October 25 2016 06:29 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2016 06:25 IgnE wrote:On October 25 2016 06:16 Plansix wrote: Folks who remember 2008-2010 know that the far left is the enemy of centrist democrats. They spent more time fighting each other, because the far left would rather pass something that will get thrown out by the Supreme Court than accomplish something. And the whole time the GOP quietly planned to take back the house in 2010, right in time for redistricting. what did the far left pass that got thrown out by the supreme court? The big debate of the ACA wasn’t if it would exist, but if it would be single payer or straight up state healthcare. The internal fight in the DNC over the ACA dragged out the process and prevent a lot of other issues from coming to the table. Most democrats I know bemoan that more was not accomplished during those two years because of the fight over the ACA, which barely made it pass the supreme court. This is a mischaracterization. The argument used by centrist democrats was that a single payer plan wouldn't get GOP votes. Well, guess what? The non-single payer plan got 0 GOP votes. The democrats folded like cheap suits in return for absolutely nothing. The only leftist I can recall who actually staked any political capital on single payer was Kucinich. Getting any health care reform passed that survived a Supreme Court challenge is a huge deal. And trying to pass a plan that they could get bipartisan support on was the right way to go, even if it didn’t pan out. They can’t control the GOP and that they held a party line vote. Those were the early days of the GOP’s “oppose everything forever” stance on the Obama administration, so it seemed like the right way to go at the time. And the DNC didn’t cave. Ted Kennedy died and they had to slam out the ACA to prevent it from becoming dead in the water. are you suggesting single payer would be unconstitutional? My opinion on if it is constitutional or not is irrelevant. I am not convinced that anything more than the ACA’s current design would have survived before the current justices on the court. The only reason is passed was because Roberts flipped and signed with the left leaning justices. Single payer might be an option if Clinton gets to appoint someone through a senate controlled by the democrats. But not in 2008. this totally ignores the legal bases of the case which were varied and fragmented. it's not a monolithic political decision: "well this is just about the right amount of healthcare." i see no reason to think that a properly designed and implemented single payer system would have faced the same challenges. in fact there is a case to be made that single payer is more constitutional than the patchwork garbage of the aca.
I mean, the weird thing about the court's decision on the ACA (which made it quite unexpected, or at least not expected when the law was being written) is that the parts that got struck down-the Medicaid expansion-had pretty much been standard of practice for making any changes to Medicaid, and similar tactics had been used for upping the drinking age and the like. Just odd.
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