In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On June 04 2016 03:15 Godwrath wrote: It's interesting to read about a 11 year old pamphlet as it should be relevant today, but anyways, did you read the pamphlet ?
- It basically tells people how to stay safe in case they decide to be an illegal. Instead of, i don't know, letting them in the complete mercy of coyotes or giving them some information and tips to not fucking die, or get arrested because they were cheated by someone to carry drugs into USA, and basic the human rights they may have in the USA. Crazy talk i know.
- It also tells inmigrants just work and go home, don't go parties, don't get into fights, don't carry weapons, while they work out their situation to get the legal status. Low profile, therefore being as fucking quiet and less troublemakers as a rock.
From there, to "Trump is right mexico is literally sending..." is a huge road.
Why should we be against inmigrants actually knowing what they are getting into ?
And it was created after 300 people died during the crossing due to misinformation and bad planning. It also tells them to never resist arrest or lie to boarder officials. If Mexico is sending it worst, it is going out of its way to tell them to be good and not cause problems for the US.
On June 04 2016 03:15 Godwrath wrote: It's interesting to read about a 11 year old pamphlet as it should be relevant today, but anyways, did you read the pamphlet ?
- It basically tells people how to stay safe in case they decide to be an illegal. Instead of, i don't know, letting them in the complete mercy of coyotes or giving them some information and tips to not fucking die, or get arrested because they were cheated by someone to carry drugs into USA, and basic the human rights they may have in the USA. Crazy talk i know.
- It also tells inmigrants just work and go home, don't go parties, don't get into fights, don't carry weapons, while they work out their situation to get the legal status. Low profile, therefore being as fucking quiet and less troublemakers as a rock.
From there, to "Trump is right mexico is literally sending..." is a huge road.
Why should we be against inmigrants actually knowing what they are getting into ?
If anything that 11 year old pamphlet is saying to be the exact opposite of that so if its considered evidence its evidence that at worst Mexico is trying to send people and have them obey the law (outside of the whole coming here illegally part). The logical leap that is required to go from there to Trumps position is one that I must admit I am not athletic enough to even dare try.
On June 04 2016 03:15 Godwrath wrote: It's interesting to read about a 11 year old pamphlet as it should be relevant today, but anyways, did you read the pamphlet ?
- It basically tells people how to stay safe in case they decide to be an illegal. Instead of, i don't know, letting them in the complete mercy of coyotes or giving them some information and tips to not fucking die, or get arrested because they were cheated by someone to carry drugs into USA, and basic the human rights they may have in the USA. Crazy talk i know.
- It also tells inmigrants just work and go home, don't go parties, don't get into fights, don't carry weapons, while they work out their situation to get the legal status. Low profile, therefore being as fucking quiet and less troublemakers as a rock.
From there, to "Trump is right mexico is literally sending..." is a huge road.
Why should we be against inmigrants actually knowing what they are getting into ?
If anything that 11 year old pamphlet is saying to be the exact opposite of that so if its considered evidence its evidence that at worst Mexico is trying to send people and have them obey the law (outside of the whole coming here illegally part). The logical leap that is required to go from there to Trumps position is one that I must admit I am not athletic enough to even dare try.
You have to know how the evidence was discovered. Google search, read title of article, pick the NYT because they bad mouthed Trump, post. Little reading was involved.
As if the pamphlet would say anything else like, "Upon arrival to the USA, please raise hell. Burn the hated Gringo and take back our land."
The pamphlet said nice words! I'm convinced! - Liberal
Again, it's assumed that most are pretty decent people. But there's a wrong way to do things and a right way to do things. And this conversation started off, "well it's a stupid law". It's really not a stupid law. Call for actual immigration reform. Not to subvert the country you're living in and benefiting from. Need your fruit picked? Start with your own homeless & unemployed. Make your own programs that work for your own people. Try to actually help the people in your own country first. It would create legal jobs that you could eventually tax and not support a heinous slave underclass. That way you don't have women on the view saying, "well.. they do the jobs we don't wanna do!"
People who support illegal immigration are either in favor of indentured servitude or liars. There really isn't any in between. There is zero good excuse for letting people come in here without documentation.
On June 04 2016 03:27 SK.Testie wrote: As if the pamphlet would say anything else like, "Upon arrival to the USA, please raise hell. Burn the hated Gringo and take back our land."
The pamphlet said nice words! I'm convinced! - Liberal
Again, it's assumed that most are pretty decent people. But there's a wrong way to do things and a right way to do things. And this conversation started off, "well it's a stupid law". It's really not a stupid law. Call for actual immigration reform. Not to subvert the country you're living in and benefiting from.
Yes because if there is one thing I have learned from the GoP in the past 6 years its that if there is a problem I can completely rely on them to sit down act like adults and work to fix the problem. That is why the tax code has been fixed, our countries infrastructure which has been decaying slowly for the past 30 years is being rebuilt, job programs are being passed, the minimum wage is finally be raised after one of the longest periods without being raised and not to mention the 100 other issues that i am sure congress is sure to get done in an effective and timely manner.
When you paint the opposition as folks who "support illegal immigration," its quite easy to dictate the substance of their beliefs. However, the only people who "support illegal immigration" are border state business owners who likely vote Republican without question.
Those in favor of soft immigration policies while work is done on actual, substantive reform are rather different.
That's why the new movement is here Adreme. People are sick of the GOP and the Democrats selling out the American people. It's an actual reality. They've been selling it all out to corporate interests. Now, there's a whole different debate entirely of whether corporate interests are eventually in the best interests of the world / America in the long run. As that way foreign corporations cannot expand at greater rates and become more dominant than your American ones and that way America keeps its global presence and continues winning the culture war blah blah etc etc.
But again, it's a different discussion entirely.
The point was that the gop and dems have sold out their own citizens. It's a massive reason why Trump is resonating. If you voted for any other Republican candidate this election and he were elected (0% chance of that) very little would have been done. If you elect a democratic candidate... well there's another 8-15 trillion+ in debt for a certainty and corporations & wall street are not going to be reigned in. "Hillary has the best plan!" Obama had some plans too! (And I'm not even an Obama hater). Though I once was totally on board with what he was selliing. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/rulings/promise-broken/
So that's the point of Trump. Both Republicans and Democrats are selling it out to border state business owners as you evidenced.
So until then, build the wall (hey! jobs!) and make actual calls for sensible changes to your own immigration policies if that is what your people want.
On June 04 2016 03:30 xDaunt wrote: People who support illegal immigration are either in favor of indentured servitude or liars. There really isn't any in between. There is zero good excuse for letting people come in here without documentation.
Remember when a Nazi looked at a painting by picasso and asked him, "did you do this?", and picasso responded, "no, YOU did this!" (and by, "do you remember" I mean did you watch the seventh episode of Season 2 of Fargo? It's really good!) It is the people who are seemingly so staunch about "keeping dem immigrants out" that in fact perpetuated this system of indentured servitude, as you so correctly called it. Its not about whether or not we would like illegal immigration to continue. The issue started when NukeD asked "BUT HOW COULD ANYONE SUPPORT SOMETHING THAT IS *ILLEGAL*???" as if laws were something that ought not to be subverted every now and then. I do not support the fact that these people are used and spit out by a moronic keynesianist agricultural project in california that by rights shouldnt exist. I do, however, understand and sympathise with the people who cross these borders. There's a lot of "inbetween" between almost everything, by the way.
Offtopic, but did you ever play World in Conflict for a italian team by any chance?
Edit:
So that's the point of Trump. Both Republicans and Democrats are selling it out to border state business owners as you evidenced.
Now there's something we can agree on! but the mythical Wall wouldn't help very much with anything. What you need is to nuke the entire site from orbit and start again.
On June 04 2016 03:34 farvacola wrote: When you paint the opposition as folks who "support illegal immigration," its quite easy to dictate the substance of their beliefs. However, the only people who "support illegal immigration" are border state business owners who likely vote Republican without question.
Those in favor of soft immigration policies while work is done on actual, substantive reform are rather different.
Sorry, but the Democrat Party in virtually its entirety supports illegal immigration by hampering enforcement and demonizing proponents of enforcement. And yes, business owners who support illegal immigration need to be strung up as well.
EDIT: Hell, Democrats aren't even honest enough to call illegal immigration what it is: ILLEGAL. They contort themselves so badly to pander to Hispanics that they refer to illegal aliens as undocumented workers. It's sheer madness.
On June 04 2016 03:34 farvacola wrote: When you paint the opposition as folks who "support illegal immigration," its quite easy to dictate the substance of their beliefs. However, the only people who "support illegal immigration" are border state business owners who likely vote Republican without question.
Those in favor of soft immigration policies while work is done on actual, substantive reform are rather different.
Sorry, but the Democrat Party in virtually its entirety supports illegal immigration by hampering enforcement and demonizing proponents of enforcement. And yes, business owners who support illegal immigration need to be strung up as well.
Yet more people have been deported under Obama than ever were under Bush. The GOP is just keeping the issue alive because they know they have to compromise and its easier to say “secure the border first” over and over than address the problem. Because they know they can’t deport all 11 million illegal immigrants.
Edit: LOL Pandering to Hispanics. I forget that pandering to the GOP basically involves listening to and trying to enact teh changes they want.
I understand WHY people like Trump the problem is that they dont look closely enough and do not realize most of what he says is either just laughably wrong, insane or just makes no sense whatsoever and he is clearly making it up as he goes along. That combined with his thin skinned overly defensive nature makes him one of the most dangerous options to be president from either major party in decades.
On June 04 2016 03:34 farvacola wrote: When you paint the opposition as folks who "support illegal immigration," its quite easy to dictate the substance of their beliefs. However, the only people who "support illegal immigration" are border state business owners who likely vote Republican without question.
Those in favor of soft immigration policies while work is done on actual, substantive reform are rather different.
Sorry, but the Democrat Party in virtually its entirety supports illegal immigration by hampering enforcement and demonizing proponents of enforcement. And yes, business owners who support illegal immigration need to be strung up as well.
Yet more people have been deported under Obama than ever were under Bush. The GOP is just keeping the issue alive because they know they have to compromise and its easier to say “secure the border first” over and over than address the problem. Because they know they can’t deport all 11 million illegal immigrants.
Please, tell me more about how serious the Democrats and Obama are about stopping illegal immigration when they won't even call it by its name: ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. What a fucking joke. Democrats have zero credibility on the issue (not that RINO's are much better).
On June 04 2016 03:27 SK.Testie wrote: As if the pamphlet would say anything else like, "Upon arrival to the USA, please raise hell. Burn the hated Gringo and take back our land."
The pamphlet said nice words! I'm convinced! - Liberal
Again, it's assumed that most are pretty decent people. But there's a wrong way to do things and a right way to do things. And this conversation started off, "well it's a stupid law". It's really not a stupid law. Call for actual immigration reform. Not to subvert the country you're living in and benefiting from.
The vast majority of the violence is coming from the left right now. Every violent threat and action is coming from the far left.
Systemic violence is bodily violence. We're all being pretty violent right now.
On June 03 2016 17:35 NukeD wrote: One thing I don't get is why people attack Trump on his position on illegal immigration. I mean its ILLEGAL, why on earth would you defend it. I think most of us here in europe don't understand the outrage on the idea of deporting ILLEGAL immigrants. What am I missing?
I defend very many things that are illegal. Sometimes laws suck.
But there are legal ways of getting into a country.
Needed tens of thousands of dollars in a three year process to get a green card when I came to the US and I'm middle class, have a degree, speak English as a first language etc. It's a bitch.
It's supposed to be a bitch. It's not supposed to be for any dude who just wants to walk the country. Countries aren't homeless shelters for the world's poor. Oh no! Canada's economy has crashed! I'd better pack up and go to Japan that'll really work out well for the Japanese.
Please reconcile that with an economy that needs low skill low pay fruit pickets every harvest.
The US either needs to stop needing immigrants or to have a functioning immigration system. This "have a completely dysfunctional immigration system while also needing a shitton of immigrants" system is a recipe for illegal immigration.
But even then it is hugely inefficient.
This is just an example. The people you were argueing with were calling for a reform because they think the system doesn't work.
Regarding the pamphlet, you were the one who brought it up as relevant, you are the one who has to link the dots for us to tell us why that pamphlets means that mexico is actually sending people, and not just giving information which isn't "america = the promised land". I am really wondering how you find that a pamphlet that basically lists a bunch of problems, dangers and a shitty lifestyle has been done to encourage rather than to inform and discourage.
I am really baffled at this point, you didn't read the pamphlet, and it shows.
I also don't know how accessible it was to the common mexican citizen either, in 2005 only a 17% of the mexican population had access to internet, and i didn't find any source on distribution.
On June 04 2016 03:39 SK.Testie wrote: That's why the new movement is here Adreme. People are sick of the GOP and the Democrats selling out the American people. It's an actual reality. They've been selling it all out to corporate interests. Now, there's a whole different debate entirely of whether corporate interests are eventually in the best interests of the world / America in the long run. As that way foreign corporations cannot expand at greater rates and become more dominant than your American ones and that way America keeps its global presence and continues winning the culture war blah blah etc etc.
But again, it's a different discussion entirely.
The point was that the gop and dems have sold out their own citizens. It's a massive reason why Trump is resonating. If you voted for any other Republican candidate this election and he were elected (0% chance of that) very little would have been done. If you elect a democratic candidate... well there's another 8-15 trillion+ in debt for a certainty and corporations & wall street are not going to be reigned in. "Hillary has the best plan!" Obama had some plans too! (And I'm not even an Obama hater). Though I once was totally on board with what he was selliing. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/rulings/promise-broken/
So that's the point of Trump. Both Republicans and Democrats are selling it out to border state business owners as you evidenced.
So until then, build the wall (hey! jobs!) and make actual calls for sensible changes to your own immigration policies if that is what your people want.
your assertion that a democrat candidate would lead to a massive debt increase (let alone that it would be any different with a republican) is unfounded, and not supported by the evidence. I do get the point of trump, i'ts just that he can't deliver any of what he promises (well, almost none of it), especially sinc ehe obviously has such a poor grasp of the issues.
On June 04 2016 03:34 farvacola wrote: When you paint the opposition as folks who "support illegal immigration," its quite easy to dictate the substance of their beliefs. However, the only people who "support illegal immigration" are border state business owners who likely vote Republican without question.
Those in favor of soft immigration policies while work is done on actual, substantive reform are rather different.
Sorry, but the Democrat Party in virtually its entirety supports illegal immigration by hampering enforcement and demonizing proponents of enforcement. And yes, business owners who support illegal immigration need to be strung up as well.
Yet more people have been deported under Obama than ever were under Bush. The GOP is just keeping the issue alive because they know they have to compromise and its easier to say “secure the border first” over and over than address the problem. Because they know they can’t deport all 11 million illegal immigrants.
Please, tell me more about how serious the Democrats and Obama are about stopping illegal immigration when they won't even call it by its name: ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. What a fucking joke. Democrats have zero credibility on the issue (not that RINO's are much better).
So you are ignoring what has actually been done on the issue and instead are saying that it does not count because they wont use the right verbiage?
On June 04 2016 03:34 farvacola wrote: When you paint the opposition as folks who "support illegal immigration," its quite easy to dictate the substance of their beliefs. However, the only people who "support illegal immigration" are border state business owners who likely vote Republican without question.
Those in favor of soft immigration policies while work is done on actual, substantive reform are rather different.
Sorry, but the Democrat Party in virtually its entirety supports illegal immigration by hampering enforcement and demonizing proponents of enforcement. And yes, business owners who support illegal immigration need to be strung up as well.
Yet more people have been deported under Obama than ever were under Bush. The GOP is just keeping the issue alive because they know they have to compromise and its easier to say “secure the border first” over and over than address the problem. Because they know they can’t deport all 11 million illegal immigrants.
Please, tell me more about how serious the Democrats and Obama are about stopping illegal immigration when they won't even call it by its name: ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. What a fucking joke. Democrats have zero credibility on the issue (not that RINO's are much better).
Maybe the point of friction is that ILLEGAL people are actually still human beings no matter what kind of label you assign to them? Don't you think it's a little ridiculous to go full Judge Dredd on someone just because you declare them to be non persons?
Let's just clear the air: there are fucking twat politicians on both sides of the aisle who pander to Hispanics on the illegal immigration issue. It just so happens that the vast majority of them are democrats. When we see a democrat politician propose building a wall and receive mass support from his base, then we can reconsider these facts.
EPT
