|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On July 20 2016 07:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 07:20 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2016 07:14 Dan HH wrote:On July 20 2016 07:12 xDaunt wrote:On July 20 2016 07:00 Lord Tolkien wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/dear-steve-king-heres-what-asia-contributed-to-western-civilization/Dear Steve King: Here's What Asia Contributed to Western Civilization
Rep. Steve King’s ahistorical commentary cannot go uncorrected.
By Akhilesh Pillalamarri
July 20, 2016
The Diplomat mainly focuses on the Asia-Pacific, the world’s most dynamic and strategically and economically important region. Moreover, Asia, as well as the Middle East, Africa, and the Americas have featured some the most culturally, philosophically, and scientifically sophisticated civilizations that humanity has ever produced.
So, given this, the comments of U.S. Republican Representative Steve King of Iowa regarding the civilizations of the world are a cause of great trepidation and sorrow. Referring to non-white people, King asked: “I’d ask you to go back through history and figure out, where are these contributions that have been made by these other categories of people that you’re talking about — where did any other subgroup of people contribute more to civilization?”
He added his view that the greatest contributions to civilization came from “Western civilization itself…rooted in Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the Unites States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity settled the world. That’s all of Western civilization.”
What’s discouraging about King’s statements are that they resemble an increasingly common viewpoint in the discourse among the right and nationalists in the Western world and among the rank and file of the Republican Party in the United States. It is a discourse that does not match up with the facts about the historical development of civilizations.
Modern Western civilization, after all, is a relatively recent phenomenon that arose through the fusion of Roman and Christian ideas in Europe during the Medieval Era. Other civilizations preceded, influenced, and coexisted with the West.
At the same time it is important to clarify that the opposite perspective on Western civilization–that it contributed nothing of worth to the world except imperialism and exploitation, and was a mechanism to ensure the privilege of a few white males–embraced by many on the hard-left and among progressives is utterly wrong.
It would be as fallacious for one not to not be proud of the achievements of his or her own civilization as it would be to be to think that other civilizations contributed nothing to civilization. Certainly, for most of the past half-millennium, the West has been overwhelmingly dominant, in what has been termed the “Great Divergence.”
The Scientific Revolution, the Industrial Revolution, and the Enlightenment are among the unique contributions of the West–driven by unique institutional and historical factors–that enabled the scientific, medical, and political developments that have made world a better and more prosperous place than ever before. By the turn of the 20th century, virtually everyone in the non-West from the Japanese to the Ottomans was attempting to “catch up” with the West in the military, political, and economic spheres.
But we cannot and should not deny the achievements of other civilizations, both due to their own merits, and because of the contributions that enabled the modern, global civilization to come into being. And of course, in the sphere of music and the arts, it would be impossible to argue that non-Western civilizations were ever anything other than the equal of the West, as “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”
Civilization itself arose in the ancient Middle East. The desert biome of that region forced tribes to come together and cooperate in order to produce the irrigation systems necessary to produce enough food for everyone. This led to an increase in the complexity of social and political systems in order to induce cooperation.
Thus, in addition to the domestication of crops and animals, the first weights and measures, the first bureaucracies, organized government and religion, writing, and the wheel all arose in the ancient Middle East. In later times, that region, which became a part of Islamic civilization, gave the world algebra, distillation, and advanced astronomy and navigation, which Europeans used to sail all over the world.
India gave the world its numeric system, including the number zero, plastic surgery, steel production, and urban planning with sewage systems. And among China’s many contributions are paper, printing, gunpowder, the compass, and clocks. This is not to mention the various other crops domesticated, production techniques, and technical achievements of various other non-Western peoples.
Western civilization, and indeed the modern global civilization built largely by the West, would have been impossible without the contributions to civilization from the people of the rest of the world. This is not to disparage the achievements of the West; nor should we ignore the historical failings of other civilizations. But we ought to remember and celebrate the contributions to civilization from all the peoples of the world.
Today, as the era of Western domination draws to a close and as other nations have borrowed much of the best from the West, we should expect to see many more contributions to civilization from outside the West, and from among non-White or non-Christian people in the West itself.
This is the apologism of the politically correct at its finest. And attacking the margins of a larger point is an incredibly lame and ineffective way of shitting on the larger point itself. If anything, all it does prove the larger point. Disagreeing with white supremacism is politically correct now? Of course. That is the power of dismissive labeling. It's PC culture providing accurate accounts of history. How dare they prove those age old white supremacist talking points incorrect! The nerve. White people just want credit for all civilizations accomplishments across all of history. So mean that PC culture wont let them. Anyone with even a remedial understanding of history has to admit that western culture has contributed far more to civilization than any other. The author of that article even has to admit as such, which is why his overall argument is so stupid. He basically is forced into shitting on his own point and proving Rep. King right.
Jesus whiteboi now!
|
Xdaunt: I taught history before I went into law. I have well beyond a rudimentary understanding. You are just wrong by almost every metric.
And second: that specific line, "what other sub group(race) has contributed more to civilization t(han the white race?)" is straight out of a clan meeting. It is white supremacist talking points 101. You many not be familiar because you seem willingly ignorant on the subject, but it is a common argument used by white supremacist. And it is born of knowing every little about history as a whole.
|
On July 20 2016 07:32 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
They are allowed to do this or did the 19 originally go to Trump?
(Sorry if I missed something.)
|
On July 20 2016 07:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +“We’re still furious,” said Regina Thomson, a Colorado delegate who helped lead the “Free the Delegates” movement in support of the conscience vote. “Look how many hundreds of people took time off work, spent thousands of dollars to be here … their vote meant nothing from beginning to end. They’re angry and they should be.”
Source
I thought trump was already elected by the people back in the primaries. Does their vote not count now? The people vs the people? Who is more important?
On July 20 2016 07:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 07:20 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2016 07:14 Dan HH wrote:On July 20 2016 07:12 xDaunt wrote:On July 20 2016 07:00 Lord Tolkien wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/dear-steve-king-heres-what-asia-contributed-to-western-civilization/Dear Steve King: Here's What Asia Contributed to Western Civilization
Rep. Steve King’s ahistorical commentary cannot go uncorrected.
By Akhilesh Pillalamarri
July 20, 2016
The Diplomat mainly focuses on the Asia-Pacific, the world’s most dynamic and strategically and economically important region. Moreover, Asia, as well as the Middle East, Africa, and the Americas have featured some the most culturally, philosophically, and scientifically sophisticated civilizations that humanity has ever produced.
So, given this, the comments of U.S. Republican Representative Steve King of Iowa regarding the civilizations of the world are a cause of great trepidation and sorrow. Referring to non-white people, King asked: “I’d ask you to go back through history and figure out, where are these contributions that have been made by these other categories of people that you’re talking about — where did any other subgroup of people contribute more to civilization?”
He added his view that the greatest contributions to civilization came from “Western civilization itself…rooted in Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the Unites States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity settled the world. That’s all of Western civilization.”
What’s discouraging about King’s statements are that they resemble an increasingly common viewpoint in the discourse among the right and nationalists in the Western world and among the rank and file of the Republican Party in the United States. It is a discourse that does not match up with the facts about the historical development of civilizations.
Modern Western civilization, after all, is a relatively recent phenomenon that arose through the fusion of Roman and Christian ideas in Europe during the Medieval Era. Other civilizations preceded, influenced, and coexisted with the West.
At the same time it is important to clarify that the opposite perspective on Western civilization–that it contributed nothing of worth to the world except imperialism and exploitation, and was a mechanism to ensure the privilege of a few white males–embraced by many on the hard-left and among progressives is utterly wrong.
It would be as fallacious for one not to not be proud of the achievements of his or her own civilization as it would be to be to think that other civilizations contributed nothing to civilization. Certainly, for most of the past half-millennium, the West has been overwhelmingly dominant, in what has been termed the “Great Divergence.”
The Scientific Revolution, the Industrial Revolution, and the Enlightenment are among the unique contributions of the West–driven by unique institutional and historical factors–that enabled the scientific, medical, and political developments that have made world a better and more prosperous place than ever before. By the turn of the 20th century, virtually everyone in the non-West from the Japanese to the Ottomans was attempting to “catch up” with the West in the military, political, and economic spheres.
But we cannot and should not deny the achievements of other civilizations, both due to their own merits, and because of the contributions that enabled the modern, global civilization to come into being. And of course, in the sphere of music and the arts, it would be impossible to argue that non-Western civilizations were ever anything other than the equal of the West, as “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”
Civilization itself arose in the ancient Middle East. The desert biome of that region forced tribes to come together and cooperate in order to produce the irrigation systems necessary to produce enough food for everyone. This led to an increase in the complexity of social and political systems in order to induce cooperation.
Thus, in addition to the domestication of crops and animals, the first weights and measures, the first bureaucracies, organized government and religion, writing, and the wheel all arose in the ancient Middle East. In later times, that region, which became a part of Islamic civilization, gave the world algebra, distillation, and advanced astronomy and navigation, which Europeans used to sail all over the world.
India gave the world its numeric system, including the number zero, plastic surgery, steel production, and urban planning with sewage systems. And among China’s many contributions are paper, printing, gunpowder, the compass, and clocks. This is not to mention the various other crops domesticated, production techniques, and technical achievements of various other non-Western peoples.
Western civilization, and indeed the modern global civilization built largely by the West, would have been impossible without the contributions to civilization from the people of the rest of the world. This is not to disparage the achievements of the West; nor should we ignore the historical failings of other civilizations. But we ought to remember and celebrate the contributions to civilization from all the peoples of the world.
Today, as the era of Western domination draws to a close and as other nations have borrowed much of the best from the West, we should expect to see many more contributions to civilization from outside the West, and from among non-White or non-Christian people in the West itself.
This is the apologism of the politically correct at its finest. And attacking the margins of a larger point is an incredibly lame and ineffective way of shitting on the larger point itself. If anything, all it does prove the larger point. Disagreeing with white supremacism is politically correct now? Of course. That is the power of dismissive labeling. It's PC culture providing accurate accounts of history. How dare they prove those age old white supremacist talking points incorrect! The nerve. White people just want credit for all civilizations accomplishments across all of history. So mean that PC culture wont let them. Anyone with even a remedial understanding of history has to admit that western culture has contributed far more to civilization than any other. The author of that article even has to admit as such, which is why his overall argument is so stupid. He basically is forced into shitting on his own point and proving Rep. King right.
Yes, the west is very very important. It brought the holocaust, the atomic bomb, the crusades, imperialism, all kinds of torture devices and techniques, heavy war machinery, man made disasters and many many more great things.
Without the west the human population would not be what it is today: garbage.
|
On July 20 2016 07:28 PassiveAce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 07:25 oBlade wrote:On July 20 2016 07:14 Dan HH wrote:On July 20 2016 07:12 xDaunt wrote:On July 20 2016 07:00 Lord Tolkien wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/dear-steve-king-heres-what-asia-contributed-to-western-civilization/Dear Steve King: Here's What Asia Contributed to Western Civilization
Rep. Steve King’s ahistorical commentary cannot go uncorrected.
By Akhilesh Pillalamarri
July 20, 2016
The Diplomat mainly focuses on the Asia-Pacific, the world’s most dynamic and strategically and economically important region. Moreover, Asia, as well as the Middle East, Africa, and the Americas have featured some the most culturally, philosophically, and scientifically sophisticated civilizations that humanity has ever produced.
So, given this, the comments of U.S. Republican Representative Steve King of Iowa regarding the civilizations of the world are a cause of great trepidation and sorrow. Referring to non-white people, King asked: “I’d ask you to go back through history and figure out, where are these contributions that have been made by these other categories of people that you’re talking about — where did any other subgroup of people contribute more to civilization?”
He added his view that the greatest contributions to civilization came from “Western civilization itself…rooted in Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the Unites States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity settled the world. That’s all of Western civilization.”
What’s discouraging about King’s statements are that they resemble an increasingly common viewpoint in the discourse among the right and nationalists in the Western world and among the rank and file of the Republican Party in the United States. It is a discourse that does not match up with the facts about the historical development of civilizations.
Modern Western civilization, after all, is a relatively recent phenomenon that arose through the fusion of Roman and Christian ideas in Europe during the Medieval Era. Other civilizations preceded, influenced, and coexisted with the West.
At the same time it is important to clarify that the opposite perspective on Western civilization–that it contributed nothing of worth to the world except imperialism and exploitation, and was a mechanism to ensure the privilege of a few white males–embraced by many on the hard-left and among progressives is utterly wrong.
It would be as fallacious for one not to not be proud of the achievements of his or her own civilization as it would be to be to think that other civilizations contributed nothing to civilization. Certainly, for most of the past half-millennium, the West has been overwhelmingly dominant, in what has been termed the “Great Divergence.”
The Scientific Revolution, the Industrial Revolution, and the Enlightenment are among the unique contributions of the West–driven by unique institutional and historical factors–that enabled the scientific, medical, and political developments that have made world a better and more prosperous place than ever before. By the turn of the 20th century, virtually everyone in the non-West from the Japanese to the Ottomans was attempting to “catch up” with the West in the military, political, and economic spheres.
But we cannot and should not deny the achievements of other civilizations, both due to their own merits, and because of the contributions that enabled the modern, global civilization to come into being. And of course, in the sphere of music and the arts, it would be impossible to argue that non-Western civilizations were ever anything other than the equal of the West, as “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”
Civilization itself arose in the ancient Middle East. The desert biome of that region forced tribes to come together and cooperate in order to produce the irrigation systems necessary to produce enough food for everyone. This led to an increase in the complexity of social and political systems in order to induce cooperation.
Thus, in addition to the domestication of crops and animals, the first weights and measures, the first bureaucracies, organized government and religion, writing, and the wheel all arose in the ancient Middle East. In later times, that region, which became a part of Islamic civilization, gave the world algebra, distillation, and advanced astronomy and navigation, which Europeans used to sail all over the world.
India gave the world its numeric system, including the number zero, plastic surgery, steel production, and urban planning with sewage systems. And among China’s many contributions are paper, printing, gunpowder, the compass, and clocks. This is not to mention the various other crops domesticated, production techniques, and technical achievements of various other non-Western peoples.
Western civilization, and indeed the modern global civilization built largely by the West, would have been impossible without the contributions to civilization from the people of the rest of the world. This is not to disparage the achievements of the West; nor should we ignore the historical failings of other civilizations. But we ought to remember and celebrate the contributions to civilization from all the peoples of the world.
Today, as the era of Western domination draws to a close and as other nations have borrowed much of the best from the West, we should expect to see many more contributions to civilization from outside the West, and from among non-White or non-Christian people in the West itself.
This is the apologism of the politically correct at its finest. And attacking the margins of a larger point is an incredibly lame and ineffective way of shitting on the larger point itself. If anything, all it does prove the larger point. Disagreeing with white supremacism is politically correct now? + Show Spoiler +"Well, if you're really optimistic, you could say that this is the last time that old white people will command the Republican Party's, uh, attention, its platform, its public face. Of course, I thought that was going to happen in 2012." Charles Pierce, Esquire (the publication, not the title) - That's what the Rep. was responding to. On July 20 2016 07:18 PassiveAce wrote:On July 20 2016 07:08 oBlade wrote:On July 20 2016 06:59 PassiveAce wrote:
He actually got the manager of trump winery a speaking slot.
Presumably he will attest to the quality of trump wine? Not sure what else he could be there to talk about. And what's with the Governor of Arkansas being a speaker? Trump's not from Arkansas, so I don't get it - what a dumpster fire. If you don't see the difference between a elected state official and the general manager of a winery I dunno what to tell you rofl It's the Republican National Convention, not the Elected Officials Assembly - you don't seem to know what a political party is. There's already a convention dedicated for Republican public servants to meet. It's called the government. Ok but you still seem to think the general manager of a winery has something to add to the convention so you remain a clownstick
I assume he's going to speak to the nominee's character because I have enough imagination to think beyond the asinine suggestion that he's there as a scheduled speaker to solicit wine contracts. But I'll wait and see what he says.
|
On July 20 2016 07:14 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 07:12 xDaunt wrote:On July 20 2016 07:00 Lord Tolkien wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/dear-steve-king-heres-what-asia-contributed-to-western-civilization/Dear Steve King: Here's What Asia Contributed to Western Civilization
Rep. Steve King’s ahistorical commentary cannot go uncorrected.
By Akhilesh Pillalamarri
July 20, 2016
The Diplomat mainly focuses on the Asia-Pacific, the world’s most dynamic and strategically and economically important region. Moreover, Asia, as well as the Middle East, Africa, and the Americas have featured some the most culturally, philosophically, and scientifically sophisticated civilizations that humanity has ever produced.
So, given this, the comments of U.S. Republican Representative Steve King of Iowa regarding the civilizations of the world are a cause of great trepidation and sorrow. Referring to non-white people, King asked: “I’d ask you to go back through history and figure out, where are these contributions that have been made by these other categories of people that you’re talking about — where did any other subgroup of people contribute more to civilization?”
He added his view that the greatest contributions to civilization came from “Western civilization itself…rooted in Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the Unites States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity settled the world. That’s all of Western civilization.”
What’s discouraging about King’s statements are that they resemble an increasingly common viewpoint in the discourse among the right and nationalists in the Western world and among the rank and file of the Republican Party in the United States. It is a discourse that does not match up with the facts about the historical development of civilizations.
Modern Western civilization, after all, is a relatively recent phenomenon that arose through the fusion of Roman and Christian ideas in Europe during the Medieval Era. Other civilizations preceded, influenced, and coexisted with the West.
At the same time it is important to clarify that the opposite perspective on Western civilization–that it contributed nothing of worth to the world except imperialism and exploitation, and was a mechanism to ensure the privilege of a few white males–embraced by many on the hard-left and among progressives is utterly wrong.
It would be as fallacious for one not to not be proud of the achievements of his or her own civilization as it would be to be to think that other civilizations contributed nothing to civilization. Certainly, for most of the past half-millennium, the West has been overwhelmingly dominant, in what has been termed the “Great Divergence.”
The Scientific Revolution, the Industrial Revolution, and the Enlightenment are among the unique contributions of the West–driven by unique institutional and historical factors–that enabled the scientific, medical, and political developments that have made world a better and more prosperous place than ever before. By the turn of the 20th century, virtually everyone in the non-West from the Japanese to the Ottomans was attempting to “catch up” with the West in the military, political, and economic spheres.
But we cannot and should not deny the achievements of other civilizations, both due to their own merits, and because of the contributions that enabled the modern, global civilization to come into being. And of course, in the sphere of music and the arts, it would be impossible to argue that non-Western civilizations were ever anything other than the equal of the West, as “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”
Civilization itself arose in the ancient Middle East. The desert biome of that region forced tribes to come together and cooperate in order to produce the irrigation systems necessary to produce enough food for everyone. This led to an increase in the complexity of social and political systems in order to induce cooperation.
Thus, in addition to the domestication of crops and animals, the first weights and measures, the first bureaucracies, organized government and religion, writing, and the wheel all arose in the ancient Middle East. In later times, that region, which became a part of Islamic civilization, gave the world algebra, distillation, and advanced astronomy and navigation, which Europeans used to sail all over the world.
India gave the world its numeric system, including the number zero, plastic surgery, steel production, and urban planning with sewage systems. And among China’s many contributions are paper, printing, gunpowder, the compass, and clocks. This is not to mention the various other crops domesticated, production techniques, and technical achievements of various other non-Western peoples.
Western civilization, and indeed the modern global civilization built largely by the West, would have been impossible without the contributions to civilization from the people of the rest of the world. This is not to disparage the achievements of the West; nor should we ignore the historical failings of other civilizations. But we ought to remember and celebrate the contributions to civilization from all the peoples of the world.
Today, as the era of Western domination draws to a close and as other nations have borrowed much of the best from the West, we should expect to see many more contributions to civilization from outside the West, and from among non-White or non-Christian people in the West itself.
This is the apologism of the politically correct at its finest. And attacking the margins of a larger point is an incredibly lame and ineffective way of shitting on the larger point itself. If anything, all it does prove the larger point. Disagreeing with white supremacism is politically correct now?
I wouldn't say he's making a point of white supremacy.
What Tolkien shared is by all means to be accepted as historically true.
I think (correct me if i'm wrong) Daunt's beef is with the implications that of Western civilization's dominance being necessarily built upon the foundations of contributions from other civilizations.
It seems like there is a difference between 'every civilization has made contributions to the advancement of civilization in their own ways' and 'every civilization has equally made contributions to the advancement of civilization in their own ways'
It would be wrong to assume that just because one civilization 'X' was built upon the developments of another civilization 'Y', that those two civilizations made equal contributions to the overall well-being of human civilization.
The whole question though seems to get bogged doing in very subjective/meaningless material
'the net contributions of western civilizations to the overall well-being of humanity outweigh the net contributions of african civilizations, or asian civilizations, or etc etc etc civilizations'
Even if you were to argue this is true, which is arguably true on some levels and disingenuous on others, it isn't really saying much beside that.
I certainly wouldn't conclude someone is a racist for making that argument as the media has. It just seems like PC blown out of proportion again.
To extrapolate from that and argue 'white people are the best race because of this' would be a racist argument, but I didn't see that point made.
I certainly see why someone might be alarmed at this being brought up because outside of precise historical connotations it could very easily be construed as 'this is evidence that the white race is superior'. However I think it's the case that it doesn't necessitate that racist conclusion because alternative factors are at play. I think it's just as wrong to shut down the entire conversation by yelling 'racism! white supremacist!' as it would be to make the incorrect racist conclusion.
|
On July 20 2016 07:32 Plansix wrote:
Xdaunt: I taught history before I went into law. I have well beyond a rudimentary understanding. You are just wrong by almost every metric.
And second: that specific line, "what other sub group(race) has contributed more to civilization t(han the white race?)" is straight out of a clan meeting. It is white supremacist talking points 101. You many not be familiar because you seem willingly ignorant on the subject, but it is a common argument used by white supremacist. And it is born of knowing every little about history as a whole.
Welp, facts are facts. Given that western culture is largely a creation of the white race (though I'll note that not all whites are part of western culture), and given the relative supremacy of western culture in the historical record, we run into a rather uncomfortable predicament, don't we?
|
On July 20 2016 07:33 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 07:28 PassiveAce wrote:On July 20 2016 07:25 oBlade wrote:On July 20 2016 07:14 Dan HH wrote:On July 20 2016 07:12 xDaunt wrote:On July 20 2016 07:00 Lord Tolkien wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/dear-steve-king-heres-what-asia-contributed-to-western-civilization/Dear Steve King: Here's What Asia Contributed to Western Civilization
Rep. Steve King’s ahistorical commentary cannot go uncorrected.
By Akhilesh Pillalamarri
July 20, 2016
The Diplomat mainly focuses on the Asia-Pacific, the world’s most dynamic and strategically and economically important region. Moreover, Asia, as well as the Middle East, Africa, and the Americas have featured some the most culturally, philosophically, and scientifically sophisticated civilizations that humanity has ever produced.
So, given this, the comments of U.S. Republican Representative Steve King of Iowa regarding the civilizations of the world are a cause of great trepidation and sorrow. Referring to non-white people, King asked: “I’d ask you to go back through history and figure out, where are these contributions that have been made by these other categories of people that you’re talking about — where did any other subgroup of people contribute more to civilization?”
He added his view that the greatest contributions to civilization came from “Western civilization itself…rooted in Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the Unites States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity settled the world. That’s all of Western civilization.”
What’s discouraging about King’s statements are that they resemble an increasingly common viewpoint in the discourse among the right and nationalists in the Western world and among the rank and file of the Republican Party in the United States. It is a discourse that does not match up with the facts about the historical development of civilizations.
Modern Western civilization, after all, is a relatively recent phenomenon that arose through the fusion of Roman and Christian ideas in Europe during the Medieval Era. Other civilizations preceded, influenced, and coexisted with the West.
At the same time it is important to clarify that the opposite perspective on Western civilization–that it contributed nothing of worth to the world except imperialism and exploitation, and was a mechanism to ensure the privilege of a few white males–embraced by many on the hard-left and among progressives is utterly wrong.
It would be as fallacious for one not to not be proud of the achievements of his or her own civilization as it would be to be to think that other civilizations contributed nothing to civilization. Certainly, for most of the past half-millennium, the West has been overwhelmingly dominant, in what has been termed the “Great Divergence.”
The Scientific Revolution, the Industrial Revolution, and the Enlightenment are among the unique contributions of the West–driven by unique institutional and historical factors–that enabled the scientific, medical, and political developments that have made world a better and more prosperous place than ever before. By the turn of the 20th century, virtually everyone in the non-West from the Japanese to the Ottomans was attempting to “catch up” with the West in the military, political, and economic spheres.
But we cannot and should not deny the achievements of other civilizations, both due to their own merits, and because of the contributions that enabled the modern, global civilization to come into being. And of course, in the sphere of music and the arts, it would be impossible to argue that non-Western civilizations were ever anything other than the equal of the West, as “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”
Civilization itself arose in the ancient Middle East. The desert biome of that region forced tribes to come together and cooperate in order to produce the irrigation systems necessary to produce enough food for everyone. This led to an increase in the complexity of social and political systems in order to induce cooperation.
Thus, in addition to the domestication of crops and animals, the first weights and measures, the first bureaucracies, organized government and religion, writing, and the wheel all arose in the ancient Middle East. In later times, that region, which became a part of Islamic civilization, gave the world algebra, distillation, and advanced astronomy and navigation, which Europeans used to sail all over the world.
India gave the world its numeric system, including the number zero, plastic surgery, steel production, and urban planning with sewage systems. And among China’s many contributions are paper, printing, gunpowder, the compass, and clocks. This is not to mention the various other crops domesticated, production techniques, and technical achievements of various other non-Western peoples.
Western civilization, and indeed the modern global civilization built largely by the West, would have been impossible without the contributions to civilization from the people of the rest of the world. This is not to disparage the achievements of the West; nor should we ignore the historical failings of other civilizations. But we ought to remember and celebrate the contributions to civilization from all the peoples of the world.
Today, as the era of Western domination draws to a close and as other nations have borrowed much of the best from the West, we should expect to see many more contributions to civilization from outside the West, and from among non-White or non-Christian people in the West itself.
This is the apologism of the politically correct at its finest. And attacking the margins of a larger point is an incredibly lame and ineffective way of shitting on the larger point itself. If anything, all it does prove the larger point. Disagreeing with white supremacism is politically correct now? + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KtOBHznyDw "Well, if you're really optimistic, you could say that this is the last time that old white people will command the Republican Party's, uh, attention, its platform, its public face. Of course, I thought that was going to happen in 2012." Charles Pierce, Esquire (the publication, not the title) - That's what the Rep. was responding to. On July 20 2016 07:18 PassiveAce wrote:On July 20 2016 07:08 oBlade wrote:On July 20 2016 06:59 PassiveAce wrote:
He actually got the manager of trump winery a speaking slot.
Presumably he will attest to the quality of trump wine? Not sure what else he could be there to talk about. And what's with the Governor of Arkansas being a speaker? Trump's not from Arkansas, so I don't get it - what a dumpster fire. If you don't see the difference between a elected state official and the general manager of a winery I dunno what to tell you rofl It's the Republican National Convention, not the Elected Officials Assembly - you don't seem to know what a political party is. There's already a convention dedicated for Republican public servants to meet. It's called the government. Ok but you still seem to think the general manager of a winery has something to add to the convention so you remain a clownstick I assume he's going to speak to the nominee's character because I have enough imagination to think beyond the asinine suggestion that he's there as a scheduled speaker to solicit wine contracts. But I'll wait and see what he says.
So best case scenario is that the dude is going to effusively praise the man he struck a branding deal with.
Equally ridiculous use of stage time imo
|
On July 20 2016 07:34 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 07:14 Dan HH wrote:On July 20 2016 07:12 xDaunt wrote:On July 20 2016 07:00 Lord Tolkien wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/dear-steve-king-heres-what-asia-contributed-to-western-civilization/Dear Steve King: Here's What Asia Contributed to Western Civilization
Rep. Steve King’s ahistorical commentary cannot go uncorrected.
By Akhilesh Pillalamarri
July 20, 2016
The Diplomat mainly focuses on the Asia-Pacific, the world’s most dynamic and strategically and economically important region. Moreover, Asia, as well as the Middle East, Africa, and the Americas have featured some the most culturally, philosophically, and scientifically sophisticated civilizations that humanity has ever produced.
So, given this, the comments of U.S. Republican Representative Steve King of Iowa regarding the civilizations of the world are a cause of great trepidation and sorrow. Referring to non-white people, King asked: “I’d ask you to go back through history and figure out, where are these contributions that have been made by these other categories of people that you’re talking about — where did any other subgroup of people contribute more to civilization?”
He added his view that the greatest contributions to civilization came from “Western civilization itself…rooted in Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the Unites States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity settled the world. That’s all of Western civilization.”
What’s discouraging about King’s statements are that they resemble an increasingly common viewpoint in the discourse among the right and nationalists in the Western world and among the rank and file of the Republican Party in the United States. It is a discourse that does not match up with the facts about the historical development of civilizations.
Modern Western civilization, after all, is a relatively recent phenomenon that arose through the fusion of Roman and Christian ideas in Europe during the Medieval Era. Other civilizations preceded, influenced, and coexisted with the West.
At the same time it is important to clarify that the opposite perspective on Western civilization–that it contributed nothing of worth to the world except imperialism and exploitation, and was a mechanism to ensure the privilege of a few white males–embraced by many on the hard-left and among progressives is utterly wrong.
It would be as fallacious for one not to not be proud of the achievements of his or her own civilization as it would be to be to think that other civilizations contributed nothing to civilization. Certainly, for most of the past half-millennium, the West has been overwhelmingly dominant, in what has been termed the “Great Divergence.”
The Scientific Revolution, the Industrial Revolution, and the Enlightenment are among the unique contributions of the West–driven by unique institutional and historical factors–that enabled the scientific, medical, and political developments that have made world a better and more prosperous place than ever before. By the turn of the 20th century, virtually everyone in the non-West from the Japanese to the Ottomans was attempting to “catch up” with the West in the military, political, and economic spheres.
But we cannot and should not deny the achievements of other civilizations, both due to their own merits, and because of the contributions that enabled the modern, global civilization to come into being. And of course, in the sphere of music and the arts, it would be impossible to argue that non-Western civilizations were ever anything other than the equal of the West, as “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”
Civilization itself arose in the ancient Middle East. The desert biome of that region forced tribes to come together and cooperate in order to produce the irrigation systems necessary to produce enough food for everyone. This led to an increase in the complexity of social and political systems in order to induce cooperation.
Thus, in addition to the domestication of crops and animals, the first weights and measures, the first bureaucracies, organized government and religion, writing, and the wheel all arose in the ancient Middle East. In later times, that region, which became a part of Islamic civilization, gave the world algebra, distillation, and advanced astronomy and navigation, which Europeans used to sail all over the world.
India gave the world its numeric system, including the number zero, plastic surgery, steel production, and urban planning with sewage systems. And among China’s many contributions are paper, printing, gunpowder, the compass, and clocks. This is not to mention the various other crops domesticated, production techniques, and technical achievements of various other non-Western peoples.
Western civilization, and indeed the modern global civilization built largely by the West, would have been impossible without the contributions to civilization from the people of the rest of the world. This is not to disparage the achievements of the West; nor should we ignore the historical failings of other civilizations. But we ought to remember and celebrate the contributions to civilization from all the peoples of the world.
Today, as the era of Western domination draws to a close and as other nations have borrowed much of the best from the West, we should expect to see many more contributions to civilization from outside the West, and from among non-White or non-Christian people in the West itself.
This is the apologism of the politically correct at its finest. And attacking the margins of a larger point is an incredibly lame and ineffective way of shitting on the larger point itself. If anything, all it does prove the larger point. Disagreeing with white supremacism is politically correct now? I wouldn't say he's making a point of white supremacy. What Tolkien shared is by all means to be accepted as historically true. I think (correct me if i'm wrong) Daunt's beef is with the implications that of Western civilization's dominance being necessarily built upon the foundations of contributions from other civilizations. It seems like there is a difference between 'every civilization has made contributions to the advancement of civilization in their own ways' and 'every civilization has equally made contributions to the advancement of civilization in their own ways' It would be wrong to assume that just because one civilization 'X' was built upon the developments of another civilization 'Y', that those two civilizations made equal contributions to the overall well-being of human civilization. The whole question though seems to get bogged doing in very subjective/meaningless material 'the net contributions of western civilizations to the overall well-being of humanity outweigh the net contributions of african civilizations, or asian civilizations, or etc etc etc civilizations'Even if you were to argue this is true, which is arguably true on some levels and disingenuous on others, it isn't really saying much beside that. I certainly wouldn't conclude someone is a racist for making that argument as the media has. It just seems like PC blown out of proportion again. To extrapolate from that and argue 'white people are the best race because of this' would be a racist argument, but I didn't see that point made. I certainly see why someone might be alarmed at this being brought up because outside of precise historical connotations it could very easily be construed as 'this is evidence that the white race is superior'. However I think it's the case that it doesn't necessitate that racist conclusion because alternative factors are at play.
My beef is that the article shared by LordTolkien is much ado about nothing. There's nothing historically inaccurate about it. It's just a really stupid, time-wasting argument to make a PC point.
|
On July 20 2016 05:26 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 05:21 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2016 05:18 Dan HH wrote:On July 20 2016 04:39 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
"Trump has lost my support. I have stuck with him through allegations of Racism, Sexism, Anti-Semitism, xenophobia, bankruptcies, and the bringer of WWIII. But after Melania's plagiarism, I'm getting off the Trump train." What's your point? You made it perfectly clear a hundred times before that there's nothing Trump can do to lose your support, that doesn't mean all criticism of him/his campaign is invalid. Its like they don't understand that their vote isn't the one that is going to decide the election. No one in this thread matters to the candidates right now. Its the undecided voters, who will file this little blunder away with the 2000 other blunders Trump has committed. It's still troublesome that basic democratic mechanisms don't work anymore and a candidate can act as disgusting as the worst parts of the country while still drawing considerable support. Sure there's always a solid core of people in every nation that are bringing out the worst it has to offer but the missing backlash against Trump's campaign is scary.
I have seen the rise of populism and hate/fear propaganda in sweden and france in recent years, but there is something even more frightening in trumps politics. It is as if he purposly makes a point of being incoherent. In my oppinion Trump stands for a political logic that is striving to become pure spectacle without any connection to reality or reason. It is as if todays democracy is turning back time to the medieval absolute monarchy where the right of the sovereign was rooted in allegorical and theatrical display of power rather than a battle over political ideas or ideologies. (Of course, this is very schematic, but Trump is heading in that direction I think.)
|
On July 20 2016 07:38 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 07:32 Plansix wrote:
Xdaunt: I taught history before I went into law. I have well beyond a rudimentary understanding. You are just wrong by almost every metric.
And second: that specific line, "what other sub group(race) has contributed more to civilization t(han the white race?)" is straight out of a clan meeting. It is white supremacist talking points 101. You many not be familiar because you seem willingly ignorant on the subject, but it is a common argument used by white supremacist. And it is born of knowing every little about history as a whole. Welp, facts are facts. Given that western culture is largely a creation of the white race (though I'll note that not all whites are part of western culture), and given the relative supremacy of western culture in the historical record, we run into a rather uncomfortable predicament, don't we?
It's like arguing "the best NBA players are all black" is a racially charged, offensive thing to say.
It's just a fact.
Granted the net historical contributions of various civilizations across thousands of years is a much more complicated issue.
|
On July 20 2016 07:42 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 07:38 xDaunt wrote:On July 20 2016 07:32 Plansix wrote:
Xdaunt: I taught history before I went into law. I have well beyond a rudimentary understanding. You are just wrong by almost every metric.
And second: that specific line, "what other sub group(race) has contributed more to civilization t(han the white race?)" is straight out of a clan meeting. It is white supremacist talking points 101. You many not be familiar because you seem willingly ignorant on the subject, but it is a common argument used by white supremacist. And it is born of knowing every little about history as a whole. Welp, facts are facts. Given that western culture is largely a creation of the white race (though I'll note that not all whites are part of western culture), and given the relative supremacy of western culture in the historical record, we run into a rather uncomfortable predicament, don't we? It's like arguing "the best NBA players are all black" is a racially charged, offensive thing to say. It's just a fact. Granted the net historical contributions of various civilizations across thousands of years is a much more complicated issue.
Bingo.
|
On July 20 2016 07:38 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 07:32 Plansix wrote:
Xdaunt: I taught history before I went into law. I have well beyond a rudimentary understanding. You are just wrong by almost every metric.
And second: that specific line, "what other sub group(race) has contributed more to civilization t(han the white race?)" is straight out of a clan meeting. It is white supremacist talking points 101. You many not be familiar because you seem willingly ignorant on the subject, but it is a common argument used by white supremacist. And it is born of knowing every little about history as a whole. Welp, facts are facts. Given that western culture is largely a creation of the white race (though I'll note that not all whites are part of western culture), and given the relative supremacy of western culture in the historical record, we run into a rather uncomfortable predicament, don't we?
Civilization is larger than just western culture. And the majority of the accomplishments of western cultures are on the foundation of other races discoverys.
|
Breaking: Speech written for Mrs. Trump was changed after given to her.
|
On July 20 2016 07:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 07:38 xDaunt wrote:On July 20 2016 07:32 Plansix wrote:
Xdaunt: I taught history before I went into law. I have well beyond a rudimentary understanding. You are just wrong by almost every metric.
And second: that specific line, "what other sub group(race) has contributed more to civilization t(han the white race?)" is straight out of a clan meeting. It is white supremacist talking points 101. You many not be familiar because you seem willingly ignorant on the subject, but it is a common argument used by white supremacist. And it is born of knowing every little about history as a whole. Welp, facts are facts. Given that western culture is largely a creation of the white race (though I'll note that not all whites are part of western culture), and given the relative supremacy of western culture in the historical record, we run into a rather uncomfortable predicament, don't we? Civilization is larger than just western culture. And the majority of the accomplishments of western cultures are on the foundation of other races discoverys.
Yeah, and we can go all the way back to some form of monkey by that logic, which is why it's absurd to place undue emphasis on foundational issues. Sheer cultural dominance is a far better metric.
|
|
|
On July 20 2016 07:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Breaking: Speech written for Mrs. Trump was changed after given to her.
As in my keyboard is breaking?
|
On July 20 2016 07:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 07:43 Plansix wrote:On July 20 2016 07:38 xDaunt wrote:On July 20 2016 07:32 Plansix wrote:
Xdaunt: I taught history before I went into law. I have well beyond a rudimentary understanding. You are just wrong by almost every metric.
And second: that specific line, "what other sub group(race) has contributed more to civilization t(han the white race?)" is straight out of a clan meeting. It is white supremacist talking points 101. You many not be familiar because you seem willingly ignorant on the subject, but it is a common argument used by white supremacist. And it is born of knowing every little about history as a whole. Welp, facts are facts. Given that western culture is largely a creation of the white race (though I'll note that not all whites are part of western culture), and given the relative supremacy of western culture in the historical record, we run into a rather uncomfortable predicament, don't we? Civilization is larger than just western culture. And the majority of the accomplishments of western cultures are on the foundation of other races discoverys. Yeah, and we go all the way back to some form of monkey by that logic, which is why it's absurd to place undue emphasis on foundational issues. Sheer cultural dominance is a far better metric.
Most historians don't really care about that metric. But it's works nice for your argument, so I can see how you would like it. And if that was the metric, China wins hands down.
|
Watching GOP convention on Twitch.
Michigan just "passed" their delegate votes. They had almost 30 bound to Trump. What does this mean (edit: and how can they get away with it)?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
