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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
September 16 2013 21:37 GMT
#8901
the cretan liberal. hue
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 21:38 GMT
#8902
On September 17 2013 04:30 sam!zdat wrote:
^nah it's cool. As long as people want to buy things everyone will have a job. Kwark said so. Say's law for jobs. It's Science!

Wouldn't say's law for jobs be as long as someone is willing to work he'll have a job? e.g. the supply of jobs would create the demand for jobs. The way you have it worded is the opposite, a demand pull rather than a supply push framework.

Not that anyone follows say's law anyways. Though, I think there's ample evidence of a lack of supply in a few key areas of the economy (housing & energy / energy efficiency).
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 16 2013 21:44 GMT
#8903
yes kwark thinks that a supply of workers will create its own demand for workers. So therefore there can never be a glut of labor, in the same way that say's law says there can never be a general glut of commodities

no reasonable person has believed says law since the publication of capital vol 1 but liberals can be a bit slow on the uptake
shikata ga nai
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-16 21:54:29
September 16 2013 21:45 GMT
#8904
Unreasoned and stupid dissent is useful too, actually. It forces people to ask the question "Why do I believe what I believe?" which is the fundamental question of rationality. People like Holocaust Denialists, who are patently ridiculous, can serve as a good motivator for a rational mind.

On September 16 2013 13:15 ziggurat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 11:44 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 16 2013 11:34 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 16 2013 11:28 DoubleReed wrote:
On September 16 2013 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Teacher's unions have generally been opposed to merit pay and the sacking of poorly performing teachers.

Administrators want to impose merit pay as an incentive to keep good teachers around.

Currently bad teachers are shuffled around from one school to the next because it's too hard to fire them. It's called "the dance of the lemons."

Every public school principal is painfully familiar with being forced to send children to a classroom where she knows the teacher there is not the best fit, but the teacher's placement has been forced on the school by higher-ups at the central district. In an effort to improve classroom instruction, bad teachers are often shuffled from one school to another, an administrative tactic known among principals as "The Dance of the Lemons."

link


Merit pay isn't really a good policy. Teachers didn't go into teaching for the moneys. The went into it for the teaching. Sorry, but it's one of these easy-but-dumb solutions.

From what I've seen about Merit Pay, the main effect it has is causing good teachers to move to other districts where they don't have to put up with that crap.

Merit pay isn't magic, but it's often effective. Lots of people in other industries take jobs for more reasons than the money, but they still respond to it. What's different about teaching that would make them leave (assuming they are, in fact)? Are they fleeing the merit pay or are they running to safe salary?


Well, I googled it, and I found things pointing both in favor and against merit pay, so I can't say whether it is effective or not. The general consensus I found is that it hasn't been effective at all so far, and proponents say it needs to be tweaked.

I don't quite know why it doesn't work. One thing is that teachers are more motivated by social pressures, not financial pressures. By shifting it to financial pressures it actually diminishes their care of the social pressure.

In general I think teachers should be treated with a lot more respect in our society than we give them. Parents and administrators are very quick to blame teachers for everything, including their own issues. That's the main problem, and merit pay really doesn't address that. It's a band-aid at best.

Hey Doublereed, I thought I would never agree with you about anything but here I think you're making sense. My wife is a teacher though so maybe I'm biased ...

I think the biggest problem with merit pay is that it's hard to measure a teacher's merit. The class does well, but that could just be because the teacher is in a district where all the parents make their kids spend two hours a night on homework. Classes aren't that big so there's really not that big a sample size. I would totally support some kind of merit pay for teachers but only if it was demonstrably on real merit, instead of who the principal happens to like.


I don't know why you thought we would never agree. You can pretty much assume that I'm an ACLU fanatic. They're one of the most consistent and strongest defenders of people's rights, and their website is good at explaining things with admirable clarity. Anytime you agree with the ACLU on issues you'll probably agree with me.

But if you notice, there's always people on the other side of the ACLU in their court cases (whether it's discrimination, privacy, due process, or free speech). Those are the guys that argue against people's rights. Those are the bad guys.

Anyway, yea. I think teachers are just disrespected in society. One thing you see in all societies that have good education (Norway, Japan, etc.), is that they show some damn respect to teachers. The standardized testing and those problems I generally think is minor in comparison. It's also one of the major reasons why I hate Chris Christie.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 21:52 GMT
#8905
On September 17 2013 06:44 sam!zdat wrote:
yes kwark thinks that a supply of workers will create its own demand for workers. So therefore there can never be a glut of labor, in the same way that say's law says there can never be a general glut of commodities

no reasonable person has believed says law since the publication of capital vol 1 but liberals can be a bit slow on the uptake

It's easy to be a critic. It's harder to provide working alternatives. Commies haven't been too impressive with their alternatives so far, have they?
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 16 2013 21:56 GMT
#8906
don't make me send you more angry pms jonny

you don't get to ignore a problem because you don't have a solution, no matter how well it works out for ostriches
shikata ga nai
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 21:58 GMT
#8907
On September 17 2013 06:56 sam!zdat wrote:
don't make me send you more angry pms jonny

you don't get to ignore a problem because you don't have a solution, no matter how well it works out for ostriches

I don't ignore problems. I try to find solutions that work rather than "solutions" that do more harm than good.
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
September 16 2013 21:59 GMT
#8908
On September 17 2013 06:52 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 06:44 sam!zdat wrote:
yes kwark thinks that a supply of workers will create its own demand for workers. So therefore there can never be a glut of labor, in the same way that say's law says there can never be a general glut of commodities

no reasonable person has believed says law since the publication of capital vol 1 but liberals can be a bit slow on the uptake

It's easy to be a critic. It's harder to provide working alternatives. Commies haven't been too impressive with their alternatives so far, have they?

Not really. Here, I'll have a go:
While jobs have historically followed the model of Say's law, modern technology which exponentially increases the per worker productivity has shifted the balance towards job stagnation.

BAM
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-16 22:12:42
September 16 2013 22:00 GMT
#8909
keep telling yourself that

edit @below: I apologize for sinking to your level
shikata ga nai
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 22:06 GMT
#8910
On September 17 2013 07:00 sam!zdat wrote:
keep telling yourself that

Good comeback. I'll one up you with "I am rubber you are glue..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-16 22:14:48
September 16 2013 22:08 GMT
#8911
commies have provided a part of the 'solution' though. without commies and le socialists, i don't think we'd come very far from the extremes of feudalism powered by steam. there's too much tendency to assume the status quo is the natural state of being, while at the same time resisting change that will remake that reality.

it just shows that politics can work to change the economic structure.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
September 16 2013 22:12 GMT
#8912
On September 17 2013 07:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 07:00 sam!zdat wrote:
keep telling yourself that

Good comeback. I'll one up you with "I am rubber you are glue..."

"...and Hitler wasn't so he killed the jews."
Is that how it goes?
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 22:14 GMT
#8913
On September 17 2013 06:59 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 06:52 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 17 2013 06:44 sam!zdat wrote:
yes kwark thinks that a supply of workers will create its own demand for workers. So therefore there can never be a glut of labor, in the same way that say's law says there can never be a general glut of commodities

no reasonable person has believed says law since the publication of capital vol 1 but liberals can be a bit slow on the uptake

It's easy to be a critic. It's harder to provide working alternatives. Commies haven't been too impressive with their alternatives so far, have they?

Not really. Here, I'll have a go:
While jobs have historically followed the model of Say's law, modern technology which exponentially increases the per worker productivity has shifted the balance towards job stagnation.

BAM

Sorry, I didn't mean an alternative to Say's law. We already don't use Say's law. I meant real alternatives to real economic activity, not alternative stylized theories.

Also, modern tech isn't increasing productivity faster than older tech did, as far as I can tell.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 22:27 GMT
#8914
A Victory in the Battle To Make Banks Boring

If you like your banks boring, well capitalized and also contributing to the real economy, you will be cheered by yesterday's quarterly review from the Bank for International Settlements, which contains a special feature on "How have banks adjusted to higher capital requirements?" That's a much-discussed question with at least two possible bad answers. The banks argue against higher capital requirements by saying it would force them to cut back on lending. I wonder whether higher (risk-weighted) capital requirements will lead banks to just monkey with the models for their risk-weighted assets.

But the BIS's answer is pretty solidly the good answer: Banks have increased capital ratios by retaining more earnings, without cutting back on lending or monkeying too much with the models ...

Link

This is an example of what I would consider a good, workable fix. Well capitalized banks may not be as fun for bankers, but it's good for pretty much everyone else.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
September 16 2013 22:34 GMT
#8915
On September 17 2013 07:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
A Victory in the Battle To Make Banks Boring

If you like your banks boring, well capitalized and also contributing to the real economy, you will be cheered by yesterday's quarterly review from the Bank for International Settlements, which contains a special feature on "How have banks adjusted to higher capital requirements?" That's a much-discussed question with at least two possible bad answers. The banks argue against higher capital requirements by saying it would force them to cut back on lending. I wonder whether higher (risk-weighted) capital requirements will lead banks to just monkey with the models for their risk-weighted assets.

But the BIS's answer is pretty solidly the good answer: Banks have increased capital ratios by retaining more earnings, without cutting back on lending or monkeying too much with the models ...

Link

This is an example of what I would consider a good, workable fix. Well capitalized banks may not be as fun for bankers, but it's good for pretty much everyone else.

Wonder how much of that is voluntary and how much of that is, "There are no emerging/growing markets to stick all our money in..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 22:38 GMT
#8916
On September 17 2013 07:34 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 07:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
A Victory in the Battle To Make Banks Boring

If you like your banks boring, well capitalized and also contributing to the real economy, you will be cheered by yesterday's quarterly review from the Bank for International Settlements, which contains a special feature on "How have banks adjusted to higher capital requirements?" That's a much-discussed question with at least two possible bad answers. The banks argue against higher capital requirements by saying it would force them to cut back on lending. I wonder whether higher (risk-weighted) capital requirements will lead banks to just monkey with the models for their risk-weighted assets.

But the BIS's answer is pretty solidly the good answer: Banks have increased capital ratios by retaining more earnings, without cutting back on lending or monkeying too much with the models ...

Link

This is an example of what I would consider a good, workable fix. Well capitalized banks may not be as fun for bankers, but it's good for pretty much everyone else.

Wonder how much of that is voluntary and how much of that is, "There are no emerging/growing markets to stick all our money in..."

A lot of it is demanded by new regulatory requirements. If there was just no where for them to put their money they could be leveraging via issuing dividends / stock buybacks.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
September 17 2013 00:19 GMT
#8917
On September 17 2013 07:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 07:34 aksfjh wrote:
On September 17 2013 07:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
A Victory in the Battle To Make Banks Boring

If you like your banks boring, well capitalized and also contributing to the real economy, you will be cheered by yesterday's quarterly review from the Bank for International Settlements, which contains a special feature on "How have banks adjusted to higher capital requirements?" That's a much-discussed question with at least two possible bad answers. The banks argue against higher capital requirements by saying it would force them to cut back on lending. I wonder whether higher (risk-weighted) capital requirements will lead banks to just monkey with the models for their risk-weighted assets.

But the BIS's answer is pretty solidly the good answer: Banks have increased capital ratios by retaining more earnings, without cutting back on lending or monkeying too much with the models ...

Link

This is an example of what I would consider a good, workable fix. Well capitalized banks may not be as fun for bankers, but it's good for pretty much everyone else.

Wonder how much of that is voluntary and how much of that is, "There are no emerging/growing markets to stick all our money in..."

A lot of it is demanded by new regulatory requirements. If there was just no where for them to put their money they could be leveraging via issuing dividends / stock buybacks.

I thought the requirements weren't on the books yet...
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 17 2013 01:59 GMT
#8918
On September 17 2013 09:19 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2013 07:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 17 2013 07:34 aksfjh wrote:
On September 17 2013 07:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
A Victory in the Battle To Make Banks Boring

If you like your banks boring, well capitalized and also contributing to the real economy, you will be cheered by yesterday's quarterly review from the Bank for International Settlements, which contains a special feature on "How have banks adjusted to higher capital requirements?" That's a much-discussed question with at least two possible bad answers. The banks argue against higher capital requirements by saying it would force them to cut back on lending. I wonder whether higher (risk-weighted) capital requirements will lead banks to just monkey with the models for their risk-weighted assets.

But the BIS's answer is pretty solidly the good answer: Banks have increased capital ratios by retaining more earnings, without cutting back on lending or monkeying too much with the models ...

Link

This is an example of what I would consider a good, workable fix. Well capitalized banks may not be as fun for bankers, but it's good for pretty much everyone else.

Wonder how much of that is voluntary and how much of that is, "There are no emerging/growing markets to stick all our money in..."

A lot of it is demanded by new regulatory requirements. If there was just no where for them to put their money they could be leveraging via issuing dividends / stock buybacks.

I thought the requirements weren't on the books yet...

I think Basel 2.5 went into effect in 2012 (source) and Basel 3 starts to roll out in 2014 (source).

I'm not sure about other regulatory changes.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 17 2013 02:05 GMT
#8919
qe is free money for pigs

http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbespr/2013/09/16/forbes-announces-its-32nd-annual-forbes-400-ranking-of-the-richest-americans/

these motherfuckers are nothing but feudal overlords. Expropriate the expropriators
shikata ga nai
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 17 2013 02:19 GMT
#8920
On September 17 2013 11:05 sam!zdat wrote:
qe is free money for pigs

http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbespr/2013/09/16/forbes-announces-its-32nd-annual-forbes-400-ranking-of-the-richest-americans/

these motherfuckers are nothing but feudal overlords. Expropriate the expropriators

OK, how and to whom?
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