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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On October 20 2016 03:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:01 Plansix wrote:On October 20 2016 02:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:54 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:43 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:14 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Bruh, I know it's fun to imagineer opponents but my comment on the penthouse wasn't some secret corruption lair, just a personal benefit maintained by his charity.
That people want to push the point that it's absurd to suggest that perhaps he doesn't only do official charity business in a penthouse he stays at frequently, is their own feigned naivety.
But that has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of wikileaks documents. Out of curiousity, where is this penthouse? Where did you hear about it? Can you link to an article referencing it? I know you keep saying I'm feigning naivety for not believing that Bill Clinton keeps a secret penthouse in his library for personal use outside of his normal library functions but I'm really not. I just haven't yet seen all the things you have seen that led you to that conclusion. Mr. Leopoulos says Mr. Clinton “loved” his old job. “If he could be president again tomorrow, he would be.”
No doubt one of Mr. Clinton’s favorite exhibits is the exact replica of the Oval Office, meticulously cloned by Little Rock interior designer Kaki Hockersmith. Miss Hockersmith, who decorated the real Oval Office for Mr. Clinton, even grew the ivy on the fireplace from a cutting of the plant in the actual White House.
The fake Oval Office is where Mr. Clinton recently taped a television commercial with former President George Bush to raise money for tsunami relief.
Mr. Clinton, who plans to overnight at the penthouse whenever he has a speaking engagement in town, invited Mr. Leopoulos and his wife, as well as his first high-school date, Mauria Aspell, and her husband over the other night for a game of hearts. SourceWere you genuinely unaware of it's existence? Yes, I had not yet seen any evidence that a penthouse existed other than you saying I was naive for asking you for evidence that it existed. I did keep asking you but you just kept calling me naive. Incidentally when I googled looking for it (I searched: clinton presidential library executive suite penthouse) there were only tabloids and explicitly conservative sources reporting on it. This is a pretty representative example http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/inside-bill-clintons-presidential-library-playboy-pad/I'm still pretty skeptical honestly. jfc... I'm hoping this was post lag where you didn't see another source. Now we know the best way to get Democrats to doubt a fact is to put it in right wing tabloids. So an apartment in the library complex for the Clinton family exists. Please show a source for the claim that they're using it for corrupt purposes. I'm claiming that people who think it's only used for charity business (what it's for according to tax purposes) are being intentionally naive. I could link the right-wing tabloids with people making claims, but I know anything short of a conviction would be inadequate evidence anyway. Based on the lies they've already told, the behavior displayed in the white house by Bill, and the frequency that he is being reported as being there, brings me to the conclusion that it's highly unlikely he's better behaved in his private penthouse than he was in the white house. I can't demand people come to that conclusion without more evidence, but it doesn't make it a baseless assumption either. So like my case above, this is based on pure speculation because you don’t like Bill Clinton? No, it has nothing to do with whether I like him or not, just his past behavior can be indicative of his future/currrent behavior. But its pure speculation? Unless you have come creditable source on the subject that we are to aware of.
I mean inviting ex girlfriends to play cards doesn't sound like official business to me, but I'm sure quotes from his longtime friend are just made up.
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I believe it's actually a tabloid that you're reading, not one of the other two.
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On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:33 WhiteDog wrote:
Our dear GH is totally right. Now that we passed the "it's all a lie" phase I expect "It's not a big deal, it's normal", followed quickly by "But compare that to Trump", and maybe even find a way to blame Russia. Of course none of that would matter to my original point (that they personally benefit from the charity), but they have already reconstructed in their minds what I was actually saying and will probably keep arguing against that imaginary opponent. On October 20 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
And seriously GH if the best you can come up with is that Clinton has an apartment he uses a couple times a month at most that's pretty trivial. CEO's of most large orgs have a pretty cushy office. It's also a not uncommon practice to turn it into a living space. On October 20 2016 03:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 02:43 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:14 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:06 Evotroid wrote:On October 20 2016 02:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 01:59 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
That is the question everyone should ask themselves. Well they say 0, and I've seen 0 evidence any have been. So I'm leaning toward 0. I don't know if it is actually this lost on you, but reading that, I bet Bill would laugh off his ass in his secret corruption library lounge where he corrupts stuff...... Bruh, I know it's fun to imagineer opponents but my comment on the penthouse wasn't some secret corruption lair, just a personal benefit maintained by his charity. That people want to push the point that it's absurd to suggest that perhaps he doesn't only do official charity business in a penthouse he stays at frequently, is their own feigned naivety. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of wikileaks documents. Out of curiousity, where is this penthouse? Where did you hear about it? Can you link to an article referencing it? I know you keep saying I'm feigning naivety for not believing that Bill Clinton keeps a secret penthouse in his library for personal use outside of his normal library functions but I'm really not. I just haven't yet seen all the things you have seen that led you to that conclusion. Mr. Leopoulos says Mr. Clinton “loved” his old job. “If he could be president again tomorrow, he would be.”
No doubt one of Mr. Clinton’s favorite exhibits is the exact replica of the Oval Office, meticulously cloned by Little Rock interior designer Kaki Hockersmith. Miss Hockersmith, who decorated the real Oval Office for Mr. Clinton, even grew the ivy on the fireplace from a cutting of the plant in the actual White House.
The fake Oval Office is where Mr. Clinton recently taped a television commercial with former President George Bush to raise money for tsunami relief.
Mr. Clinton, who plans to overnight at the penthouse whenever he has a speaking engagement in town, invited Mr. Leopoulos and his wife, as well as his first high-school date, Mauria Aspell, and her husband over the other night for a game of hearts. SourceWere you genuinely unaware of it's existence? Yes, I had not yet seen any evidence that a penthouse existed other than you saying I was naive for asking you for evidence that it existed. I did keep asking you but you just kept calling me naive. Incidentally when I googled looking for it (I searched: clinton presidential library executive suite penthouse) there were only tabloids and explicitly conservative sources reporting on it. This is a pretty representative example http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/inside-bill-clintons-presidential-library-playboy-pad/I'm still pretty skeptical honestly. From the Wikipedia article, there is indeed a 2000 sq ft executive apartment at the top floor of this "Library". Also LOL, I had no idea Presidents building libraries to themselves was a thing. Clinton's is the 17th, apparently. And the 3rd to have an apartment, after Reagan and Bush Jr. But aside from that, the rest is typical reddit fluff. All of these libraries are built by private donations for the purpose of building these libraries. It did go through the Clinton Foundation, but when you have an existing framework for taking donations, why not (unless there's some weird tax laws or something regarding this)? The fundraising to build this was expressly for building the library, so it's not like they were siphoning money from somewhere else. So basically, apparently it's a thing for ex-Presidents to ask people to donate money to build a library dedicated to themselves, and it's becoming a trend for them to build private apartments and offices in them. This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods?
It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia.
The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps.
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On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:33 WhiteDog wrote:
Our dear GH is totally right. Now that we passed the "it's all a lie" phase I expect "It's not a big deal, it's normal", followed quickly by "But compare that to Trump", and maybe even find a way to blame Russia. Of course none of that would matter to my original point (that they personally benefit from the charity), but they have already reconstructed in their minds what I was actually saying and will probably keep arguing against that imaginary opponent. On October 20 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
And seriously GH if the best you can come up with is that Clinton has an apartment he uses a couple times a month at most that's pretty trivial. CEO's of most large orgs have a pretty cushy office. It's also a not uncommon practice to turn it into a living space. On October 20 2016 03:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 02:43 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:14 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:06 Evotroid wrote:On October 20 2016 02:01 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Well they say 0, and I've seen 0 evidence any have been. So I'm leaning toward 0. I don't know if it is actually this lost on you, but reading that, I bet Bill would laugh off his ass in his secret corruption library lounge where he corrupts stuff...... Bruh, I know it's fun to imagineer opponents but my comment on the penthouse wasn't some secret corruption lair, just a personal benefit maintained by his charity. That people want to push the point that it's absurd to suggest that perhaps he doesn't only do official charity business in a penthouse he stays at frequently, is their own feigned naivety. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of wikileaks documents. Out of curiousity, where is this penthouse? Where did you hear about it? Can you link to an article referencing it? I know you keep saying I'm feigning naivety for not believing that Bill Clinton keeps a secret penthouse in his library for personal use outside of his normal library functions but I'm really not. I just haven't yet seen all the things you have seen that led you to that conclusion. Mr. Leopoulos says Mr. Clinton “loved” his old job. “If he could be president again tomorrow, he would be.”
No doubt one of Mr. Clinton’s favorite exhibits is the exact replica of the Oval Office, meticulously cloned by Little Rock interior designer Kaki Hockersmith. Miss Hockersmith, who decorated the real Oval Office for Mr. Clinton, even grew the ivy on the fireplace from a cutting of the plant in the actual White House.
The fake Oval Office is where Mr. Clinton recently taped a television commercial with former President George Bush to raise money for tsunami relief.
Mr. Clinton, who plans to overnight at the penthouse whenever he has a speaking engagement in town, invited Mr. Leopoulos and his wife, as well as his first high-school date, Mauria Aspell, and her husband over the other night for a game of hearts. SourceWere you genuinely unaware of it's existence? Yes, I had not yet seen any evidence that a penthouse existed other than you saying I was naive for asking you for evidence that it existed. I did keep asking you but you just kept calling me naive. Incidentally when I googled looking for it (I searched: clinton presidential library executive suite penthouse) there were only tabloids and explicitly conservative sources reporting on it. This is a pretty representative example http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/inside-bill-clintons-presidential-library-playboy-pad/I'm still pretty skeptical honestly. From the Wikipedia article, there is indeed a 2000 sq ft executive apartment at the top floor of this "Library". Also LOL, I had no idea Presidents building libraries to themselves was a thing. Clinton's is the 17th, apparently. And the 3rd to have an apartment, after Reagan and Bush Jr. But aside from that, the rest is typical reddit fluff. All of these libraries are built by private donations for the purpose of building these libraries. It did go through the Clinton Foundation, but when you have an existing framework for taking donations, why not (unless there's some weird tax laws or something regarding this)? The fundraising to build this was expressly for building the library, so it's not like they were siphoning money from somewhere else. So basically, apparently it's a thing for ex-Presidents to ask people to donate money to build a library dedicated to themselves, and it's becoming a trend for them to build private apartments and offices in them. This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps.
No, I think we're still trying to figure out where the point is?
Presidents are actually encouraged to get these libraries built and funded, by the way: https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/about/faqs.html
Also:
+ Show Spoiler +Funding
How is a Presidential Library paid for and funded?
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
Some Libraries have also received construction and development funding from state and/or local governments.
The Library is then transferred to the Federal government and operated and maintained by NARA through its congressionally appropriated operating budget.
Some staff and programs at Presidential Libraries are paid for with funds from associated private foundations organized to fund the construction of the Library. These private foundations also provide continuing support for Library programs and special events, such as conferences and exhibitions.
What is the role of a Presidential Library foundation?
Presidential Libraries carry out a mandated program to preserve, process, and make available their archival holdings. As part of providing access, the Libraries and Museums provide outreach and educational programs.
NARA does not have sufficient resources to provide the broadest spectrum of innovative and insightful public, education, and information programs in each Library. Foundation support is critical to the development of core public programming for a Presidential Library.
Presidential Libraries and Museums, their web sites, and the scholarship they promote benefit in significant ways from private organizations established to support such programs.
In several cases, these organizations evolved from bodies chartered to raise money and construct the original Library building. In other instances, these organizations were formed after the dedication of the Library by friends of the President.
Just as the origin and development of these organizations have varied, their formation and operation take a number of forms. Some of the organizations encourage public participation through payment of membership fees. Others are non-membership charitable foundations and corporations. Several seek to support their activities solely through private contributions. Some foundations are run by paid staff, others are voluntary.
Also, it should be noted that, starting with the George Bush Library, all future Presidential Library foundations must provide an endowment to NARA to help offset facility operating expenses. This endowment is presented to NARA and is used by the government to support facility maintenance needs.
Why should taxpayers support Presidential Libraries? Are taxpayer dollars being used to fund these programs instead of taking care of important government records?
NARA’s mission is to serve American democracy by safeguarding and preserving the records of our Government, ensuring that the people can discover, use, and learn from this documentary heritage. We ensure continuing access to the essential documentation of the rights of American citizens and the actions of their government. We support democracy, promote civic education, and facilitate historical understanding of our national experience.
Presidential Libraries support NARA’s mission by preserving and providing access to materials from a crucial part of our government as well as materials from individuals who have played key roles in our government. The papers and records created by, for, or about Presidents, Vice Presidents, and their administrations document the key decisions, policy and activities of the institution of the Presidency - the highest policy level of government. The documents and artifacts held by the Presidential Libraries not only inform society about the President as an individual and about his term in office, but also provide insights into the American experience.
By providing access to these holdings through our research rooms, our exhibits, and online we attempt to support NARA’s mission for the broadest audience possible. In our efforts to fulfill this mission we draw on the many partnerships formed between NARA and the Presidential Library foundations. As a result, many aspects of museum and public programs are, in fact, supported by private funds, although they are overseen by government professionals including curators, educators, and archivists.
First sentence is fairly important here:
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
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On October 20 2016 03:25 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:33 WhiteDog wrote:
Our dear GH is totally right. Now that we passed the "it's all a lie" phase I expect "It's not a big deal, it's normal", followed quickly by "But compare that to Trump", and maybe even find a way to blame Russia. Of course none of that would matter to my original point (that they personally benefit from the charity), but they have already reconstructed in their minds what I was actually saying and will probably keep arguing against that imaginary opponent. On October 20 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
And seriously GH if the best you can come up with is that Clinton has an apartment he uses a couple times a month at most that's pretty trivial. CEO's of most large orgs have a pretty cushy office. It's also a not uncommon practice to turn it into a living space. On October 20 2016 03:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 02:43 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:14 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:06 Evotroid wrote:
[quote]
I don't know if it is actually this lost on you, but reading that, I bet Bill would laugh off his ass in his secret corruption library lounge where he corrupts stuff...... Bruh, I know it's fun to imagineer opponents but my comment on the penthouse wasn't some secret corruption lair, just a personal benefit maintained by his charity. That people want to push the point that it's absurd to suggest that perhaps he doesn't only do official charity business in a penthouse he stays at frequently, is their own feigned naivety. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of wikileaks documents. Out of curiousity, where is this penthouse? Where did you hear about it? Can you link to an article referencing it? I know you keep saying I'm feigning naivety for not believing that Bill Clinton keeps a secret penthouse in his library for personal use outside of his normal library functions but I'm really not. I just haven't yet seen all the things you have seen that led you to that conclusion. Mr. Leopoulos says Mr. Clinton “loved” his old job. “If he could be president again tomorrow, he would be.”
No doubt one of Mr. Clinton’s favorite exhibits is the exact replica of the Oval Office, meticulously cloned by Little Rock interior designer Kaki Hockersmith. Miss Hockersmith, who decorated the real Oval Office for Mr. Clinton, even grew the ivy on the fireplace from a cutting of the plant in the actual White House.
The fake Oval Office is where Mr. Clinton recently taped a television commercial with former President George Bush to raise money for tsunami relief.
Mr. Clinton, who plans to overnight at the penthouse whenever he has a speaking engagement in town, invited Mr. Leopoulos and his wife, as well as his first high-school date, Mauria Aspell, and her husband over the other night for a game of hearts. SourceWere you genuinely unaware of it's existence? Yes, I had not yet seen any evidence that a penthouse existed other than you saying I was naive for asking you for evidence that it existed. I did keep asking you but you just kept calling me naive. Incidentally when I googled looking for it (I searched: clinton presidential library executive suite penthouse) there were only tabloids and explicitly conservative sources reporting on it. This is a pretty representative example http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/inside-bill-clintons-presidential-library-playboy-pad/I'm still pretty skeptical honestly. From the Wikipedia article, there is indeed a 2000 sq ft executive apartment at the top floor of this "Library". Also LOL, I had no idea Presidents building libraries to themselves was a thing. Clinton's is the 17th, apparently. And the 3rd to have an apartment, after Reagan and Bush Jr. But aside from that, the rest is typical reddit fluff. All of these libraries are built by private donations for the purpose of building these libraries. It did go through the Clinton Foundation, but when you have an existing framework for taking donations, why not (unless there's some weird tax laws or something regarding this)? The fundraising to build this was expressly for building the library, so it's not like they were siphoning money from somewhere else. So basically, apparently it's a thing for ex-Presidents to ask people to donate money to build a library dedicated to themselves, and it's becoming a trend for them to build private apartments and offices in them. This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps. No, I think we're still trying to figure out where the point is? Presidents are actually encouraged to get these libraries built and funded, by the way: https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/about/faqs.htmlAlso: + Show Spoiler +Funding
How is a Presidential Library paid for and funded?
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
Some Libraries have also received construction and development funding from state and/or local governments.
The Library is then transferred to the Federal government and operated and maintained by NARA through its congressionally appropriated operating budget.
Some staff and programs at Presidential Libraries are paid for with funds from associated private foundations organized to fund the construction of the Library. These private foundations also provide continuing support for Library programs and special events, such as conferences and exhibitions.
What is the role of a Presidential Library foundation?
Presidential Libraries carry out a mandated program to preserve, process, and make available their archival holdings. As part of providing access, the Libraries and Museums provide outreach and educational programs.
NARA does not have sufficient resources to provide the broadest spectrum of innovative and insightful public, education, and information programs in each Library. Foundation support is critical to the development of core public programming for a Presidential Library.
Presidential Libraries and Museums, their web sites, and the scholarship they promote benefit in significant ways from private organizations established to support such programs.
In several cases, these organizations evolved from bodies chartered to raise money and construct the original Library building. In other instances, these organizations were formed after the dedication of the Library by friends of the President.
Just as the origin and development of these organizations have varied, their formation and operation take a number of forms. Some of the organizations encourage public participation through payment of membership fees. Others are non-membership charitable foundations and corporations. Several seek to support their activities solely through private contributions. Some foundations are run by paid staff, others are voluntary.
Also, it should be noted that, starting with the George Bush Library, all future Presidential Library foundations must provide an endowment to NARA to help offset facility operating expenses. This endowment is presented to NARA and is used by the government to support facility maintenance needs.
Why should taxpayers support Presidential Libraries? Are taxpayer dollars being used to fund these programs instead of taking care of important government records?
NARA’s mission is to serve American democracy by safeguarding and preserving the records of our Government, ensuring that the people can discover, use, and learn from this documentary heritage. We ensure continuing access to the essential documentation of the rights of American citizens and the actions of their government. We support democracy, promote civic education, and facilitate historical understanding of our national experience.
Presidential Libraries support NARA’s mission by preserving and providing access to materials from a crucial part of our government as well as materials from individuals who have played key roles in our government. The papers and records created by, for, or about Presidents, Vice Presidents, and their administrations document the key decisions, policy and activities of the institution of the Presidency - the highest policy level of government. The documents and artifacts held by the Presidential Libraries not only inform society about the President as an individual and about his term in office, but also provide insights into the American experience.
By providing access to these holdings through our research rooms, our exhibits, and online we attempt to support NARA’s mission for the broadest audience possible. In our efforts to fulfill this mission we draw on the many partnerships formed between NARA and the Presidential Library foundations. As a result, many aspects of museum and public programs are, in fact, supported by private funds, although they are overseen by government professionals including curators, educators, and archivists.
Presuming you jumped in half way, otherwise you and Barrin would understand that it being common has 0 bearing on my original point.
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On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:33 WhiteDog wrote:
Our dear GH is totally right. Now that we passed the "it's all a lie" phase I expect "It's not a big deal, it's normal", followed quickly by "But compare that to Trump", and maybe even find a way to blame Russia. Of course none of that would matter to my original point (that they personally benefit from the charity), but they have already reconstructed in their minds what I was actually saying and will probably keep arguing against that imaginary opponent. On October 20 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
And seriously GH if the best you can come up with is that Clinton has an apartment he uses a couple times a month at most that's pretty trivial. CEO's of most large orgs have a pretty cushy office. It's also a not uncommon practice to turn it into a living space. On October 20 2016 03:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 02:43 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:14 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:06 Evotroid wrote:On October 20 2016 02:01 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Well they say 0, and I've seen 0 evidence any have been. So I'm leaning toward 0. I don't know if it is actually this lost on you, but reading that, I bet Bill would laugh off his ass in his secret corruption library lounge where he corrupts stuff...... Bruh, I know it's fun to imagineer opponents but my comment on the penthouse wasn't some secret corruption lair, just a personal benefit maintained by his charity. That people want to push the point that it's absurd to suggest that perhaps he doesn't only do official charity business in a penthouse he stays at frequently, is their own feigned naivety. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of wikileaks documents. Out of curiousity, where is this penthouse? Where did you hear about it? Can you link to an article referencing it? I know you keep saying I'm feigning naivety for not believing that Bill Clinton keeps a secret penthouse in his library for personal use outside of his normal library functions but I'm really not. I just haven't yet seen all the things you have seen that led you to that conclusion. Mr. Leopoulos says Mr. Clinton “loved” his old job. “If he could be president again tomorrow, he would be.”
No doubt one of Mr. Clinton’s favorite exhibits is the exact replica of the Oval Office, meticulously cloned by Little Rock interior designer Kaki Hockersmith. Miss Hockersmith, who decorated the real Oval Office for Mr. Clinton, even grew the ivy on the fireplace from a cutting of the plant in the actual White House.
The fake Oval Office is where Mr. Clinton recently taped a television commercial with former President George Bush to raise money for tsunami relief.
Mr. Clinton, who plans to overnight at the penthouse whenever he has a speaking engagement in town, invited Mr. Leopoulos and his wife, as well as his first high-school date, Mauria Aspell, and her husband over the other night for a game of hearts. SourceWere you genuinely unaware of it's existence? Yes, I had not yet seen any evidence that a penthouse existed other than you saying I was naive for asking you for evidence that it existed. I did keep asking you but you just kept calling me naive. Incidentally when I googled looking for it (I searched: clinton presidential library executive suite penthouse) there were only tabloids and explicitly conservative sources reporting on it. This is a pretty representative example http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/inside-bill-clintons-presidential-library-playboy-pad/I'm still pretty skeptical honestly. From the Wikipedia article, there is indeed a 2000 sq ft executive apartment at the top floor of this "Library". Also LOL, I had no idea Presidents building libraries to themselves was a thing. Clinton's is the 17th, apparently. And the 3rd to have an apartment, after Reagan and Bush Jr. But aside from that, the rest is typical reddit fluff. All of these libraries are built by private donations for the purpose of building these libraries. It did go through the Clinton Foundation, but when you have an existing framework for taking donations, why not (unless there's some weird tax laws or something regarding this)? The fundraising to build this was expressly for building the library, so it's not like they were siphoning money from somewhere else. So basically, apparently it's a thing for ex-Presidents to ask people to donate money to build a library dedicated to themselves, and it's becoming a trend for them to build private apartments and offices in them. This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps.
1. You make accusation about how corrupt Clintons are
2. Other people respond (i) why it's not actually corruption, (ii) what you described is basically regular stuff and how the real world works and (iii) his argument doesn't make sense
3. You say people are blind and strawman
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United States43262 Posts
Didn't we get here from the Clinton family being corrupt and using their charities as a tax shield? I know we took a very circuitous route because GH wouldn't tell us what he was talking about and kept saying we were naive for asking him to tell us what the fuck he was talking about but now that we're here at the finish line I'm just not sure we actually got to the original destination. We started with the claim that the existence of tax deductions was corrupt and I had to explain that they're routine. Then we had the charity being used as a slush fund and I had to explain that charity money is actually not the same as personal money. Then GH insisted that the penthouse meant that it was a slush fund and wouldn't tell us what the penthouse was for two days and finally quoted a tabloid implying that it was used for illicit non charity purposes. Then posted a broadsheet to verify that it existed, which it did without mentioning any of the other stuff.
I feel like at this point GH has successfully argued for the existence of the penthouse but we're still a very long way from the Clinton family using the CFF as a tax shield.
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If Bill Clinton is in an open marriage with Hilary and he happens to have sex in an apartment, why do we care?
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On October 20 2016 03:27 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:25 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:33 WhiteDog wrote:
Our dear GH is totally right. Now that we passed the "it's all a lie" phase I expect "It's not a big deal, it's normal", followed quickly by "But compare that to Trump", and maybe even find a way to blame Russia. Of course none of that would matter to my original point (that they personally benefit from the charity), but they have already reconstructed in their minds what I was actually saying and will probably keep arguing against that imaginary opponent. On October 20 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
And seriously GH if the best you can come up with is that Clinton has an apartment he uses a couple times a month at most that's pretty trivial. CEO's of most large orgs have a pretty cushy office. It's also a not uncommon practice to turn it into a living space. On October 20 2016 03:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 02:43 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:14 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Out of curiousity, where is this penthouse? Where did you hear about it? Can you link to an article referencing it?
I know you keep saying I'm feigning naivety for not believing that Bill Clinton keeps a secret penthouse in his library for personal use outside of his normal library functions but I'm really not. I just haven't yet seen all the things you have seen that led you to that conclusion. Mr. Leopoulos says Mr. Clinton “loved” his old job. “If he could be president again tomorrow, he would be.”
No doubt one of Mr. Clinton’s favorite exhibits is the exact replica of the Oval Office, meticulously cloned by Little Rock interior designer Kaki Hockersmith. Miss Hockersmith, who decorated the real Oval Office for Mr. Clinton, even grew the ivy on the fireplace from a cutting of the plant in the actual White House.
The fake Oval Office is where Mr. Clinton recently taped a television commercial with former President George Bush to raise money for tsunami relief.
Mr. Clinton, who plans to overnight at the penthouse whenever he has a speaking engagement in town, invited Mr. Leopoulos and his wife, as well as his first high-school date, Mauria Aspell, and her husband over the other night for a game of hearts. SourceWere you genuinely unaware of it's existence? Yes, I had not yet seen any evidence that a penthouse existed other than you saying I was naive for asking you for evidence that it existed. I did keep asking you but you just kept calling me naive. Incidentally when I googled looking for it (I searched: clinton presidential library executive suite penthouse) there were only tabloids and explicitly conservative sources reporting on it. This is a pretty representative example http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/inside-bill-clintons-presidential-library-playboy-pad/I'm still pretty skeptical honestly. From the Wikipedia article, there is indeed a 2000 sq ft executive apartment at the top floor of this "Library". Also LOL, I had no idea Presidents building libraries to themselves was a thing. Clinton's is the 17th, apparently. And the 3rd to have an apartment, after Reagan and Bush Jr. But aside from that, the rest is typical reddit fluff. All of these libraries are built by private donations for the purpose of building these libraries. It did go through the Clinton Foundation, but when you have an existing framework for taking donations, why not (unless there's some weird tax laws or something regarding this)? The fundraising to build this was expressly for building the library, so it's not like they were siphoning money from somewhere else. So basically, apparently it's a thing for ex-Presidents to ask people to donate money to build a library dedicated to themselves, and it's becoming a trend for them to build private apartments and offices in them. This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps. No, I think we're still trying to figure out where the point is? Presidents are actually encouraged to get these libraries built and funded, by the way: https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/about/faqs.htmlAlso: + Show Spoiler +Funding
How is a Presidential Library paid for and funded?
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
Some Libraries have also received construction and development funding from state and/or local governments.
The Library is then transferred to the Federal government and operated and maintained by NARA through its congressionally appropriated operating budget.
Some staff and programs at Presidential Libraries are paid for with funds from associated private foundations organized to fund the construction of the Library. These private foundations also provide continuing support for Library programs and special events, such as conferences and exhibitions.
What is the role of a Presidential Library foundation?
Presidential Libraries carry out a mandated program to preserve, process, and make available their archival holdings. As part of providing access, the Libraries and Museums provide outreach and educational programs.
NARA does not have sufficient resources to provide the broadest spectrum of innovative and insightful public, education, and information programs in each Library. Foundation support is critical to the development of core public programming for a Presidential Library.
Presidential Libraries and Museums, their web sites, and the scholarship they promote benefit in significant ways from private organizations established to support such programs.
In several cases, these organizations evolved from bodies chartered to raise money and construct the original Library building. In other instances, these organizations were formed after the dedication of the Library by friends of the President.
Just as the origin and development of these organizations have varied, their formation and operation take a number of forms. Some of the organizations encourage public participation through payment of membership fees. Others are non-membership charitable foundations and corporations. Several seek to support their activities solely through private contributions. Some foundations are run by paid staff, others are voluntary.
Also, it should be noted that, starting with the George Bush Library, all future Presidential Library foundations must provide an endowment to NARA to help offset facility operating expenses. This endowment is presented to NARA and is used by the government to support facility maintenance needs.
Why should taxpayers support Presidential Libraries? Are taxpayer dollars being used to fund these programs instead of taking care of important government records?
NARA’s mission is to serve American democracy by safeguarding and preserving the records of our Government, ensuring that the people can discover, use, and learn from this documentary heritage. We ensure continuing access to the essential documentation of the rights of American citizens and the actions of their government. We support democracy, promote civic education, and facilitate historical understanding of our national experience.
Presidential Libraries support NARA’s mission by preserving and providing access to materials from a crucial part of our government as well as materials from individuals who have played key roles in our government. The papers and records created by, for, or about Presidents, Vice Presidents, and their administrations document the key decisions, policy and activities of the institution of the Presidency - the highest policy level of government. The documents and artifacts held by the Presidential Libraries not only inform society about the President as an individual and about his term in office, but also provide insights into the American experience.
By providing access to these holdings through our research rooms, our exhibits, and online we attempt to support NARA’s mission for the broadest audience possible. In our efforts to fulfill this mission we draw on the many partnerships formed between NARA and the Presidential Library foundations. As a result, many aspects of museum and public programs are, in fact, supported by private funds, although they are overseen by government professionals including curators, educators, and archivists. Presuming you jumped in half way, otherwise you and Barrin would understand that it being common has 0 bearing on my original point. Yes. Your original point. What is it?
That the foundation is sometimes used for personal benefit. That it's so common is part of the problem. That rather than be critical of it when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, they'd rather make it seem like part of the natural order of things to defend their goddess.
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On October 20 2016 03:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:25 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:33 WhiteDog wrote:
Our dear GH is totally right. Now that we passed the "it's all a lie" phase I expect "It's not a big deal, it's normal", followed quickly by "But compare that to Trump", and maybe even find a way to blame Russia. Of course none of that would matter to my original point (that they personally benefit from the charity), but they have already reconstructed in their minds what I was actually saying and will probably keep arguing against that imaginary opponent. On October 20 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
And seriously GH if the best you can come up with is that Clinton has an apartment he uses a couple times a month at most that's pretty trivial. CEO's of most large orgs have a pretty cushy office. It's also a not uncommon practice to turn it into a living space. On October 20 2016 03:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 02:43 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:14 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Bruh, I know it's fun to imagineer opponents but my comment on the penthouse wasn't some secret corruption lair, just a personal benefit maintained by his charity.
That people want to push the point that it's absurd to suggest that perhaps he doesn't only do official charity business in a penthouse he stays at frequently, is their own feigned naivety.
But that has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of wikileaks documents. Out of curiousity, where is this penthouse? Where did you hear about it? Can you link to an article referencing it? I know you keep saying I'm feigning naivety for not believing that Bill Clinton keeps a secret penthouse in his library for personal use outside of his normal library functions but I'm really not. I just haven't yet seen all the things you have seen that led you to that conclusion. Mr. Leopoulos says Mr. Clinton “loved” his old job. “If he could be president again tomorrow, he would be.”
No doubt one of Mr. Clinton’s favorite exhibits is the exact replica of the Oval Office, meticulously cloned by Little Rock interior designer Kaki Hockersmith. Miss Hockersmith, who decorated the real Oval Office for Mr. Clinton, even grew the ivy on the fireplace from a cutting of the plant in the actual White House.
The fake Oval Office is where Mr. Clinton recently taped a television commercial with former President George Bush to raise money for tsunami relief.
Mr. Clinton, who plans to overnight at the penthouse whenever he has a speaking engagement in town, invited Mr. Leopoulos and his wife, as well as his first high-school date, Mauria Aspell, and her husband over the other night for a game of hearts. SourceWere you genuinely unaware of it's existence? Yes, I had not yet seen any evidence that a penthouse existed other than you saying I was naive for asking you for evidence that it existed. I did keep asking you but you just kept calling me naive. Incidentally when I googled looking for it (I searched: clinton presidential library executive suite penthouse) there were only tabloids and explicitly conservative sources reporting on it. This is a pretty representative example http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/inside-bill-clintons-presidential-library-playboy-pad/I'm still pretty skeptical honestly. From the Wikipedia article, there is indeed a 2000 sq ft executive apartment at the top floor of this "Library". Also LOL, I had no idea Presidents building libraries to themselves was a thing. Clinton's is the 17th, apparently. And the 3rd to have an apartment, after Reagan and Bush Jr. But aside from that, the rest is typical reddit fluff. All of these libraries are built by private donations for the purpose of building these libraries. It did go through the Clinton Foundation, but when you have an existing framework for taking donations, why not (unless there's some weird tax laws or something regarding this)? The fundraising to build this was expressly for building the library, so it's not like they were siphoning money from somewhere else. So basically, apparently it's a thing for ex-Presidents to ask people to donate money to build a library dedicated to themselves, and it's becoming a trend for them to build private apartments and offices in them. This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps. No, I think we're still trying to figure out where the point is? Presidents are actually encouraged to get these libraries built and funded, by the way: https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/about/faqs.htmlAlso: + Show Spoiler +Funding
How is a Presidential Library paid for and funded?
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
Some Libraries have also received construction and development funding from state and/or local governments.
The Library is then transferred to the Federal government and operated and maintained by NARA through its congressionally appropriated operating budget.
Some staff and programs at Presidential Libraries are paid for with funds from associated private foundations organized to fund the construction of the Library. These private foundations also provide continuing support for Library programs and special events, such as conferences and exhibitions.
What is the role of a Presidential Library foundation?
Presidential Libraries carry out a mandated program to preserve, process, and make available their archival holdings. As part of providing access, the Libraries and Museums provide outreach and educational programs.
NARA does not have sufficient resources to provide the broadest spectrum of innovative and insightful public, education, and information programs in each Library. Foundation support is critical to the development of core public programming for a Presidential Library.
Presidential Libraries and Museums, their web sites, and the scholarship they promote benefit in significant ways from private organizations established to support such programs.
In several cases, these organizations evolved from bodies chartered to raise money and construct the original Library building. In other instances, these organizations were formed after the dedication of the Library by friends of the President.
Just as the origin and development of these organizations have varied, their formation and operation take a number of forms. Some of the organizations encourage public participation through payment of membership fees. Others are non-membership charitable foundations and corporations. Several seek to support their activities solely through private contributions. Some foundations are run by paid staff, others are voluntary.
Also, it should be noted that, starting with the George Bush Library, all future Presidential Library foundations must provide an endowment to NARA to help offset facility operating expenses. This endowment is presented to NARA and is used by the government to support facility maintenance needs.
Why should taxpayers support Presidential Libraries? Are taxpayer dollars being used to fund these programs instead of taking care of important government records?
NARA’s mission is to serve American democracy by safeguarding and preserving the records of our Government, ensuring that the people can discover, use, and learn from this documentary heritage. We ensure continuing access to the essential documentation of the rights of American citizens and the actions of their government. We support democracy, promote civic education, and facilitate historical understanding of our national experience.
Presidential Libraries support NARA’s mission by preserving and providing access to materials from a crucial part of our government as well as materials from individuals who have played key roles in our government. The papers and records created by, for, or about Presidents, Vice Presidents, and their administrations document the key decisions, policy and activities of the institution of the Presidency - the highest policy level of government. The documents and artifacts held by the Presidential Libraries not only inform society about the President as an individual and about his term in office, but also provide insights into the American experience.
By providing access to these holdings through our research rooms, our exhibits, and online we attempt to support NARA’s mission for the broadest audience possible. In our efforts to fulfill this mission we draw on the many partnerships formed between NARA and the Presidential Library foundations. As a result, many aspects of museum and public programs are, in fact, supported by private funds, although they are overseen by government professionals including curators, educators, and archivists. Presuming you jumped in half way, otherwise you and Barrin would understand that it being common has 0 bearing on my original point.
I'm assuming this has to to with using a charity to build this or something? See edit, or just see this:
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
So really, bare bones is that:
1) Presidents are told to build monuments to themselves.
2) They're told to get money into a non-profit organization to fund it.
Which, to be fair, is rather ridiculous as a whole. But I don't really see how this reflects on the Clintons specifically.
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On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:27 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:25 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:33 WhiteDog wrote:
Our dear GH is totally right. Now that we passed the "it's all a lie" phase I expect "It's not a big deal, it's normal", followed quickly by "But compare that to Trump", and maybe even find a way to blame Russia. Of course none of that would matter to my original point (that they personally benefit from the charity), but they have already reconstructed in their minds what I was actually saying and will probably keep arguing against that imaginary opponent. On October 20 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
And seriously GH if the best you can come up with is that Clinton has an apartment he uses a couple times a month at most that's pretty trivial. CEO's of most large orgs have a pretty cushy office. It's also a not uncommon practice to turn it into a living space. On October 20 2016 03:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 02:43 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] [quote] SourceWere you genuinely unaware of it's existence? Yes, I had not yet seen any evidence that a penthouse existed other than you saying I was naive for asking you for evidence that it existed. I did keep asking you but you just kept calling me naive. Incidentally when I googled looking for it (I searched: clinton presidential library executive suite penthouse) there were only tabloids and explicitly conservative sources reporting on it. This is a pretty representative example http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/inside-bill-clintons-presidential-library-playboy-pad/I'm still pretty skeptical honestly. From the Wikipedia article, there is indeed a 2000 sq ft executive apartment at the top floor of this "Library". Also LOL, I had no idea Presidents building libraries to themselves was a thing. Clinton's is the 17th, apparently. And the 3rd to have an apartment, after Reagan and Bush Jr. But aside from that, the rest is typical reddit fluff. All of these libraries are built by private donations for the purpose of building these libraries. It did go through the Clinton Foundation, but when you have an existing framework for taking donations, why not (unless there's some weird tax laws or something regarding this)? The fundraising to build this was expressly for building the library, so it's not like they were siphoning money from somewhere else. So basically, apparently it's a thing for ex-Presidents to ask people to donate money to build a library dedicated to themselves, and it's becoming a trend for them to build private apartments and offices in them. This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps. No, I think we're still trying to figure out where the point is? Presidents are actually encouraged to get these libraries built and funded, by the way: https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/about/faqs.htmlAlso: + Show Spoiler +Funding
How is a Presidential Library paid for and funded?
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
Some Libraries have also received construction and development funding from state and/or local governments.
The Library is then transferred to the Federal government and operated and maintained by NARA through its congressionally appropriated operating budget.
Some staff and programs at Presidential Libraries are paid for with funds from associated private foundations organized to fund the construction of the Library. These private foundations also provide continuing support for Library programs and special events, such as conferences and exhibitions.
What is the role of a Presidential Library foundation?
Presidential Libraries carry out a mandated program to preserve, process, and make available their archival holdings. As part of providing access, the Libraries and Museums provide outreach and educational programs.
NARA does not have sufficient resources to provide the broadest spectrum of innovative and insightful public, education, and information programs in each Library. Foundation support is critical to the development of core public programming for a Presidential Library.
Presidential Libraries and Museums, their web sites, and the scholarship they promote benefit in significant ways from private organizations established to support such programs.
In several cases, these organizations evolved from bodies chartered to raise money and construct the original Library building. In other instances, these organizations were formed after the dedication of the Library by friends of the President.
Just as the origin and development of these organizations have varied, their formation and operation take a number of forms. Some of the organizations encourage public participation through payment of membership fees. Others are non-membership charitable foundations and corporations. Several seek to support their activities solely through private contributions. Some foundations are run by paid staff, others are voluntary.
Also, it should be noted that, starting with the George Bush Library, all future Presidential Library foundations must provide an endowment to NARA to help offset facility operating expenses. This endowment is presented to NARA and is used by the government to support facility maintenance needs.
Why should taxpayers support Presidential Libraries? Are taxpayer dollars being used to fund these programs instead of taking care of important government records?
NARA’s mission is to serve American democracy by safeguarding and preserving the records of our Government, ensuring that the people can discover, use, and learn from this documentary heritage. We ensure continuing access to the essential documentation of the rights of American citizens and the actions of their government. We support democracy, promote civic education, and facilitate historical understanding of our national experience.
Presidential Libraries support NARA’s mission by preserving and providing access to materials from a crucial part of our government as well as materials from individuals who have played key roles in our government. The papers and records created by, for, or about Presidents, Vice Presidents, and their administrations document the key decisions, policy and activities of the institution of the Presidency - the highest policy level of government. The documents and artifacts held by the Presidential Libraries not only inform society about the President as an individual and about his term in office, but also provide insights into the American experience.
By providing access to these holdings through our research rooms, our exhibits, and online we attempt to support NARA’s mission for the broadest audience possible. In our efforts to fulfill this mission we draw on the many partnerships formed between NARA and the Presidential Library foundations. As a result, many aspects of museum and public programs are, in fact, supported by private funds, although they are overseen by government professionals including curators, educators, and archivists. Presuming you jumped in half way, otherwise you and Barrin would understand that it being common has 0 bearing on my original point. Yes. Your original point. What is it? That the foundation is sometimes used for personal benefit. That it's so common is part of the problem. That rather than be critical of it when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, they'd rather make it seem like part of the natural order of things to defend their goddess.
You do know that people who run charities get paid, right? Sometimes its six figures depending on the charity. And those CEO’s of charities also help raise money for said charity.
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On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:27 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:25 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:33 WhiteDog wrote:
Our dear GH is totally right. Now that we passed the "it's all a lie" phase I expect "It's not a big deal, it's normal", followed quickly by "But compare that to Trump", and maybe even find a way to blame Russia. Of course none of that would matter to my original point (that they personally benefit from the charity), but they have already reconstructed in their minds what I was actually saying and will probably keep arguing against that imaginary opponent. On October 20 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
And seriously GH if the best you can come up with is that Clinton has an apartment he uses a couple times a month at most that's pretty trivial. CEO's of most large orgs have a pretty cushy office. It's also a not uncommon practice to turn it into a living space. On October 20 2016 03:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 02:43 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] [quote] SourceWere you genuinely unaware of it's existence? Yes, I had not yet seen any evidence that a penthouse existed other than you saying I was naive for asking you for evidence that it existed. I did keep asking you but you just kept calling me naive. Incidentally when I googled looking for it (I searched: clinton presidential library executive suite penthouse) there were only tabloids and explicitly conservative sources reporting on it. This is a pretty representative example http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/inside-bill-clintons-presidential-library-playboy-pad/I'm still pretty skeptical honestly. From the Wikipedia article, there is indeed a 2000 sq ft executive apartment at the top floor of this "Library". Also LOL, I had no idea Presidents building libraries to themselves was a thing. Clinton's is the 17th, apparently. And the 3rd to have an apartment, after Reagan and Bush Jr. But aside from that, the rest is typical reddit fluff. All of these libraries are built by private donations for the purpose of building these libraries. It did go through the Clinton Foundation, but when you have an existing framework for taking donations, why not (unless there's some weird tax laws or something regarding this)? The fundraising to build this was expressly for building the library, so it's not like they were siphoning money from somewhere else. So basically, apparently it's a thing for ex-Presidents to ask people to donate money to build a library dedicated to themselves, and it's becoming a trend for them to build private apartments and offices in them. This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps. No, I think we're still trying to figure out where the point is? Presidents are actually encouraged to get these libraries built and funded, by the way: https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/about/faqs.htmlAlso: + Show Spoiler +Funding
How is a Presidential Library paid for and funded?
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
Some Libraries have also received construction and development funding from state and/or local governments.
The Library is then transferred to the Federal government and operated and maintained by NARA through its congressionally appropriated operating budget.
Some staff and programs at Presidential Libraries are paid for with funds from associated private foundations organized to fund the construction of the Library. These private foundations also provide continuing support for Library programs and special events, such as conferences and exhibitions.
What is the role of a Presidential Library foundation?
Presidential Libraries carry out a mandated program to preserve, process, and make available their archival holdings. As part of providing access, the Libraries and Museums provide outreach and educational programs.
NARA does not have sufficient resources to provide the broadest spectrum of innovative and insightful public, education, and information programs in each Library. Foundation support is critical to the development of core public programming for a Presidential Library.
Presidential Libraries and Museums, their web sites, and the scholarship they promote benefit in significant ways from private organizations established to support such programs.
In several cases, these organizations evolved from bodies chartered to raise money and construct the original Library building. In other instances, these organizations were formed after the dedication of the Library by friends of the President.
Just as the origin and development of these organizations have varied, their formation and operation take a number of forms. Some of the organizations encourage public participation through payment of membership fees. Others are non-membership charitable foundations and corporations. Several seek to support their activities solely through private contributions. Some foundations are run by paid staff, others are voluntary.
Also, it should be noted that, starting with the George Bush Library, all future Presidential Library foundations must provide an endowment to NARA to help offset facility operating expenses. This endowment is presented to NARA and is used by the government to support facility maintenance needs.
Why should taxpayers support Presidential Libraries? Are taxpayer dollars being used to fund these programs instead of taking care of important government records?
NARA’s mission is to serve American democracy by safeguarding and preserving the records of our Government, ensuring that the people can discover, use, and learn from this documentary heritage. We ensure continuing access to the essential documentation of the rights of American citizens and the actions of their government. We support democracy, promote civic education, and facilitate historical understanding of our national experience.
Presidential Libraries support NARA’s mission by preserving and providing access to materials from a crucial part of our government as well as materials from individuals who have played key roles in our government. The papers and records created by, for, or about Presidents, Vice Presidents, and their administrations document the key decisions, policy and activities of the institution of the Presidency - the highest policy level of government. The documents and artifacts held by the Presidential Libraries not only inform society about the President as an individual and about his term in office, but also provide insights into the American experience.
By providing access to these holdings through our research rooms, our exhibits, and online we attempt to support NARA’s mission for the broadest audience possible. In our efforts to fulfill this mission we draw on the many partnerships formed between NARA and the Presidential Library foundations. As a result, many aspects of museum and public programs are, in fact, supported by private funds, although they are overseen by government professionals including curators, educators, and archivists. Presuming you jumped in half way, otherwise you and Barrin would understand that it being common has 0 bearing on my original point. Yes. Your original point. What is it? That the foundation is sometimes used for personal benefit. That it's so common is part of the problem. That rather than be critical of it when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, they'd rather make it seem like part of the natural order of things to defend their goddess.
So now that you have established that an apartment in a library likely has benefits that do not directly apply to charity work, what are you then using that fact to support? What specific wrongdoing do you think this apartment gives evidence of?
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There are perks available to employees of an organization. There's obvious misuses, like using the company card to pay for a personal vacation. On the other hand, rules around using an office/ suite, which are largely fixed costs, to entertain guests are far more broad. Heck, I have friends at tech companies who bring me into the office sometimes, and I mooch their snacks.
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On October 20 2016 03:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:27 Barrin wrote:On October 20 2016 03:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:25 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:33 WhiteDog wrote:
Our dear GH is totally right. Now that we passed the "it's all a lie" phase I expect "It's not a big deal, it's normal", followed quickly by "But compare that to Trump", and maybe even find a way to blame Russia. Of course none of that would matter to my original point (that they personally benefit from the charity), but they have already reconstructed in their minds what I was actually saying and will probably keep arguing against that imaginary opponent. On October 20 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
And seriously GH if the best you can come up with is that Clinton has an apartment he uses a couple times a month at most that's pretty trivial. CEO's of most large orgs have a pretty cushy office. It's also a not uncommon practice to turn it into a living space. On October 20 2016 03:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 02:43 KwarK wrote:[quote] Yes, I had not yet seen any evidence that a penthouse existed other than you saying I was naive for asking you for evidence that it existed. I did keep asking you but you just kept calling me naive. Incidentally when I googled looking for it (I searched: clinton presidential library executive suite penthouse) there were only tabloids and explicitly conservative sources reporting on it. This is a pretty representative example http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/inside-bill-clintons-presidential-library-playboy-pad/I'm still pretty skeptical honestly. From the Wikipedia article, there is indeed a 2000 sq ft executive apartment at the top floor of this "Library". Also LOL, I had no idea Presidents building libraries to themselves was a thing. Clinton's is the 17th, apparently. And the 3rd to have an apartment, after Reagan and Bush Jr. But aside from that, the rest is typical reddit fluff. All of these libraries are built by private donations for the purpose of building these libraries. It did go through the Clinton Foundation, but when you have an existing framework for taking donations, why not (unless there's some weird tax laws or something regarding this)? The fundraising to build this was expressly for building the library, so it's not like they were siphoning money from somewhere else. So basically, apparently it's a thing for ex-Presidents to ask people to donate money to build a library dedicated to themselves, and it's becoming a trend for them to build private apartments and offices in them. This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps. No, I think we're still trying to figure out where the point is? Presidents are actually encouraged to get these libraries built and funded, by the way: https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/about/faqs.htmlAlso: + Show Spoiler +Funding
How is a Presidential Library paid for and funded?
A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.
Some Libraries have also received construction and development funding from state and/or local governments.
The Library is then transferred to the Federal government and operated and maintained by NARA through its congressionally appropriated operating budget.
Some staff and programs at Presidential Libraries are paid for with funds from associated private foundations organized to fund the construction of the Library. These private foundations also provide continuing support for Library programs and special events, such as conferences and exhibitions.
What is the role of a Presidential Library foundation?
Presidential Libraries carry out a mandated program to preserve, process, and make available their archival holdings. As part of providing access, the Libraries and Museums provide outreach and educational programs.
NARA does not have sufficient resources to provide the broadest spectrum of innovative and insightful public, education, and information programs in each Library. Foundation support is critical to the development of core public programming for a Presidential Library.
Presidential Libraries and Museums, their web sites, and the scholarship they promote benefit in significant ways from private organizations established to support such programs.
In several cases, these organizations evolved from bodies chartered to raise money and construct the original Library building. In other instances, these organizations were formed after the dedication of the Library by friends of the President.
Just as the origin and development of these organizations have varied, their formation and operation take a number of forms. Some of the organizations encourage public participation through payment of membership fees. Others are non-membership charitable foundations and corporations. Several seek to support their activities solely through private contributions. Some foundations are run by paid staff, others are voluntary.
Also, it should be noted that, starting with the George Bush Library, all future Presidential Library foundations must provide an endowment to NARA to help offset facility operating expenses. This endowment is presented to NARA and is used by the government to support facility maintenance needs.
Why should taxpayers support Presidential Libraries? Are taxpayer dollars being used to fund these programs instead of taking care of important government records?
NARA’s mission is to serve American democracy by safeguarding and preserving the records of our Government, ensuring that the people can discover, use, and learn from this documentary heritage. We ensure continuing access to the essential documentation of the rights of American citizens and the actions of their government. We support democracy, promote civic education, and facilitate historical understanding of our national experience.
Presidential Libraries support NARA’s mission by preserving and providing access to materials from a crucial part of our government as well as materials from individuals who have played key roles in our government. The papers and records created by, for, or about Presidents, Vice Presidents, and their administrations document the key decisions, policy and activities of the institution of the Presidency - the highest policy level of government. The documents and artifacts held by the Presidential Libraries not only inform society about the President as an individual and about his term in office, but also provide insights into the American experience.
By providing access to these holdings through our research rooms, our exhibits, and online we attempt to support NARA’s mission for the broadest audience possible. In our efforts to fulfill this mission we draw on the many partnerships formed between NARA and the Presidential Library foundations. As a result, many aspects of museum and public programs are, in fact, supported by private funds, although they are overseen by government professionals including curators, educators, and archivists. Presuming you jumped in half way, otherwise you and Barrin would understand that it being common has 0 bearing on my original point. Yes. Your original point. What is it? That the foundation is sometimes used for personal benefit. That it's so common is part of the problem. That rather than be critical of it when it's a CEO donating money to his charity, that then pays for a penthouse, they'd rather make it seem like part of the natural order of things to defend their goddess. You do know that people who run charities get paid, right? Sometimes its six figures depending on the charity. And those CEO’s of charities also help raise money for said charity.
Yes I'm fully aware. I've done work for some major charities, and did a stint in student government organizing charity work on campus. Corruption was part of the learning process. It started small, with student government using the "government" computers for homework, but by the end of the year the stuff we got to give to students was always picked over first by the members and their friends before it even got presented for the students who paid for it.
My work with charities was similar, the biggest lesson I learned is that there are a lot of people busting their asses (usually for free) to make things actually happen and a handful of people siphoning resources from the cause to pay salaries that are basically justified as essentially a percentage of funds raised (though they usually claim other responsibilities often handled by others).
To put into perspective, the community college government I was on has one of the biggest budgets in the country. At one point we took a $25k vacation team building retreat where we literally argued over whether we would do anything work related while there or not.
We decided on a 1-hr brainstorming task, and that was it for the week.
Someone told on us, there was an "investigation" and we were cleared. What we've seen this election is just those politicians in their final form.
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On October 20 2016 03:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 03:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 03:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:33 WhiteDog wrote:
Our dear GH is totally right. Now that we passed the "it's all a lie" phase I expect "It's not a big deal, it's normal", followed quickly by "But compare that to Trump", and maybe even find a way to blame Russia. Of course none of that would matter to my original point (that they personally benefit from the charity), but they have already reconstructed in their minds what I was actually saying and will probably keep arguing against that imaginary opponent. On October 20 2016 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
And seriously GH if the best you can come up with is that Clinton has an apartment he uses a couple times a month at most that's pretty trivial. CEO's of most large orgs have a pretty cushy office. It's also a not uncommon practice to turn it into a living space. On October 20 2016 03:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 20 2016 02:43 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:14 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2016 02:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 20 2016 02:06 Evotroid wrote:On October 20 2016 02:01 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Well they say 0, and I've seen 0 evidence any have been. So I'm leaning toward 0. I don't know if it is actually this lost on you, but reading that, I bet Bill would laugh off his ass in his secret corruption library lounge where he corrupts stuff...... Bruh, I know it's fun to imagineer opponents but my comment on the penthouse wasn't some secret corruption lair, just a personal benefit maintained by his charity. That people want to push the point that it's absurd to suggest that perhaps he doesn't only do official charity business in a penthouse he stays at frequently, is their own feigned naivety. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of wikileaks documents. Out of curiousity, where is this penthouse? Where did you hear about it? Can you link to an article referencing it? I know you keep saying I'm feigning naivety for not believing that Bill Clinton keeps a secret penthouse in his library for personal use outside of his normal library functions but I'm really not. I just haven't yet seen all the things you have seen that led you to that conclusion. Mr. Leopoulos says Mr. Clinton “loved” his old job. “If he could be president again tomorrow, he would be.”
No doubt one of Mr. Clinton’s favorite exhibits is the exact replica of the Oval Office, meticulously cloned by Little Rock interior designer Kaki Hockersmith. Miss Hockersmith, who decorated the real Oval Office for Mr. Clinton, even grew the ivy on the fireplace from a cutting of the plant in the actual White House.
The fake Oval Office is where Mr. Clinton recently taped a television commercial with former President George Bush to raise money for tsunami relief.
Mr. Clinton, who plans to overnight at the penthouse whenever he has a speaking engagement in town, invited Mr. Leopoulos and his wife, as well as his first high-school date, Mauria Aspell, and her husband over the other night for a game of hearts. SourceWere you genuinely unaware of it's existence? Yes, I had not yet seen any evidence that a penthouse existed other than you saying I was naive for asking you for evidence that it existed. I did keep asking you but you just kept calling me naive. Incidentally when I googled looking for it (I searched: clinton presidential library executive suite penthouse) there were only tabloids and explicitly conservative sources reporting on it. This is a pretty representative example http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/inside-bill-clintons-presidential-library-playboy-pad/I'm still pretty skeptical honestly. From the Wikipedia article, there is indeed a 2000 sq ft executive apartment at the top floor of this "Library". Also LOL, I had no idea Presidents building libraries to themselves was a thing. Clinton's is the 17th, apparently. And the 3rd to have an apartment, after Reagan and Bush Jr. But aside from that, the rest is typical reddit fluff. All of these libraries are built by private donations for the purpose of building these libraries. It did go through the Clinton Foundation, but when you have an existing framework for taking donations, why not (unless there's some weird tax laws or something regarding this)? The fundraising to build this was expressly for building the library, so it's not like they were siphoning money from somewhere else. So basically, apparently it's a thing for ex-Presidents to ask people to donate money to build a library dedicated to themselves, and it's becoming a trend for them to build private apartments and offices in them. This is a fairly nonsensical wall of quotes GH, can you explicate what you mean or are you still in your anti-explain yourself moods? It's been a regular pattern of denying reality, then saying it's actually not that bad, which is usually followed by a comparison to Trump or other presidents doing the "same thing", then we sometimes arrive at blaming Russia. The quotes/thread show the first 3 steps.
I'm trying to remember if there's a name for the "i knew you would say that!" fallacy. I think it might be poisoning the well?
At any rate, what you're describing is a pretty normal thought process for responding to allegations against a candidate:
Step 1: Are the allegations true?
If no, dismiss. If yes, go on to step 2.
Step 2: Is the behavior of which they're accused bad?
If no, dismiss. If yes, go on to step 3.
Step 3: How bad is it? How does it compare to their opponent?
(This answer determines how the allegations should influence your vote.)
How is this not a perfectly rational way of dealing with accusations?
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It sounds like you worked for a crappy charity. My fiancée worked in the non-profit field for a long time and people generally busted there ass and were paid passable wages. They also had a policy that anyone who worked for the charity was paid, which makes sure they were not relying on volunteer labor.
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EPT
