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On September 26 2016 08:57 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 08:29 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Now to some people it isn't troubling, that's fine, but when I look at Europe, and how rapidly their Muslim population has been rising... Rose so rapidly that there is now a terrifying proportion of... 6% Muslims in Europe (factoring in the countries with a majority of Muslim in South East Europe). Guess we'll have to wait a few centuries before wearing turbans, uh? But medias did such a nice propaganda job that they managed to convince millions of people of the existence of an unstoppable force: ![[image loading]](http://www.levif.be/medias/3483/1783681.jpg)
Once again, I really assumed this was a given, so pardon my frustration, but I discussed this point so many times, and people make the most silly simplification of them all.
If Trump somehow got 30% of the Black vote in the United States, he'd be the undisputed next president of the US... The media would have nothing to talk about. This is what, 14% of the US population, and even less of the voting population?
This is a very simple example of how a small minority can greatly influence an election, to a point where it's not even that far-fetched to say that white people don't decide the outcome of elections in the US.
So yes, the current numbers are not huge, but remember, this is only one minority group that might not be assimilating well, and those numbers don't take long to grow quickly, just like how in less than 30 years, the White population in the US will go from 63 to 50 percent.
Also, sad that I have to mention it, but I did say it was a saying, and it wasn't a point to be attacked, but alas.
edit: Also, from a scientific standpoint, I really question the validity of the research here done. If it's what I expect, that they ask 10 people how many Muslims do you think there are in your country, and 9 of them say five, and one person is trying to be a little shit and say 50, your average all of the sudden becomes 9.5% instead of 5% due to 10% outliers. Just one of many finer point that people don't think about before posting studies.
edit2: Also fuck those graphs, the orange areas should be the number listed there minus the dark red number, in its current form it looks misleading at first sight, because it makes it look like there's 31% more Muslims in france than in reality, when what it's saying is that people thought is there are 31% Muslims in France. So yeah, looking at it closer, it's fine, but again, stupid tricks that prevent us having objective arguments over anything, since people want to inject their own bias at every chance they get.
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On September 26 2016 08:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 08:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
You can tell the posters in this thread are mostly democrat since every page the debate is about race, sexual identity and gender identity. Sorry, no infowars here. You need to go to reddit for that stuff.
Whats infowars got to do with anything?
I'm saying I'm tired of everything continually being brought back to race, gender identity and sexual identity.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3cGfrExozQ
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On September 26 2016 09:05 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 08:55 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2016 08:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
You can tell the posters in this thread are mostly democrat since every page the debate is about race, sexual identity and gender identity. Sorry, no infowars here. You need to go to reddit for that stuff. Whats infowars got to do with anything? I'm saying I'm tired of everything continually being brought back to race, gender identity and sexual identity. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3cGfrExozQ
These issues are never going to go away in your life time, so I would maybe try deal with it. The issues are not important to you, but that has no bearing on how important the issues are to women, minorities and LGBT folks.
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These Pew research polls always come up with such numbers, no matter the subject... Can you wrap your mind around the idea that french people answer on average that there is 31% of muslims in France? That's like such an insanely high average answer ><
First instinct is to question the methodology... but then I remember Zemmour quoting a number of immigrant children who are under 4 years old that was higher than the total number of infants who are under 4 years old in France, and I'm like yeah maybe
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The point is simple, ideologies are far more dangerous than weapons. The left for the most part has neglected this aspect, and is so extreme in the opposite direction they literally can't call it what it is: radical Islam. I have 0 confidence in them being able to prevent these toxic ideas from slowly infiltrating the US like the virus that it is. Agree with you Fiwi, being islamaphobic is nothing to be ashamed of.
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On September 26 2016 09:05 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 08:55 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2016 08:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
You can tell the posters in this thread are mostly democrat since every page the debate is about race, sexual identity and gender identity. Sorry, no infowars here. You need to go to reddit for that stuff. Whats infowars got to do with anything? I'm saying I'm tired of everything continually being brought back to race, gender identity and sexual identity. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3cGfrExozQ
What, you seriously think that a large portion of the GOP strategy has nothing to do with race or identity politics?
Here's a pretty famous video :
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/dxhtvk/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-suppressing-the-vote
It's important to note the guy (Don Yelton, a GOP precinct chair) claimed that the voter id law in NC is not racist. It's meant to discriminate against democrats. Yes, he wound up being fired for all of these comments and it was 2 years ago, but it's still very relevant. The swing states look to be close this year and these laws are intentionally designed to help the GOP.
It boggles my mind when conservatives somehow act like these laws aren't intentionally meant to discriminate against a group of people for political purposes.
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Oh i certainly think that if Americas economy was reduced to third world status then gender identity and sexual identity issues would be forgotten about pretty quickly and thats something i see happening in my lifetime.
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On September 26 2016 09:15 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 09:05 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On September 26 2016 08:55 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2016 08:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
You can tell the posters in this thread are mostly democrat since every page the debate is about race, sexual identity and gender identity. Sorry, no infowars here. You need to go to reddit for that stuff. Whats infowars got to do with anything? I'm saying I'm tired of everything continually being brought back to race, gender identity and sexual identity. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3cGfrExozQ What, you seriously think that a large portion of the GOP strategy has nothing to do with race or identity politics? Here's a pretty famous video : http://www.cc.com/video-clips/dxhtvk/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-suppressing-the-voteIt's important to note the guy (Don Yelton, a GOP precinct chair) claimed that the voter id law in NC is not racist. It's meant to discriminate against democrats. Yes, he wound up being fired for all of these comments and it was 2 years ago, but it's still very relevant. The swing states look to be close this year and these laws are intentionally designed to help the GOP. It boggles my mind when conservatives somehow act like these laws aren't intentionally meant to discriminate against a group of people for political purposes.
Can't watch it, USA only.
I think this year there won't be a need to "suppress" the democrat vote - dem voter enthusiasm is way down compared to 2012 let alone 2008.
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Race place into all the GOPs politics, because they refuse to attempt to gain minority votes and fear their growing influence. Thus the NC voting law, which was rules by the court to "target blacks with surgical precision". The GOP also has been fighting maternity leave and abortion rights for decades now. They are still trying to defund planned parenthood and pass new laws restricting abortion clinics with unreasonable requirements to operate.
Race and gender are issues in politics, but not because the democrats make them issues.
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On September 26 2016 09:15 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 09:05 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On September 26 2016 08:55 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2016 08:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
You can tell the posters in this thread are mostly democrat since every page the debate is about race, sexual identity and gender identity. Sorry, no infowars here. You need to go to reddit for that stuff. Whats infowars got to do with anything? I'm saying I'm tired of everything continually being brought back to race, gender identity and sexual identity. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3cGfrExozQ What, you seriously think that a large portion of the GOP strategy has nothing to do with race or identity politics? Here's a pretty famous video : http://www.cc.com/video-clips/dxhtvk/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-suppressing-the-voteIt's important to note the guy (Don Yelton, a GOP precinct chair) claimed that the voter id law in NC is not racist. It's meant to discriminate against democrats. Yes, he wound up being fired for all of these comments and it was 2 years ago, but it's still very relevant. The swing states look to be close this year and these laws are intentionally designed to help the GOP. It boggles my mind when conservatives somehow act like these laws aren't intentionally meant to discriminate against a group of people for political purposes.
I saw an interview on John Oliver's show where the guy literally bragged about his piece of voting legislation having cost Obama a few % of the votes in his re-election. Even if it hadn't been targeted specifically at black people, if that is not purposefully corrupting the democratic process, then I don't know what is. These people are criminals and should be put to work in slave labour camps (not really). Something must be done to stop this kind of behaviour.
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I see some strange claims in here; but I'm at a loss how to respond. some are simply so far away, I just don't see how to reach them.
ah well, guess I'll just focus on general lobbying for improving educational quality.
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On September 26 2016 09:39 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 09:15 Nevuk wrote:On September 26 2016 09:05 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On September 26 2016 08:55 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2016 08:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
You can tell the posters in this thread are mostly democrat since every page the debate is about race, sexual identity and gender identity. Sorry, no infowars here. You need to go to reddit for that stuff. Whats infowars got to do with anything? I'm saying I'm tired of everything continually being brought back to race, gender identity and sexual identity. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3cGfrExozQ What, you seriously think that a large portion of the GOP strategy has nothing to do with race or identity politics? Here's a pretty famous video : http://www.cc.com/video-clips/dxhtvk/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-suppressing-the-voteIt's important to note the guy (Don Yelton, a GOP precinct chair) claimed that the voter id law in NC is not racist. It's meant to discriminate against democrats. Yes, he wound up being fired for all of these comments and it was 2 years ago, but it's still very relevant. The swing states look to be close this year and these laws are intentionally designed to help the GOP. It boggles my mind when conservatives somehow act like these laws aren't intentionally meant to discriminate against a group of people for political purposes. I saw an interview on John Oliver's show where the guy literally bragged about his piece of voting legislation having cost Obama a few % of the votes in his re-election. Even if it hadn't been targeted specifically at black people, if that is not purposefully corrupting the democratic process, then I don't know what is. These people are criminals and should be put to work in slave labour camps (not really). Something must be done to stop this kind of behaviour.
And let us not forget the recent Trump representative that blamed all racism on Obama. Like it didn't exist before that. They bemoan identity politics, but cannot stop talking about it.
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On September 26 2016 09:04 FiWiFaKi wrote:
edit: Also, from a scientific standpoint, I really question the validity of the research here done. If it's what I expect, that they ask 10 people how many Muslims do you think there are in your country, and 9 of them say five, and one person is trying to be a little shit and say 50, your average all of the sudden becomes 9.5% instead of 5% due to 10% outliers. Just one of many finer point that people don't think about before posting studies.
So you're calling bullshit on their scientific rigour based on your expectation of what they did?
If Trump somehow got 30% of the Black vote in the United States, he'd be the undisputed next president of the US... The media would have nothing to talk about. This is what, 14% of the US population, and even less of the voting population?
(Correct me if I'm wrong on the math here...) but if Trump got 30% of the black vote and only 50% of the white vote, I expect Clinton would be the next president.
Every person, and every group of people, has a say in the government of their country. Black people, or Muslims, are not at all special in that regard.
to a point where it's not even that far-fetched to say that white people don't decide the outcome of elections in the US.
White people don't unilaterally decide the outcome of elections in the US, no. Are you saying you think they should?
The votes of white people certainly has an impact on the outcome, almost certainly more than any other group. For instance, there would be zero chance of Trump winning the primary, let alone standing a chance in the general election, without them.
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United States42004 Posts
On September 26 2016 08:48 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 08:27 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2016 08:23 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote:
Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture. Its kind of the tactics that Leftists use in BLM, or the feminists. I would ask you to elaborate, but it know all your posts are pure bait and zero substance. No I've given plenty of well supported posts. But yet you still have those tinted glasses on.
Nope, you never respond whenever any of your posts are refuted. You say some dumb bullshit, someone refutes it completely and you say something different but equally dumb.
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On September 26 2016 09:15 biology]major wrote:
The point is simple, ideologies are far more dangerous than weapons. The left for the most part has neglected this aspect, and is so extreme in the opposite direction they literally can't call it what it is: radical Islam. I have 0 confidence in them being able to prevent these toxic ideas from slowly infiltrating the US like the virus that it is. Agree with you Fiwi, being islamaphobic is nothing to be ashamed of.
Ideologies are far more dangerous than weapons, yes. That's why you can't win the war against ISIS with bombs and border shutdowns and need to have the Muslim world that doesn't believe in the forcible formation of a global Islamic state on your side.
Which you won't get by fearing Islam itself, I assure you.
It's about as effective as fighting the Black Panthers by targeting black people or fighting the KKK by targeting white people. Or Israel by targeting Jewish people.
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On September 26 2016 10:55 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 08:48 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 26 2016 08:27 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2016 08:23 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote:
Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture. Its kind of the tactics that Leftists use in BLM, or the feminists. I would ask you to elaborate, but it know all your posts are pure bait and zero substance. No I've given plenty of well supported posts. But yet you still have those tinted glasses on. Nope, you never respond whenever any of your posts are refuted. You say some dumb bullshit, someone refutes it completely and you say something different but equally dumb.
No, most of the time, nobody have been able to refute stuff I say with logic but with a lot of feels.
All they do is start calling name and swear.
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On September 26 2016 11:23 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 10:55 KwarK wrote:On September 26 2016 08:48 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 26 2016 08:27 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2016 08:23 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote:
Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture. Its kind of the tactics that Leftists use in BLM, or the feminists. I would ask you to elaborate, but it know all your posts are pure bait and zero substance. No I've given plenty of well supported posts. But yet you still have those tinted glasses on. Nope, you never respond whenever any of your posts are refuted. You say some dumb bullshit, someone refutes it completely and you say something different but equally dumb. No, most of the time, nobody have been able to refute stuff I say with logic but with a lot of feels. All they do is start calling name and swear.
Kwark is right, you are just a bait lord who doesn't really do much but spout garbage and whine about the dreaded SJW.
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On September 26 2016 11:23 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 10:55 KwarK wrote:On September 26 2016 08:48 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 26 2016 08:27 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2016 08:23 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote:
Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture. Its kind of the tactics that Leftists use in BLM, or the feminists. I would ask you to elaborate, but it know all your posts are pure bait and zero substance. No I've given plenty of well supported posts. But yet you still have those tinted glasses on. Nope, you never respond whenever any of your posts are refuted. You say some dumb bullshit, someone refutes it completely and you say something different but equally dumb. No, most of the time, nobody have been able to refute stuff I say with logic but with a lot of feels. All they do is start calling name and swear.
question for clarity:
were there a few times where somebody soundly refuted what you said in this thread, or no times?
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On September 26 2016 08:29 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote:
Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture. My fear is not getting blown up by a bomb, my fear is that a generation or two from now you'll have a sizeable chunk of the population believing in something completely different than what you learned that define your country. A huge exaggeration, from the people in Europe that feel this way about the current situation there is that in 50 years we will all be wearing Turbans. I made it very clear that this is an exaggeration, and just a saying, so I'd prefer you don't attack it, I feel embarrassed that I even need to mention this. For my next argument, I realize that race isn't a perfect correlation to values, but it is fairly correlated, and it's the best we have for the sake of a reasonably simple argument. "Census: White majority in U.S. gone by 2043" http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/13/18934111-census-white-majority-in-us-gone-by-2043Now to some people it isn't troubling, that's fine, but when I look at Europe, and how rapidly their Muslim population has been rising... Combined with those surveys of Muslim people, and what percentage would have Sharia Law in their country if they could, or how many think death should be punishment for leaving Islam... Yeah, it can be a bit concerning. So yes, maybe you classify this as Islamophobia, if that's the case, fine, I guess I'm somewhat Islamophobic, but not without merit. You don't want this foreign influences having such a strong impact on what I like to call modernized tradition western values. The values where we embrace some of the newer things, whether that's judging people on their skin color, sex, or sexual preference... But keeping a lot of the American dream, work hard, become whatever you want so long you put in the time and effort. That's the America I want to see, not this soft-skin emotion wreck we have now where everything is offensive, one light-racist joke between your friends would get a blank stare from everyone in the room... So again, for me, it has nothing to do with skin color or any of that stuff, it's about respecting the values that the US (and hence the constitution is brought up so frequently, because it's the easiest way to get the point across), and more generally, the values western society was built on (in a slightly modified and modernized way)... And for that, you want to bring in people that are willing to reasonably assimilate. So for different people, different things resonate, and that's fine... But it's not like Trump implanted these ideas into peoples' heads. I've asked myself these things many time before, how to handle certain issues, and I went about them in different ways, but they share a lot of similarities. But anyway, with Trump it's all about the long term, something that I think your posts frequently miss Plansix.
So hold on, let's see if I'm understanding you right. This, as I understand it, is what's been said so far:
-You started by saying that yes, Trump says crazy shit (I assume that includes racist comments like "Mexicans are rapists"), but it's all good because it works to bring attention to important issues that people otherwise ignore.
-Regarding the quote of him claiming to hold a racist belief and treat other people on the basis of that belief back in the 90's, you say that sure, he said that, and you don't necessarily agree with that, but the 90's is a long time ago and everybody was a bit racist back then, and surely he's changed since then.
-I ask, if he claimed to hold a racist belief in the 90's, and people don't usually change their minds on such beliefs at his age, and he's made no indication that he's changed his mind on those beliefs, and he still says racist shit, why do you think he's not racist? And you say that he's a successful businessman, and to be a successful businessman you have to be meritocratic, so if he's meritocratic he can't be racist. (This logic, if valid, would appear to prove that anyone who has succeeded in business must, therefore, not be racist)
-Then you cite as one of your worries the fact that, according to census data and predictive modeling, the US will no longer be majority white in ~30 years, and you see this as concerning.
First of all, I ask again: wouldn't it be easier for you to just admit that a guy who's said and done racist things in the past, made no indication that he regrets those racist things or has tried to become not racist, and continues to say racist things, is probably a racist? Second of all, you do understand that "we don't hate anyone, we just think the US ought to remain majority white" is what basically every white supremacist ever has said?
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United States42004 Posts
On September 26 2016 11:23 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 10:55 KwarK wrote:On September 26 2016 08:48 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 26 2016 08:27 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2016 08:23 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote:
Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture. Its kind of the tactics that Leftists use in BLM, or the feminists. I would ask you to elaborate, but it know all your posts are pure bait and zero substance. No I've given plenty of well supported posts. But yet you still have those tinted glasses on. Nope, you never respond whenever any of your posts are refuted. You say some dumb bullshit, someone refutes it completely and you say something different but equally dumb. No, most of the time, nobody have been able to refute stuff I say with logic but with a lot of feels. All they do is start calling name and swear.
This is something that you feel to be true but is not reflective of reality. Just like when you felt it to be true that the Founders would not engage in overseas policing and I had to explain what the Barbary Pirates were to you, at which point you refused acknowledge I'd said anything and said something else easily refuted. You're just wholly ignorant of issues, current and past, in addition to the history of your own country.
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