|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On May 21 2016 01:27 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 01:24 Rebs wrote:On May 21 2016 01:23 SK.Testie wrote:
My stance isn't hypocritical. I went through the system with the police. I have a mugshot from when I was in my teens. How do you think I was treated by them? Harsh, but fair. My white privilege didn't save me when they caught me breaking the law. Are you in jail right now ? Yeah... Do you think police are locking up first time offenders that show them proper respect and seem like genuinely good kids because of what they did for years and years?
In America, people go to jail for years and years without even being convicted of a crime:
Last fall, I wrote about a young man named Kalief Browder, who spent three years on Rikers Island without being convicted of a crime. He had been arrested in the spring of 2010, at age sixteen, for a robbery he insisted he had not committed. Then he spent more than one thousand days on Rikers waiting for a trial that never happened. During that time, he endured about two years in solitary confinement, where he attempted to end his life several times. Once, in February, 2012, he ripped his bedsheet into strips, tied them together to create a noose, and tried to hang himself from the light fixture in his cell.
www.newyorker.com
|
On May 21 2016 01:25 cLutZ wrote:I do think that something lost is the US incarceration rate is that while I would say we need to reduce the number of crimes, particularly non-violent crimes, that exist, they aren't filling our jails as one would say. Such as this Stat from Biff: Show nested quote +On May 20 2016 20:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I find absolutely fascinating that anyone could even talk about under incarceration in the US, while the country has such a gigantic problem with over incarceration. The statistics in the US are absolutely mad:
698 people in jail for 100K citizen.
In Norway where I live it's 71
In Germany 78
In France 100
In Canada 106 E ven if you eliminate the 46% of offenses labeled "drug offenses" you see that our stats would be much higher, which means we are NOT comparable to those countries. Others even argue that non-violent possession is closer to only 20% of the prison population. Which makes the difference all the more stark. What is actually going on in America is, for lack of a batter phrase, a lack of social cohesion, which diversity is thought to contribute to (although it has other benefits) not unlike the one that France, Germany, and Norway are epically mishandling in the Arab refugee crises. And, a large part of our prison population is, IMO caused by the attempt to impose standards that, while often aspirational, are not going to work out well for large swaths of the population; whether they are inner city minorities, or the Budnys.
Those statistics don't even count the people who did something like steal a plant car or other similar crimes and then 3 years later on probation (while they are rebuilding their lives) get popped for a hot UA (usually for cannabis) and go back to prison because of cannabis but get's documented as serving time for the stolen car.
|
On May 21 2016 01:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 01:25 cLutZ wrote:I do think that something lost is the US incarceration rate is that while I would say we need to reduce the number of crimes, particularly non-violent crimes, that exist, they aren't filling our jails as one would say. Such as this Stat from Biff: On May 20 2016 20:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I find absolutely fascinating that anyone could even talk about under incarceration in the US, while the country has such a gigantic problem with over incarceration. The statistics in the US are absolutely mad:
698 people in jail for 100K citizen.
In Norway where I live it's 71
In Germany 78
In France 100
In Canada 106 E ven if you eliminate the 46% of offenses labeled "drug offenses" you see that our stats would be much higher, which means we are NOT comparable to those countries. Others even argue that non-violent possession is closer to only 20% of the prison population. Which makes the difference all the more stark. What is actually going on in America is, for lack of a batter phrase, a lack of social cohesion, which diversity is thought to contribute to (although it has other benefits) not unlike the one that France, Germany, and Norway are epically mishandling in the Arab refugee crises. And, a large part of our prison population is, IMO caused by the attempt to impose standards that, while often aspirational, are not going to work out well for large swaths of the population; whether they are inner city minorities, or the Budnys. Those statistics don't even count the people who did something like steal a plant car or other similar crimes and then 3 years later on probation (while they are rebuilding their lives) get popped for a hot UA (usually for cannabis) and go back to prison because of cannabis but get's documented as serving time for the stolen car.
Let us not forget being thrown in jail for failing to pay court fees and fines. Because debtors prison is back in style.
|
On May 21 2016 01:40 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 01:23 SK.Testie wrote:
My stance isn't hypocritical. I went through the system with the police. I have a mugshot from when I was in my teens. How do you think I was treated by them? Harsh, but fair. My white privilege didn't save me when they caught me breaking the law.
I think you're under estimating the police and how reasonable they are versus what some departments put up with. Some deal with a warzone. Others deal with a peaceful and quaint little town. If they see someone show them proper respect and dignity, they are usually quite understanding and lenient regardless of the persons colour. At the time I didn't show them proper respect or dignity, I was more fearful because "oh fuck I got caught doing something pretty bad. I'm probably pretty fucked now" And I was fucked. Quite fucked indeed. sorry about making a wrong assumption. point largely stands though (not the hypocritical part)- I find it quite likely that your white privilege saved you more than you recognize.
I think it was Canadian privilege more than white. Canada is not nearly as bad as the US regarding all this stuff.
|
Norway28670 Posts
That is true. Still relevant to the US discussion though, as US incarceration rates is what sparked the topic. Basically remove everything that had even a semblance of testie-attack from my post, and there's a valid point in there. 
|
On May 21 2016 01:40 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2016 22:46 Plansix wrote:On May 20 2016 22:33 TMagpie wrote:
The issue with prison in the US is lack of commitment.
If something was so bad that the person needs to be given maximum punishment just kill him. If you believe the person can still be reformed and will be safe for society then just give him a few years with a big staff of experts to teach them to be better. But this cowardly way of punishing people with life sentences or even 10-20 year sentences is just awful. If will take 20 years to fix them just kill them already. There is a long list of flaws with this plan, but the most evident one is that our justice system is imperfect. It is estimated that we have around a 2%-3% error rate with our current executions, which means people are executed for crimes they are not guilty of. Until that is 100% accurate, we cannot even think about increasing the number of capital punishments. And then there are all the other flaws like lack of deterrents, abuse of the system, lacking public defense, the private prison system encouraging harsh punishments to make higher profits. And that issue that how we treat criminals relates directly the type of people we are as a whole. stuff
How many accounts do you have ? I am counting 3 already 
Do you realize that there are people who are not guilty, and by not declaring themselves guilty they can't get access to rehabilitation programs until they do ? And eventually, they are found not guilty.
By the way, wasn't more expensive to execute someone than a live sentence ?
|
On May 21 2016 01:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 01:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 21 2016 01:25 cLutZ wrote:I do think that something lost is the US incarceration rate is that while I would say we need to reduce the number of crimes, particularly non-violent crimes, that exist, they aren't filling our jails as one would say. Such as this Stat from Biff: On May 20 2016 20:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I find absolutely fascinating that anyone could even talk about under incarceration in the US, while the country has such a gigantic problem with over incarceration. The statistics in the US are absolutely mad:
698 people in jail for 100K citizen.
In Norway where I live it's 71
In Germany 78
In France 100
In Canada 106 E ven if you eliminate the 46% of offenses labeled "drug offenses" you see that our stats would be much higher, which means we are NOT comparable to those countries. Others even argue that non-violent possession is closer to only 20% of the prison population. Which makes the difference all the more stark. What is actually going on in America is, for lack of a batter phrase, a lack of social cohesion, which diversity is thought to contribute to (although it has other benefits) not unlike the one that France, Germany, and Norway are epically mishandling in the Arab refugee crises. And, a large part of our prison population is, IMO caused by the attempt to impose standards that, while often aspirational, are not going to work out well for large swaths of the population; whether they are inner city minorities, or the Budnys. Those statistics don't even count the people who did something like steal a plant car or other similar crimes and then 3 years later on probation (while they are rebuilding their lives) get popped for a hot UA (usually for cannabis) and go back to prison because of cannabis but get's documented as serving time for the stolen car. Let us not forget being thrown in jail for failing to pay court fees and fines. Because debtors prison is back in style.
I mean, neither of those are substantive responses to a statistics filled post. Those things do happen, but are more likely than not to be fairly insignificant portions of the population. Particularly when people say we should be incarcerating about 1/6 the number of people we do.
|
On May 21 2016 01:56 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 01:51 Plansix wrote:On May 21 2016 01:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 21 2016 01:25 cLutZ wrote:I do think that something lost is the US incarceration rate is that while I would say we need to reduce the number of crimes, particularly non-violent crimes, that exist, they aren't filling our jails as one would say. Such as this Stat from Biff: On May 20 2016 20:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I find absolutely fascinating that anyone could even talk about under incarceration in the US, while the country has such a gigantic problem with over incarceration. The statistics in the US are absolutely mad:
698 people in jail for 100K citizen.
In Norway where I live it's 71
In Germany 78
In France 100
In Canada 106 E ven if you eliminate the 46% of offenses labeled "drug offenses" you see that our stats would be much higher, which means we are NOT comparable to those countries. Others even argue that non-violent possession is closer to only 20% of the prison population. Which makes the difference all the more stark. What is actually going on in America is, for lack of a batter phrase, a lack of social cohesion, which diversity is thought to contribute to (although it has other benefits) not unlike the one that France, Germany, and Norway are epically mishandling in the Arab refugee crises. And, a large part of our prison population is, IMO caused by the attempt to impose standards that, while often aspirational, are not going to work out well for large swaths of the population; whether they are inner city minorities, or the Budnys. Those statistics don't even count the people who did something like steal a plant car or other similar crimes and then 3 years later on probation (while they are rebuilding their lives) get popped for a hot UA (usually for cannabis) and go back to prison because of cannabis but get's documented as serving time for the stolen car. Let us not forget being thrown in jail for failing to pay court fees and fines. Because debtors prison is back in style. I mean, neither of those are substantive responses to a statistics filled post. Those things do happen, but are more likely than not to be fairly insignificant portions of the population. Particularly when people say we should be incarcerating about 1/6 the number of people we do.
It is a very well reported on issue in the poverty stricken areas of the country.
http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/02/09/384968360/jail-time-for-unpaid-court-fines-and-fees-can-create-cycle-of-poverty
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/04/08/why-i-refuse-to-send-people-to-jail-for-failure-to-pay-fines/
Even the justice department has addressed it:
https://www.justice.gov/crt/file/832461/download
And the White House:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/1215_cea_fine_fee_bail_issue_brief.pdf
I have also discussed it previously in this thread and the issues with the cycle of incarceration it creates. I am not sure if you were part of this discussion, but it is a well documents problem within our industry.
Specifically this aspect:
The disproportionate impact of these fixed payments on the poor raises concerns not
only about fairness, but also because high monetary sanctions can lead to high levels of debt and even
incarceration for failure to fulfil a payment. In some jurisdictions, approximately 20 percent of all jail inmates
were incarcerated for failure to pay criminal justice debts.
Do you dispute that this is going on or that incarceration is happening not because of the crime itself, but by setting offenders up for failure by hitting them with fines they will never be able to pay? Do you not see that as a problem?
Also, it should note that once the person is released from jail, they normally are put on probation. Probation also has fines and costs associated with it, which the defendant likely won't be able to pay upon release.
|
Debtors prison is pretty suspect and extremely vicious. I don't know if you'll get many people arguing for debtors prison here as it seems extremely predatory to the most vulnerable members of society.
|
On May 21 2016 02:14 SK.Testie wrote:
Debtors prison is pretty suspect and extremely vicious. I don't know if you'll get many people arguing for debtors prison here as it seems extremely predatory to the most vulnerable members of society.
So perhaps you're thinking we have an over incarceration of petty criminals and an underincarceration of more serious offenders?
The problem remains though that our criminal punishment system doesn't work. Virtually every country who's tried a rehabilitative system has been shown to provide much better results. So long as the idea is to just punish them for breaking stupid laws more incarceration will only increase problems not resolve them.
|
On May 21 2016 01:55 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 01:40 Naracs_Duc wrote:On May 20 2016 22:46 Plansix wrote:On May 20 2016 22:33 TMagpie wrote:
The issue with prison in the US is lack of commitment.
If something was so bad that the person needs to be given maximum punishment just kill him. If you believe the person can still be reformed and will be safe for society then just give him a few years with a big staff of experts to teach them to be better. But this cowardly way of punishing people with life sentences or even 10-20 year sentences is just awful. If will take 20 years to fix them just kill them already. There is a long list of flaws with this plan, but the most evident one is that our justice system is imperfect. It is estimated that we have around a 2%-3% error rate with our current executions, which means people are executed for crimes they are not guilty of. Until that is 100% accurate, we cannot even think about increasing the number of capital punishments. And then there are all the other flaws like lack of deterrents, abuse of the system, lacking public defense, the private prison system encouraging harsh punishments to make higher profits. And that issue that how we treat criminals relates directly the type of people we are as a whole. stuff How many accounts do you have ? I am counting 3 already Do you realize that there are people who are not guilty, and by not declaring themselves guilty they can't get access to rehabilitation programs until they do ? And eventually, they are found not guilty. By the way, wasn't more expensive to execute someone than a live sentence ?
yes; iirc it's been well documented that executions cost more than a life sentence, due to all the extra safeguards and more trial costs.
also iirc for people on death row (waiting to be executed) the leading cause of death is old age, rather than execution (cuz it's soooooo slow to finish the process)
|
Norway28670 Posts
On May 21 2016 01:40 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2016 22:46 Plansix wrote:On May 20 2016 22:33 TMagpie wrote:
The issue with prison in the US is lack of commitment.
If something was so bad that the person needs to be given maximum punishment just kill him. If you believe the person can still be reformed and will be safe for society then just give him a few years with a big staff of experts to teach them to be better. But this cowardly way of punishing people with life sentences or even 10-20 year sentences is just awful. If will take 20 years to fix them just kill them already. There is a long list of flaws with this plan, but the most evident one is that our justice system is imperfect. It is estimated that we have around a 2%-3% error rate with our current executions, which means people are executed for crimes they are not guilty of. Until that is 100% accurate, we cannot even think about increasing the number of capital punishments. And then there are all the other flaws like lack of deterrents, abuse of the system, lacking public defense, the private prison system encouraging harsh punishments to make higher profits. And that issue that how we treat criminals relates directly the type of people we are as a whole. You don't seem to understand what I am saying. I'm not saying we need more capital punishment, I'm saying that we need to commit to what we imagine a punishment system should be and stick to it. Do you really think putting someone in prison for 20-40 years will reform them? Or will it make them so far behind the times in both training, education, and work experience that they can only have jobs that don't make enough forcing them back to crime. Either you only put them in jail for 4-5 years believing they can be reformed, or you execute them. Spending billions of resources to just put someone in a box for a hundred years does nothing to make the world a better place. And if you honestly do not think that the person can be reformed in 4-5 years, not successful mind you, just reformed--then you just execute them. The issue in the US is that we want to use years of servitude as punishment instead of reform. We don't put someone in jail for 20 years because we believe that specific person needs 20 years of training and counseling to become a normal citizen again--we do so because we are an angry vindictive and cruel society who wants people to feel pain if they do anything to cross us. So either try to reform them, or kill them. Making a system that forces people to be trapped in a cycle of imprisonment, poverty, and slavery is more cruel than simply enforcing capital punishment. It hurts the people in it, it hurts the citizens paying for it, and it only makes the problem of crime worse. If you're agains capital punishment then that is fine--but don't put someone in a box of violence and hate for 20-80 years and expect them to be fixed. Short prison terms or execution--those are the only real options for "punishment."
While what you post is logically sound, I think a balance has to be struck between 'rehabilitation', 'deterrence', 'intrinsic value of life' and 'feelings of the victims'. I agree that putting people in jail for 20+ years and expecting rehabilitation doesn't work- but I also don't know whether 4-5 years for a rehabilitatable murderer gives sufficient solace to the family of the victim. I agree that deterrence is largely going to be the same from 5 years as 20 years, but deterrence actually does need to have some degree of 'your life is gonna be kinda fucked' for it to be a sufficient deterrence. I mean, if rehabilitation programs become so good that they start functioning as a way of building a career for the poor and uneducated, you suddenly incentivize crimes instead.
I think the american justice system has been way, way on the wrong side in terms of how strict punishments they dish out - and I think the Norwegian justice system is in many ways exemplary, but I'm not sure we actually want to be more lenient than we are here - there's already some degree of dissonance between what punishment criminals get and what 'people' want them to get, and while I don't want to cater too much to people's vengeful nature, if too many people start feeling that the justice system is not just - one way or the other - that is problematic. If anything, the change needs to be gradual, because while people's opinions are subject to change (Norwegians by large still favor significantly more lenient justice systems than what Americans by large do), it takes a while for it to happen. Finding this balance and 'ideal speed of societal progress' is tricky, but radical change without popular support is generally a recipe for disaster imo, no matter how well-intended and well-reasoned.
|
On May 21 2016 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
So perhaps you're thinking we have an over incarceration of petty criminals and an underincarceration of more serious offenders?
It depends. Theft isn't a petty crime, nor is destruction of private property. Nor is distribution of drugs etc. Not paying a parking ticket on time and then having to pay more and more and more because of it is a little suspect.
Again: I prefer how Singapore handles things than I do Portugal. Both are successful in their own way despite vastly different approaches.
However: In the USA's case I think you'd need to go the Portugal route first to avoid open murder of a large swath of people because you know.. genocide is kind of a dick move, and then implement Singapore rules from the top with an address to the nation and a leniency period so that everyone knows what's going to go down if you're still a drug offender in X years. It would cut the cartel business drastically and give many of the most impoverished communities a better hope for the future imo. If USA goes the route of Portugal, I see them becoming socialist more akin to Venezuela. Always trying to do too much for its populace to keep them happy to keep getting votes while the debt just grows and grows and grows. People simply trying to get the most out of the country, rather than trying to contribute the most to it.
This of course, will come after The Great Wall of Trump is built.
|
On May 21 2016 02:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 01:56 cLutZ wrote:On May 21 2016 01:51 Plansix wrote:On May 21 2016 01:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 21 2016 01:25 cLutZ wrote:I do think that something lost is the US incarceration rate is that while I would say we need to reduce the number of crimes, particularly non-violent crimes, that exist, they aren't filling our jails as one would say. Such as this Stat from Biff: On May 20 2016 20:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I find absolutely fascinating that anyone could even talk about under incarceration in the US, while the country has such a gigantic problem with over incarceration. The statistics in the US are absolutely mad:
698 people in jail for 100K citizen.
In Norway where I live it's 71
In Germany 78
In France 100
In Canada 106 E ven if you eliminate the 46% of offenses labeled "drug offenses" you see that our stats would be much higher, which means we are NOT comparable to those countries. Others even argue that non-violent possession is closer to only 20% of the prison population. Which makes the difference all the more stark. What is actually going on in America is, for lack of a batter phrase, a lack of social cohesion, which diversity is thought to contribute to (although it has other benefits) not unlike the one that France, Germany, and Norway are epically mishandling in the Arab refugee crises. And, a large part of our prison population is, IMO caused by the attempt to impose standards that, while often aspirational, are not going to work out well for large swaths of the population; whether they are inner city minorities, or the Budnys. Those statistics don't even count the people who did something like steal a plant car or other similar crimes and then 3 years later on probation (while they are rebuilding their lives) get popped for a hot UA (usually for cannabis) and go back to prison because of cannabis but get's documented as serving time for the stolen car. Let us not forget being thrown in jail for failing to pay court fees and fines. Because debtors prison is back in style. I mean, neither of those are substantive responses to a statistics filled post. Those things do happen, but are more likely than not to be fairly insignificant portions of the population. Particularly when people say we should be incarcerating about 1/6 the number of people we do. It is a very well reported on issue in the poverty stricken areas of the country. http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/02/09/384968360/jail-time-for-unpaid-court-fines-and-fees-can-create-cycle-of-povertyhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/04/08/why-i-refuse-to-send-people-to-jail-for-failure-to-pay-fines/Even the justice department has addressed it: https://www.justice.gov/crt/file/832461/downloadAnd the White House: https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/1215_cea_fine_fee_bail_issue_brief.pdfI have also discussed it previously in this thread and the issues with the cycle of incarceration it creates. I am not sure if you were part of this discussion, but it is a well documents problem within our industry. Specifically this aspect: Show nested quote +The disproportionate impact of these fixed payments on the poor raises concerns not
only about fairness, but also because high monetary sanctions can lead to high levels of debt and even
incarceration for failure to fulfil a payment. In some jurisdictions, approximately 20 percent of all jail inmates
were incarcerated for failure to pay criminal justice debts. Do you dispute that this is going on or that incarceration is happening not because of the crime itself, but by setting offenders up for failure by hitting them with fines they will never be able to pay? Do you not see that as a problem? Also, it should note that once the person is released from jail, they normally are put on probation. Probation also has fines and costs associated with it, which the defendant likely won't be able to pay upon release.
I actually do see that as a big problem. 20% is higher than I would have predicted (although that stat isn't nationwide, and doesn't include prisons, only jails which are much different). Still, if you take that 20%, add it to the 20% of non-violent drug offenders you have 40%. We are still over 3x Canada's incarceration rate.
Its not just the system, its that some crimes: violent crimes, sexually offensive crimes, property crimes, and others; the bar for them is set at a point that ensnares a lot of the American population, while similar laws don't ensnare nearly as many Canadians. I mean, Canada has drug laws, maybe they are 5-10 years ahead of us on Marijuana. Those minor changes aren't closing the gap.
|
On May 21 2016 02:27 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
So perhaps you're thinking we have an over incarceration of petty criminals and an underincarceration of more serious offenders? It depends. Theft isn't a petty crime, nor is destruction of private property. Nor is distribution of drugs etc. Not paying a parking ticket on time and then having to pay more and more and more because of it is a little suspect. Again: I prefer how Singapore handles things than I do Portugal. Both are successful in their own way despite vastly different approaches. However: In the USA's case I think you'd need to go the Portugal route first to avoid open murder of a large swath of people because you know.. genocide is kind of a dick move, and then implement Singapore rules from the top with an address to the nation and a leniency period so that everyone knows what's going to go down if you're still a drug offender in X years. It would cut the cartel business drastically and give many of the most impoverished communities a better hope for the future imo. If USA goes the route of Portugal, I see them becoming socialist more akin to Venezuela. Always trying to do too much for its populace to keep them happy to keep getting votes while the debt just grows and grows and grows. People simply trying to get the most out of the country, rather than trying to contribute the most to it. This of course, will come after The Great Wall of Trump is built.
In Singapore, there is a mandatory death sentence if you carry more than 200 grams of cannabis resin.
200 grams of cannabis
And you like how they handle drugs? That's pretty fucking disturbing.
|
On May 21 2016 02:41 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 02:09 Plansix wrote:On May 21 2016 01:56 cLutZ wrote:On May 21 2016 01:51 Plansix wrote:On May 21 2016 01:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 21 2016 01:25 cLutZ wrote:I do think that something lost is the US incarceration rate is that while I would say we need to reduce the number of crimes, particularly non-violent crimes, that exist, they aren't filling our jails as one would say. Such as this Stat from Biff: On May 20 2016 20:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I find absolutely fascinating that anyone could even talk about under incarceration in the US, while the country has such a gigantic problem with over incarceration. The statistics in the US are absolutely mad:
698 people in jail for 100K citizen.
In Norway where I live it's 71
In Germany 78
In France 100
In Canada 106 E ven if you eliminate the 46% of offenses labeled "drug offenses" you see that our stats would be much higher, which means we are NOT comparable to those countries. Others even argue that non-violent possession is closer to only 20% of the prison population. Which makes the difference all the more stark. What is actually going on in America is, for lack of a batter phrase, a lack of social cohesion, which diversity is thought to contribute to (although it has other benefits) not unlike the one that France, Germany, and Norway are epically mishandling in the Arab refugee crises. And, a large part of our prison population is, IMO caused by the attempt to impose standards that, while often aspirational, are not going to work out well for large swaths of the population; whether they are inner city minorities, or the Budnys. Those statistics don't even count the people who did something like steal a plant car or other similar crimes and then 3 years later on probation (while they are rebuilding their lives) get popped for a hot UA (usually for cannabis) and go back to prison because of cannabis but get's documented as serving time for the stolen car. Let us not forget being thrown in jail for failing to pay court fees and fines. Because debtors prison is back in style. I mean, neither of those are substantive responses to a statistics filled post. Those things do happen, but are more likely than not to be fairly insignificant portions of the population. Particularly when people say we should be incarcerating about 1/6 the number of people we do. It is a very well reported on issue in the poverty stricken areas of the country. http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/02/09/384968360/jail-time-for-unpaid-court-fines-and-fees-can-create-cycle-of-povertyhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/04/08/why-i-refuse-to-send-people-to-jail-for-failure-to-pay-fines/Even the justice department has addressed it: https://www.justice.gov/crt/file/832461/downloadAnd the White House: https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/1215_cea_fine_fee_bail_issue_brief.pdfI have also discussed it previously in this thread and the issues with the cycle of incarceration it creates. I am not sure if you were part of this discussion, but it is a well documents problem within our industry. Specifically this aspect: The disproportionate impact of these fixed payments on the poor raises concerns not
only about fairness, but also because high monetary sanctions can lead to high levels of debt and even
incarceration for failure to fulfil a payment. In some jurisdictions, approximately 20 percent of all jail inmates
were incarcerated for failure to pay criminal justice debts. Do you dispute that this is going on or that incarceration is happening not because of the crime itself, but by setting offenders up for failure by hitting them with fines they will never be able to pay? Do you not see that as a problem? Also, it should note that once the person is released from jail, they normally are put on probation. Probation also has fines and costs associated with it, which the defendant likely won't be able to pay upon release. I actually do see that as a big problem. 20% is higher than I would have predicted (although that stat isn't nationwide, and doesn't include prisons, only jails which are much different). Still, if you take that 20%, add it to the 20% of non-violent drug offenders you have 40%. We are still over 3x Canada's incarceration rate. Its not just the system, its that some crimes: violent crimes, sexually offensive crimes, property crimes, and others; the bar for them is set at a point that ensnares a lot of the American population, while similar laws don't ensnare nearly as many Canadians. I mean, Canada has drug laws, maybe they are 5-10 years ahead of us on Marijuana. Those minor changes aren't closing the gap.
While not complete, I'd argue that going from ~6x to ~3x, is by definition "closing the gap".
On May 21 2016 02:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 02:27 SK.Testie wrote:On May 21 2016 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
So perhaps you're thinking we have an over incarceration of petty criminals and an underincarceration of more serious offenders? It depends. Theft isn't a petty crime, nor is destruction of private property. Nor is distribution of drugs etc. Not paying a parking ticket on time and then having to pay more and more and more because of it is a little suspect. Again: I prefer how Singapore handles things than I do Portugal. Both are successful in their own way despite vastly different approaches. However: In the USA's case I think you'd need to go the Portugal route first to avoid open murder of a large swath of people because you know.. genocide is kind of a dick move, and then implement Singapore rules from the top with an address to the nation and a leniency period so that everyone knows what's going to go down if you're still a drug offender in X years. It would cut the cartel business drastically and give many of the most impoverished communities a better hope for the future imo. If USA goes the route of Portugal, I see them becoming socialist more akin to Venezuela. Always trying to do too much for its populace to keep them happy to keep getting votes while the debt just grows and grows and grows. People simply trying to get the most out of the country, rather than trying to contribute the most to it. This of course, will come after The Great Wall of Trump is built. In Singapore, there is a mandatory death sentence if you carry more than 200 grams of cannabis resin. 200 grams of cannabisAnd you like how they handle drugs? That's pretty fucking disturbing.
Holy crap, I'd know several people that would have been on death row if that was the case. They all are drug free (not even alcohol) with families and stable jobs though. People seem to not realize successful drug dealers (often thought of as traffickers) are generally just savvy business minded people who operate in a different marketplace.
I think it's reasonable to suggest that had cannabis been the drug of choice for white Europeans instead of alcohol we'd live in a much better country, sorry NASCAR fans but that would probably be gone too.
|
On May 21 2016 02:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 02:27 SK.Testie wrote:On May 21 2016 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
So perhaps you're thinking we have an over incarceration of petty criminals and an underincarceration of more serious offenders? It depends. Theft isn't a petty crime, nor is destruction of private property. Nor is distribution of drugs etc. Not paying a parking ticket on time and then having to pay more and more and more because of it is a little suspect. Again: I prefer how Singapore handles things than I do Portugal. Both are successful in their own way despite vastly different approaches. However: In the USA's case I think you'd need to go the Portugal route first to avoid open murder of a large swath of people because you know.. genocide is kind of a dick move, and then implement Singapore rules from the top with an address to the nation and a leniency period so that everyone knows what's going to go down if you're still a drug offender in X years. It would cut the cartel business drastically and give many of the most impoverished communities a better hope for the future imo. If USA goes the route of Portugal, I see them becoming socialist more akin to Venezuela. Always trying to do too much for its populace to keep them happy to keep getting votes while the debt just grows and grows and grows. People simply trying to get the most out of the country, rather than trying to contribute the most to it. This of course, will come after The Great Wall of Trump is built. In Singapore, there is a mandatory death sentence if you carry more than 200 grams of cannabis resin. 200 grams of cannabisAnd you like how they handle drugs? That's pretty fucking disturbing.
Look at the number of executions they carry out. It's virtually 0 and their crime rate is extremely low. If you extrapolate that to America maybe they might have 50-100 drug executions a year. That's a small price to pay for dealing a major blow to cartels that will kill a much larger % of people than 50-100. It's complex and my solution is not even half baked. But again, I think Singapore is the ideal. It destroys the cartels market in America, cripples gangs and their revenue. It makes sure communities aren't devastated by drugs and shows a true caring for your community and country.
|
On May 21 2016 02:49 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 02:41 cLutZ wrote:On May 21 2016 02:09 Plansix wrote:On May 21 2016 01:56 cLutZ wrote:On May 21 2016 01:51 Plansix wrote:On May 21 2016 01:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 21 2016 01:25 cLutZ wrote:I do think that something lost is the US incarceration rate is that while I would say we need to reduce the number of crimes, particularly non-violent crimes, that exist, they aren't filling our jails as one would say. Such as this Stat from Biff: On May 20 2016 20:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I find absolutely fascinating that anyone could even talk about under incarceration in the US, while the country has such a gigantic problem with over incarceration. The statistics in the US are absolutely mad:
698 people in jail for 100K citizen.
In Norway where I live it's 71
In Germany 78
In France 100
In Canada 106 E ven if you eliminate the 46% of offenses labeled "drug offenses" you see that our stats would be much higher, which means we are NOT comparable to those countries. Others even argue that non-violent possession is closer to only 20% of the prison population. Which makes the difference all the more stark. What is actually going on in America is, for lack of a batter phrase, a lack of social cohesion, which diversity is thought to contribute to (although it has other benefits) not unlike the one that France, Germany, and Norway are epically mishandling in the Arab refugee crises. And, a large part of our prison population is, IMO caused by the attempt to impose standards that, while often aspirational, are not going to work out well for large swaths of the population; whether they are inner city minorities, or the Budnys. Those statistics don't even count the people who did something like steal a plant car or other similar crimes and then 3 years later on probation (while they are rebuilding their lives) get popped for a hot UA (usually for cannabis) and go back to prison because of cannabis but get's documented as serving time for the stolen car. Let us not forget being thrown in jail for failing to pay court fees and fines. Because debtors prison is back in style. I mean, neither of those are substantive responses to a statistics filled post. Those things do happen, but are more likely than not to be fairly insignificant portions of the population. Particularly when people say we should be incarcerating about 1/6 the number of people we do. It is a very well reported on issue in the poverty stricken areas of the country. http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/02/09/384968360/jail-time-for-unpaid-court-fines-and-fees-can-create-cycle-of-povertyhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/04/08/why-i-refuse-to-send-people-to-jail-for-failure-to-pay-fines/Even the justice department has addressed it: https://www.justice.gov/crt/file/832461/downloadAnd the White House: https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/1215_cea_fine_fee_bail_issue_brief.pdfI have also discussed it previously in this thread and the issues with the cycle of incarceration it creates. I am not sure if you were part of this discussion, but it is a well documents problem within our industry. Specifically this aspect: The disproportionate impact of these fixed payments on the poor raises concerns not
only about fairness, but also because high monetary sanctions can lead to high levels of debt and even
incarceration for failure to fulfil a payment. In some jurisdictions, approximately 20 percent of all jail inmates
were incarcerated for failure to pay criminal justice debts. Do you dispute that this is going on or that incarceration is happening not because of the crime itself, but by setting offenders up for failure by hitting them with fines they will never be able to pay? Do you not see that as a problem? Also, it should note that once the person is released from jail, they normally are put on probation. Probation also has fines and costs associated with it, which the defendant likely won't be able to pay upon release. I actually do see that as a big problem. 20% is higher than I would have predicted (although that stat isn't nationwide, and doesn't include prisons, only jails which are much different). Still, if you take that 20%, add it to the 20% of non-violent drug offenders you have 40%. We are still over 3x Canada's incarceration rate. Its not just the system, its that some crimes: violent crimes, sexually offensive crimes, property crimes, and others; the bar for them is set at a point that ensnares a lot of the American population, while similar laws don't ensnare nearly as many Canadians. I mean, Canada has drug laws, maybe they are 5-10 years ahead of us on Marijuana. Those minor changes aren't closing the gap. While not complete, I'd argue that going from ~6x to ~3x, is by definition "closing the gap".
Sure. And I think there are some really good steps to take. Legal Marijuana, and decriminalizing the remaining illicit substances will help, it will make meaningful changes for many people. But I think focusing on those sorts of things is willfully blinding yourself to the things that actually drive the difference in America's incarceration rate, and really why America is so different from the majority of other First World Countries.
|
On May 21 2016 02:57 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 02:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 21 2016 02:27 SK.Testie wrote:On May 21 2016 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
So perhaps you're thinking we have an over incarceration of petty criminals and an underincarceration of more serious offenders? It depends. Theft isn't a petty crime, nor is destruction of private property. Nor is distribution of drugs etc. Not paying a parking ticket on time and then having to pay more and more and more because of it is a little suspect. Again: I prefer how Singapore handles things than I do Portugal. Both are successful in their own way despite vastly different approaches. However: In the USA's case I think you'd need to go the Portugal route first to avoid open murder of a large swath of people because you know.. genocide is kind of a dick move, and then implement Singapore rules from the top with an address to the nation and a leniency period so that everyone knows what's going to go down if you're still a drug offender in X years. It would cut the cartel business drastically and give many of the most impoverished communities a better hope for the future imo. If USA goes the route of Portugal, I see them becoming socialist more akin to Venezuela. Always trying to do too much for its populace to keep them happy to keep getting votes while the debt just grows and grows and grows. People simply trying to get the most out of the country, rather than trying to contribute the most to it. This of course, will come after The Great Wall of Trump is built. In Singapore, there is a mandatory death sentence if you carry more than 200 grams of cannabis resin. 200 grams of cannabisAnd you like how they handle drugs? That's pretty fucking disturbing. Look at the number of executions they carry out. It's virtually 0 and their crime rate is extremely low. Singapore is the ideal. It destroys the cartels market in America, cripples gangs and their revenue. It makes sure communities aren't devastated by drugs and shows a true caring for your community and country.
You honestly think that's because no one has 200 grams of cannabis (hashish more specifically)?
Not to mention that's just a distraction, since the drug of choice is actually opium in Singapore and the laws reflect that. Or they (law makers) are just totally clueless about drugs, which is totally possible if they are anything like ours.
Drug laws aren't to stop the trafficking of drugs, they are used to control who gets to, and for leverage in getting a cut of the profits.
|
On May 21 2016 01:25 cLutZ wrote:What is actually going on in America is, for lack of a batter phrase, a lack of social cohesion, which diversity is thought to contribute to (although it has other benefits) not unlike the one that France, Germany, and Norway are epically mishandling in the Arab refugee crises. And, a large part of our prison population is, IMO caused by the attempt to impose standards that, while often aspirational, are not going to work out well for large swaths of the population; whether they are inner city minorities, or the Budnys.
I think you are overestimating the cultural and ethnical diversity on the USA against other western countries. Belgium or Switzerland are more diverse ethnically and culturally speaking than the US, France and Spain are above or on par with it.
That kind of point is one i think you could do for plenty African countries, but not for the US. The biggest difference that the US has with those countries is it's economic inequality, not the diversity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
