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On December 21 2012 14:30 p4NDemik wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 12:50 farvacola wrote:Boehner is officially in the process of being excommunicated from the Republican party lol. He won't win his reelection without hardline conservatives, and I'm on the lookout for a strong Democratic contender in 2014. Even Mitch McConnell is immensely unpopular in his home state of Tennessee, and guess which presidential candidate Eric Cantor's state gave their electoral votes? Not looking good for GOP legislative leadership in any case. Mitch McConnell is a Kentucky Senator who was born in Alabama. He isn't terribly popular though, you've got that one part right at least.
Yeah my bad, I sometimes get his and Lamar Alexander's "home" states confused for whatever reason.
Edit: Here's some op-ed liberal slander from Politico on Boehner's scrapping of Plan B. 
Things were so bad for Speaker John Boehner Thursday night, support for his Plan B tax bill so diminished, the limits of his power with his own party laid bare, that he stood in front of the House Republican Conference and recited the Serenity Prayer.
“God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”
Boehner nearly cried.
The Ohio Republican accepted that he couldn’t change the minds of his House Republican Conference. He tried to convince them that, facing tough negotiations with President Barack Obama over the fiscal cliff, he needed them on his side — and he fell short. With that, Boehner — a man who has clawed back from the political ledge to arrive at the top rung of power — saw perhaps the lowest moment in his speakership.
It was supposed to be a moment of strength, a way to drag Obama and the Democrats toward them in the high-stakes fiscal cliff negotiations that have Washington teetering on the brink. Instead, it showed the world that either Boehner couldn’t bring 217 of his own members to his side, or they were unwilling to be led by him in this fight.
Rep. Mike Kelly, a burly freshman from Pennsylvania, stood in front of a closed meeting in the basement of the Capitol and said his fellow Republicans were selfish. Boehner, he said, has done a good job.
It was too late. The meeting had adjourned. No heartfelt rhetoric from Boehner. He and Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) simply read statements later delivered to the press, and went their respective ways. It’s unclear when the House will return. GOP aides said it could even be 2013, after big tax increases and spending cuts kick in, although they have been warned to be on 48-hour notice to return to Washington if necessary.
Boehner’s toughest hour
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So the GOP has now put up their "Plan B" offer that does virtually nothing to stop the fiscal cliff, i.e. spending still gets cut, and tax hikes will still hit most people, but now they can't even get the votes from their own party to pass this "plan" that lets the Bush tax cuts expire only on millionaires.
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CIRCUS. CLOWNS.
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This is pretty grim. The republicans seems to have banked on putting blame of the fiscal cliff fall-off on the democrats. Now republicans are looking far more blameworthy. I think this maneuver has been a big loss for the republicans on many levels. The answer to the question "Is there a relevant alternative to the democats?" seems to be "no" at the moment.
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Maybe some weird compromise is in the working.
Republicans accept the taxes and budget, and obama drops anny plans he might have for gun control.
These 2 isues are not related at all, but this would maybe give the republicans a change to accept the deal without
completely loosing their faces.
Or is this to farsought?
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On December 22 2012 11:07 Rassy wrote:
Maybe some weird compromise is in the working.
Republicans accept the taxes and budget, and obama drops anny plans he might have for gun control.
These 2 isues are not related at all, but this would maybe give the republicans a change to accept the deal without
completely loosing their faces.
Or is this to farsought?
Doubtful. Current Republican leadership is incompetent. They really ARE out of touch with the majority. They are so used to be lauded by the hardcore conservatives that as of late they are way overplaying their hand on things. Conservatives are a shrinking slice of the voting pie. They are loud, but it's one man one vote, and the GOP is failing to grasp that. I think they're simply trying to save face, and failing at that too.
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Look at this, people already blaming the Republicans for the fiscal cliff.
And my theory was called crazy. Step 2: After negotiations fail the Democrats propose tax breaks for the middle class and take credit for it.
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That's the idea behind a presidential year election mandate, especially with the Senate in Democratic hands. To the victor go the spoils of popular opinion.
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On December 22 2012 14:49 farvacola wrote:
That's the idea behind a presidential year election mandate, especially with the Senate in Democratic hands. To the victor go the spoils of popular opinion.
Let's not ignore the fact that the media plays a huge hand in shaping public opinion on these complicated matters.
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Republicans have been in ruins ever sense bush came out of office. They've found themselves in a situation where they're really in a bad spot and can only get in a worse spot. With how far chris Christie has distanced himself from anything republican I doubt that he has any interest now of saving the national party.
Nothing short of a smoking piling ruin can turn the republican party around much like where democrats where after the "southern strategy" gave such sweeping landslides for candidate after candidate. Clinton is probably gona win an easy election come 2016 and 2020 and there isn't really anything that conservatives in the country can do to stop it. At the very least modern democrats are fairly conservative for global standards and won't do too much crazy stuff to mess up the country.
On December 22 2012 14:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Look at this, people already blaming the Republicans for the fiscal cliff.
And my theory was called crazy. Step 2: After negotiations fail the Democrats propose tax breaks for the middle class and take credit for it.
Polls have shown that republicans will be blamed for the fiscal cliff mess from just after the election. The fact that the rank and file tea partyers don't understand this just shows poorly. The party used its success's during the health care reform debacle by the dems to start the tea party movement. Now they are repaid by incompetent crazies that are unfit to do even the basic things accepted by the people to allow Politicians to do politic things. The tea party will continue to be a cancer to the party until the real conservatives burn it out.
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On December 22 2012 14:51 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 14:49 farvacola wrote:
That's the idea behind a presidential year election mandate, especially with the Senate in Democratic hands. To the victor go the spoils of popular opinion. Let's not ignore the fact that the media plays a huge hand in shaping public opinion on these complicated matters.
Most certainly, and that phenomena is a huge part of why politics really sucks these days (though I guess it's disingenuous to pretend that this is a new thing). Rome is the mob, after all, and the mainstreamness of a lot of bad information dispersal seems like a tough problem to approach.
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I would love more than anybody to see the Republican party in a smoking pile of ruins. The party needs serious reform. The social issue right/religious right are shrinking minorities and should be abandoned entirely. The future of the party is in largely in economic policy, which they have been extremely weak on for decades. I say give the country to the Democrats until a strong distinction and therefore alternative can be offered.
Really though, all largely Democratic governments move steadily to the left as more and more people vote themselves benefits from the public treasury. That is the inevitable future, and I've never been a fan of delaying the inevitable.
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On December 22 2012 14:52 Sermokala wrote:
Republicans have been in ruins ever sense bush came out of office. They've found themselves in a situation where they're really in a bad spot and can only get in a worse spot. With how far chris Christie has distanced himself from anything republican I doubt that he has any interest now of saving the national party.
Nothing short of a smoking piling ruin can turn the republican party around much like where democrats where after the "southern strategy" gave such sweeping landslides for candidate after candidate. Clinton is probably gona win an easy election come 2016 and 2020 and there isn't really anything that conservatives in the country can do to stop it. At the very least modern democrats are fairly conservative for global standards and won't do too much crazy stuff to mess up the country.
I think they've had a bit of an identity crisis. They HAD to distance themselves from Bush if they wanted to win in 2008 because the media had vilified him so badly. People forget Bush was a somewhat moderate Republican (although religious). They flinched instead of sticking by those policies, but I think they went the wrong way away from Bush. 9/11 messed up a lot of things politically.
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On December 22 2012 15:06 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I would love more than anybody to see the Republican party in a smoking pile of ruins. The party needs serious reform. The social issue right/religious right are shrinking minorities and should be abandoned entirely. The future of the party is in largely in economic policy, which they have been extremely weak on for decades. I say give the country to the Democrats until a strong distinction and therefore alternative can be offered.
Really though, all largely Democratic governments move steadily to the left as more and more people vote themselves benefits from the public treasury. That is the inevitable future, and I've never been a fan of delaying the inevitable.
I agree with your means, though I conceive of a different end. No surprise there I suppose.
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On December 22 2012 15:06 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I would love more than anybody to see the Republican party in a smoking pile of ruins. The party needs serious reform. The social issue right/religious right are shrinking minorities and should be abandoned entirely. The future of the party is in largely in economic policy, which they have been extremely weak on for decades. I say give the country to the Democrats until a strong distinction and therefore alternative can be offered.
Really though, all largely Democratic governments move steadily to the left as more and more people vote themselves benefits from the public treasury. That is the inevitable future, and I've never been a fan of delaying the inevitable.
I semi-hope they get swept in 2014. It would send the message to reform AND open up a seat for me to run  It's kinda bittersweet. I hate to see Democrats in charge, but I think it'd be better for the party in the long run.
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Open up a seat for you to run? Seriously?
Now I am intrigued. Tell me more.
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On December 22 2012 15:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:Open up a seat for you to run? Seriously? Now I am intrigued. Tell me more.
I intend to run for state legislature at some point (or more if things fall the way they need to fall).
That's why I joined up with that Senate campaign... I found myself willing to support a candidate and needed to learn the ropes.
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On December 22 2012 14:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Look at this, people already blaming the Republicans for the fiscal cliff.
And my theory was called crazy. Step 2: After negotiations fail the Democrats propose tax breaks for the middle class and take credit for it.
David Frum summarizes it pretty succintly.
Plan B was never intended as a serious budget proposal. Plan B was intended only as a PR insurance policy if the country went over the fiscal cliff. Republicans could then say: "See we were prepared to tax millionaires if need be."
The defeat of Plan B leaves Republicans - all Republicans utterly defenseless against the onslaught to come.
Here's what happens now.
1) President Obama goes on holiday.
2) December 31 arrives.
3) Taxes go up on everybody. Unemployment insurance ends. Sequester begins to go into effect.
4) Screams, howls.
5) President Obama returns to Washington, speaks to country from Oval Office or else summons special session, unveils the "Obama Tax Cut and Job Creation plan" featuring a whacking big tax cut for 98% of Americans.
6) Plan polls at 70% or better.
7) Republicans resist.
8) Republicans surrender.
9) Economy recovers, "morning in America," Obama basks in glory in 2nd term.
Plan B failed because even though Republicans knew that it was in their best interest to have it pass, no one wanted to be caught on record voting for it.
That's not just bad in a typically stubborn, right-wing, ideological sort-of-way. That's bad in a slapstick, uncoordinated, dysfunctional Three's Company sort-of-way.
The GOP has become the crew that produced the first season of NASL.
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Really there isn't an ounce worth of difference between the Republicans and Democrats. On every major issue the two parties are in lockstep. The whole phony partisan debate, left right - it's a sham. Both parties serve power. There might be a little phony political theatre, some grandstanding and a whole lot of rhetoric but at the end of the day both parties serve the warfare / welfare state and want little more than to aggrandize their own power and to accumulate wealth off the backs of everyday working Americans.
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The economy is going completely off the cliff in the next year. In combination with the fiscal cliff the dockworkers unions going on strike on every port from New york to New Orleans and the farm bill expiring (imagine how pissed people are going to get when they have to pay 7 bucks for a gallon of milk).
On December 22 2012 15:06 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I would love more than anybody to see the Republican party in a smoking pile of ruins. The party needs serious reform. The social issue right/religious right are shrinking minorities and should be abandoned entirely. The future of the party is in largely in economic policy, which they have been extremely weak on for decades. I say give the country to the Democrats until a strong distinction and therefore alternative can be offered.
Really though, all largely Democratic governments move steadily to the left as more and more people vote themselves benefits from the public treasury. That is the inevitable future, and I've never been a fan of delaying the inevitable.
People always bash the social conservatives but they ignore that women are more liely to be pro life then pro choice (democrats made the discussion about womens rights and the GOP did nothing to change this debate) Black people have always been the sticking point on voteing against gay marriage even in hugely blue states like cali, And even Cubans and Hispanics are natural republicans with strong "family values" (tbh I don't know what that means) tilts. Its just that the Fiscal conservatives have gotten so wildly incompetent with their "tax cuts increase tax income right?" nonsense and them being played like a fiddle on the lefts class warfare.
Social conservatives Is the core of the party and will be the core of the party if the GOP every excepts to be in the white house again. The fact that the GOP treats them so poorly is the reason why the left pulls them over so easily when it comes to elections. Give a good Texas republican a shot at the white house and not some ninny northeasterner that you can't tell the difference between them and a democrat. Romney's whole shtick was being a fiscal conservative and a weird morman. If your honestly going to try and blame the election loss on social conservatives after that guy you need to reexamine the political dynamics in place currently.
Ps. whens the last time you saw someone use the word shtick on the internet?
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On December 22 2012 23:25 Sermokala wrote:The economy is going completely off the cliff in the next year. In combination with the fiscal cliff the dockworkers unions going on strike on every port from New york to New Orleans and the farm bill expiring (imagine how pissed people are going to get when they have to pay 7 bucks for a gallon of milk). Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 15:06 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I would love more than anybody to see the Republican party in a smoking pile of ruins. The party needs serious reform. The social issue right/religious right are shrinking minorities and should be abandoned entirely. The future of the party is in largely in economic policy, which they have been extremely weak on for decades. I say give the country to the Democrats until a strong distinction and therefore alternative can be offered.
Really though, all largely Democratic governments move steadily to the left as more and more people vote themselves benefits from the public treasury. That is the inevitable future, and I've never been a fan of delaying the inevitable. People always bash the social conservatives but they ignore that women are more liely to be pro life then pro choice (democrats made the discussion about womens rights and the GOP did nothing to change this debate) Black people have always been the sticking point on voteing against gay marriage even in hugely blue states like cali, And even Cubans and Hispanics are natural republicans with strong "family values" (tbh I don't know what that means) tilts. Its just that the Fiscal conservatives have gotten so wildly incompetent with their "tax cuts increase tax income right?" nonsense and them being played like a fiddle on the lefts class warfare. Social conservatives Is the core of the party and will be the core of the party if the GOP every excepts to be in the white house again. The fact that the GOP treats them so poorly is the reason why the left pulls them over so easily when it comes to elections. Give a good Texas republican a shot at the white house and not some ninny northeasterner that you can't tell the difference between them and a democrat. Romney's whole shtick was being a fiscal conservative and a weird morman. If your honestly going to try and blame the election loss on social conservatives after that guy you need to reexamine the political dynamics in place currently. Ps. whens the last time you saw someone use the word shtick on the internet?
I love the admission of not understanding the "family values" arguments. I have never seen a reasonably sensible definition. What I have found though is here:
52% of women and 42% of men thought family values means "loving, taking care of, and supporting each other"
38% of women and 35% of men thought family values means "knowing right from wrong and having good values"
2% of women and 1% men thought of family values in terms of the "traditional family"
All fine qualities, but except for the "traditional family", you are really grasping at straws to actually build a political platform around it. It also puts into question, how socially conservative americans really are.
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