In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On September 26 2016 02:56 LegalLord wrote: Trump isn't the super-Hitler that many of his detractors, including some of the most vocal liberals in here, make him out to be. He is problematic in that he is prone to lying and hyperbole, but he does also address a lot of genuine issues that the mainstream political establishment tends to completely write off. Their response to him is in part a fear of how he would upend a lot of ideas currently being pushed, like trade and interventionism, that have colossal support from the leadership but not so much from the population.
Doesn't mean he'd make a great president though. Personally I don't see this as the right way to effect positive change.
Trump does address a lot of issues that need to be addressed that the Left is scared to talk about.
The problem is that Trump addresses them in all the wrong ways.
Maybe to you.
But Trump know that this is the only way to win the election.
The presidency is a race to see who have the most interesting storyline and have been for years.
Yeah, I agree here. I know on the surface Trump seems crazy with how he says things...
But I really do wonder how another candidate could pull the stuff he's pulling out, and getting people to fight for these issues.
To me it just seems tough to run a campaign that is against free immigration and free market economies with a "stronger together, coexistence, leave nobody behind" type of message. Either way, what I see as absolutely true is that Trump has done such an amazing job uniting all his supporters behind him.
On the other hand, Hillary has some seems to have many different kinds in high quantities, from Bernie bros, SJW type, anti-Trump, fiscal conservatives, and many different minority communities that have completely different interests.
Meanwhile to me Trump has two groups - people like me, and most of us here that support him on TL, and then the very traditional and religious population. Of course he has some trouble groups, like racists and whatnot, but Hillary has her fair share as well.
I think that Trump supporters feel that if Trump gets into presidency, there will be changes.
While with Hillary, not much will change and America at its current state CLEARLY needs change.
I guess that's accurate. It's just that the non-Trump supporters disagree that ANY change is necessarily better than the status quo, and seriously believe Trump's change would be a definite change for the worse.
Don't believe what the media tell ya.
Actually go and watch the candidates' speeches.
What I mean by that is that a couple of months ago, the Left biased media smeared Trump by saying how Trump wants to get rid of ALL Mexican when he CLEARLY said that he wants to take the illegals out.
Not only that, he also said that he is willing to let in the useful immigrants in which would actually be beneficial to those illegal immigrants that aren't getting the proper pay and can't get social benefit due to their statuses.
That's the same thing with how the media use to make outrages (or still are) over "gender wage gap" or "campus rape stats" without looking at the big picture because of the SJW industry.
Then the media said that Trump is a racist for not letting in Muslim people in. Well religion isn't a race, there are plenty of non-Muslim Syrians.
I personally think that of course there is a possibility that Trump might screw up with foreign policies due to his temperament but Hillary is also a globalist that doesn't necessary look out for the American people.
Yeah, but being Black isn't a race either if you go that route... One of the synonyms for islamophobia is anti-Muslim racism. And he wasn't talking about preventing Syrians from entering, he was talking about all foreign Muslims. Solely based on the fact that they are Muslims.
Drastic times call for drastic measures (I agree with Trump that the US is running out of time, you'll quickly have a population that doesn't respect many of the values that allowed the US to go from a British colony to a global superpower).
In WW2, Canada put all its Japanese citizen into internment camps, this is Canada we're talking about, and 70 years ago. Yes, things have changed, but this is roughly 100x more extreme, in Canada, and only 70 years ago. We've apologized for it since then.
Yes, there is merit for what Trump is proposing, and saying there isn't is just ignorance. That said, there are also plenty of costs, and it will come down to a cost-benefit analysis of the two outcomes, and how much danger we see Islamic terrorism as, etc.
You have a tendency to try and make the other person's argument seem outrageous and then discarding it without having any argument of your own whatsoever, I would be happy if you didn't do that (just like how two pages back I mentioned Hitler and obese people, so automatically my argument must be void, again whatever logical fallacy that is).
Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture.
On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote: Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture.
Its kind of the tactics that Leftists use in BLM, or the feminists.
On September 26 2016 02:56 LegalLord wrote: Trump isn't the super-Hitler that many of his detractors, including some of the most vocal liberals in here, make him out to be. He is problematic in that he is prone to lying and hyperbole, but he does also address a lot of genuine issues that the mainstream political establishment tends to completely write off. Their response to him is in part a fear of how he would upend a lot of ideas currently being pushed, like trade and interventionism, that have colossal support from the leadership but not so much from the population.
Doesn't mean he'd make a great president though. Personally I don't see this as the right way to effect positive change.
Trump does address a lot of issues that need to be addressed that the Left is scared to talk about.
The problem is that Trump addresses them in all the wrong ways.
Maybe to you.
But Trump know that this is the only way to win the election.
The presidency is a race to see who have the most interesting storyline and have been for years.
Yeah, I agree here. I know on the surface Trump seems crazy with how he says things...
But I really do wonder how another candidate could pull the stuff he's pulling out, and getting people to fight for these issues.
To me it just seems tough to run a campaign that is against free immigration and free market economies with a "stronger together, coexistence, leave nobody behind" type of message. Either way, what I see as absolutely true is that Trump has done such an amazing job uniting all his supporters behind him.
On the other hand, Hillary has some seems to have many different kinds in high quantities, from Bernie bros, SJW type, anti-Trump, fiscal conservatives, and many different minority communities that have completely different interests.
Meanwhile to me Trump has two groups - people like me, and most of us here that support him on TL, and then the very traditional and religious population. Of course he has some trouble groups, like racists and whatnot, but Hillary has her fair share as well.
I think that Trump supporters feel that if Trump gets into presidency, there will be changes.
While with Hillary, not much will change and America at its current state CLEARLY needs change.
I guess that's accurate. It's just that the non-Trump supporters disagree that ANY change is necessarily better than the status quo, and seriously believe Trump's change would be a definite change for the worse.
Don't believe what the media tell ya.
Actually go and watch the candidates' speeches.
What I mean by that is that a couple of months ago, the Left biased media smeared Trump by saying how Trump wants to get rid of ALL Mexican when he CLEARLY said that he wants to take the illegals out.
Not only that, he also said that he is willing to let in the useful immigrants in which would actually be beneficial to those illegal immigrants that aren't getting the proper pay and can't get social benefit due to their statuses.
That's the same thing with how the media use to make outrages (or still are) over "gender wage gap" or "campus rape stats" without looking at the big picture because of the SJW industry.
Then the media said that Trump is a racist for not letting in Muslim people in. Well religion isn't a race, there are plenty of non-Muslim Syrians.
I personally think that of course there is a possibility that Trump might screw up with foreign policies due to his temperament but Hillary is also a globalist that doesn't necessary look out for the American people.
Yeah, but being Black isn't a race either if you go that route... One of the synonyms for islamophobia is anti-Muslim racism. And he wasn't talking about preventing Syrians from entering, he was talking about all foreign Muslims. Solely based on the fact that they are Muslims.
technically speaking he was talking about all Muslims and not just foreigners the first day he announced it. When asked if that would include American Muslims like Soldiers being out of the country or people returning from plain vacation his spokeswoman confirmed "all Muslims". He did backpaddle that a day later and said that US Soldiers who left the country, happen to be Muslim and want to come back should probably be allowed back into the country as long as there's some added security and screening iirc
On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote: Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture.
Its kind of the tactics that Leftists use in BLM, or the feminists.
I would ask you to elaborate, but it know all your posts are pure bait and zero substance.
On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote: Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture.
My fear is not getting blown up by a bomb, my fear is that a generation or two from now you'll have a sizeable chunk of the population believing in something completely different than what you learned that define your country.
A huge exaggeration, from the people in Europe that feel this way about the current situation there is that in 50 years we will all be wearing Turbans. I made it very clear that this is an exaggeration, and just a saying, so I'd prefer you don't attack it, I feel embarrassed that I even need to mention this.
For my next argument, I realize that race isn't a perfect correlation to values, but it is fairly correlated, and it's the best we have for the sake of a reasonably simple argument.
Now to some people it isn't troubling, that's fine, but when I look at Europe, and how rapidly their Muslim population has been rising... Combined with those surveys of Muslim people, and what percentage would have Sharia Law in their country if they could, or how many think death should be punishment for leaving Islam... Yeah, it can be a bit concerning.
So yes, maybe you classify this as Islamophobia, if that's the case, fine, I guess I'm somewhat Islamophobic, but not without merit. You don't want this foreign influences having such a strong impact on what I like to call modernized tradition western values. The values where we embrace some of the newer things, whether that's judging people on their skin color, sex, or sexual preference... But keeping a lot of the American dream, work hard, become whatever you want so long you put in the time and effort. That's the America I want to see, not this soft-skin emotion wreck we have now where everything is offensive, one light-racist joke between your friends would get a blank stare from everyone in the room...
So again, for me, it has nothing to do with skin color or any of that stuff, it's about respecting the values that the US (and hence the constitution is brought up so frequently, because it's the easiest way to get the point across), and more generally, the values western society was built on (in a slightly modified and modernized way)... And for that, you want to bring in people that are willing to reasonably assimilate.
So for different people, different things resonate, and that's fine... But it's not like Trump implanted these ideas into peoples' heads. I've asked myself these things many time before, how to handle certain issues, and I went about them in different ways, but they share a lot of similarities. But anyway, with Trump it's all about the long term, something that I think your posts frequently miss Plansix.
It's why Trump has been speaking about the issues for years and years (since and before 1980), it's not like he has a 1 year plan to magically solve all the US problems.
On September 26 2016 02:56 LegalLord wrote: Trump isn't the super-Hitler that many of his detractors, including some of the most vocal liberals in here, make him out to be. He is problematic in that he is prone to lying and hyperbole, but he does also address a lot of genuine issues that the mainstream political establishment tends to completely write off. Their response to him is in part a fear of how he would upend a lot of ideas currently being pushed, like trade and interventionism, that have colossal support from the leadership but not so much from the population.
Doesn't mean he'd make a great president though. Personally I don't see this as the right way to effect positive change.
Trump does address a lot of issues that need to be addressed that the Left is scared to talk about.
The problem is that Trump addresses them in all the wrong ways.
Maybe to you.
But Trump know that this is the only way to win the election.
The presidency is a race to see who have the most interesting storyline and have been for years.
Yeah, I agree here. I know on the surface Trump seems crazy with how he says things...
But I really do wonder how another candidate could pull the stuff he's pulling out, and getting people to fight for these issues.
To me it just seems tough to run a campaign that is against free immigration and free market economies with a "stronger together, coexistence, leave nobody behind" type of message. Either way, what I see as absolutely true is that Trump has done such an amazing job uniting all his supporters behind him.
On the other hand, Hillary has some seems to have many different kinds in high quantities, from Bernie bros, SJW type, anti-Trump, fiscal conservatives, and many different minority communities that have completely different interests.
Meanwhile to me Trump has two groups - people like me, and most of us here that support him on TL, and then the very traditional and religious population. Of course he has some trouble groups, like racists and whatnot, but Hillary has her fair share as well.
I think that Trump supporters feel that if Trump gets into presidency, there will be changes.
While with Hillary, not much will change and America at its current state CLEARLY needs change.
I guess that's accurate. It's just that the non-Trump supporters disagree that ANY change is necessarily better than the status quo, and seriously believe Trump's change would be a definite change for the worse.
Don't believe what the media tell ya.
Actually go and watch the candidates' speeches.
What I mean by that is that a couple of months ago, the Left biased media smeared Trump by saying how Trump wants to get rid of ALL Mexican when he CLEARLY said that he wants to take the illegals out.
Not only that, he also said that he is willing to let in the useful immigrants in which would actually be beneficial to those illegal immigrants that aren't getting the proper pay and can't get social benefit due to their statuses.
That's the same thing with how the media use to make outrages (or still are) over "gender wage gap" or "campus rape stats" without looking at the big picture because of the SJW industry.
Then the media said that Trump is a racist for not letting in Muslim people in. Well religion isn't a race, there are plenty of non-Muslim Syrians.
I personally think that of course there is a possibility that Trump might screw up with foreign policies due to his temperament but Hillary is also a globalist that doesn't necessary look out for the American people.
Yeah, but being Black isn't a race either if you go that route... One of the synonyms for islamophobia is anti-Muslim racism. And he wasn't talking about preventing Syrians from entering, he was talking about all foreign Muslims. Solely based on the fact that they are Muslims.
Drastic times call for drastic measures (I agree with Trump that the US is running out of time, you'll quickly have a population that doesn't respect many of the values that allowed the US to go from a British colony to a global superpower).
In WW2, Canada put all its Japanese citizen into internment camps, this is Canada we're talking about, and 70 years ago. Yes, things have changed, but this is roughly 100x more extreme, in Canada, and only 70 years ago. We've apologized for it since then.
Yes, there is merit for what Trump is proposing, and saying there isn't is just ignorance. That said, there are also plenty of costs, and it will come down to a cost-benefit analysis of the two outcomes, and how much danger we see Islamic terrorism as, etc.
You have a tendency to try and make the other person's argument seem outrageous and then discarding it without having any argument of your own whatsoever, I would be happy if you didn't do that (just like how two pages back I mentioned Hitler and obese people, so automatically my argument must be void, again whatever logical fallacy that is).
You have a tendency to confuse me with other posters, I would be happy if you didn't do that. I merely asked other people if they understood the bolded part of your post, because the way you jumped from meritocracy to “well not like Hitler” to morbid obesity simply didn't make any sense in my eyes. I didn't even say that your argument was void since I couldn't get it. But whatever.
Do you know what is ISIS' strategy? They want to destroy the coexistence area (the “grayzone”) between Muslims and non-Muslims and polarize both groups in such a way that Muslims get persecuted and join them (ISIS) in their criminal crusade. Guess what a dumb, inefficient and racist collective punishment like what Trump proposed does? It exactly plays into ISIS' hands and validates all their conspirationnist/delirious/paranoid theses. “See, 'Murica hates you, go kill all the infidels1!1!!!1” You know, those guys actually love bineuronal, Manichean creatures like George W. Bush: https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/665337881351729152/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw And Trump seems to be exactly in the same vein.
Oh, and speaking of drastic measures... What about torture, which was already tried with Guantanamo. Was a brilliant success, eh? Turns out that Trump is favorable to this. If he stupidly plays the game by his opponent's rules, giving them precisely what they want, and can't even learn from blatant mistakes, what good will he able to do exactly?
On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote: Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture.
Its kind of the tactics that Leftists use in BLM, or the feminists.
The bait is real here. By the way, pro tip: true right-wingers trolls don't say “feminists” but “feminazis”. Upgrade your baiting software to the last version!
The white majority is going away in the US no matter what we do. Whites in general are having fewer children and inter marrying. Our population is either shrinking or stagnant while the minority populations are growing. There is nothing we can do about it. Well nothing we can do about it that isn't completely terrible and would destroy the country if we tried.
And fearing Islam something we shouldn't be worried about. That religion has been in the country for decades without issue and the terrorism that has recently risen out of it still represents a minor threat to the population as a whole. If Christianity is still having trouble getting a foothold in law and the government nation wide, after 200 years, Islam stands zero chance.
On September 26 2016 02:56 LegalLord wrote: Trump isn't the super-Hitler that many of his detractors, including some of the most vocal liberals in here, make him out to be. He is problematic in that he is prone to lying and hyperbole, but he does also address a lot of genuine issues that the mainstream political establishment tends to completely write off. Their response to him is in part a fear of how he would upend a lot of ideas currently being pushed, like trade and interventionism, that have colossal support from the leadership but not so much from the population.
Doesn't mean he'd make a great president though. Personally I don't see this as the right way to effect positive change.
Trump does address a lot of issues that need to be addressed that the Left is scared to talk about.
The problem is that Trump addresses them in all the wrong ways.
Maybe to you.
But Trump know that this is the only way to win the election.
The presidency is a race to see who have the most interesting storyline and have been for years.
Yeah, I agree here. I know on the surface Trump seems crazy with how he says things...
But I really do wonder how another candidate could pull the stuff he's pulling out, and getting people to fight for these issues.
To me it just seems tough to run a campaign that is against free immigration and free market economies with a "stronger together, coexistence, leave nobody behind" type of message. Either way, what I see as absolutely true is that Trump has done such an amazing job uniting all his supporters behind him.
On the other hand, Hillary has some seems to have many different kinds in high quantities, from Bernie bros, SJW type, anti-Trump, fiscal conservatives, and many different minority communities that have completely different interests.
Meanwhile to me Trump has two groups - people like me, and most of us here that support him on TL, and then the very traditional and religious population. Of course he has some trouble groups, like racists and whatnot, but Hillary has her fair share as well.
I think that Trump supporters feel that if Trump gets into presidency, there will be changes.
While with Hillary, not much will change and America at its current state CLEARLY needs change.
I guess that's accurate. It's just that the non-Trump supporters disagree that ANY change is necessarily better than the status quo, and seriously believe Trump's change would be a definite change for the worse.
Don't believe what the media tell ya.
Actually go and watch the candidates' speeches.
What I mean by that is that a couple of months ago, the Left biased media smeared Trump by saying how Trump wants to get rid of ALL Mexican when he CLEARLY said that he wants to take the illegals out.
Not only that, he also said that he is willing to let in the useful immigrants in which would actually be beneficial to those illegal immigrants that aren't getting the proper pay and can't get social benefit due to their statuses.
That's the same thing with how the media use to make outrages (or still are) over "gender wage gap" or "campus rape stats" without looking at the big picture because of the SJW industry.
Then the media said that Trump is a racist for not letting in Muslim people in. Well religion isn't a race, there are plenty of non-Muslim Syrians.
I personally think that of course there is a possibility that Trump might screw up with foreign policies due to his temperament but Hillary is also a globalist that doesn't necessary look out for the American people.
Yeah, but being Black isn't a race either if you go that route... One of the synonyms for islamophobia is anti-Muslim racism. And he wasn't talking about preventing Syrians from entering, he was talking about all foreign Muslims. Solely based on the fact that they are Muslims.
technically speaking he was talking about all Muslims and not just foreigners the first day he announced it. When asked if that would include American Muslims like Soldiers being out of the country or people returning from plain vacation his spokeswoman confirmed "all Muslims". He did backpaddle that a day later and said that US Soldiers who left the country, happen to be Muslim and want to come back should probably be allowed back into the country as long as there's some added security and screening iirc
Hahaha, I wasn't sure and actually added foreign at the last moment. Didn't think it was that bad.
On September 26 2016 08:41 Plansix wrote: The white majority is going away in the US no matter what we do. Whites in general are having fewer children and inter marrying. Our population is either shrinking or stagnant while the minority populations are growing. There is nothing we can do about it. Well nothing we can do about it that isn't completely terrible and would destroy the country if we tried.
And fearing Islam something we shouldn't be worried about. That religion has been in the country for decades without issue and the terrorism that has recently risen out of it still represents a minor threat to the population as a whole. If Christianity is still having trouble getting a foothold in law and the government nation wide, after 200 years, Islam stands zero chance.
Hence why I said it's not that big of an issue for me whether the white majority stays or not (would I prefer if White people had more children, sure)... For me it's about the values staying.
You're right, if people think the way that the current Christians and Atheists/Agnostics think about religion and government, I agree. But that's a big if, my Israeli and Muslim colleagues both in general would prefer closer integration between state and religion, so it is a small sample size, and I don't have a paper backing it up, but I do have an inclination that non-Western views put these two closer together, and hence the fear, and hence bringing up the large percentage of Muslim population wanting fairly extreme things in society by our standards.
On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote: Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture.
Its kind of the tactics that Leftists use in BLM, or the feminists.
I would ask you to elaborate, but it know all your posts are pure bait and zero substance.
On September 26 2016 08:18 Plansix wrote: Islamic terrorism isn't any more pressing than any other danger to the US. In face, the FBI and other government agencies rate internal threats from sovereign citizen groups and domestic terrorism to be a bigger threat. It's one of the reasons I dislike Trump is that he amplifies peoples fears, rather than try to put the, in context to the bigger picture.
Its kind of the tactics that Leftists use in BLM, or the feminists.
The bait is real here. By the way, pro tip: true right-wingers trolls don't say “feminists” but “feminazis”. Upgrade your baiting software to the last version!
Yeah I'm not a right-winger though.
Don't call anything you disagree with as "troll".
Some people actually have concerns with what direction the country is turning.
I have meet plenty of Muslims and none of them have advocated for these extreme, yet vaguely defined, things that people on the internet claim Muslims are pushing for. I'm am sure there are folks out there that want it, but there is no way they reach a population size fast enough to enact those changes or change the remaining public's view of secular government. Plus the separation of church and state.
On September 26 2016 08:51 Plansix wrote: I have meet plenty of Muslims and none of them have advocated for these extreme, yet vaguely defined, things that people on the internet claim Muslims are pushing for. I'm am sure there are folks out there that want it, but there is no way they reach a population size fast enough to enact those changes or change the remaining public's view of secular government. Plus the separation of church and state.
There's been plenty of research on this topic, and it's been posted here dozens, if not a hundred times.
If you haven't seen it, I'll leave the onus on you to research for yourself.
@Plansix You're the one who started calling me a "kid" in our previous argument, so I'm not sure you should be the one to berate other posters on this thread.
On September 26 2016 08:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: You can tell the posters in this thread are mostly democrat since every page the debate is about race, sexual identity and gender identity.
Sorry, no infowars here. You need to go to reddit for that stuff.
On September 26 2016 08:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: Now to some people it isn't troubling, that's fine, but when I look at Europe, and how rapidly their Muslim population has been rising...
Rose so rapidly that there is now a terrifying proportion of... 6% Muslims in Europe (factoring in the countries with a majority of Muslim in South East Europe). Guess we'll have to wait a few centuries before wearing turbans, uh? But medias did such a nice propaganda job that they managed to convince millions of people of the existence of an unstoppable force:
On September 26 2016 08:53 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: You can tell the posters in this thread are mostly democrat since every page the debate is about race, sexual identity and gender identity.
You can tell the posters in this thread are mostly conservative because people keep dredging these things up.
Compared to the Canada/UK/EU threads, which are generally lefter than Americans and these things barely get brought up (except immigration in EU).
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.levif.be/medias/3483/1783681.jpg)
