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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
June 02 2016 08:55 GMT
#78481
It's really weird. 15 years ago I believed that the right to property is an essential moral right and should be fiercely protected. Now, not so much. I feel that we have been heavily conditioned to see the world through a given set of lenses, where things that are just convenient implementations of the current societal mechanisms are glorified to moral standpoints and it really took me an extremely long time to think all of this through. Anyway, nice discussion chaps, much better than the "hillary emails" angle, which has gotten boring to death.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
June 02 2016 09:15 GMT
#78482
On June 02 2016 10:53 GoTuNk! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2016 07:18 Paljas wrote:
On June 02 2016 06:29 Plansix wrote:
Seizing capital they already have is not the plan and never should be. But they have to spend that money to do something with it and they have incomes, all which can be taxed.

Why should it not be the plan to expropriate?


Because the western world is built upon certain human rights and would crumble to pieces if they were dismantled, as some extreme leftist, like yourself aparently, are trying or willing to do.

Feel free to look at Venezuela and see what happens when you start expropiating things.

Human rights are dismantled in the western world on a regular basis.

Luckily, seizing captial is no such violation, just like taxes do not violate human rights.
Also, what Igne said.
TL+ Member
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6336 Posts
June 02 2016 09:16 GMT
#78483
Obama's teleprompter goes down during a speech

"No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot." - Mark Twain
GoTuNk!
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Chile4591 Posts
June 02 2016 12:08 GMT
#78484
On June 02 2016 18:15 Paljas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2016 10:53 GoTuNk! wrote:
On June 02 2016 07:18 Paljas wrote:
On June 02 2016 06:29 Plansix wrote:
Seizing capital they already have is not the plan and never should be. But they have to spend that money to do something with it and they have incomes, all which can be taxed.

Why should it not be the plan to expropriate?


Because the western world is built upon certain human rights and would crumble to pieces if they were dismantled, as some extreme leftist, like yourself aparently, are trying or willing to do.

Feel free to look at Venezuela and see what happens when you start expropiating things.

Human rights are dismantled in the western world on a regular basis.

Luckily, seizing captial is no such violation, just like taxes do not violate human rights.
Also, what Igne said.


There is a world of difference between taxes and expropiation.

Should we replace income tax with forced labor as well?
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
June 02 2016 12:19 GMT
#78485
On June 02 2016 18:16 zeo wrote:
Obama's teleprompter goes down during a speech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSxo9-Z5Ki0

Lol, didn't expect he'd be thrown off guard that much.
sorry for dem one liners
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 02 2016 13:00 GMT
#78486
On June 02 2016 21:19 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2016 18:16 zeo wrote:
Obama's teleprompter goes down during a speech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSxo9-Z5Ki0

Lol, didn't expect he'd be thrown off guard that much.

I bet he does not get a lot of time to prepare for these smaller speeches, but it really threw him off his game. This is why paper backups are critical to public speaking.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 02 2016 13:04 GMT
#78487
On June 02 2016 18:15 Paljas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2016 10:53 GoTuNk! wrote:
On June 02 2016 07:18 Paljas wrote:
On June 02 2016 06:29 Plansix wrote:
Seizing capital they already have is not the plan and never should be. But they have to spend that money to do something with it and they have incomes, all which can be taxed.

Why should it not be the plan to expropriate?


Because the western world is built upon certain human rights and would crumble to pieces if they were dismantled, as some extreme leftist, like yourself aparently, are trying or willing to do.

Feel free to look at Venezuela and see what happens when you start expropiating things.

Human rights are dismantled in the western world on a regular basis.

Luckily, seizing captial is no such violation, just like taxes do not violate human rights.
Also, what Igne said.

Yes, but seizing property is a power that the government has because the people agree to it. It is based on trust that those powers will not be abused and reasonable systems will be created to address problems. The mass seizure of wealth just because the sitting government decided that a select group of people had too much would have massive public backlash. Taxing the wealth when it is transferred is an accepted way to deal with the wealth disparity that does not cause public unrest or backlash.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18846 Posts
June 02 2016 14:05 GMT
#78488
They’re called unicorns, though they’re a little less rare than that.

That’s what Wall Street calls private start-up companies whose investors value them at $1 billion or more. Best-known examples include such companies as Uber, Airbnb, Snapchat and Pinterest.

Policy Matters Ohio took a look at where these companies are located, to see if state income taxes played a role (see graphic).

By far the largest number – a whopping 55 of the 87 U.S.-based companies on a list compiled by the Wall Street Journal in April – are located in California. That state happens to have by far the highest top income-tax rate in the country, at 13.3 percent. Another 10 are in New York State, whose top rate of 8.82 percent ranks 6th highest in the nation, according to the Federation of Tax Administrators. A grand total of five unicorns are based in states without income taxes (Florida, Washington and Texas).

Clearly, income taxes aren’t an impediment to these high flyers.

Of course, one should hardly expect them to be, given that young, fast-growing companies don’t typically make a lot of money. For a variety of reasons, as experts at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities have noted, cutting taxes is no prescription for economic vitality. In fact, it may stunt growth by reducing investments in education, infrastructure and public services, undercutting efforts to develop a trained workforce and offer a high quality of life.

Some of these firms will never meet their investors’ high expectations and will instead fizzle out. The valuations mark just one point in time; already, some of them have run into trouble. Others may be pursuing business strategies that are, at the least, controversial. And of course, a lot more goes into regional economic success than where these high-profile businesses happen to establish themselves.

However, their locations are one more sign that arguments for lower income taxes may sound simple and convincing, but have little basis in fact.


High-flying startups don’t flock to low-tax states
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 02 2016 14:18 GMT
#78489
On June 02 2016 23:05 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
They’re called unicorns, though they’re a little less rare than that.

That’s what Wall Street calls private start-up companies whose investors value them at $1 billion or more. Best-known examples include such companies as Uber, Airbnb, Snapchat and Pinterest.

Policy Matters Ohio took a look at where these companies are located, to see if state income taxes played a role (see graphic).

By far the largest number – a whopping 55 of the 87 U.S.-based companies on a list compiled by the Wall Street Journal in April – are located in California. That state happens to have by far the highest top income-tax rate in the country, at 13.3 percent. Another 10 are in New York State, whose top rate of 8.82 percent ranks 6th highest in the nation, according to the Federation of Tax Administrators. A grand total of five unicorns are based in states without income taxes (Florida, Washington and Texas).

Clearly, income taxes aren’t an impediment to these high flyers.

Of course, one should hardly expect them to be, given that young, fast-growing companies don’t typically make a lot of money. For a variety of reasons, as experts at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities have noted, cutting taxes is no prescription for economic vitality. In fact, it may stunt growth by reducing investments in education, infrastructure and public services, undercutting efforts to develop a trained workforce and offer a high quality of life.

Some of these firms will never meet their investors’ high expectations and will instead fizzle out. The valuations mark just one point in time; already, some of them have run into trouble. Others may be pursuing business strategies that are, at the least, controversial. And of course, a lot more goes into regional economic success than where these high-profile businesses happen to establish themselves.

However, their locations are one more sign that arguments for lower income taxes may sound simple and convincing, but have little basis in fact.


High-flying startups don’t flock to low-tax states

They are in California because that is where the VC money is and has been. That is slowly changing, but it's not something that transitions over night. Just look at Hollywood's leakage of business as an example.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18846 Posts
June 02 2016 14:25 GMT
#78490
That begs the question though as to why VC money flourished and flourishes in one of the highest tax states in the nation. Though there a huge host of variables outside the tax equation, to be sure, the concentration of capital relative to tax rates casts a lot of doubt on conservative tax narratives. And before someone says it, yes, Georgia and Texas are exceptions to the rule, but the nature of the work that has attracted capital interest tells the tale vis a vie the incredibly cheap cost of labor in both states.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15737 Posts
June 02 2016 14:33 GMT
#78491
On June 02 2016 23:18 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2016 23:05 farvacola wrote:
They’re called unicorns, though they’re a little less rare than that.

That’s what Wall Street calls private start-up companies whose investors value them at $1 billion or more. Best-known examples include such companies as Uber, Airbnb, Snapchat and Pinterest.

Policy Matters Ohio took a look at where these companies are located, to see if state income taxes played a role (see graphic).

By far the largest number – a whopping 55 of the 87 U.S.-based companies on a list compiled by the Wall Street Journal in April – are located in California. That state happens to have by far the highest top income-tax rate in the country, at 13.3 percent. Another 10 are in New York State, whose top rate of 8.82 percent ranks 6th highest in the nation, according to the Federation of Tax Administrators. A grand total of five unicorns are based in states without income taxes (Florida, Washington and Texas).

Clearly, income taxes aren’t an impediment to these high flyers.

Of course, one should hardly expect them to be, given that young, fast-growing companies don’t typically make a lot of money. For a variety of reasons, as experts at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities have noted, cutting taxes is no prescription for economic vitality. In fact, it may stunt growth by reducing investments in education, infrastructure and public services, undercutting efforts to develop a trained workforce and offer a high quality of life.

Some of these firms will never meet their investors’ high expectations and will instead fizzle out. The valuations mark just one point in time; already, some of them have run into trouble. Others may be pursuing business strategies that are, at the least, controversial. And of course, a lot more goes into regional economic success than where these high-profile businesses happen to establish themselves.

However, their locations are one more sign that arguments for lower income taxes may sound simple and convincing, but have little basis in fact.


High-flying startups don’t flock to low-tax states

They are in California because that is where the VC money is and has been. That is slowly changing, but it's not something that transitions over night. Just look at Hollywood's leakage of business as an example.


Not to say I don't believe you, but I find the whole idea of VC money being localized very strange. I would think the internet would make it easier for more areas to be connected.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15737 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-02 14:41:51
June 02 2016 14:41 GMT
#78492
NYT: How the Democratic Race Will Probably End

Of note:


Mr. Sanders was generally hurt by closed primaries. By our estimates, he did about 3.5 points worse in such contests. But most states aren’t closed, so Mr. Sanders wasn’t hurt that badly over all. And Mrs. Clinton was hurt more by caucuses, where she did about 10 points worse, according to the same model.

If every contest in the country had been an open primary, Mrs. Clinton’s delegate lead would have grown. She would have lost ground in some of the contests, gained ground in the states with large numbers of anti-Obama registered Democrats (Oklahoma, West Virginia and Kentucky), and gained lots of ground in Western caucuses — where Mr. Sanders earned most of his big delegate hauls.

Over all, Mrs. Clinton would have about a 12-point lead in pledged delegates if every state had an open primary, according to our estimates. She would already be the presumptive nominee.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
June 02 2016 14:47 GMT
#78493
On June 02 2016 23:25 farvacola wrote:
That begs the question though as to why VC money flourished and flourishes in one of the highest tax states in the nation. Though there a huge host of variables outside the tax equation, to be sure, the concentration of capital relative to tax rates casts a lot of doubt on conservative tax narratives. And before someone says it, yes, Georgia and Texas are exceptions to the rule, but the nature of the work that has attracted capital interest tells the tale vis a vie the incredibly cheap cost of labor in both states.


As someone who works in VC, it's because the availability of resources in California just outstrips pretty much everywhere else. You'll pay primo dollar for everything but it's worth it to both businesses and investors who know what they're getting into.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18846 Posts
June 02 2016 14:50 GMT
#78494
Indeed, and it follows that states with ample amounts of resources are states that tax enough to afford them. Startups love stuff like mass transit, good condition roads, quality educational institutions, and the like, all of which are paid for, in large part, by tax dollars.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
June 02 2016 14:52 GMT
#78495
On June 02 2016 23:25 farvacola wrote:
That begs the question though as to why VC money flourished and flourishes in one of the highest tax states in the nation. Though there a huge host of variables outside the tax equation, to be sure, the concentration of capital relative to tax rates casts a lot of doubt on conservative tax narratives. And before someone says it, yes, Georgia and Texas are exceptions to the rule, but the nature of the work that has attracted capital interest tells the tale vis a vie the incredibly cheap cost of labor in both states.

Like a lot of things, the SV startup scene owes a lot of its success to early government investment. Specifically, the government put in a lot of money into defense contracts in California, and that really helped to jumpstart the scene. After that, it seems that the major owners of capital stayed there, and required people to be in California to raise any significant amount of capital. If not for the availability of easy money capital, it would be a pretty stupid decision to work there.

Some more info that partially addresses SV's defense industry:
Silicon Valley's ties to the government are decades old. Back in the 1980s, the valley's biggest employer was Sunnyvale's Lockheed Missiles and Space, which developed weapons and spy satellites for the Defense Department. The Internet itself started as a defense research project. And military contracts helped support the famed SRI think tank in Menlo Park, where researchers have developed and in some cases spun off pioneering technology used in robotics, mapping and the voice-recognition software that powers Apple's (AAPL) Siri personal assistant.

Today, the CIA has its own venture capital fund, In-Q-Tel, to help finance promising tech startups. Software-makers such as Palo Alto's Palantir Technologies sell sophisticated programs that law enforcement and intelligence agencies use to analyze vast amounts of data. Mainline companies such as Cisco Systems (CSCO), Oracle (ORCL) and Hewlett-Packard (HPQ) have multimillion-dollar contracts to supply computer hardware and tech services to the military and other government offices.

Source
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 02 2016 14:54 GMT
#78496
On June 02 2016 23:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2016 23:25 farvacola wrote:
That begs the question though as to why VC money flourished and flourishes in one of the highest tax states in the nation. Though there a huge host of variables outside the tax equation, to be sure, the concentration of capital relative to tax rates casts a lot of doubt on conservative tax narratives. And before someone says it, yes, Georgia and Texas are exceptions to the rule, but the nature of the work that has attracted capital interest tells the tale vis a vie the incredibly cheap cost of labor in both states.


As someone who works in VC, it's because the availability of resources in California just outstrips pretty much everywhere else. You'll pay primo dollar for everything but it's worth it to both businesses and investors who know what they're getting into.

Yeah, basically this. I know a lot of people in the tech and VC worlds, and have done some work in it for my clients. California is uniquely set up resource-wise for people seeking out VC investment. And the reason why the money is there is because of the tech boom, which occurred in California because, when the tech boom started, California was the premier low cost alternative to older parts of the country.

And the other thing to keep in mind is that high taxes and cost of living concerns aren't necessarily the only concerns of people. There are other components to quality of life, all of which are going to be valued differently by people. California has a lot of things going for it that offset its ridiculously high tax burdens and cost of living. But if you ask people who are what they think about the taxes and costs of living, they certainly aren't happy with it.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18846 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-02 15:04:14
June 02 2016 14:57 GMT
#78497
Even if the success of VC in California can be chalked up almost entirely to historical fortune and a few key investment decisions, it still runs counter to the notion that tax-and-spend states chase away business. For a good example of this phenomena in action outside the likely black swan success of California, just compare Wisconsin with Minnesota.

Speaking of startups.....

Elizabeth Holmes, the founder of the blood testing company Theranos, was a rare breed, something more rare than even the Silicon Valley unicorn she created: a self-made female billionaire. Forbes, the business publication that has made a franchise of cataloging the rich, had put Ms. Holmes on the top of its list last year of America’s richest self-made women.

The magazine’s new estimated tally of her wealth? It went from $4.5 billion to $0.

Ms. Holmes’s unusual status, as a young woman who created and controlled a company seemingly valued at about $9 billion, captivated the media: She graced countless magazine covers, including T: The New York Times Style Magazine. Theranos, she said, would revolutionize the lab industry by offering blood tests from a single finger prick at a fraction of the cost of traditional testing.

But over the last year, Theranos became the subject of a series of hard-hitting Wall Street Journal articles and intense regulatory scrutiny from an array of federal agencies.

The media is now mesmerized by Ms. Holmes’s fall. Truth be told, the half of the $9 billion valuation ascribed to Theranos and previously listed as Ms. Holmes’s wealth was nothing more than an estimate based on investors’ best guesses. Taking into account all the controversy and uncertainty surrounding the value of the company’s top-secret technology, Forbes is now guessing that the company is worth more like $800 million. While Ms. Holmes still owns at least half of the company, much of that value would be tied up with outside investors.

But, as an article in Forbes on Wednesday about Ms. Holmes is quick to acknowledge, no one really knows. Theranos has not let anyone really kick the tires. Ms. Holmes, 32, who has repeatedly vowed to reveal all, is now expected to present some data to the public in August at the annual meeting of the AACC, formerly the American Association for Clinical Chemistry. Even then, it may be impossible to come up with a better estimate of what her company is worth.

Not surprisingly, Theranos refused to shed any light on the matter, except to dispute Forbes’s analysis.

“As a privately held company, we declined to share confidential information with Forbes,” Brooke Buchanan, a company spokeswoman, said in an emailed statement. “As a result, the article was based exclusively on speculation and press reports.”


Elizabeth Holmes, Founder of Theranos, Falls From Highest Perch Off Forbes List
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15737 Posts
June 02 2016 15:06 GMT
#78498
On June 02 2016 23:50 farvacola wrote:
Indeed, and it follows that states with ample amounts of resources are states that tax enough to afford them. Startups love stuff like mass transit, good condition roads, quality educational institutions, and the like, all of which are paid for, in large part, by tax dollars.


I think saying California's university system is a resource for silicon valley would be an understatement.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-02 15:12:49
June 02 2016 15:08 GMT
#78499
On June 02 2016 23:57 farvacola wrote:
Even if the success of VC in California can be chalked up almost entirely to historical fortune and a few key investment decisions, it still runs counter to the notion that tax-and-spend states chase away business. For a good example of this phenomena in action outside the likely black swan success of California, just compare Wisconsin with Minnesota.

Sure, it is obviously true (except to the unreasonable) that you have to offer more than just tax breaks to have businesses want to come to your state. And furthermore, it's pretty clear that infrastructure is a pretty big part of what makes that work (roads, buildings, universities, proximity of a real population in general). However, I also offer the following article as an example of tax arguments in California business.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/apple-cupertino-mayor/#:JVyLPN2YwDtd3A

Keep in mind that there was a time when the appeal of California was how cheap it was to live in relative to other highly developed areas.

On June 02 2016 23:54 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 02 2016 23:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
On June 02 2016 23:25 farvacola wrote:
That begs the question though as to why VC money flourished and flourishes in one of the highest tax states in the nation. Though there a huge host of variables outside the tax equation, to be sure, the concentration of capital relative to tax rates casts a lot of doubt on conservative tax narratives. And before someone says it, yes, Georgia and Texas are exceptions to the rule, but the nature of the work that has attracted capital interest tells the tale vis a vie the incredibly cheap cost of labor in both states.


As someone who works in VC, it's because the availability of resources in California just outstrips pretty much everywhere else. You'll pay primo dollar for everything but it's worth it to both businesses and investors who know what they're getting into.

Yeah, basically this. I know a lot of people in the tech and VC worlds, and have done some work in it for my clients. California is uniquely set up resource-wise for people seeking out VC investment. And the reason why the money is there is because of the tech boom, which occurred in California because, when the tech boom started, California was the premier low cost alternative to older parts of the country.

And the other thing to keep in mind is that high taxes and cost of living concerns aren't necessarily the only concerns of people. There are other components to quality of life, all of which are going to be valued differently by people. California has a lot of things going for it that offset its ridiculously high tax burdens and cost of living. But if you ask people who are what they think about the taxes and costs of living, they certainly aren't happy with it.

Far as I know, the California SV startup scene is a lot more of a bummer for the workers who live off a salary than for the investors/owners who have enough money to begin with. A situation like NYC or like any other highly-developed, very expensive city is probably the ultimate outcome of all this.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-02 17:00:06
June 02 2016 16:44 GMT
#78500
Louisiana offered tax breaks, the problem is with those is that it's not a great sticking point so companies packed up and left pretty quick when they saw a better offer. If high taxes results in/are the costs of good infrastructure/ business environment, then companies are going to be okay with it from an investment/ ROI perspective.

Looking at talent, a good developer in the SV area is going to have people knocking down his (or her) doors-- big name startups flush with cash alongside name brands like Apple and Google. There are lots of devs, they cost lots of money and there's lots of demand. Other places everything is smaller - the talent pool, the comp packages and the demand.

The extreme competition and expensive in SV is bad for those who live there who aren't close enough to also benefit from the ecosystem driving up the costs. One of the aforementioned dev sis gonna be pretty okay, but if you're like blue collar guy then those prices are gonna push you out sadly.

The one comment I will make is that CA startup culture has a problem where many companies coddle their employees and really spend to provide perks that help to provide the illusion of success, even beyond the "we treat you the best so you work the best". You'll have companies with zero revenue or a product that's not even sales-ready with catered meals and a fully stocked pantry which is just silly. There's also a joke that back in the day an entrepreneur needed a product and revenue, then it was a product, and now all they need is an idea. Thankfully those excesses are going down along with the ridiculous valuations b/c of the exit crunch.

Also Elizabeth Holmes is a fraud. I expect people will start suing her soon.
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