|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that.
Right, which is why these ultra PC assholes shouldn't be tolerated. They need to be mocked and ridiculed out of existence. Though I don't consider myself part of the alt right, I am 100% on board with their mission on this point.
|
xDaunt: Schrodinger's alt-righter
|
Every time Nazis or Hitler are brought up in discourse as an analogy, many brain cells die.
|
On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right?
Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway.
I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume.
|
On September 22 2016 22:52 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right? Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway. I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume.
Prohibitions and public expressions of distaste are rather different though; couldn't those posters previously referenced be characterized as the latter?
|
On September 22 2016 22:55 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right? Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway. I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume. Prohibitions and public expressions of distaste are rather different though; couldn't those posters previously referenced be characterized as the latter?
Yeah. I don't dispute their right to express their opinion. I just vehemently disagree with it.
|
On September 22 2016 22:55 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right? Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway. I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume. Prohibitions and public expressions of distaste are rather different though; couldn't those posters previously referenced be characterized as the latter?
No, not anymore.
|
On September 22 2016 22:56 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:55 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right? Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway. I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume. Prohibitions and public expressions of distaste are rather different though; couldn't those posters previously referenced be characterized as the latter? Yeah. I don't dispute their right to express their opinion. I just vehemently disagree with it.
You disagree with the fact that minorities claim that some costumes are offensive to their culture? If someone says that they don't like your favorite food, does that upset you?
xDaunt-why not?
|
On September 22 2016 22:58 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:56 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:55 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right? Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway. I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume. Prohibitions and public expressions of distaste are rather different though; couldn't those posters previously referenced be characterized as the latter? Yeah. I don't dispute their right to express their opinion. I just vehemently disagree with it. You disagree with the fact that minorities claim that some costumes are offensive to their culture? If someone says that they don't like your favorite food, does that upset you? xDaunt-why not?
Because it has become very clear that the expressions of distaste are directly leading to the prohibitions. The two are effectively inseparable. We need look no further than Twitter to see evidence of this.
|
On September 22 2016 22:58 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:56 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:55 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right? Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway. I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume. Prohibitions and public expressions of distaste are rather different though; couldn't those posters previously referenced be characterized as the latter? Yeah. I don't dispute their right to express their opinion. I just vehemently disagree with it. You disagree with the fact that minorities claim that some costumes are offensive to their culture? If someone says that they don't like your favorite food, does that upset you? xDaunt-why not?
Thing is, someones cultural sensitivity from within the culture is also not an exclusively uniform thing. I can think if a kid wanted to run around with a turban and a trouser and flail a little sword around that would be cool.
If you look at outrage groups barring a few exceptions its never really a majority of people that even care about these things. As someone whose culture gets appropriated and even misrepresented frequently. I can assure that most of us, dont give a shit.
There are good reasons to be offended, costumes for kids is not one of them. And if you are offended by that I reserve the right to not care in good conscious..
|
On September 22 2016 23:03 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:58 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:56 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:55 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right? Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway. I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume. Prohibitions and public expressions of distaste are rather different though; couldn't those posters previously referenced be characterized as the latter? Yeah. I don't dispute their right to express their opinion. I just vehemently disagree with it. You disagree with the fact that minorities claim that some costumes are offensive to their culture? If someone says that they don't like your favorite food, does that upset you? xDaunt-why not? Because it has become very clear that the expressions of distaste are directly leading to the prohibitions. The two are effectively inseparable. We need look no further than Twitter to see evidence of this.
Are the members of a particular minority group inseparable by virtue of their shared characteristics? If not, why should the actions of some impact the expressions of others when there pretty clearly exists a wide disparity in approach among members of the same group?
|
On September 22 2016 22:58 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:56 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:55 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right? Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway. I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume. Prohibitions and public expressions of distaste are rather different though; couldn't those posters previously referenced be characterized as the latter? Yeah. I don't dispute their right to express their opinion. I just vehemently disagree with it. You disagree with the fact that minorities claim that some costumes are offensive to their culture? If you someone says that they don't like your favorite food, does that upset you?
If their aim is that restaurants stop serving my favourite food, then yes.
And on-message, I disagree with their message that I should *care* about them being offended by those costumes. Some of them, I would probably agree with. It seems pretty offensive to dress as a donkey fucker, and I can see how,if people are walking around at Halloween as Mexican donkey-fuckers, it's a good thing to raise awareness that that is not ok. But rapper outfits are about as offensive as kilts or viking helmets.
|
On September 22 2016 23:08 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:58 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:56 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:55 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right? Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway. I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume. Prohibitions and public expressions of distaste are rather different though; couldn't those posters previously referenced be characterized as the latter? Yeah. I don't dispute their right to express their opinion. I just vehemently disagree with it. You disagree with the fact that minorities claim that some costumes are offensive to their culture? If you someone says that they don't like your favorite food, does that upset you? If their aim is that restaurants stop serving my favourite food, then yes. And on-message, I disagree with their message that I should *care* about them being offended by those costumes. Some of them, I would probably agree with. It seems pretty offensive to dress as a donkey fucker, and I can see how,if people are walking around at Halloween as Mexican donkey-fuckers, it's a good thing to raise awareness that that is not ok. But rapper outfits are about as offensive as kilts or viking helmets.
I'm glad you've now differentiated your approach from xDaunt's, I didn't think you made for good bedfellows. And yes, I agree with the above almost entirely.
|
if someone decided to dress up as a coolie and run around with a pair of chopsticks while imitating leslie from the hangover for halloween i personally wouldn't really be offended. i'd just think it was in really bad taste and that they're an idiot.
i concede it's probably different for people with other backgrounds though, and that there are things they find find truly offensive and hurtful. but i feel (and i say feel) that the standard should be restrictions on stuff that represents some sort of historic violence or discrimination (like someone dressing up in white robes and pointy hat) vs a cultural caricature.
|
On September 22 2016 23:06 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:58 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:56 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:55 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right? Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway. I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume. Prohibitions and public expressions of distaste are rather different though; couldn't those posters previously referenced be characterized as the latter? Yeah. I don't dispute their right to express their opinion. I just vehemently disagree with it. You disagree with the fact that minorities claim that some costumes are offensive to their culture? If someone says that they don't like your favorite food, does that upset you? xDaunt-why not? Thing is, someones cultural sensitivity from within the culture is also not an exclusively uniform thing. I can think if a kid wanted to run around with a turban and a trouser and flail a little sword around that would be cool. If you look at outrage groups barring a few exceptions its never really a majority of people that even care about these things. As someone whose culture gets appropriated and even misrepresented frequently. I can assure that most of us, dont give a shit. There are good reasons to be offended, costumes for kids are not one of them.
Specific examples of how particular members of implicated groups are ok with representations of said groups are not all that interesting; surely you can see how someone who has had their minority status tossed in their face throughout their life, much to their detriment, might feel differently?
|
On September 22 2016 23:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
if someone decided to dress up as a coolie and run around with a pair of chopsticks while imitating leslie from the hangover for halloween i personally wouldn't really be offended. i'd just think it was in really bad taste and that they're an idiot.
i concede it's probably different for people with other backgrounds though, and that there are things they find find truly offensive and hurtful. but i feel (and i say feel) that the standard should be restrictions on stuff that represents some sort of historic violence or discrimination (like someone dressing up in white robes and pointy hat) vs a cultural caricature.
I'm not sure active restrictions on something like worn expression should ever be tolerated, but like you've said, there are plenty of legitimate circumstances in which someone is entitled to their offense.
|
United States44123 Posts
There are two separate issues here. Firstly, is someone being an asshole? And hopefully we're all agreed that the guy who wears a SS uniform on Halloween and knowingly shows up at the door of Holocaust survivors is an asshole. Secondly, should it be legal? And again I think we're pretty much all agreed that it should be legal. Even the SJWs who bitch about cultural appropriate. They're just trying to explain why it's an asshole thing to do, they're not proposing that the first amendment be repealed.
The entire argument to me reeks of one side going "how dare you say I'm not allowed to be an asshole!!!" and the other going "could you try to stop being an asshole?". No actual communication takes place.
|
On September 22 2016 23:13 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 23:06 Rebs wrote:On September 22 2016 22:58 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:56 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:55 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:45 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:
[quote]
Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you.
Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Don't you think a holocaust survivor would feel differently? Fuck their feelings, right? Basically, yes. The right to free expression is greater than the right to not be offended. Do I think wearing a Nazi costume is a really dickish move that portrays some appalling values? Yes. But I support the right to wear it anyway. I also think that the reasons a holocaust survivor is offended by a Nazi costume being used "frivolously" is quite different from what those ads portray. E.g. I think a holocaust survivor would be far more offended by a Nazi costume than an Auschwitz-camp-inmate costume. Prohibitions and public expressions of distaste are rather different though; couldn't those posters previously referenced be characterized as the latter? Yeah. I don't dispute their right to express their opinion. I just vehemently disagree with it. You disagree with the fact that minorities claim that some costumes are offensive to their culture? If someone says that they don't like your favorite food, does that upset you? xDaunt-why not? Thing is, someones cultural sensitivity from within the culture is also not an exclusively uniform thing. I can think if a kid wanted to run around with a turban and a trouser and flail a little sword around that would be cool. If you look at outrage groups barring a few exceptions its never really a majority of people that even care about these things. As someone whose culture gets appropriated and even misrepresented frequently. I can assure that most of us, dont give a shit. There are good reasons to be offended, costumes for kids are not one of them. Specific examples of how particular members of implicated groups are ok with representations of said groups are not all that interesting; surely you can see how someone who has had their minority status tossed in their face throughout their life, much to their detriment, might feel differently? Affluence changes the equation, I think.
But thats exactly what you are doing, even your examples are specific. The people that have had their minority status tossed in their face are a very specific set of people.
Thats not a problem with random instances of cultural appropriation. Thats a problem of discrimination.
edit: Look its pretty straightforward, if something is meant to offend its pretty obvious. Problem is if you are going to start complaining about harmless instances of appropriation that may even be trying to celebrate your culture albeit sloppily, thats not a bad thing.
|
On September 22 2016 22:47 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2016 22:44 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:39 farvacola wrote:On September 22 2016 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On September 22 2016 22:26 farvacola wrote:
That's a very different proposition, and I think a member of a group being implicated by a costume would fight your invocation of "just about anything." Fairly certain that if you're offended by little kids walking around in a gypsy dress, you'll get offended by virtually anything that references your culture. It's almost like you're embarrassed for your culture if that offends you. Look, it isn't hard to toss the concerns of others when you color them in the least appealing shade possible, but then again, being offended by someone else being offended speaks for itself. At least xDaunt is honest about his disregard and doesn't resort to cherry picking. I'm not offended by people being offended. That would imply I feel insulted by their feelings. I don't. I am however annoyed that they think they can tell others what is and what isn't a valid costume. Imho, people can walk around in a Nazi costume. I don't think I'd give them candy, and they may not find the whole ordeal particularly pleasant, but I support their right to do that. Right, which is why these ultra PC assholes shouldn't be tolerated. They need to be mocked and ridiculed out of existence. Though I don't consider myself part of the alt right, I am 100% on board with their mission on this point.
I agree that many people are too politically correct, but I also worry that many in the alt-right camp aren't merely being "non-PC", but are being outright racist and sexist and bigoted in both their words and actions, and trying to argue that their beliefs are acceptable and respectable merely because it's okay to not be PC. I think they create a false dichotomy between the two extremes of the PC spectrum, and try to insist that unless you're an uber politically correct pussy, you should be okay with ignorant and hateful filth.
|
Canada11559 Posts
I could definitely see wanting to push back against cultural appropriation. I was very on board with it at first and still agree with it in principle (if you're describing someone's culture, do so respectfully), but I have had some major shifts in thinking based on how it is being carried out- University of Ottawa cancelled their yoga class due to cultural appropriation claims- I have zero interest in yoga, but it strikes me that most anything comes from a culture somewhere.
It's starting look like a race to claim the cultural equivalent of intellectual property, which in terms of history starts look like the privatization and therefore the downfall of the idea of public history. Only First Nations may tell the stories of their people, yet we as teachers are supposed to teach First Nations content- I suppose that means we can only teach it by bringing a representative of each local band in. Here's the problem- what if they are wrong? Like dead wrong? Even wrong in a very racist way? The current application of cultural appropriation tends creates a protected body of knowledge, so long as you are speaking about your people's history.
This is where Vox Day has actually changed my thinking- not because I agree with him, but because I think he is dead wrong and a racial supremacist. But he is rather clever because he wields his Native American ancestry against any who would contradict him. Everything that people use to fight for ethnic groups being able to tell their own story exclusively, he adopts due to his Native American heritage all to further his arguments about white supremacy. So either I'm left arguing about whether he has sufficient Native American ancestry to be counted as such, which is a dumb conversation to have or people outside the culture can also critically (and yes, respectfully) tell someone else's cultural story. I still believe in going to good sources and being respectful and accurate (all good stuff for the historically minded), but I don't agree that an ethnic group can have the exclusive rights to tell their story- It only works until they are wrong and belligerently wrong with no hope of correction. And I say this as a person with what I would consider a rich cultural background (not this nebulous "I'm a white person"). Sure I would prefer if my own people were the ones telling our story if possible, but I also believe anyone could research properly and have a decent outside perspective and could give a respectful and even a critical account of my cultural history. I believe that history is public. That belief does directly contradict others belief systems that believe history can be sacred and therefore exclusive. Call me an imperialist, but I still disagree with them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
