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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 23 2013 22:17 GMT
#9321
Oh, and back on Cruz for a second. I'm sure that this has been pointed out already in this thread, but it's worth reiterating. Cruz is doing exactly what he promised that he would do: get rid of Obamacare. Imagine that... a politician following through on a promise that he made to his constituents even if it means bucking his [retarded] party and risking a government shutdown (not that I expect the shutdown to happen).
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 22:23:47
September 23 2013 22:22 GMT
#9322
On September 24 2013 07:01 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 06:51 HunterX11 wrote:
On September 24 2013 06:49 xDaunt wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:34 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
This is about Ted Cruz trying to gauge his chances for President, damn whether he burns his own party or not. Listen to Chris Wallace:


It's not "burning his own party" if he's right. Yeah, he's probably going to lose on this particular fight. However, so long as Obamacare turns into the turd in a punch bowl that it's expected to be, he'll have a very, very powerful weapon to use against republican and democratic opponents in 2016 if he runs.


That's a pretty big "however". Obamacare certainly isn't UHC and it is probably just going to postpone the inevitable collapse of our healthcare economy, but in terms of what any given individual voter is going to see come about as a result of it (if anything), it will probably be a small positive.

To the contrary, all signs are pointing to Obamacare accelerating the collapse of private healthcare. Cost and savings projections have continuously worsened since Obamacare was passed. Given what we know today about how the program is evolving, I doubt that it would have passed in 2010.


Where are you getting your information?

CBO says premiums will be cheaper than expected.

CBO says Net Budgetary impact has not changed much over time.

May I remind you of another time where you said things that were dependent strongly on living in the right wing bubble that you were hilariously wrong about?
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 23 2013 22:52 GMT
#9323
WASHINGTON -- Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) doesn't back the push by Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) to vote against bringing up a bill to defund Obamacare, a McConnell aide told The Huffington Post.

"Senator McConnell supports the House Republicans' bill and will not vote to block it, since it defunds Obamacare and funds the government without increasing spending by a penny," McConnell spokesman Don Stewart said.

Until now, McConnell has been largely quiet as Cruz has been ramping up his calls on Senate Republicans to filibuster the funding bill when it comes up for a vote this week. The measure, passed by the House Thursday, would do two things: fund the government past Oct. 1 and defund President Obama's health care law. Since Democrats control the Senate, and since they've already vowed to strip out the Obamacare provision and only hold a clean vote on funding the government, Cruz is urging Republicans to vote against bringing up the bill at all -- and be willing to risk a government shutdown. On top of that, Cruz has argued that anyone who even votes to bring up the bill is, in effect, voting for Obamacare.

Stewart said McConnell is far more interested in voting directly on the bill to defund Obamacare.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 23 2013 23:08 GMT
#9324
On September 24 2013 07:17 xDaunt wrote:
Oh, and back on Cruz for a second. I'm sure that this has been pointed out already in this thread, but it's worth reiterating. Cruz is doing exactly what he promised that he would do: get rid of Obamacare. Imagine that... a politician following through on a promise that he made to his constituents even if it means bucking his [retarded] party and risking a government shutdown (not that I expect the shutdown to happen).


Except he's not doing that, he knows the Bill in it's current form will not pass. If he did think then why is he filibustering it? Because he wants more and more political points to perhaps use in 2016.

Let me repeat: He's filibustering the exact bill he said he wanted.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 23 2013 23:10 GMT
#9325
On September 24 2013 08:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 07:17 xDaunt wrote:
Oh, and back on Cruz for a second. I'm sure that this has been pointed out already in this thread, but it's worth reiterating. Cruz is doing exactly what he promised that he would do: get rid of Obamacare. Imagine that... a politician following through on a promise that he made to his constituents even if it means bucking his [retarded] party and risking a government shutdown (not that I expect the shutdown to happen).


Except he's not doing that, he knows the Bill in it's current form will not pass. If he did think then why is he filibustering it? Because he wants more and more political points to perhaps use in 2016.

Let me repeat: He's filibustering the exact bill he said he wanted.


Oh please. You're being disingenuous. He's filibustering the bill to stop Reid from being able to change the bill to refund Obamacare and to try to pressure Reid into accepting the bill as is (not that it will work).
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 23 2013 23:20 GMT
#9326
On September 24 2013 08:10 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 08:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On September 24 2013 07:17 xDaunt wrote:
Oh, and back on Cruz for a second. I'm sure that this has been pointed out already in this thread, but it's worth reiterating. Cruz is doing exactly what he promised that he would do: get rid of Obamacare. Imagine that... a politician following through on a promise that he made to his constituents even if it means bucking his [retarded] party and risking a government shutdown (not that I expect the shutdown to happen).


Except he's not doing that, he knows the Bill in it's current form will not pass. If he did think then why is he filibustering it? Because he wants more and more political points to perhaps use in 2016.

Let me repeat: He's filibustering the exact bill he said he wanted.


Oh please. You're being disingenuous. He's filibustering the bill to stop Reid from being able to change the bill to refund Obamacare and to try to pressure Reid into accepting the bill as is (not that it will work).


What are you talking about voting to defund Obamacare won't actually stop the law, this is what Karl Rove and GOP leaders have been screaming about. It will be funded no matter what Cruz does, this all started when Cruz toured the country and did town halls in late August when he said the Senate should allow a vote to defund Obamacare led by the always opportunistic Eric Cantor.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 23 2013 23:27 GMT
#9327
On September 24 2013 08:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 08:10 xDaunt wrote:
On September 24 2013 08:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On September 24 2013 07:17 xDaunt wrote:
Oh, and back on Cruz for a second. I'm sure that this has been pointed out already in this thread, but it's worth reiterating. Cruz is doing exactly what he promised that he would do: get rid of Obamacare. Imagine that... a politician following through on a promise that he made to his constituents even if it means bucking his [retarded] party and risking a government shutdown (not that I expect the shutdown to happen).


Except he's not doing that, he knows the Bill in it's current form will not pass. If he did think then why is he filibustering it? Because he wants more and more political points to perhaps use in 2016.

Let me repeat: He's filibustering the exact bill he said he wanted.


Oh please. You're being disingenuous. He's filibustering the bill to stop Reid from being able to change the bill to refund Obamacare and to try to pressure Reid into accepting the bill as is (not that it will work).


What are you talking about voting to defund Obamacare won't actually stop the law, this is what Karl Rove and GOP leaders have been screaming about. It will be funded no matter what Cruz does, this all started when Cruz toured the country and did town halls in late August when he said the Senate should allow a vote to defund Obamacare led by the always opportunistic Eric Cantor.

No, that is not what they are saying. Rove simply pointed out in his op-ed that Cruz's tactic won't work because it is too easy for the democrats in he the Senate to reimplement the the funding in the bill and send it back to the house. It is not that defunding Obamacare won't do anything, it is that defunding Obamacare isn't politically possible. That is the criticism.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
September 23 2013 23:27 GMT
#9328
On September 24 2013 08:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 08:10 xDaunt wrote:
On September 24 2013 08:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On September 24 2013 07:17 xDaunt wrote:
Oh, and back on Cruz for a second. I'm sure that this has been pointed out already in this thread, but it's worth reiterating. Cruz is doing exactly what he promised that he would do: get rid of Obamacare. Imagine that... a politician following through on a promise that he made to his constituents even if it means bucking his [retarded] party and risking a government shutdown (not that I expect the shutdown to happen).


Except he's not doing that, he knows the Bill in it's current form will not pass. If he did think then why is he filibustering it? Because he wants more and more political points to perhaps use in 2016.

Let me repeat: He's filibustering the exact bill he said he wanted.


Oh please. You're being disingenuous. He's filibustering the bill to stop Reid from being able to change the bill to refund Obamacare and to try to pressure Reid into accepting the bill as is (not that it will work).


What are you talking about voting to defund Obamacare won't actually stop the law, this is what Karl Rove and GOP leaders have been screaming about. It will be funded no matter what Cruz does, this all started when Cruz toured the country and did town halls in late August when he said the Senate should allow a vote to defund Obamacare led by the always opportunistic Eric Cantor.

Didn't Cruz go around blasting GOP colleagues for not sticking by their guns and voting to defund Obamacare? I don't see the functional difference between then and now, since the language would be stripped no matter what the stage/timing. All I see here is Cruz trying to differentiate himself from the rest of the GOP (like normal), so he can still play the "outsider" card during his next election run (whatever/whenever that is).
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 23 2013 23:42 GMT
#9329
No he went around after Conservatives were reluctant to allowing a further vote so close to the debt ceiling and closing budget deadlines. That is when the first rumblings about Cruz started about him bullying members of the house, pointing to the town halls etc. Eric Cantor, who wants the speakership, and Boehner, who wants to keep the speakership went along, Boehner hesitated at first knowing what would happen. Suddenly Ted Cruz goes one step further saying he will filibuster etc in which less that week before deadline while other Tea Party members formed the bright idea that a govt shut down even default would stop Obamacare if nothing else worked.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Adila
Profile Joined April 2010
United States874 Posts
September 24 2013 00:24 GMT
#9330
It's time for Ted Cruz to put up or shut up. Filibuster it now or stay quiet and do some actual work for a change.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 24 2013 03:46 GMT
#9331
When Republicans stick to their guns and follow the demands of their constituents, it's radical. When Republicans ignore their constituents and just pop up good sound bites near election season to get re-elected, that's deemed acceptable. The logic is flawed. The party will fall apart if nobody on Capitol hill will fight the bill. Nobody will vote them back into office if they aren't down for the struggle. It's about time some of these moderates show their true colors so they can be voted out next time.

Let the slates and thinkprogresses of the world celebrate when the increase in health insurance premiums don't increase by quite as much as they first expected. It's a terrible bill down the line. If anybody is seriously interested in helping make health care more affordable, they'll vote to defund and start work on a helpful bill. This is just pure poison for health insurance and the economy.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-24 04:05:16
September 24 2013 04:04 GMT
#9332
There are a lot of great things in the bill that Republicans should support, such as the elimination of pre-existing condition exemptions, and letting insurance companies sell nationwide instead of being in-state.
The bill passed the House and Senate, and is signed into law. The Supreme Court even reviewed it. It's in.

What the Republicans should all agree to do is grow up and let the Republic handle it. Right-wing talking heads keep saying "America doesn't want this bill." How about you actually prove that, and create your own ideas into law, once you get yourselves elected-control of the government based on the promise to eliminate Obamacare?
Big water
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
September 24 2013 04:13 GMT
#9333
On September 24 2013 12:46 Danglars wrote:
When Republicans stick to their guns and follow the demands of their constituents, it's radical. When Republicans ignore their constituents and just pop up good sound bites near election season to get re-elected, that's deemed acceptable. The logic is flawed. The party will fall apart if nobody on Capitol hill will fight the bill. Nobody will vote them back into office if they aren't down for the struggle. It's about time some of these moderates show their true colors so they can be voted out next time.

Let the slates and thinkprogresses of the world celebrate when the increase in health insurance premiums don't increase by quite as much as they first expected. It's a terrible bill down the line. If anybody is seriously interested in helping make health care more affordable, they'll vote to defund and start work on a helpful bill. This is just pure poison for health insurance and the economy.

its radical because they arent telling their constituency 'and to stop this bill that most of you dont understand but instinctively fear because Fox News told you so we are going to scuttle America's credit rating and unleash a financial catastrophe'
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 24 2013 04:16 GMT
#9334
sounds kina fun tbh
shikata ga nai
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 24 2013 05:18 GMT
#9335
financial catastrophes are the funnest
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 24 2013 05:30 GMT
#9336
Pre-existing conditions jack up rates. You're taking on a high-cost patient and lo-and-behold, it costs more. Subsidizing these rates with healthy people is a complex issue and Obamacare's fix is nowhere close to fixing the problems. It heavily underestimates costs. PCIP is running out of money, its costs have been 2.5 times higher than anticipated.(annual report) If you can't accurately predict the plan's enrollment, or the plan's costs, it casts doubts all over how well your fix is going to work.

I love the throwaway lines about opposition to Obamacare. It's great, it's fixing things left and right, and all the opposition is from dumb voters. My side is smart, your side is dumb. It's the current evolution of "they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." The left is compensating for their shock that not everybody likes their glittery new idea for health care. They'll call their political opponents names until the cows come home. That's the nature of the beast.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
September 24 2013 05:36 GMT
#9337
On September 24 2013 14:30 Danglars wrote:
Pre-existing conditions jack up rates. You're taking on a high-cost patient and lo-and-behold, it costs more. Subsidizing these rates with healthy people is a complex issue and Obamacare's fix is nowhere close to fixing the problems. It heavily underestimates costs. PCIP is running out of money, its costs have been 2.5 times higher than anticipated.(annual report) If you can't accurately predict the plan's enrollment, or the plan's costs, it casts doubts all over how well your fix is going to work.

I love the throwaway lines about opposition to Obamacare. It's great, it's fixing things left and right, and all the opposition is from dumb voters. My side is smart, your side is dumb. It's the current evolution of "they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." The left is compensating for their shock that not everybody likes their glittery new idea for health care. They'll call their political opponents names until the cows come home. That's the nature of the beast.

You keep thinking that, bud.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 24 2013 06:31 GMT
#9338
On September 24 2013 14:30 Danglars wrote:
Pre-existing conditions jack up rates. You're taking on a high-cost patient and lo-and-behold, it costs more. Subsidizing these rates with healthy people is a complex issue and Obamacare's fix is nowhere close to fixing the problems. It heavily underestimates costs. PCIP is running out of money, its costs have been 2.5 times higher than anticipated.(annual report) If you can't accurately predict the plan's enrollment, or the plan's costs, it casts doubts all over how well your fix is going to work.

I love the throwaway lines about opposition to Obamacare. It's great, it's fixing things left and right, and all the opposition is from dumb voters. My side is smart, your side is dumb. It's the current evolution of "they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." The left is compensating for their shock that not everybody likes their glittery new idea for health care. They'll call their political opponents names until the cows come home. That's the nature of the beast.



In a sick twist of fate, Ted Cruz calls for a single-payer system in order to reduce costs by 40%!!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1079830/

On a yearly basis the net cost saving to the government is $191,733 per year (2003 $Can) equating to $3,687 per physician or $63,911 per facilitator, an estimated return on intervention investment and delivery of appropriate preventive care of 40%.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 24 2013 08:01 GMT
#9339
this leftist hates romneycare as much as you do
shikata ga nai
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
September 24 2013 11:55 GMT
#9340
every doctor conscientious enough to speak up would agree, we need single payer to reduce cost. the rest are looking for revenge for med school.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
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