|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 23 2016 18:37 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 15:54 bo1b wrote:
The counterpoint to that Danglars is the immense snap back to normalicy (and a bit further to the right) across the western world.
I have serious doubts if the Brexit would have passed or if Trump would have got through the primaries without the utter absurdity of left wing crusaders.
Every genius that proudly proclaims that Black people can't be racist, or that every white person needs to check learn their priviledge is doing nothing but hurt themselves. If the way of expressing disagreement with leftists going too far is voting for candidates who legitimize the leftist fears, it's hard to argue that they were going too far in the first place...
"If stop and frisk policies are going to induce minorities into killing each other at a ridiculous rate then it's hard to argue against it."
Absurd strawman aside, left wing ideology is trying to ram down as much as they possibly can at once, a good amount people instinctively distrust. Every time religion of peace is mentioned people know just what state nations with significant populations of muslims look like.
Heres a question, why on earth is it that riots innevitably occur after a black man is shot (not endorcing this at all), and we hear about fucking all of them that can even be considered not completely justified, yet with 500+ white dudes shot each year... crickets.
The media has been pushing this race war, going to university in Australia (!) has the occasional blm showing (like fucking why?), and anyone with a functional brain knows that being morbidly obese is not good for you (don't dare speak out about it).
Tl;dr the rising rate of sjw's has prompted a dramatic over correction to the right.
|
On September 23 2016 18:55 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 18:37 Nebuchad wrote:On September 23 2016 15:54 bo1b wrote:
The counterpoint to that Danglars is the immense snap back to normalicy (and a bit further to the right) across the western world.
I have serious doubts if the Brexit would have passed or if Trump would have got through the primaries without the utter absurdity of left wing crusaders.
Every genius that proudly proclaims that Black people can't be racist, or that every white person needs to check learn their priviledge is doing nothing but hurt themselves. If the way of expressing disagreement with leftists going too far is voting for candidates who legitimize the leftist fears, it's hard to argue that they were going too far in the first place... "If stop and frisk policies are going to induce minorities into killing each other at a ridiculous rate then it's hard to argue against it."
All right, this isn't going to go well if this is the first thing you answer.
I just mean that if there is actually a reaction that goes something like: "I'm tired of the left saying that too many people are racists when they aren't, let me vote for Donald Trump as a reaction to that", this is kind of a demonstration that the leftist person wasn't wrong...
|
Trump is the right wing version of Bernie, existing for the sake of protesting and espousing the views more extreme to them.
Were this still the nominations, the Charlotte town riots probably would have been a bump for both him and Trump.
|
Hillary Clinton on Thursday announced an increase to her proposed top estate tax rate in her latest nod to Sen. Bernie Sanders and the progressive wing of her Democratic Party.
Clinton has repeatedly called to put a larger tax burden on the wealthiest Americans to boost investment in infrastructure and job creation. The revision will put a 65 percent tax rate on estates valued at $1 billion or more per couple, the Clinton campaign said Thursday.
In 2016, estate tax returns must be filed for estates valued at $5.5 million or more, according to the Internal Revenue Service. The top rate currently sits at about 40 percent, while Clinton had previously proposed an increase to 45 percent on inherited property.
Sanders, Clinton's populist primary opponent, had previously proposed that top rate, which the Republican Party quickly criticized Thursday. Clinton's GOP opponent Donald Trump has called for an outright elimination of the so-called "death tax," a proposal Clinton and other critics have contended would help Trump himself.
The pair have offered contradicting visions for taxes, with Clinton promising to put a larger burden on the wealthiest Americans through a surcharge and the elimination of loopholes. Trump has touted across the board tax cuts, which could balloon the national deficit, though he has also pledged to cut some loopholes for wealthy Americans.
Trump's campaign in a statement called the revision "an even more dramatic hike in the death tax." Clinton's campaign claims her changes would affect four out of every 1,000 estates. Only 223 estate taxpayers had estates with reported values of $50 million or more in 2014, according to the Washington Post.
Sanders emboldened many progressive Democrats and independents with his Democratic primary run, leaving some looking for an alternative to Clinton in the general election. The Green Party's Jill Stein garnered 3 percent of support in the latest NBC/ Wall Street Journalpoll released Wednesday.
Clinton has walked a tightrope of appealing to disillusioned Democrats while attempting to court moderates unhappy with the bombastic Trump.
Source
|
On September 23 2016 16:19 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 15:54 bo1b wrote:
The counterpoint to that Danglars is the immense snap back to normalicy (and a bit further to the right) across the western world.
I have serious doubts if the Brexit would have passed or if Trump would have got through the primaries without the utter absurdity of left wing crusaders.
Every genius that proudly proclaims that Black people can't be racist, or that every white person needs to check learn their priviledge is doing nothing but hurt themselves. To the right? To the extremes is more accurate. Extreme left parties are gaining as well. I.e. Corbyn, Syriza, Podemos, Sanders and the hardcore left party in my own country (SP) has been gaining for years as well.
Neither Corbyn nor Syriza nor Podemos nor Sanders are “extreme left” lol...
|
United States42986 Posts
On September 23 2016 19:51 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 16:19 RvB wrote:On September 23 2016 15:54 bo1b wrote:
The counterpoint to that Danglars is the immense snap back to normalicy (and a bit further to the right) across the western world.
I have serious doubts if the Brexit would have passed or if Trump would have got through the primaries without the utter absurdity of left wing crusaders.
Every genius that proudly proclaims that Black people can't be racist, or that every white person needs to check learn their priviledge is doing nothing but hurt themselves. To the right? To the extremes is more accurate. Extreme left parties are gaining as well. I.e. Corbyn, Syriza, Podemos, Sanders and the hardcore left party in my own country (SP) has been gaining for years as well. Neither Corbyn nor Syriza nor Podemos nor Sanders are “extreme left” lol...
They are if you accept the narrative that the world started the year Reagan was elected. But yeah, if you don't then Corbyn is basically just a normal Labour MP from the postwar years.
|
Again, I love how many people come in here talking of "leftist policy" as if the vast majority of state governments aren't run by Republicans.
|
On September 23 2016 19:59 farvacola wrote:
Again, I love how many people come in here talking of "leftist policy" as if the vast majority of state governments aren't run by Republicans.
Newsflash, politics occasionally leaves the senate.
|
On September 23 2016 20:09 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 19:59 farvacola wrote:
Again, I love how many people come in here talking of "leftist policy" as if the vast majority of state governments aren't run by Republicans. Newsflash, politics occasionally leaves the senate.
What?
|
|
|
But don't you see? That's all out of context! He is really not sexist at all!
Edit: challenge for fiwi, xdaunt and other Trump apologists in here. Please find contexts in which even a few of those sound bytes are acceptable...
|
On September 23 2016 20:10 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 20:09 bo1b wrote:On September 23 2016 19:59 farvacola wrote:
Again, I love how many people come in here talking of "leftist policy" as if the vast majority of state governments aren't run by Republicans. Newsflash, politics occasionally leaves the senate. What?
It means the majority of state government being republican has literally nothing to do with the overwhelming leftist sentiment in public places like university, the job place etc.
|
On September 23 2016 18:42 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 17:16 ChristianS wrote:On September 23 2016 15:49 Danglars wrote:On September 23 2016 15:03 ChristianS wrote:
Jesus this thread is depressing sometimes.
The last ~24 hours of discussion have put a sobering thought into my head, and I wonder what you guys think of it. Basically, in the last 50 or so years, there's been a strong anti-racist movement in the country as a whole. Laws that discriminate against blacks became widely considered unacceptable, public figures are shunned for expressing racist ideas or using racist epithets. The implied justification was that we as a society were making a concerted effort to eliminate racism as much as possible, and drive whatever resistant strains that survived to . Considered with other historical moves towards equality (elimination of slavery, blacks joining the military, Brown v. Board, etc.), it fit nicely with an overarching narrative of racial progress.
Maybe this is just a problem with anecdotal evidence, but it seems to me those attitudes are completely different in a lot of people today. Hardened Trump supporters often try to deny that Trump is a racist, but far more frequently I see people that just don't seem to care much. They might even lean toward thinking he probably is, but it's just not that important an issue. This is really baffling to me, since for my whole life there's been a widespread cultural agreement that overt racism is one of the ugliest sides of human civilization and absolutely cannot be tolerated, but in the broad view of history, racism is absolutely the norm. Not always as bad as early American South racism, but it's always been pretty normal to distrust people with different cultural and ethnic background than you, treat them worse, value their life less than that of your family or friends or tribe members. I always figured that was just part of progress – unlike humans for most of history, we have cars and refrigerators and computers and a prevailing cultural understanding that racism is bad. It's a nice stroll through memory lane, but you make a sudden leap into modern times by contrasting the civil rights era with Trump and his supporters. Sit at the back of the bus was racism. Separate eating establishments based on race was racism. Immigration policy isn't. Political invective on several issues isn't (though abrasive speech will still cause others to bristle no matter the subject). You're right to call it anecdotal, and it's intensely subjective. You'll see the comparisons to late 1800s racism and xenophobia, others will see you as a wannabe crusader longing for a bygone era but without a real civil rights cause today. Worth noting I never said Trump's immigration policy means he's racist. I was honestly more focused on Trump himself. Being prosecuted by Nixon's Justice Department for really explicitly discriminating against black tenants in his hotels back in the 70's. That stuff by Jack O'Donnell about how when he was president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino, Trump went off about not wanting a black guy as an accountant because blacks are lazy, and he only wants Jews counting his money. Calling Mexicans rapists. Those shitty stereotypes he embraced talking to the Republican Jewish Coalition. Y'know, that stuff. But I wasn't really looking to pick a fight either. I don't really long to be a civil rights crusader. The 50's and 60's sound awful, and I'm glad I didn't have to be around for it. I honestly wish that we were having a relatively normal election between, like, Tim Kaine and Jeb Bush, and I could tune out and read the occasional headline without click on it and maybe get around to registering to vote if I had nothing better to do, but I probably never would because I wouldn't care that much who won. Instead we've got a large, disgruntled population of lower- and middle-class white people who feel that they've been wronged by the world. They think they used to have some kind of glory and power, but now their manufacturing jobs are fading away and they're losing their privileged place in the world, and they feel betrayed and unsafe and powerless. We've got a demagogue candidate who's appealing to this population by telling them that they lost their power because of Mexicans and Muslims and China. He's parading around families of people that were raped or murdered by illegal Mexicans to gin up a rage against these foreigners that are raping and murdering their wives and children. He's saying the whole world is laughing at them because they don't win any more. And he's promising them that if they support him, then by the time he's done, nobody will laugh at them again. This is not a drill, this is how real life racial persecution gets started. This is the type of movement that used to lead to pogroms and lynchings and blood libel. People get so caught up in the movement and the propaganda and the cult of personality around a charismatic leader that they stop paying attention to facts and policy, to the point that you can explain to them that the crime rate is down, not up, that they lost their manufacturing jobs to the inexorable forces of globalism and no one can bring them back, and that illegal immigrants actually commit violent crime at a lower rate than the rest of the population, but it has absolutely no bearing on how they feel. My sobering thought was this: what if we're not on an inevitable march toward progress and greater racial equality? What if the anti-racist attitudes of the last 50 years aren't a lasting cultural achievement, but just a temporary backlash against the ugly racism of the 40's and 50's? People saw how hideous that Nazi movement was, and they saw the horrible treatment of blacks in the South, and the lynching of Emmett Till, and the dogs and firehoses deployed against civil rights protesters, and for a while it became fashionable to be against racism.
But now that all that stuff isn't such recent memory, racism takes on all of the advantages that made it prevalent in human society before. Scapegoating is an easy way to feel better about your problems. Stereotyping is almost inescapable in the psychology of how humans understand the world. Many apparent virtues that people are encouraged to cultivate (e.g. loyalty, empathy) can subconsciously promote tribalism (e.g. loyalty involves favoring those you're close to over those you're not, empathy encourages greater connection to people who are more like you). Racial minorities are often small enough in number that society can get weird impressions of them simply from having too small a sample size, and once a weird (especially negative) bias gets in place, confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy effects tend to maintain or expand that bias.
I've been hoping all the bigotry of the Trump movement would be remembered by history as a weird spike of bigotry as the white American middle class came to terms with several realities it had been in denial about for years. But what if history remembers these past ~50 years as that brief period where American society was largely anti-racist? My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature. I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed. Seems like you're throwing out a lot of punches at stuff I'm not sure if you're assuming I support. I'm also not sure what's meant by terms like "racial realism." It seems to denote a position which acknowledges the realities of race (about which this "regressive left" is presumably in denial), but I'm not sure what realities you think those are. A white supremacist might say they're a "racial realist" for acknowledging that white people are better than black people. An SJW might call themselves a "racial realist" for acknowledging the power dynamics between whites and various minorities in America today, such that a "color-blind" approach can't solve racial issues. I assume you're in neither of these camps, so you probably mean something more along the lines of acknowledging black culture has some toxic trends which contribute to blacks' underprivileged state (which the regressive left insists is a racist position)? I'm only guessing at your meaning here. But you seem to be opposed to much of the social backlash that currently exists against people and positions viewed as "racist," and I assume you don't think we shouldn't stigmatize actual racism, so you must think the labels of racist and bigot have been over-applied by the left. I might even agree with that. Online articles trying to teach white people about "microagressions" and the like can be alright when they come from a place of earnestly trying to help whites understand how to make racial minorities feel more at ease and less alienated, but when they come in the form of condemning anyone who uses the question "So, where are you from?" in small talk as Grand Dragon of the KKK, I think it weakens the label of "racist" and makes it easier for actual racists to hide behind the cover of just being "politically incorrect." A lot of people that use terms like "cultural appropriation" and "gentrification" to explain how white people are literally Hitler are being sloppy in their reasoning, and mostly just making people think it's okay to be skeptical that they could possibly ever be racist. So I think you've assumed that I'm a member of that club, and I'm really not. Back in saner times, most of my online arguments were with those very people. But that group mostly just whines and blogs about Miley Cyrus appropriating this or that. This ethnocentrist movement wants to take over the world. I was hoping that, based on a progress-based view of racial equality, America had come far enough that it could tell the difference between telling an off-color joke to your friends (i.e. political incorrectness) and accusing Mexico of deliberately sending rapists across the border (i.e. racism). I was wrong, thus I am rethinking my assumption that racial equality has steadily improved over time and will only keep getting better. I think this is the first opinion since the "racism war" started about 20 pages back that is actually worth reading.
His post is the saner and nicer version of Kwark's 40% of America is racist posts. And it's unsurprising to me that he, like everyone else on the other side of the issue, struggles with this part of Danglars' post:
My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature.
I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed.
|
On September 23 2016 21:14 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 20:10 farvacola wrote:On September 23 2016 20:09 bo1b wrote:On September 23 2016 19:59 farvacola wrote:
Again, I love how many people come in here talking of "leftist policy" as if the vast majority of state governments aren't run by Republicans. Newsflash, politics occasionally leaves the senate. What? It means the majority of state government being republican has literally nothing to do with the overwhelming leftist sentiment in public places like university, the job place etc.
There isn't "overwhelming leftist sentiment" in public places.
On September 23 2016 21:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 18:42 Acrofales wrote:On September 23 2016 17:16 ChristianS wrote:On September 23 2016 15:49 Danglars wrote:On September 23 2016 15:03 ChristianS wrote:
Jesus this thread is depressing sometimes.
The last ~24 hours of discussion have put a sobering thought into my head, and I wonder what you guys think of it. Basically, in the last 50 or so years, there's been a strong anti-racist movement in the country as a whole. Laws that discriminate against blacks became widely considered unacceptable, public figures are shunned for expressing racist ideas or using racist epithets. The implied justification was that we as a society were making a concerted effort to eliminate racism as much as possible, and drive whatever resistant strains that survived to . Considered with other historical moves towards equality (elimination of slavery, blacks joining the military, Brown v. Board, etc.), it fit nicely with an overarching narrative of racial progress.
Maybe this is just a problem with anecdotal evidence, but it seems to me those attitudes are completely different in a lot of people today. Hardened Trump supporters often try to deny that Trump is a racist, but far more frequently I see people that just don't seem to care much. They might even lean toward thinking he probably is, but it's just not that important an issue. This is really baffling to me, since for my whole life there's been a widespread cultural agreement that overt racism is one of the ugliest sides of human civilization and absolutely cannot be tolerated, but in the broad view of history, racism is absolutely the norm. Not always as bad as early American South racism, but it's always been pretty normal to distrust people with different cultural and ethnic background than you, treat them worse, value their life less than that of your family or friends or tribe members. I always figured that was just part of progress – unlike humans for most of history, we have cars and refrigerators and computers and a prevailing cultural understanding that racism is bad. It's a nice stroll through memory lane, but you make a sudden leap into modern times by contrasting the civil rights era with Trump and his supporters. Sit at the back of the bus was racism. Separate eating establishments based on race was racism. Immigration policy isn't. Political invective on several issues isn't (though abrasive speech will still cause others to bristle no matter the subject). You're right to call it anecdotal, and it's intensely subjective. You'll see the comparisons to late 1800s racism and xenophobia, others will see you as a wannabe crusader longing for a bygone era but without a real civil rights cause today. Worth noting I never said Trump's immigration policy means he's racist. I was honestly more focused on Trump himself. Being prosecuted by Nixon's Justice Department for really explicitly discriminating against black tenants in his hotels back in the 70's. That stuff by Jack O'Donnell about how when he was president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino, Trump went off about not wanting a black guy as an accountant because blacks are lazy, and he only wants Jews counting his money. Calling Mexicans rapists. Those shitty stereotypes he embraced talking to the Republican Jewish Coalition. Y'know, that stuff. But I wasn't really looking to pick a fight either. I don't really long to be a civil rights crusader. The 50's and 60's sound awful, and I'm glad I didn't have to be around for it. I honestly wish that we were having a relatively normal election between, like, Tim Kaine and Jeb Bush, and I could tune out and read the occasional headline without click on it and maybe get around to registering to vote if I had nothing better to do, but I probably never would because I wouldn't care that much who won. Instead we've got a large, disgruntled population of lower- and middle-class white people who feel that they've been wronged by the world. They think they used to have some kind of glory and power, but now their manufacturing jobs are fading away and they're losing their privileged place in the world, and they feel betrayed and unsafe and powerless. We've got a demagogue candidate who's appealing to this population by telling them that they lost their power because of Mexicans and Muslims and China. He's parading around families of people that were raped or murdered by illegal Mexicans to gin up a rage against these foreigners that are raping and murdering their wives and children. He's saying the whole world is laughing at them because they don't win any more. And he's promising them that if they support him, then by the time he's done, nobody will laugh at them again. This is not a drill, this is how real life racial persecution gets started. This is the type of movement that used to lead to pogroms and lynchings and blood libel. People get so caught up in the movement and the propaganda and the cult of personality around a charismatic leader that they stop paying attention to facts and policy, to the point that you can explain to them that the crime rate is down, not up, that they lost their manufacturing jobs to the inexorable forces of globalism and no one can bring them back, and that illegal immigrants actually commit violent crime at a lower rate than the rest of the population, but it has absolutely no bearing on how they feel. My sobering thought was this: what if we're not on an inevitable march toward progress and greater racial equality? What if the anti-racist attitudes of the last 50 years aren't a lasting cultural achievement, but just a temporary backlash against the ugly racism of the 40's and 50's? People saw how hideous that Nazi movement was, and they saw the horrible treatment of blacks in the South, and the lynching of Emmett Till, and the dogs and firehoses deployed against civil rights protesters, and for a while it became fashionable to be against racism.
But now that all that stuff isn't such recent memory, racism takes on all of the advantages that made it prevalent in human society before. Scapegoating is an easy way to feel better about your problems. Stereotyping is almost inescapable in the psychology of how humans understand the world. Many apparent virtues that people are encouraged to cultivate (e.g. loyalty, empathy) can subconsciously promote tribalism (e.g. loyalty involves favoring those you're close to over those you're not, empathy encourages greater connection to people who are more like you). Racial minorities are often small enough in number that society can get weird impressions of them simply from having too small a sample size, and once a weird (especially negative) bias gets in place, confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy effects tend to maintain or expand that bias.
I've been hoping all the bigotry of the Trump movement would be remembered by history as a weird spike of bigotry as the white American middle class came to terms with several realities it had been in denial about for years. But what if history remembers these past ~50 years as that brief period where American society was largely anti-racist? My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature. I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed. Seems like you're throwing out a lot of punches at stuff I'm not sure if you're assuming I support. I'm also not sure what's meant by terms like "racial realism." It seems to denote a position which acknowledges the realities of race (about which this "regressive left" is presumably in denial), but I'm not sure what realities you think those are. A white supremacist might say they're a "racial realist" for acknowledging that white people are better than black people. An SJW might call themselves a "racial realist" for acknowledging the power dynamics between whites and various minorities in America today, such that a "color-blind" approach can't solve racial issues. I assume you're in neither of these camps, so you probably mean something more along the lines of acknowledging black culture has some toxic trends which contribute to blacks' underprivileged state (which the regressive left insists is a racist position)? I'm only guessing at your meaning here. But you seem to be opposed to much of the social backlash that currently exists against people and positions viewed as "racist," and I assume you don't think we shouldn't stigmatize actual racism, so you must think the labels of racist and bigot have been over-applied by the left. I might even agree with that. Online articles trying to teach white people about "microagressions" and the like can be alright when they come from a place of earnestly trying to help whites understand how to make racial minorities feel more at ease and less alienated, but when they come in the form of condemning anyone who uses the question "So, where are you from?" in small talk as Grand Dragon of the KKK, I think it weakens the label of "racist" and makes it easier for actual racists to hide behind the cover of just being "politically incorrect." A lot of people that use terms like "cultural appropriation" and "gentrification" to explain how white people are literally Hitler are being sloppy in their reasoning, and mostly just making people think it's okay to be skeptical that they could possibly ever be racist. So I think you've assumed that I'm a member of that club, and I'm really not. Back in saner times, most of my online arguments were with those very people. But that group mostly just whines and blogs about Miley Cyrus appropriating this or that. This ethnocentrist movement wants to take over the world. I was hoping that, based on a progress-based view of racial equality, America had come far enough that it could tell the difference between telling an off-color joke to your friends (i.e. political incorrectness) and accusing Mexico of deliberately sending rapists across the border (i.e. racism). I was wrong, thus I am rethinking my assumption that racial equality has steadily improved over time and will only keep getting better. I think this is the first opinion since the "racism war" started about 20 pages back that is actually worth reading. His post is the saner and nicer version of Kwark's 40% of America is racist posts. And it's unsurprising to me that he, like everyone else on the other side of the issue, struggles with this part of Danglars' post: Show nested quote +My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature.
I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed.
Yes well the conservatives in this thread are still struggling to come to terms with the fact that they are voting alongside self-avowed white supremacists, so there are clearly struggles all around. Nonsense future hypotheticals aren't sobering, they're quite clearly getting y'all high as fuck.
|
On September 23 2016 19:56 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 19:51 TheDwf wrote:On September 23 2016 16:19 RvB wrote:On September 23 2016 15:54 bo1b wrote:
The counterpoint to that Danglars is the immense snap back to normalicy (and a bit further to the right) across the western world.
I have serious doubts if the Brexit would have passed or if Trump would have got through the primaries without the utter absurdity of left wing crusaders.
Every genius that proudly proclaims that Black people can't be racist, or that every white person needs to check learn their priviledge is doing nothing but hurt themselves. To the right? To the extremes is more accurate. Extreme left parties are gaining as well. I.e. Corbyn, Syriza, Podemos, Sanders and the hardcore left party in my own country (SP) has been gaining for years as well. Neither Corbyn nor Syriza nor Podemos nor Sanders are “extreme left” lol... They are if you accept the narrative that the world started the year Reagan was elected. But yeah, if you don't then Corbyn is basically just a normal Labour MP from the postwar years.
The point is they are a lot further left of the centre than the current centre left parties. Where you (or I) draw the arbitrary line of extreme is irrelevant. People are drifting towards the edges of the political spectrum whether it's left or right.
|
On September 23 2016 21:10 Acrofales wrote:But don't you see? That's all out of context! He is really not sexist at all! Edit: challenge for fiwi, xdaunt and other Trump apologists in here. Please find contexts in which even a few of those sound bytes are acceptable...
It was only a matter of time before an add like this came out. Trump does nothing but talk down to women that don't conform to what he wants out of them. Including look how he wants.
|
Wow, that ad. I didn't know politics in the US was so low key.
|
On September 23 2016 18:55 bo1b wrote:
Heres a question, why on earth is it that riots innevitably occur after a black man is shot (not endorcing this at all), and we hear about fucking all of them that can even be considered not completely justified, yet with 500+ white dudes shot each year... crickets.
Same reason 911 was such a disaster but 10x more people die everyday by other causes isn't. They are not targeted out of proportion.
On September 23 2016 21:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 18:42 Acrofales wrote:On September 23 2016 17:16 ChristianS wrote:On September 23 2016 15:49 Danglars wrote:On September 23 2016 15:03 ChristianS wrote:
Jesus this thread is depressing sometimes.
The last ~24 hours of discussion have put a sobering thought into my head, and I wonder what you guys think of it. Basically, in the last 50 or so years, there's been a strong anti-racist movement in the country as a whole. Laws that discriminate against blacks became widely considered unacceptable, public figures are shunned for expressing racist ideas or using racist epithets. The implied justification was that we as a society were making a concerted effort to eliminate racism as much as possible, and drive whatever resistant strains that survived to . Considered with other historical moves towards equality (elimination of slavery, blacks joining the military, Brown v. Board, etc.), it fit nicely with an overarching narrative of racial progress.
Maybe this is just a problem with anecdotal evidence, but it seems to me those attitudes are completely different in a lot of people today. Hardened Trump supporters often try to deny that Trump is a racist, but far more frequently I see people that just don't seem to care much. They might even lean toward thinking he probably is, but it's just not that important an issue. This is really baffling to me, since for my whole life there's been a widespread cultural agreement that overt racism is one of the ugliest sides of human civilization and absolutely cannot be tolerated, but in the broad view of history, racism is absolutely the norm. Not always as bad as early American South racism, but it's always been pretty normal to distrust people with different cultural and ethnic background than you, treat them worse, value their life less than that of your family or friends or tribe members. I always figured that was just part of progress – unlike humans for most of history, we have cars and refrigerators and computers and a prevailing cultural understanding that racism is bad. It's a nice stroll through memory lane, but you make a sudden leap into modern times by contrasting the civil rights era with Trump and his supporters. Sit at the back of the bus was racism. Separate eating establishments based on race was racism. Immigration policy isn't. Political invective on several issues isn't (though abrasive speech will still cause others to bristle no matter the subject). You're right to call it anecdotal, and it's intensely subjective. You'll see the comparisons to late 1800s racism and xenophobia, others will see you as a wannabe crusader longing for a bygone era but without a real civil rights cause today. Worth noting I never said Trump's immigration policy means he's racist. I was honestly more focused on Trump himself. Being prosecuted by Nixon's Justice Department for really explicitly discriminating against black tenants in his hotels back in the 70's. That stuff by Jack O'Donnell about how when he was president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino, Trump went off about not wanting a black guy as an accountant because blacks are lazy, and he only wants Jews counting his money. Calling Mexicans rapists. Those shitty stereotypes he embraced talking to the Republican Jewish Coalition. Y'know, that stuff. But I wasn't really looking to pick a fight either. I don't really long to be a civil rights crusader. The 50's and 60's sound awful, and I'm glad I didn't have to be around for it. I honestly wish that we were having a relatively normal election between, like, Tim Kaine and Jeb Bush, and I could tune out and read the occasional headline without click on it and maybe get around to registering to vote if I had nothing better to do, but I probably never would because I wouldn't care that much who won. Instead we've got a large, disgruntled population of lower- and middle-class white people who feel that they've been wronged by the world. They think they used to have some kind of glory and power, but now their manufacturing jobs are fading away and they're losing their privileged place in the world, and they feel betrayed and unsafe and powerless. We've got a demagogue candidate who's appealing to this population by telling them that they lost their power because of Mexicans and Muslims and China. He's parading around families of people that were raped or murdered by illegal Mexicans to gin up a rage against these foreigners that are raping and murdering their wives and children. He's saying the whole world is laughing at them because they don't win any more. And he's promising them that if they support him, then by the time he's done, nobody will laugh at them again. This is not a drill, this is how real life racial persecution gets started. This is the type of movement that used to lead to pogroms and lynchings and blood libel. People get so caught up in the movement and the propaganda and the cult of personality around a charismatic leader that they stop paying attention to facts and policy, to the point that you can explain to them that the crime rate is down, not up, that they lost their manufacturing jobs to the inexorable forces of globalism and no one can bring them back, and that illegal immigrants actually commit violent crime at a lower rate than the rest of the population, but it has absolutely no bearing on how they feel. My sobering thought was this: what if we're not on an inevitable march toward progress and greater racial equality? What if the anti-racist attitudes of the last 50 years aren't a lasting cultural achievement, but just a temporary backlash against the ugly racism of the 40's and 50's? People saw how hideous that Nazi movement was, and they saw the horrible treatment of blacks in the South, and the lynching of Emmett Till, and the dogs and firehoses deployed against civil rights protesters, and for a while it became fashionable to be against racism.
But now that all that stuff isn't such recent memory, racism takes on all of the advantages that made it prevalent in human society before. Scapegoating is an easy way to feel better about your problems. Stereotyping is almost inescapable in the psychology of how humans understand the world. Many apparent virtues that people are encouraged to cultivate (e.g. loyalty, empathy) can subconsciously promote tribalism (e.g. loyalty involves favoring those you're close to over those you're not, empathy encourages greater connection to people who are more like you). Racial minorities are often small enough in number that society can get weird impressions of them simply from having too small a sample size, and once a weird (especially negative) bias gets in place, confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy effects tend to maintain or expand that bias.
I've been hoping all the bigotry of the Trump movement would be remembered by history as a weird spike of bigotry as the white American middle class came to terms with several realities it had been in denial about for years. But what if history remembers these past ~50 years as that brief period where American society was largely anti-racist? My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature. I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed. Seems like you're throwing out a lot of punches at stuff I'm not sure if you're assuming I support. I'm also not sure what's meant by terms like "racial realism." It seems to denote a position which acknowledges the realities of race (about which this "regressive left" is presumably in denial), but I'm not sure what realities you think those are. A white supremacist might say they're a "racial realist" for acknowledging that white people are better than black people. An SJW might call themselves a "racial realist" for acknowledging the power dynamics between whites and various minorities in America today, such that a "color-blind" approach can't solve racial issues. I assume you're in neither of these camps, so you probably mean something more along the lines of acknowledging black culture has some toxic trends which contribute to blacks' underprivileged state (which the regressive left insists is a racist position)? I'm only guessing at your meaning here. But you seem to be opposed to much of the social backlash that currently exists against people and positions viewed as "racist," and I assume you don't think we shouldn't stigmatize actual racism, so you must think the labels of racist and bigot have been over-applied by the left. I might even agree with that. Online articles trying to teach white people about "microagressions" and the like can be alright when they come from a place of earnestly trying to help whites understand how to make racial minorities feel more at ease and less alienated, but when they come in the form of condemning anyone who uses the question "So, where are you from?" in small talk as Grand Dragon of the KKK, I think it weakens the label of "racist" and makes it easier for actual racists to hide behind the cover of just being "politically incorrect." A lot of people that use terms like "cultural appropriation" and "gentrification" to explain how white people are literally Hitler are being sloppy in their reasoning, and mostly just making people think it's okay to be skeptical that they could possibly ever be racist. So I think you've assumed that I'm a member of that club, and I'm really not. Back in saner times, most of my online arguments were with those very people. But that group mostly just whines and blogs about Miley Cyrus appropriating this or that. This ethnocentrist movement wants to take over the world. I was hoping that, based on a progress-based view of racial equality, America had come far enough that it could tell the difference between telling an off-color joke to your friends (i.e. political incorrectness) and accusing Mexico of deliberately sending rapists across the border (i.e. racism). I was wrong, thus I am rethinking my assumption that racial equality has steadily improved over time and will only keep getting better. I think this is the first opinion since the "racism war" started about 20 pages back that is actually worth reading. His post is the saner and nicer version of Kwark's 40% of America is racist posts. And it's unsurprising to me that he, like everyone else on the other side of the issue, struggles with this part of Danglars' post: Show nested quote +My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature.
I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed.
Because it's gibberish. In 3 generations "atmosphere of moral scolds" today will be regarded as weird the same way colonization, slavery, and women's inability to vote is regarded as weird. With exception of bumps that followed by bloody implosion, it has been a one way street for hundreds of years.
|
On September 23 2016 21:34 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2016 19:56 KwarK wrote:On September 23 2016 19:51 TheDwf wrote:On September 23 2016 16:19 RvB wrote:On September 23 2016 15:54 bo1b wrote:
The counterpoint to that Danglars is the immense snap back to normalicy (and a bit further to the right) across the western world.
I have serious doubts if the Brexit would have passed or if Trump would have got through the primaries without the utter absurdity of left wing crusaders.
Every genius that proudly proclaims that Black people can't be racist, or that every white person needs to check learn their priviledge is doing nothing but hurt themselves. To the right? To the extremes is more accurate. Extreme left parties are gaining as well. I.e. Corbyn, Syriza, Podemos, Sanders and the hardcore left party in my own country (SP) has been gaining for years as well. Neither Corbyn nor Syriza nor Podemos nor Sanders are “extreme left” lol... They are if you accept the narrative that the world started the year Reagan was elected. But yeah, if you don't then Corbyn is basically just a normal Labour MP from the postwar years. The point is they are a lot further left of the centre than the current centre left parties. Where you (or I) draw the arbitrary line of extreme is irrelevant. People are drifting towards the edges of the political spectrum whether it's left or right.
It's not, since labelling parties or persons as “extreme” is generally a cheap way to demonize them. Plus it's factually incorrect anyway, far-left in the European sense = revolutionary movements. Upon checking, the SP from your country just seems to be what is now called “radical left”. If a party is willing to govern it cannot be labelled far-left.
You're right about the polarization in both ways though.
|
On September 23 2016 21:24 farvacola wrote:
Yes well the conservatives in this thread are still struggling to come to terms with the fact that they are voting alongside self-avowed white supremacists, so there are clearly struggles all around. Nonsense future hypotheticals aren't sobering, they're quite clearly getting y'all high as fuck.
I love how you guys on the left are willfully oblivious as to the left's role in all of this. Where do you think identity politics came from? It sure as shit isn't a product of the right. The left has been "voting alongside" racialist (and in some cases, racist), specialist interest groups for decades. So now you're complaining when white's start to collectively wonder "what about us?" Give me a break. The left has been socially engineering with race for about half a century, and over the past generation or so, has reached the point where it is clearly pushing things too far. Hell, y'all are tampering with football now and basically sanctioning riots and looting in cities. These are things that aren't going to be tolerated -- nor should they be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
