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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:20 TheDwf wrote: Always this “others did it too” argument... So? How is the Arab slave trade relevant to the current situation in the USA? This is a result of someone with white guilt taking a long look at the rest of the world and realising just how ludicrous the concept really is. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:29 zlefin wrote: tons of people call out that behavior in the middle east. your assertion that noone is raising their voice against it is flat out wrong. Australia is regularly considered one of the most racist places on the planet for its actions decades ago, their are places in Africa genociding people still today. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11933 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:26 GoTuNk! wrote: I see a lot of white shaming and USA bashing in this thread in general. For example America is still running a slave Empire enforced by the police. That is not even close to reality, while no one raises their voice to critizice actual brutal racism and sexism that is currently going on in a bunch of middle eastern countries, where woman legally do not have rights (and blacks were hunted out of existence). The west is still a beacon of rationality and civilization, and the greatest place to live in the entire history of the world, by far. Obviously it can be better, but we should be turning to our core values that created this great civilization, not the other way around as the left is trying to. The motto of the US isn't "We'll strive to be better than Saudi Arabia". The fact that they are isn't really amazing. There are 195 sovereign states on this earth, and something like 190 of them are better than Saudi Arabia. When we see that there is hunger in Africa, we don't go, wait, first we have to check whether there is more hunger in North Korea, cause if there is, we need to deal with that first. The fact that there are other problems elsewhere doesn't forbid you from fixing problems here. It is a fallacy. It is especially fallacious because the crushing majority of the people who bring up Saudi Arabia in a context like this will never do anything to help the cause of women in Saudi Arabia. They will just bring up the fact that they exist to justify their inaction toward other issues. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:32 Nebuchad wrote: The motto of the US isn't "We'll strive to be better than Saudi Arabia". The fact that they are isn't really amazing. There are 195 sovereign states on this earth, and something like 190 of them are better than Saudi Arabia. When we see that there is hunger in Africa, we don't go, wait, first we have to check whether there is more hunger in North Korea, cause if there is, we need to deal with that first. The fact that there are other problems elsewhere doesn't forbid you from fixing problems here. It is a fallacy. It is especially fallacious because the crushing majority of the people who bring up Saudi Arabia in a context like this will never do anything to help the cause of women in Saudi Arabia. They will just bring up the fact that they exist to justify their inaction toward other issues. 9 times out of 10 people bring up women in the middle east as a justification for their views on immigration. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
The US police situation is a tragedy and an abomination. It's also better than many, many, countries. And better than its been for most of our history too. And incidentally, Europe falls victim to the same trap... a lot of Europeans act like shit in Europe has never been worse. Like, what the fuck guys. Europe is doing great. A few countries suck at balancing their budgets, but that's quite fixable while still providing an insanely good standard of living. You haven't fought a major war in over 70 years, and your pocket contains a magic portal to all the porn in asgard. We westerners pretty much across the board live better lives than our grandparents. Yes, it would be nice to share the wealth more effectively, and yes, we are still haunted by the not-yet-killed demons of history (racism, sexism, homophobia etc.), but we are still wealthier than our grandparents and still less racist/sexist/homophobic. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17852 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:26 GoTuNk! wrote: I see a lot of white shaming and USA bashing in this thread in general. For example America is still running a slave Empire enforced by the police. That is not even close to reality, while no one raises their voice to critizice actual brutal racism and sexism that is currently going on in a bunch of middle eastern countries, where woman legally do not have rights (and blacks were hunted out of existence). The west is still a beacon of rationality and civilization, and the greatest place to live in the entire history of the world, by far. Obviously it can be better, but we should be turning to our core values that created this great civilization, not the other way around as the left is trying to. What exactly are those core values, according to you? But in general, while Nevuk gave an incredibly bleak interpretation of the current prison system, and I can see an argument against it (although I am not educated on the matter, so I will leave it to others to do so), your argument is in very bad faith. You throw up two red herrings as a reply. Neither has anything to do with what Nevuk posted. As for raising our voice against rampant racism and sexism in the M.E. Did you notice the name of the thread? This is not the Saudi Arabia Mega Politics thread. We agree with you. That other countries are worse is not a reason not to discuss the problems in the US. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:32 bo1b wrote: Australia is regularly considered one of the most racist places on the planet for its actions decades ago, their are places in Africa genociding people still today. i'm not sure how that's relevant to my point. at any rate; some idiots evaluate things poorly; and they're loud. so? and considered the most racist by whom, by what metric and analyses? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:32 Nebuchad wrote: The motto of the US isn't "We'll strive to be better than Saudi Arabia". The fact that they are isn't really amazing. There are 195 sovereign states on this earth, and something like 190 of them are better than Saudi Arabia. When we see that there is hunger in Africa, we don't go, wait, first we have to check whether there is more hunger in North Korea, cause if there is, we need to deal with that first. The fact that there are other problems elsewhere doesn't forbid you from fixing problems here. It is a fallacy. It is especially fallacious because the crushing majority of the people who bring up Saudi Arabia in a context like this will never do anything to help the cause of women in Saudi Arabia. They will just bring up the fact that they exist to justify their inaction toward other issues. We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. People forget that it say when the rich white dudes formed this thing in the past, they understood what they were doing was flawed. It is why a lot of Americanicana features unfinished houses and buildings. That we are not perfect and can't ever even dream to be. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:36 zlefin wrote: i'm not sure how that's relevant to my point. at any rate; some idiots evaluate things poorly; and they're loud. so? and considered the most racist by whom, by what metric and analyses? By loud mouths at university, people on prime time television, MSN for whatever reason. I hear every tuesday (I have to walk past the social sciences area to get to my engineering section) how racist we are. http://www.msn.com/en-za/lifestyle/experiences/analysis-10-most-racist-countries-in-the-world/ar-CC7rXC Here's an article you may have received if you didn't change your default home page in Australia. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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KwarK
United States42014 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:13 GoTuNk! wrote: Yes, that is an accurate portrait of the country that run a civil war to end slavism within itself and follow trough with the rest of the world. If you wanna go trough the history rabit hole, did you know muslims captured millions of slaves (from Europe and Africa), but have no black population because they castrated them? Yes. Slavery has a long history all around the world, everybody knows that. Additionally, although slavery continues to be a problem in parts of the world, it was largely the ideals of 19th Century European philosophy, combined with the power to enforce those ideals on the resisting world, that broke slavery as an official institution. Obviously slavery continues to endure through other means because people just really like owning other people and it's hard to stamp out but yes, we all know that slavery isn't exclusively white and that the main global force behind the opposition to slavery came from white dudes (Haiti notwithstanding). There are some other fun cases like Sri Lanka I believe where a Buddhist king banned slavery in the 4th Century for ideological reasons but sure, slavery isn't just a white thing. Slavery as it relates to western nations is a white thing though because the ones in power who were buying and owning the slaves there were white. | ||
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KwarK
United States42014 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:23 Nebuchad wrote: All right, I'll play along. The southern strategy? You have been banned from r/Conservative. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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KwarK
United States42014 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:32 bo1b wrote: Australia is regularly considered one of the most racist places on the planet for its actions decades ago, their are places in Africa genociding people still today. Or, alternatively, we expect Australia to set the bar higher than "not currently engaged in genocide, largely because we already did such a great job of it". Like come on, how many years ago was the Stolen Generation? You're going to have to try harder than that. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/09/donald-trump-gun-rights-stop-frisk Note that Chicago already has stop and frisk. Great words, great people, great leader. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On September 24 2016 00:02 KwarK wrote: Yes. Slavery has a long history all around the world, everybody knows that. Additionally, although slavery continues to be a problem in parts of the world, it was largely the ideals of 19th Century European philosophy, combined with the power to enforce those ideals on the resisting world, that broke slavery as an official institution. Obviously slavery continues to endure through other means because people just really like owning other people and it's hard to stamp out but yes, we all know that slavery isn't exclusively white and that the main global force behind the opposition to slavery came from white dudes (Haiti notwithstanding). There are some other fun cases like Sri Lanka I believe where a Buddhist king banned slavery in the 4th Century for ideological reasons but sure, slavery isn't just a white thing. Slavery as it relates to western nations is a white thing though because the ones in power who were buying and owning the slaves there were white. This is all true, but it's worth mentioning that the 18th and 19th century anti-slavery movements (both in America and Britain) were largely intellectually backed and practically operated by the religious left of the time. The Enlightenment philosophers were mostly along for the ride. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On September 24 2016 00:12 TheTenthDoc wrote: Trump clarified that his stop and frisk is actually "stop, frisk, and take guns away." And also that it's for Chicago. http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/09/donald-trump-gun-rights-stop-frisk Note that Chicago already has stop and frisk. Great words, great people, great leader. Guess the gun nuts don't mind when it's the blacks who get their guns taken away  . Nor does Trump. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9024 Posts
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On September 24 2016 00:12 TheTenthDoc wrote: Trump clarified that his stop and frisk is actually "stop, frisk, and take guns away." Presumably from black people, so it's not gun confiscation. And also that it's for Chicago. http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/09/donald-trump-gun-rights-stop-frisk Note that Chicago already has stop and frisk. Great words, great people, great leader. Well, looks like he stepped on the one amendment his voting base won't stand to have trampled. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21380 Posts
On September 24 2016 00:12 TheTenthDoc wrote: Trump clarified that his stop and frisk is actually "stop, frisk, and take guns away." Presumably from black people, so it's not gun confiscation. And also that it's for Chicago. http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/09/donald-trump-gun-rights-stop-frisk Note that Chicago already has stop and frisk. Great words, great people, great leader. Trump wants to take guns away? Oh I hope for him this doesn't get to much main stream coverage. Could backfire as hard (or worse) then his attack on Khan. | ||
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