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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-18 01:09:38
August 18 2016 01:06 GMT
#95341
She's an experienced medical professional with clearly enough knowledge and experience to answer the question definitively. Her answer of "don't trust studies where the researcher has a vested interest in the results" is not at odds with saying that vaccines don't cause autism. It in fact corroborates it because the study that started the entire anti-vaxx scare was proven to be tainted by outside interests. The only reason she skirts around saying straight up "no, vaccines don't cause autism and you're all fucking idiots for thinking that" is because she doesn't want to alienate that part of her base. Implicitly, saying "don't trust studies where the researcher has a vested interest in the results" actually means the anti-vaxx thing is all a farce, but none of the anti-vaxxers would ever read it that way, which is exactly what she wants.

TBH I think this is true of every physician-politician who's skirted around the issue e.g. Rand Paul and Ben Carson in the GOP debates. And I personally hold it against all of them for not having the balls to just say what they know to be true.
Moderator
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44058 Posts
August 18 2016 01:10 GMT
#95342
On August 18 2016 10:06 TheYango wrote:
She's an experienced medical professional with clearly enough knowledge and experience to answer the question definitively. Her answer of "don't trust studies where the researcher has a vested interest in the results" is not at odds with saying that vaccines don't cause autism. It in fact corroborates it because the study that started the entire anti-vaxx scare was proven to be tainted by outside interests. The only reason she skirts around saying straight up "no, vaccines don't cause autism and you're all fucking idiots for thinking that" is because she doesn't want to alienate that part of her base. Implicitly, saying "don't trust studies where the researcher has a vested interest in the results" actually means the anti-vaxx thing is all a farce, but none of the anti-vaxxers would ever read it that way, which is exactly what she wants.

TBH I think this is true of every physician-politician who's skirted around the issue e.g. Rand Paul and Ben Carson in the GOP debates. And I personally hold it against all of them for not having the balls to just say what they know to be true.

Carson doesn't know anything outside of biblical truth to be true.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 18 2016 01:35 GMT
#95343
The big health care news this week came from Aetna, which announced on Monday it was dramatically scaling back participation in the Affordable Care Act ― thereby reducing insurer competition and forcing customers scattered across 11 states to find different sources of coverage next year.

Aetna officials said the pullout was necessary because of Obamacare’s problems ― specifically, deep losses the insurer was incurring in the law’s health insurance exchanges.

But the move also was directly related to a Department of Justice decision to block the insurer’s potentially lucrative merger with Humana, according to a letter from Aetna’s CEO obtained by The Huffington Post.

Paired with some looming rate increases for next year’s health plans, the abrupt departure of Aetna has triggered new worries that Obamacare ― a subsidized public-private system of health insurance plans competing for beneficiaries ― is in serious trouble and may even be unsustainable.

That’s despite millions who have obtained coverage through these marketplaces, contributing to a historically low uninsured rate. It’s also despite optimism about Obamacare from at least some insurers and experts ― optimism that Aetna’s own leaders had expressed just a few months ago.

Publicly, Aetna representatives this week framed their about-face as a reaction to losses the company was taking on Obamacare customers, and in particular figures from the second quarter of 2016 that the company had just analyzed, showing them to be sicker and costlier than predicted.

When reporters on Monday asked whether Aetna was also reacting to the administration’s attempt to thwart its merger with Humana, company officials brushed off the questions, according to accounts in the Hartford Courant, Politico and USA Today.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9216 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-18 01:54:09
August 18 2016 01:52 GMT
#95344


Amusingly awkward exchange between CNN anchor and Trump lawyer
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
August 18 2016 01:58 GMT
#95345
On August 18 2016 10:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
The big health care news this week came from Aetna, which announced on Monday it was dramatically scaling back participation in the Affordable Care Act ― thereby reducing insurer competition and forcing customers scattered across 11 states to find different sources of coverage next year.

Aetna officials said the pullout was necessary because of Obamacare’s problems ― specifically, deep losses the insurer was incurring in the law’s health insurance exchanges.

But the move also was directly related to a Department of Justice decision to block the insurer’s potentially lucrative merger with Humana, according to a letter from Aetna’s CEO obtained by The Huffington Post.

Paired with some looming rate increases for next year’s health plans, the abrupt departure of Aetna has triggered new worries that Obamacare ― a subsidized public-private system of health insurance plans competing for beneficiaries ― is in serious trouble and may even be unsustainable.

That’s despite millions who have obtained coverage through these marketplaces, contributing to a historically low uninsured rate. It’s also despite optimism about Obamacare from at least some insurers and experts ― optimism that Aetna’s own leaders had expressed just a few months ago.

Publicly, Aetna representatives this week framed their about-face as a reaction to losses the company was taking on Obamacare customers, and in particular figures from the second quarter of 2016 that the company had just analyzed, showing them to be sicker and costlier than predicted.

When reporters on Monday asked whether Aetna was also reacting to the administration’s attempt to thwart its merger with Humana, company officials brushed off the questions, according to accounts in the Hartford Courant, Politico and USA Today.


Source


If I recall correctly, opponents, prior to Obamacare's passing, were predicting massive rate hikes and the demise of Obamacare as a consequence of fiscal unsustainability in 2017. As just one example, Colorado is getting fucked hard, and the exchanges are going to fail next year.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 18 2016 02:01 GMT
#95346
On August 18 2016 10:58 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2016 10:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
The big health care news this week came from Aetna, which announced on Monday it was dramatically scaling back participation in the Affordable Care Act ― thereby reducing insurer competition and forcing customers scattered across 11 states to find different sources of coverage next year.

Aetna officials said the pullout was necessary because of Obamacare’s problems ― specifically, deep losses the insurer was incurring in the law’s health insurance exchanges.

But the move also was directly related to a Department of Justice decision to block the insurer’s potentially lucrative merger with Humana, according to a letter from Aetna’s CEO obtained by The Huffington Post.

Paired with some looming rate increases for next year’s health plans, the abrupt departure of Aetna has triggered new worries that Obamacare ― a subsidized public-private system of health insurance plans competing for beneficiaries ― is in serious trouble and may even be unsustainable.

That’s despite millions who have obtained coverage through these marketplaces, contributing to a historically low uninsured rate. It’s also despite optimism about Obamacare from at least some insurers and experts ― optimism that Aetna’s own leaders had expressed just a few months ago.

Publicly, Aetna representatives this week framed their about-face as a reaction to losses the company was taking on Obamacare customers, and in particular figures from the second quarter of 2016 that the company had just analyzed, showing them to be sicker and costlier than predicted.

When reporters on Monday asked whether Aetna was also reacting to the administration’s attempt to thwart its merger with Humana, company officials brushed off the questions, according to accounts in the Hartford Courant, Politico and USA Today.


Source


If I recall correctly, opponents, prior to Obamacare's passing, were predicting massive rate hikes and the demise of Obamacare as a consequence of fiscal unsustainability in 2017. As just one example, Colorado is getting fucked hard, and the exchanges are going to fail next year.

Except the company that is threatening to pull out said the exact opposite of what they claimed during an investor call.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
August 18 2016 02:06 GMT
#95347
On August 18 2016 11:01 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2016 10:58 xDaunt wrote:
On August 18 2016 10:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
The big health care news this week came from Aetna, which announced on Monday it was dramatically scaling back participation in the Affordable Care Act ― thereby reducing insurer competition and forcing customers scattered across 11 states to find different sources of coverage next year.

Aetna officials said the pullout was necessary because of Obamacare’s problems ― specifically, deep losses the insurer was incurring in the law’s health insurance exchanges.

But the move also was directly related to a Department of Justice decision to block the insurer’s potentially lucrative merger with Humana, according to a letter from Aetna’s CEO obtained by The Huffington Post.

Paired with some looming rate increases for next year’s health plans, the abrupt departure of Aetna has triggered new worries that Obamacare ― a subsidized public-private system of health insurance plans competing for beneficiaries ― is in serious trouble and may even be unsustainable.

That’s despite millions who have obtained coverage through these marketplaces, contributing to a historically low uninsured rate. It’s also despite optimism about Obamacare from at least some insurers and experts ― optimism that Aetna’s own leaders had expressed just a few months ago.

Publicly, Aetna representatives this week framed their about-face as a reaction to losses the company was taking on Obamacare customers, and in particular figures from the second quarter of 2016 that the company had just analyzed, showing them to be sicker and costlier than predicted.

When reporters on Monday asked whether Aetna was also reacting to the administration’s attempt to thwart its merger with Humana, company officials brushed off the questions, according to accounts in the Hartford Courant, Politico and USA Today.


Source


If I recall correctly, opponents, prior to Obamacare's passing, were predicting massive rate hikes and the demise of Obamacare as a consequence of fiscal unsustainability in 2017. As just one example, Colorado is getting fucked hard, and the exchanges are going to fail next year.

Except the company that is threatening to pull out said the exact opposite of what they claimed during an investor call.

Then they are free to be sued by shareholders. Doesn't change the fact that Obamacare is going down in flames as predicted.
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7328 Posts
August 18 2016 02:09 GMT
#95348
On August 18 2016 10:58 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2016 10:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
The big health care news this week came from Aetna, which announced on Monday it was dramatically scaling back participation in the Affordable Care Act ― thereby reducing insurer competition and forcing customers scattered across 11 states to find different sources of coverage next year.

Aetna officials said the pullout was necessary because of Obamacare’s problems ― specifically, deep losses the insurer was incurring in the law’s health insurance exchanges.

But the move also was directly related to a Department of Justice decision to block the insurer’s potentially lucrative merger with Humana, according to a letter from Aetna’s CEO obtained by The Huffington Post.

Paired with some looming rate increases for next year’s health plans, the abrupt departure of Aetna has triggered new worries that Obamacare ― a subsidized public-private system of health insurance plans competing for beneficiaries ― is in serious trouble and may even be unsustainable.

That’s despite millions who have obtained coverage through these marketplaces, contributing to a historically low uninsured rate. It’s also despite optimism about Obamacare from at least some insurers and experts ― optimism that Aetna’s own leaders had expressed just a few months ago.

Publicly, Aetna representatives this week framed their about-face as a reaction to losses the company was taking on Obamacare customers, and in particular figures from the second quarter of 2016 that the company had just analyzed, showing them to be sicker and costlier than predicted.

When reporters on Monday asked whether Aetna was also reacting to the administration’s attempt to thwart its merger with Humana, company officials brushed off the questions, according to accounts in the Hartford Courant, Politico and USA Today.


Source


If I recall correctly, opponents, prior to Obamacare's passing, were predicting massive rate hikes and the demise of Obamacare as a consequence of fiscal unsustainability in 2017. As just one example, Colorado is getting fucked hard, and the exchanges are going to fail next year.


This is a fair point. The cost of insurance will always increase as long as health care costs increase. Until that is addressed we are always going to be fighting a losing battle.

I still am for the ACA as it was needed for a start. It just didn't go far enough. The health insurance plans that were made illegal by the ACA was a great thing. Thats the biggest victory I see in this thing.


Time to go after the charge master and big pharma


How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18863 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-18 02:11:39
August 18 2016 02:11 GMT
#95349
"Here's this thing that Aetna did, it's a clear signal that Obamacare is failing."

"Actually, Aetna has leveraged market pullouts before and there's reason to believe that that is what is happening here."

"Yeah well clearly Obamacare is failing anyhow!"

Lol ok

Edit: Sadist knows what's up.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
August 18 2016 02:13 GMT
#95350
On August 18 2016 11:11 farvacola wrote:
"Here's this thing that Aetna did, it's a clear signal that Obamacare is failing."

"Actually, Aetna has leveraged market pullouts before and there's reason to believe that that is what is happening here."

"Yeah well clearly Obamacare is failing anyhow!"

Lol ok

You may want to look at the looming rate hikes, the ever-increasing numbers of failed state exchanges, and the situation in specific states where the exchanges are about to fail (Colorado being a great example) before bringing the ignorant snark.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18863 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-18 02:16:20
August 18 2016 02:15 GMT
#95351
Don't misunderstand me, it's clear that Obamacare needs to change; what that change looks like is where the disagreement comes about, and this Aetna debacle isn't a great example either way.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-18 02:20:09
August 18 2016 02:18 GMT
#95352
On August 18 2016 11:06 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2016 11:01 Plansix wrote:
On August 18 2016 10:58 xDaunt wrote:
On August 18 2016 10:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
The big health care news this week came from Aetna, which announced on Monday it was dramatically scaling back participation in the Affordable Care Act ― thereby reducing insurer competition and forcing customers scattered across 11 states to find different sources of coverage next year.

Aetna officials said the pullout was necessary because of Obamacare’s problems ― specifically, deep losses the insurer was incurring in the law’s health insurance exchanges.

But the move also was directly related to a Department of Justice decision to block the insurer’s potentially lucrative merger with Humana, according to a letter from Aetna’s CEO obtained by The Huffington Post.

Paired with some looming rate increases for next year’s health plans, the abrupt departure of Aetna has triggered new worries that Obamacare ― a subsidized public-private system of health insurance plans competing for beneficiaries ― is in serious trouble and may even be unsustainable.

That’s despite millions who have obtained coverage through these marketplaces, contributing to a historically low uninsured rate. It’s also despite optimism about Obamacare from at least some insurers and experts ― optimism that Aetna’s own leaders had expressed just a few months ago.

Publicly, Aetna representatives this week framed their about-face as a reaction to losses the company was taking on Obamacare customers, and in particular figures from the second quarter of 2016 that the company had just analyzed, showing them to be sicker and costlier than predicted.

When reporters on Monday asked whether Aetna was also reacting to the administration’s attempt to thwart its merger with Humana, company officials brushed off the questions, according to accounts in the Hartford Courant, Politico and USA Today.


Source


If I recall correctly, opponents, prior to Obamacare's passing, were predicting massive rate hikes and the demise of Obamacare as a consequence of fiscal unsustainability in 2017. As just one example, Colorado is getting fucked hard, and the exchanges are going to fail next year.

Except the company that is threatening to pull out said the exact opposite of what they claimed during an investor call.

Then they are free to be sued by shareholders. Doesn't change the fact that Obamacare is going down in flames as predicted.

Or they are lying about pulling out because they are mad about being denied a merger and they want to use that as leverage. And my reading of Colorado was their health care industry was borderline dysfunctional before the ACA. Their health care costs are almost identical to my state and our cost of living is way higher up here.

On August 18 2016 11:15 farvacola wrote:
Don't misunderstand me, it's clear that Obamacare needs to change; what that change looks like is where the disagreement comes about, and this Aetna debacle isn't a great example either way.


Yeah, the system needs work. Sadly we will need to wait until after the election to even hope of some movement on updating the law. Maybe by that point the tea party babies will be gone.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
August 18 2016 02:19 GMT
#95353
Meh, the failings of Obamacare so far seem mostly to be the standard fare of difficulties in adjustment that inevitably follow such a large scale change. Perhaps its biggest fault is that it didn't end up implementing the public option which would have probably made everything run much more smoothly overall.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 18 2016 02:21 GMT
#95354
On August 18 2016 10:52 Dan HH wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd_GOEMz3og

Amusingly awkward exchange between CNN anchor and Trump lawyer

I really just wanted her to stay "Reality".
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
August 18 2016 02:22 GMT
#95355
On August 18 2016 11:09 Sadist wrote:
I still am for the ACA as it was needed for a start. It just didn't go far enough. The health insurance plans that were made illegal by the ACA was a great thing. Thats the biggest victory I see in this thing.

The ACA made a lot of very positive changes for American healthcare as a whole (some of them very minor but nonetheless didn't come into existence until the ACA basically forced them through). People just focus on the most divisive component of it and treat it like it's the whole thing.

While I have mixed feelings about the exchanges as implemented by the ACA, I cannot agree with the Republican goal of repealing the ACA in its entirety. It would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Moderator
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18863 Posts
August 18 2016 02:25 GMT
#95356
Get single payer finally and take states out of the process entirely, I say.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
August 18 2016 02:28 GMT
#95357
On August 18 2016 11:19 LegalLord wrote:
Meh, the failings of Obamacare so far seem mostly to be the standard fare of difficulties in adjustment that inevitably follow such a large scale change. Perhaps its biggest fault is that it didn't end up implementing the public option which would have probably made everything run much more smoothly overall.

At the time when Obamacare was still being debated, there were many people on the far right who argued that Obamacare was secretly a poison pill for the private insurance regime that would ultimately lead to the need for universal care. I didn't pay much mind to that argument at the time -- especially given that the medical insurance companies were participating in the legislation -- but it's looking rather prophetic now.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 18 2016 02:28 GMT
#95358
On August 18 2016 11:25 farvacola wrote:
Get single payer finally and take states out of the process entirely, I say.

The state are in charge only deludes them into believe health care can remain a market driven, for profit industry.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18863 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-18 02:30:51
August 18 2016 02:29 GMT
#95359
On August 18 2016 11:28 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2016 11:19 LegalLord wrote:
Meh, the failings of Obamacare so far seem mostly to be the standard fare of difficulties in adjustment that inevitably follow such a large scale change. Perhaps its biggest fault is that it didn't end up implementing the public option which would have probably made everything run much more smoothly overall.

At the time when Obamacare was still being debated, there were many people on the far right who argued that Obamacare was secretly a poison pill for the private insurance regime that would ultimately lead to the need for universal care. I didn't pay much mind to that argument at the time -- especially given that the medical insurance companies were participating in the legislation -- but it's looking rather prophetic now.

Folks who characterize Obamacare that way tend to conveniently ignore the stunningly poor state of the health insurance industry prior to its passage. Healthcare didn't need a poison pill because it was already sick.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
August 18 2016 02:30 GMT
#95360
On August 18 2016 11:19 LegalLord wrote:
Meh, the failings of Obamacare so far seem mostly to be the standard fare of difficulties in adjustment that inevitably follow such a large scale change. Perhaps its biggest fault is that it didn't end up implementing the public option which would have probably made everything run much more smoothly overall.

The real problem is that it was based on the false assumption that insurance was the issue that drives American healthcare costs. The problem of cost is driven by a few things:
1) The AMA driving for ever higher accreditation requirements increasing the cost of medical school, thus doctor pay;
2) Local "health and safety" regulations that essentially create monopolies and stop nurses or other medical professionals from working without doctors;
3) Our drug/device costs are actually representative of what the free market cost should be, other countries have artificially low rates because of the government monopoly, and that R&D is inherently a sunk cost; then
#4 is probably our payment model being suboptimal.
Freeeeeeedom
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