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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
United States43777 Posts
On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit?
I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse.
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On October 20 2016 03:56 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit? I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse.
It's more of a shrine to your own presidency than a library.
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I have a feeling that GH is arguing from the perspective that the Clinton Foundation is funding this library and Bill's penthouse suite from charity donations.
But the funding for the construction and some operations should be private donations for that library made to a non-profit (which, in this case, is the Clinton Foundation), and continued operations should be from library revenue (I'm guessing this is a pay-access place?) and NARA.
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On October 20 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:56 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit? I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse. It's more of a shrine to your own presidency than a library.
Do people come to worship Bill? Does it not have books and library stuff in it?
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United States43777 Posts
On October 20 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:56 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit? I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse. It's more of a shrine to your own presidency than a library.
Okay, let's do this adventure again. Please provide sources for that claim.
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On October 20 2016 04:01 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:56 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit? I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse. It's more of a shrine to your own presidency than a library. Okay, let's do this adventure again. Please provide sources for that claim.
To be fair, these things do sound like self-aggrandizing shrines.
But Presidents have been encouraged to get funding and build these things since 1955, so apparently at some point a large number of people thought there was a point to them?
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United States43777 Posts
On October 20 2016 04:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 04:01 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:56 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit? I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse. It's more of a shrine to your own presidency than a library. Okay, let's do this adventure again. Please provide sources for that claim. To be fair, these things do sound like self-aggrandizing shrines. But Presidents have been encouraged to get funding and build these things since 1955, so apparently at some point a large number of people thought there was a point to them?
Yeah but if it has documents and other primary records in it which people can come in and see then it seems to me like it'd be a library. But I expect GH will tell me that's naive.
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On October 20 2016 03:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:35 Plansix wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:27 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:25 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Now that we passed the "it's all a lie" phase I expect "It's not a big deal, it's normal", followed quickly by "But compare that to Trump", and maybe even find a way to blame Russia.
Of course none of that would matter to my original point (that they personally benefit from the charity), but they have already reconstructed in their minds what I was actually saying and will probably keep arguing against that imaginary opponent. On October 20 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
And seriously GH if the best you can come up with is that Clinton has an apartment he uses a couple times a month at most that's pretty trivial. CEO's of most large orgs have a pretty cushy office. It's also a not uncommon practice to turn it into a living space. On October 20 2016 03:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:
[quote]
From the Wikipedia article, there is indeed a 2000 sq ft executive apartment at the top floor of this "Library".
Also LOL, I had no idea Presidents building libraries to themselves was a thing. Clinton's is the 17th, apparently. And the 3rd to have an apartment, after Reagan and Bush Jr.
But aside from that, the rest is typical reddit fluff. All of these libraries are built by private donations for the purpose of building these libraries. It did go through the Clinton Foundation, but when you have an existing framework for taking donations, why not (unless there's some weird tax laws or something regarding this)? The fundraising to build this was expressly for building the library, so it's not like they were siphoning money from somewhere else.
So basically, apparently it's a thing for ex-Presidents to ask people to donate money to build a library dedicated to themselves, and it's becoming a trend for them to build private apartments and offices in them. This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps. No, I think we're still trying to figure out where the point is? Presidents are actually encouraged to get these libraries built and funded, by the way: https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/about/faqs.htmlAlso: + Show Spoiler +Funding
How is a Presidential Library paid for and funded?
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
Some Libraries have also received construction and development funding from state and/or local governments.
The Library is then transferred to the Federal government and operated and maintained by NARA through its congressionally appropriated operating budget.
Some staff and programs at Presidential Libraries are paid for with funds from associated private foundations organized to fund the construction of the Library. These private foundations also provide continuing support for Library programs and special events, such as conferences and exhibitions.
What is the role of a Presidential Library foundation?
Presidential Libraries carry out a mandated program to preserve, process, and make available their archival holdings. As part of providing access, the Libraries and Museums provide outreach and educational programs.
NARA does not have sufficient resources to provide the broadest spectrum of innovative and insightful public, education, and information programs in each Library. Foundation support is critical to the development of core public programming for a Presidential Library.
Presidential Libraries and Museums, their web sites, and the scholarship they promote benefit in significant ways from private organizations established to support such programs.
In several cases, these organizations evolved from bodies chartered to raise money and construct the original Library building. In other instances, these organizations were formed after the dedication of the Library by friends of the President.
Just as the origin and development of these organizations have varied, their formation and operation take a number of forms. Some of the organizations encourage public participation through payment of membership fees. Others are non-membership charitable foundations and corporations. Several seek to support their activities solely through private contributions. Some foundations are run by paid staff, others are voluntary.
Also, it should be noted that, starting with the George Bush Library, all future Presidential Library foundations must provide an endowment to NARA to help offset facility operating expenses. This endowment is presented to NARA and is used by the government to support facility maintenance needs.
Why should taxpayers support Presidential Libraries? Are taxpayer dollars being used to fund these programs instead of taking care of important government records?
NARA’s mission is to serve American democracy by safeguarding and preserving the records of our Government, ensuring that the people can discover, use, and learn from this documentary heritage. We ensure continuing access to the essential documentation of the rights of American citizens and the actions of their government. We support democracy, promote civic education, and facilitate historical understanding of our national experience.
Presidential Libraries support NARA’s mission by preserving and providing access to materials from a crucial part of our government as well as materials from individuals who have played key roles in our government. The papers and records created by, for, or about Presidents, Vice Presidents, and their administrations document the key decisions, policy and activities of the institution of the Presidency - the highest policy level of government. The documents and artifacts held by the Presidential Libraries not only inform society about the President as an individual and about his term in office, but also provide insights into the American experience.
By providing access to these holdings through our research rooms, our exhibits, and online we attempt to support NARA’s mission for the broadest audience possible. In our efforts to fulfill this mission we draw on the many partnerships formed between NARA and the Presidential Library foundations. As a result, many aspects of museum and public programs are, in fact, supported by private funds, although they are overseen by government professionals including curators, educators, and archivists. Presuming you jumped in half way, otherwise you and Barrin would understand that it being common has 0 bearing on my original point. Yes. Your original point. What is it? That the foundation is sometimes used for personal benefit. That it's so common is part of the problem. That rather than be critical of it when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, they'd rather make it seem like part of the natural order of things to defend their goddess. You do know that people who run charities get paid, right? Sometimes its six figures depending on the charity. And those CEO’s of charities also help raise money for said charity. Yes I'm fully aware. I've done work for some major charities, and did a stint in student government organizing charity work on campus. Corruption was part of the learning process. It started small, with student government using the "government" computers for homework, but by the end of the year the stuff we got to give to students was always picked over first by the members and their friends before it even got presented for the students who paid for it. My work with charities was similar, the biggest lesson I learned is that there are a lot of people busting their asses (usually for free) to make things actually happen and a handful of people siphoning resources from the cause to pay salaries that are basically justified as essentially a percentage of funds raised (though they usually claim other responsibilities often handled by others). To put into perspective, the community college government I was on has one of the biggest budgets in the country. At one point we took a $25k vacation team building retreat where we literally argued over whether we would do anything work related while there or not. We decided on a 1-hr brainstorming task, and that was it for the week. Someone told on us, there was an "investigation" and we were cleared. What we've seen this election is just those politicians in their final form.
Wait--so your argument against Bill is that you yourself stole $25,000 so obviously Bill should be worse than you?
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Presidential libraries can be cool, to be fair. The Reagan Library in Simi Valley, CA is really cool, they even have Air Force One.
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On October 20 2016 04:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 04:01 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:56 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit? I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse. It's more of a shrine to your own presidency than a library. Okay, let's do this adventure again. Please provide sources for that claim. To be fair, these things do sound like self-aggrandizing shrines. But Presidents have been encouraged to get funding and build these things since 1955, so apparently at some point a large number of people thought there was a point to them?
Presidential monuments are a thing, but not all presidents get them due to popularity issues. Forcing them to build their own monument would look vain, so instead they're asked to make a library with their name on it because at least that's "practical."
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On October 20 2016 04:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:56 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit? I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse. It's more of a shrine to your own presidency than a library. Do people come to worship Bill? Does it not have books and library stuff in it?
If anything, it would be a museum.
If you went there to do research on anything other than Bill Clinton's presidency you'd be sorely lacking for resources. I mean you guys didn't know there was a 2 bedroom penthouse in it, so I guess I'm not surprised you're not familiar with the rest of it's contents.
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On October 20 2016 04:06 Introvert wrote:
Presidential libraries can be cool, to be fair. The Reagan Library in Simi Valley, CA is really cool, they even have Air Force One.
I have always heard they are a boon to any community that has them and are well funded to provide services to people who wouldn’t normally have access to them.
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On October 20 2016 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 04:01 Plansix wrote:On October 20 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:56 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit? I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse. It's more of a shrine to your own presidency than a library. Do people come to worship Bill? Does it not have books and library stuff in it? If anything, it would be a museum. If you went there to do research on anything other than Bill Clinton's presidency you'd be sorely lacking for resources. I mean you guys didn't know there was a 2 bedroom penthouse in it, so I guess I'm not surprised you're not familiar with the rest of it's contents.
Have you gone to the library to confirm this?
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United States43777 Posts
On October 20 2016 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 04:01 Plansix wrote:On October 20 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:56 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit? I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse. It's more of a shrine to your own presidency than a library. Do people come to worship Bill? Does it not have books and library stuff in it? If anything, it would be a museum. If you went there to do research on anything other than Bill Clinton's presidency you'd be sorely lacking for resources. I mean you guys didn't know there was a 2 bedroom penthouse in it, so I guess I'm not surprised you're not familiar with the rest of it's contents.
I feel like the Bill Clinton presidency is still a pretty wide topic. I mean we're talking 8 years of administration of the entire nation. There's got to be a fair amount of archived paper from that.
Also sources for what goes on at the library that shouldn't? Or what should go on but doesn't which makes it not a library?
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On October 20 2016 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 04:01 Plansix wrote:On October 20 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:56 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit? I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse. It's more of a shrine to your own presidency than a library. Do people come to worship Bill? Does it not have books and library stuff in it? If anything, it would be a museum. If you went there to do research on anything other than Bill Clinton's presidency you'd be sorely lacking for resources. I mean you guys didn't know there was a 2 bedroom penthouse in it, so I guess I'm not surprised you're not familiar with the rest of it's contents.
How is a penthouse in a building dedicated to you corruption? And more specifically--how does that affect the oval office? Can't trust Hillary because her husband has some place he can stay at other than one of his many properties? How dare a former President enjoy spending time at a library?
Is that your corruption charge? That a woman's husband acting as we expect him to act somehow shows that she will... what does it show really?
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On October 20 2016 04:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:35 Plansix wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:27 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:25 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps. No, I think we're still trying to figure out where the point is? Presidents are actually encouraged to get these libraries built and funded, by the way: https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/about/faqs.htmlAlso: + Show Spoiler +Funding
How is a Presidential Library paid for and funded?
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
Some Libraries have also received construction and development funding from state and/or local governments.
The Library is then transferred to the Federal government and operated and maintained by NARA through its congressionally appropriated operating budget.
Some staff and programs at Presidential Libraries are paid for with funds from associated private foundations organized to fund the construction of the Library. These private foundations also provide continuing support for Library programs and special events, such as conferences and exhibitions.
What is the role of a Presidential Library foundation?
Presidential Libraries carry out a mandated program to preserve, process, and make available their archival holdings. As part of providing access, the Libraries and Museums provide outreach and educational programs.
NARA does not have sufficient resources to provide the broadest spectrum of innovative and insightful public, education, and information programs in each Library. Foundation support is critical to the development of core public programming for a Presidential Library.
Presidential Libraries and Museums, their web sites, and the scholarship they promote benefit in significant ways from private organizations established to support such programs.
In several cases, these organizations evolved from bodies chartered to raise money and construct the original Library building. In other instances, these organizations were formed after the dedication of the Library by friends of the President.
Just as the origin and development of these organizations have varied, their formation and operation take a number of forms. Some of the organizations encourage public participation through payment of membership fees. Others are non-membership charitable foundations and corporations. Several seek to support their activities solely through private contributions. Some foundations are run by paid staff, others are voluntary.
Also, it should be noted that, starting with the George Bush Library, all future Presidential Library foundations must provide an endowment to NARA to help offset facility operating expenses. This endowment is presented to NARA and is used by the government to support facility maintenance needs.
Why should taxpayers support Presidential Libraries? Are taxpayer dollars being used to fund these programs instead of taking care of important government records?
NARA’s mission is to serve American democracy by safeguarding and preserving the records of our Government, ensuring that the people can discover, use, and learn from this documentary heritage. We ensure continuing access to the essential documentation of the rights of American citizens and the actions of their government. We support democracy, promote civic education, and facilitate historical understanding of our national experience.
Presidential Libraries support NARA’s mission by preserving and providing access to materials from a crucial part of our government as well as materials from individuals who have played key roles in our government. The papers and records created by, for, or about Presidents, Vice Presidents, and their administrations document the key decisions, policy and activities of the institution of the Presidency - the highest policy level of government. The documents and artifacts held by the Presidential Libraries not only inform society about the President as an individual and about his term in office, but also provide insights into the American experience.
By providing access to these holdings through our research rooms, our exhibits, and online we attempt to support NARA’s mission for the broadest audience possible. In our efforts to fulfill this mission we draw on the many partnerships formed between NARA and the Presidential Library foundations. As a result, many aspects of museum and public programs are, in fact, supported by private funds, although they are overseen by government professionals including curators, educators, and archivists. Presuming you jumped in half way, otherwise you and Barrin would understand that it being common has 0 bearing on my original point. Yes. Your original point. What is it? That the foundation is sometimes used for personal benefit. That it's so common is part of the problem. That rather than be critical of it when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, they'd rather make it seem like part of the natural order of things to defend their goddess. You do know that people who run charities get paid, right? Sometimes its six figures depending on the charity. And those CEO’s of charities also help raise money for said charity. Yes I'm fully aware. I've done work for some major charities, and did a stint in student government organizing charity work on campus. Corruption was part of the learning process. It started small, with student government using the "government" computers for homework, but by the end of the year the stuff we got to give to students was always picked over first by the members and their friends before it even got presented for the students who paid for it. My work with charities was similar, the biggest lesson I learned is that there are a lot of people busting their asses (usually for free) to make things actually happen and a handful of people siphoning resources from the cause to pay salaries that are basically justified as essentially a percentage of funds raised (though they usually claim other responsibilities often handled by others). To put into perspective, the community college government I was on has one of the biggest budgets in the country. At one point we took a $25k vacation team building retreat where we literally argued over whether we would do anything work related while there or not. We decided on a 1-hr brainstorming task, and that was it for the week. Someone told on us, there was an "investigation" and we were cleared. What we've seen this election is just those politicians in their final form. Wait--so your argument against Bill is that you yourself stole $25,000 so obviously Bill should be worse than you?
According to the investigation we didn't steal anything. FWIW I was the irritating black guy that they couldn't understand why I didn't want to steal stuff with them (Mormans lol).
I also mentioned that one of the younger Mormon kids shared a sleeping bag with our staff adviser. shockingly nothing came of that either.
To use your words, I'm sure that if Bill or Hillary was as against it as I was, we'd hear much more out of them regarding their own shortcomings.
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On October 20 2016 04:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 04:01 Plansix wrote:On October 20 2016 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:56 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 03:44 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
...when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, ... Yeah, that is lame. Albeit probably just good business sense according to Trump. Who [would?] kinda have a point; I'd sooner attack the system that allows it in the first place. Maybe making charitable donations to charities that you help run should have no tax benefit? I'm still not convinced you come out ahead compared to just paying the tax if you have to build a library around the penthouse to justify it. Sure, you save 39% on the amount donated but you still come out behind if the library built to camouflage your tax dodge penthouse costs as much as the penthouse. It's more of a shrine to your own presidency than a library. Do people come to worship Bill? Does it not have books and library stuff in it? If anything, it would be a museum. If you went there to do research on anything other than Bill Clinton's presidency you'd be sorely lacking for resources. I mean you guys didn't know there was a 2 bedroom penthouse in it, so I guess I'm not surprised you're not familiar with the rest of it's contents. Have you gone to the library to confirm this?
Gaslight supreme, with that I'm out.
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On October 20 2016 04:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 04:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:35 Plansix wrote:On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:27 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:25 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps. No, I think we're still trying to figure out where the point is? Presidents are actually encouraged to get these libraries built and funded, by the way: https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/about/faqs.htmlAlso: + Show Spoiler +Funding
How is a Presidential Library paid for and funded?
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
Some Libraries have also received construction and development funding from state and/or local governments.
The Library is then transferred to the Federal government and operated and maintained by NARA through its congressionally appropriated operating budget.
Some staff and programs at Presidential Libraries are paid for with funds from associated private foundations organized to fund the construction of the Library. These private foundations also provide continuing support for Library programs and special events, such as conferences and exhibitions.
What is the role of a Presidential Library foundation?
Presidential Libraries carry out a mandated program to preserve, process, and make available their archival holdings. As part of providing access, the Libraries and Museums provide outreach and educational programs.
NARA does not have sufficient resources to provide the broadest spectrum of innovative and insightful public, education, and information programs in each Library. Foundation support is critical to the development of core public programming for a Presidential Library.
Presidential Libraries and Museums, their web sites, and the scholarship they promote benefit in significant ways from private organizations established to support such programs.
In several cases, these organizations evolved from bodies chartered to raise money and construct the original Library building. In other instances, these organizations were formed after the dedication of the Library by friends of the President.
Just as the origin and development of these organizations have varied, their formation and operation take a number of forms. Some of the organizations encourage public participation through payment of membership fees. Others are non-membership charitable foundations and corporations. Several seek to support their activities solely through private contributions. Some foundations are run by paid staff, others are voluntary.
Also, it should be noted that, starting with the George Bush Library, all future Presidential Library foundations must provide an endowment to NARA to help offset facility operating expenses. This endowment is presented to NARA and is used by the government to support facility maintenance needs.
Why should taxpayers support Presidential Libraries? Are taxpayer dollars being used to fund these programs instead of taking care of important government records?
NARA’s mission is to serve American democracy by safeguarding and preserving the records of our Government, ensuring that the people can discover, use, and learn from this documentary heritage. We ensure continuing access to the essential documentation of the rights of American citizens and the actions of their government. We support democracy, promote civic education, and facilitate historical understanding of our national experience.
Presidential Libraries support NARA’s mission by preserving and providing access to materials from a crucial part of our government as well as materials from individuals who have played key roles in our government. The papers and records created by, for, or about Presidents, Vice Presidents, and their administrations document the key decisions, policy and activities of the institution of the Presidency - the highest policy level of government. The documents and artifacts held by the Presidential Libraries not only inform society about the President as an individual and about his term in office, but also provide insights into the American experience.
By providing access to these holdings through our research rooms, our exhibits, and online we attempt to support NARA’s mission for the broadest audience possible. In our efforts to fulfill this mission we draw on the many partnerships formed between NARA and the Presidential Library foundations. As a result, many aspects of museum and public programs are, in fact, supported by private funds, although they are overseen by government professionals including curators, educators, and archivists. Presuming you jumped in half way, otherwise you and Barrin would understand that it being common has 0 bearing on my original point. Yes. Your original point. What is it? That the foundation is sometimes used for personal benefit. That it's so common is part of the problem. That rather than be critical of it when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, they'd rather make it seem like part of the natural order of things to defend their goddess. You do know that people who run charities get paid, right? Sometimes its six figures depending on the charity. And those CEO’s of charities also help raise money for said charity. Yes I'm fully aware. I've done work for some major charities, and did a stint in student government organizing charity work on campus. Corruption was part of the learning process. It started small, with student government using the "government" computers for homework, but by the end of the year the stuff we got to give to students was always picked over first by the members and their friends before it even got presented for the students who paid for it. My work with charities was similar, the biggest lesson I learned is that there are a lot of people busting their asses (usually for free) to make things actually happen and a handful of people siphoning resources from the cause to pay salaries that are basically justified as essentially a percentage of funds raised (though they usually claim other responsibilities often handled by others). To put into perspective, the community college government I was on has one of the biggest budgets in the country. At one point we took a $25k vacation team building retreat where we literally argued over whether we would do anything work related while there or not. We decided on a 1-hr brainstorming task, and that was it for the week. Someone told on us, there was an "investigation" and we were cleared. What we've seen this election is just those politicians in their final form. Wait--so your argument against Bill is that you yourself stole $25,000 so obviously Bill should be worse than you? According to the investigation we didn't steal anything. FWIW I was the irritating black guy that they couldn't understand why I didn't want to steal stuff with them (Mormans lol). I also mentioned that one of the younger Mormon kids shared a sleeping bag with our staff adviser. shockingly nothing came of that either. To use your words, I'm sure that if Bill or Hillary was as against it as I was, we'd hear much more out of them regarding their own shortcomings.
Wait, since there's no evidence you stole 25k you didn't steal, and since there's no evidence Bill stole something that means he stole it--is that your line of logic?
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