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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4491

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9137 Posts
July 26 2016 20:30 GMT
#89801
On July 27 2016 05:06 zeo wrote:
edit: tbh he should have just left quietly. Endorsing her is getting embarrassing.

Why is it embarrassing? He explained very eloquently why he doesn't want a Trump presidency. Embarrasing would be to put his actual thoughts aside in order to pander to his loudest fans.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 26 2016 20:32 GMT
#89802
On July 27 2016 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 05:25 LegalLord wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:06 zeo wrote:


edit: tbh he should have just left quietly. Endorsing her is getting embarrassing.

I sense that he was promised something significant conditional upon Hillary winning the election.

As GH put it, Bernie will do what he must, and so should his supporters.

Bernie doesn't want Trump to win, simple as that.
He stands for his platform and while Hillary is not the candidate he wants he knows that Trump will destroy what Bernie seeks to accomplish.

Possible, and we don't know for sure, but I sense it's more than that. It's a significant reversal from his earlier position that Hillary will have to play her own part in winning over his supporters.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15725 Posts
July 26 2016 20:33 GMT
#89803
On July 27 2016 05:30 Dan HH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 05:06 zeo wrote:
edit: tbh he should have just left quietly. Endorsing her is getting embarrassing.

Why is it embarrassing? He explained very eloquently why he doesn't want a Trump presidency. Embarrasing would be to put his actual thoughts aside in order to pander to his loudest fans.

Because when you break down the complexity of issues into "us vs them", this kinda thinking takes place. It's sad because it's downright false. It's not a weirdly inaccurate way to go through life. You hear a lot of people talk about how they won't let people tell them only 2 candidates have a chance at winning. It's like dude, that's straight up true and a big reason you wanted Bernie to win, to correct that system. If you were against a system, and it hasn't been solved yet, it's probably still the system.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6319 Posts
July 26 2016 20:34 GMT
#89804


Its started (I think)
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 26 2016 20:35 GMT
#89805
On July 27 2016 05:32 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:25 LegalLord wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:06 zeo wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=35&v=p0Ik8m9iX5o

edit: tbh he should have just left quietly. Endorsing her is getting embarrassing.

I sense that he was promised something significant conditional upon Hillary winning the election.

As GH put it, Bernie will do what he must, and so should his supporters.

Bernie doesn't want Trump to win, simple as that.
He stands for his platform and while Hillary is not the candidate he wants he knows that Trump will destroy what Bernie seeks to accomplish.

Possible, and we don't know for sure, but I sense it's more than that. It's a significant reversal from his earlier position that Hillary will have to play her own part in winning over his supporters.

To be honest, it is partly his fault for allowing his supporters to demonize her for so long and not giving them realistic expectations. And demonizing her himself. Obama v Clinton was super nasty up until the convention, but everyone operated under the understanding that whoever won was the only way forward.

And some of them are just babies.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21961 Posts
July 26 2016 20:38 GMT
#89806
On July 27 2016 05:35 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 05:32 LegalLord wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:25 LegalLord wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:06 zeo wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=35&v=p0Ik8m9iX5o

edit: tbh he should have just left quietly. Endorsing her is getting embarrassing.

I sense that he was promised something significant conditional upon Hillary winning the election.

As GH put it, Bernie will do what he must, and so should his supporters.

Bernie doesn't want Trump to win, simple as that.
He stands for his platform and while Hillary is not the candidate he wants he knows that Trump will destroy what Bernie seeks to accomplish.

Possible, and we don't know for sure, but I sense it's more than that. It's a significant reversal from his earlier position that Hillary will have to play her own part in winning over his supporters.

To be honest, it is partly his fault for allowing his supporters to demonize her for so long and not giving them realistic expectations. And demonizing her himself. Obama v Clinton was super nasty up until the convention, but everyone operated under the understanding that whoever won was the only way forward.

And some of them are just babies.

Didn't Obama draw on a fair few new idealistic voters? I think the only reason we didn't see similar things happening in 2008 was because Obama won instead of Hillary.

If Bernie had won this time I'm pretty sure the Hillary crowd would have fallen in line without all this mess. It is the nature of the losing voters, not the campaign itself.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 26 2016 20:44 GMT
#89807
On July 27 2016 05:38 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 05:35 Plansix wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:32 LegalLord wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:25 LegalLord wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:06 zeo wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=35&v=p0Ik8m9iX5o

edit: tbh he should have just left quietly. Endorsing her is getting embarrassing.

I sense that he was promised something significant conditional upon Hillary winning the election.

As GH put it, Bernie will do what he must, and so should his supporters.

Bernie doesn't want Trump to win, simple as that.
He stands for his platform and while Hillary is not the candidate he wants he knows that Trump will destroy what Bernie seeks to accomplish.

Possible, and we don't know for sure, but I sense it's more than that. It's a significant reversal from his earlier position that Hillary will have to play her own part in winning over his supporters.

To be honest, it is partly his fault for allowing his supporters to demonize her for so long and not giving them realistic expectations. And demonizing her himself. Obama v Clinton was super nasty up until the convention, but everyone operated under the understanding that whoever won was the only way forward.

And some of them are just babies.

Didn't Obama draw on a fair few new idealistic voters? I think the only reason we didn't see similar things happening in 2008 was because Obama won instead of Hillary.

If Bernie had won this time I'm pretty sure the Hillary crowd would have fallen in line without all this mess. It is the nature of the losing voters, not the campaign itself.

I think we would have seen a similar sort of fall out. But the key with that one is that neither side was trying to display the other as corrupt or rigging the system, so they would have come together. Obama never made that argument, even though the DNC favored Clinton by a lot. People forget that it was Bill who gave a powerful speech during the convention telling the DNC that he and the party were putting their faith in Obama.

But Bernie isn’t a democrat. He sat this stuff out every election and it shows. He wasn’t prepared to have to rally his supporters behind someone else. And they were not prepared to have to do it to accomplish what he wants.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-26 20:45:09
July 26 2016 20:44 GMT
#89808
Politics always swings between left and right. If you are a purist Bernie supporter you are better off hoping Trump wins in 2016 so that a strong enough progressive movement can come back with a vengeance in 2020 or 2024. If Hillary wins in 2016, progressive energy will be wasted defending a corporate Democrat for 4 years. When Hillary passes the TPP Democrats, especially the Bernie Democrats, will be left with a bag of shit they didn't want in the first place.

It's better to spend 4 years attacking Trump rather than 4 years defending Hillary.
rip passion
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 26 2016 20:45 GMT
#89809
The underlying problem with Democrat/Progressive unity is Hillary herself. Looking at the situation in the light most favorable to her, she lacks the charisma to unify the party like Obama did after that nasty primary. Looking at the situation a little more realistically, she clearly is unlikable to a large chunk of the Democrat base, which makes it very difficult to rally behind her.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15725 Posts
July 26 2016 20:46 GMT
#89810
On July 27 2016 05:44 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 05:38 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:35 Plansix wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:32 LegalLord wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:25 LegalLord wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:06 zeo wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=35&v=p0Ik8m9iX5o

edit: tbh he should have just left quietly. Endorsing her is getting embarrassing.

I sense that he was promised something significant conditional upon Hillary winning the election.

As GH put it, Bernie will do what he must, and so should his supporters.

Bernie doesn't want Trump to win, simple as that.
He stands for his platform and while Hillary is not the candidate he wants he knows that Trump will destroy what Bernie seeks to accomplish.

Possible, and we don't know for sure, but I sense it's more than that. It's a significant reversal from his earlier position that Hillary will have to play her own part in winning over his supporters.

To be honest, it is partly his fault for allowing his supporters to demonize her for so long and not giving them realistic expectations. And demonizing her himself. Obama v Clinton was super nasty up until the convention, but everyone operated under the understanding that whoever won was the only way forward.

And some of them are just babies.

Didn't Obama draw on a fair few new idealistic voters? I think the only reason we didn't see similar things happening in 2008 was because Obama won instead of Hillary.

If Bernie had won this time I'm pretty sure the Hillary crowd would have fallen in line without all this mess. It is the nature of the losing voters, not the campaign itself.

I think we would have seen a similar sort of fall out. But the key with that one is that neither side was trying to display the other as corrupt or rigging the system, so they would have come together. Obama never made that argument, even though the DNC favored Clinton by a lot. People forget that it was Bill who gave a powerful speech during the convention telling the DNC that he and the party were putting their faith in Obama.

But Bernie isn’t a democrat. He sat this stuff out every election and it shows. He wasn’t prepared to have to rally his supporters behind someone else. And they were not prepared to have to do it to accomplish what he wants.

He directly said many times he has no concern about hurting Clinton's electability. It wasn't accidental. He was willing to burn the house down in hopes of being president.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
July 26 2016 20:47 GMT
#89811
On July 27 2016 05:45 xDaunt wrote:
The underlying problem with Democrat/Progressive unity is Hillary herself. Looking at the situation in the light most favorable to her, she lacks the charisma to unify the party like Obama did after that nasty primary. Looking at the situation a little more realistically, she clearly is unlikable to a large chunk of the Democrat base, which makes it very difficult to rally behind her.


Donald Trump makes it very easy to rally.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 26 2016 20:48 GMT
#89812
On July 27 2016 05:47 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 05:45 xDaunt wrote:
The underlying problem with Democrat/Progressive unity is Hillary herself. Looking at the situation in the light most favorable to her, she lacks the charisma to unify the party like Obama did after that nasty primary. Looking at the situation a little more realistically, she clearly is unlikable to a large chunk of the Democrat base, which makes it very difficult to rally behind her.


Donald Trump makes it very easy to rally.

That theory hasn't worked out so well thus far.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 26 2016 20:51 GMT
#89813
On July 27 2016 05:45 xDaunt wrote:
The underlying problem with Democrat/Progressive unity is Hillary herself. Looking at the situation in the light most favorable to her, she lacks the charisma to unify the party like Obama did after that nasty primary. Looking at the situation a little more realistically, she clearly is unlikable to a large chunk of the Democrat base, which makes it very difficult to rally behind her.

As Mohdoo said, Bernie did a lot to hurt her. A lot was done by her too, but the protracted and nasty efforts for him to win didn’t help her favorability within democrats.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15725 Posts
July 26 2016 20:52 GMT
#89814
On July 27 2016 05:48 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 05:47 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:45 xDaunt wrote:
The underlying problem with Democrat/Progressive unity is Hillary herself. Looking at the situation in the light most favorable to her, she lacks the charisma to unify the party like Obama did after that nasty primary. Looking at the situation a little more realistically, she clearly is unlikable to a large chunk of the Democrat base, which makes it very difficult to rally behind her.


Donald Trump makes it very easy to rally.

That theory hasn't worked out so well thus far.

People can be livid about Sanders and still vote for Clinton. As an Oregonian, this is basically the case everywhere, especially in Portland. I don't know how to fully convey just how bad people think trump is. People see him as Hitler. People are mad, pissed even that they have to vote Clinton. They are quick to point out Clinton is awful and the worst but that electing trump is just beyond reasonable. Impossible even for them.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
July 26 2016 20:53 GMT
#89815
On July 27 2016 05:48 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 05:47 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:45 xDaunt wrote:
The underlying problem with Democrat/Progressive unity is Hillary herself. Looking at the situation in the light most favorable to her, she lacks the charisma to unify the party like Obama did after that nasty primary. Looking at the situation a little more realistically, she clearly is unlikable to a large chunk of the Democrat base, which makes it very difficult to rally behind her.


Donald Trump makes it very easy to rally.

That theory hasn't worked out so well thus far.


Well the primaries are now over.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 26 2016 20:55 GMT
#89816
On July 27 2016 05:48 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 05:47 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:45 xDaunt wrote:
The underlying problem with Democrat/Progressive unity is Hillary herself. Looking at the situation in the light most favorable to her, she lacks the charisma to unify the party like Obama did after that nasty primary. Looking at the situation a little more realistically, she clearly is unlikable to a large chunk of the Democrat base, which makes it very difficult to rally behind her.


Donald Trump makes it very easy to rally.

That theory hasn't worked out so well thus far.

Well they have a bunch of booing delegates and that is about it. They still haven’t had a Ted Cruz moment where he flat out tells people to maybe vote for Clinton if you don’t like Trump.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6319 Posts
July 26 2016 20:55 GMT
#89817
Roll call coming up, if drama is going to happen its going to happen now.
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15725 Posts
July 26 2016 20:57 GMT
#89818
On July 27 2016 05:55 zeo wrote:
Roll call coming up, if drama is going to happen its going to happen now.

It'll happen, but just an annoyance, like yesterday
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 26 2016 20:58 GMT
#89819
On July 27 2016 05:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2016 05:48 xDaunt wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:47 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 27 2016 05:45 xDaunt wrote:
The underlying problem with Democrat/Progressive unity is Hillary herself. Looking at the situation in the light most favorable to her, she lacks the charisma to unify the party like Obama did after that nasty primary. Looking at the situation a little more realistically, she clearly is unlikable to a large chunk of the Democrat base, which makes it very difficult to rally behind her.


Donald Trump makes it very easy to rally.

That theory hasn't worked out so well thus far.

People can be livid about Sanders and still vote for Clinton. As an Oregonian, this is basically the case everywhere, especially in Portland. I don't know how to fully convey just how bad people think trump is. People see him as Hitler. People are mad, pissed even that they have to vote Clinton. They are quick to point out Clinton is awful and the worst but that electing trump is just beyond reasonable. Impossible even for them.

I have no doubt that there is a large segment of Bernie voters and other progressives/hyper-liberals that is going to vote for Hillary. They don't all have to stay home for Trump to win. My point is that Hillary's own personal negative qualities are a significant drag on her candidacy, which mutual dislike for Trump may not be able to overcome. This problem for Hillary is thoroughly reflected in the current state of the polls -- both in the current standings and in the polls' internals concerning Hillary.
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
July 26 2016 21:00 GMT
#89820
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/26/487490938/judge-drops-charges-against-anti-abortion-activists-behind-covert-recordings

FIRST AMENDMENT FUCK YEAHHH !
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