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On April 29 2016 05:06 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 04:52 LegalLord wrote:
Kasich is very far from a moderate. He just doesn't stand out so people think of him as "generic Republican candidate." If he weren't 1 for 41 no one would think him moderate. Brings up an interesting question: Looking at the current state of legality in our country, is supporting gay marriage a moderate position now?
http://www.pewresearch.org/data-trend/domestic-issues/attitudes-on-gay-marriage/
57% of the country is for it, so I would say it is not longer a "far left" opinion.
On April 29 2016 05:16 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 05:06 Mohdoo wrote:On April 29 2016 04:52 LegalLord wrote:
Kasich is very far from a moderate. He just doesn't stand out so people think of him as "generic Republican candidate." If he weren't 1 for 41 no one would think him moderate. Brings up an interesting question: Looking at the current state of legality in our country, is supporting gay marriage a moderate position now? Seems so. Somewhat related: did the approach of the "gay pride" movement, to try to garner media attention through provocative actions, prove effective or was it just about time for that movement to take off? I know I personally was really annoyed by that movement and similar ones (e.g. BLM protesters interrupting events).
The purpose of those protests is to annoy and irritate. Just like the ones during the civil rights movement, which also blocked traffic and disrupted events.
And as someone who grew up near the gay pride center of my state, those parades were annoying to work around. But I can’t really fault people for holding them since they are pushing for rights I got by default.
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On April 29 2016 05:16 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 05:06 Mohdoo wrote:On April 29 2016 04:52 LegalLord wrote:
Kasich is very far from a moderate. He just doesn't stand out so people think of him as "generic Republican candidate." If he weren't 1 for 41 no one would think him moderate. Brings up an interesting question: Looking at the current state of legality in our country, is supporting gay marriage a moderate position now? Seems so. Somewhat related: did the approach of the "gay pride" movement, to try to garner media attention through provocative actions, prove effective or was it just about time for that movement to take off? I know I personally was really annoyed by that movement and similar ones (e.g. BLM protesters interrupting events).
I think gay pride was about as useless as useless gets on a legal basis. But I think it makes them feel like they are in a community and not just outcasts, so that was good. Interesting point because I think BLM could learn a lot from the gay rights movement.
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Thought it was funny.
Slavoj Žižek: 'Trump is really a centrist liberal'
[...]“Read Trump closely – it is difficult to do, I know – and if you extract his total racist and sexist stupidities, you will see that here and there, where he makes a complete proposal, they’re usually not so bad,” said Žižek. “He said he will not totally dismantle universal healthcare, raise the minimum wage, and so on.”
“Trump is a paradox: he is really a centrist liberal, and maybe even in his economic policies closer to the Democrats, and he desperately tries to mask this. So the function of all of these dirty jokes and stupidities is to cover up that he is really a pretty ordinary, centrist politician.”[...]
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/28/slavoj-zizek-donald-trump-is-really-a-centrist-liberal?CMP=fb_gu
I can't take Zizek seriously tho.
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On April 29 2016 05:16 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 05:06 Mohdoo wrote:On April 29 2016 04:52 LegalLord wrote:
Kasich is very far from a moderate. He just doesn't stand out so people think of him as "generic Republican candidate." If he weren't 1 for 41 no one would think him moderate. Brings up an interesting question: Looking at the current state of legality in our country, is supporting gay marriage a moderate position now? Seems so. Somewhat related: did the approach of the "gay pride" movement, to try to garner media attention through provocative actions, prove effective or was it just about time for that movement to take off? I know I personally was really annoyed by that movement and similar ones (e.g. BLM protesters interrupting events).
Personally annoyed. I switched my stance on gay marriage after meeting actual gay people, among other things. Interrupting traffic would make me less sympathetic to the cause. I get angry easily when stuck in traffic.
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On April 29 2016 05:43 WhiteDog wrote:Thought it was funny. Show nested quote +Slavoj Žižek: 'Trump is really a centrist liberal'
[...]“Read Trump closely – it is difficult to do, I know – and if you extract his total racist and sexist stupidities, you will see that here and there, where he makes a complete proposal, they’re usually not so bad,” said Žižek. “He said he will not totally dismantle universal healthcare, raise the minimum wage, and so on.”
“Trump is a paradox: he is really a centrist liberal, and maybe even in his economic policies closer to the Democrats, and he desperately tries to mask this. So the function of all of these dirty jokes and stupidities is to cover up that he is really a pretty ordinary, centrist politician.”[...] http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/28/slavoj-zizek-donald-trump-is-really-a-centrist-liberal?CMP=fb_guI can't take Zizek seriously tho.
You can laugh but he is more or less right.
Just look at Trumps stance before his run. Either he has dramatically changes his personal beliefs in recent times or he is faking a lot of his Republican positions.
The problem is that we don't know what Trump would be like in this white house. Would he revert to his more central democratic ways once elected or does he keep going full tilt crazy Republican? I don't know and I don't think he would be a decent president regardless of which way he would go.
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On April 29 2016 05:43 WhiteDog wrote:Thought it was funny. Show nested quote +Slavoj Žižek: 'Trump is really a centrist liberal'
[...]“Read Trump closely – it is difficult to do, I know – and if you extract his total racist and sexist stupidities, you will see that here and there, where he makes a complete proposal, they’re usually not so bad,” said Žižek. “He said he will not totally dismantle universal healthcare, raise the minimum wage, and so on.”
“Trump is a paradox: he is really a centrist liberal, and maybe even in his economic policies closer to the Democrats, and he desperately tries to mask this. So the function of all of these dirty jokes and stupidities is to cover up that he is really a pretty ordinary, centrist politician.”[...] http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/28/slavoj-zizek-donald-trump-is-really-a-centrist-liberal?CMP=fb_guI can't take Zizek seriously tho.
http://existentialcomics.com/comic/123
He is correct, however.
Much as I would be suspect of Slate in general, they mostly summed up my feelings on the Trump "speech".
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2016/04/donald_trump_s_foreign_policy_speech_was_an_incoherent_mess.html
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On April 29 2016 05:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 05:43 WhiteDog wrote:Thought it was funny. Slavoj Žižek: 'Trump is really a centrist liberal'
[...]“Read Trump closely – it is difficult to do, I know – and if you extract his total racist and sexist stupidities, you will see that here and there, where he makes a complete proposal, they’re usually not so bad,” said Žižek. “He said he will not totally dismantle universal healthcare, raise the minimum wage, and so on.”
“Trump is a paradox: he is really a centrist liberal, and maybe even in his economic policies closer to the Democrats, and he desperately tries to mask this. So the function of all of these dirty jokes and stupidities is to cover up that he is really a pretty ordinary, centrist politician.”[...] http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/28/slavoj-zizek-donald-trump-is-really-a-centrist-liberal?CMP=fb_guI can't take Zizek seriously tho. You can laugh but he is more or less right. Just look at Trumps stance before his run. Either he has dramatically changes his personal beliefs in recent times or he is faking a lot of his Republican positions. The problem is that we don't know what Trump would be like in this white house. Would he revert to his more central democratic ways once elected or does he keep going full tilt crazy Republican? I don't know and I don't think he would be a decent president regardless of which way he would go.
He'll definitely be one of the oldest presidents if he does get nominated, along side with Reagan.
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Did the Dennis Hastert case and sentencing get talked about yesterday here? I don't always read the entire thread, and don't want to rehash it if I missed it, but if it hasn't been covered I wanna at least link to an article.
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On April 29 2016 05:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 05:43 WhiteDog wrote:Thought it was funny. Slavoj Žižek: 'Trump is really a centrist liberal'
[...]“Read Trump closely – it is difficult to do, I know – and if you extract his total racist and sexist stupidities, you will see that here and there, where he makes a complete proposal, they’re usually not so bad,” said Žižek. “He said he will not totally dismantle universal healthcare, raise the minimum wage, and so on.”
“Trump is a paradox: he is really a centrist liberal, and maybe even in his economic policies closer to the Democrats, and he desperately tries to mask this. So the function of all of these dirty jokes and stupidities is to cover up that he is really a pretty ordinary, centrist politician.”[...] http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/28/slavoj-zizek-donald-trump-is-really-a-centrist-liberal?CMP=fb_guI can't take Zizek seriously tho. You can laugh but he is more or less right. Just look at Trumps stance before his run. Either he has dramatically changes his personal beliefs in recent times or he is faking a lot of his Republican positions. The problem is that we don't know what Trump would be like in this white house. Would he revert to his more central democratic ways once elected or does he keep going full tilt crazy Republican? I don't know and I don't think he would be a decent president regardless of which way he would go.
I think he would mostly stick to his persona, talk big, but more presidential. I think his presidency will accomplish a lot of really liberal things with entirely conservative justifications. I think he would push for single payer as a way to cut waste and save money. Everything will have a hugely conservative justification, while plain as day being a liberal agenda, IMO.
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I strongly suspect that many (if not most) democrats will be pleasantly surprised with a President Trump.
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On April 29 2016 06:20 xDaunt wrote:
I strongly suspect that many (if not most) democrats will be pleasantly surprised with a President Trump.
You are still way too naive, it's never about what you do, it's about how you present it. Trump is not young enough, not friendly enough, not feminine enough, he doesn't say "I'm a feminist", a la Justin Trudeau, enough.
The actual policies ? Yeah who cares ...
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On April 29 2016 06:25 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:20 xDaunt wrote:
I strongly suspect that many (if not most) democrats will be pleasantly surprised with a President Trump. You are still way too naive, it's never about what you do, it's about how you present it. Trump is not young enough, not friendly enough, not feminine enough, he doesn't say "I'm a feminist", a la Justin Trudeau, enough. The actual policies ? Yeah who cares ...
I mean, the actual policies Trump has posted on his own site are pretty incoherent messes that contradict a lot of what he's said on the trail (and he completely forgot about some of them based on a couple of debate performances). So it's hard to judge him by those.
The main way to be satisfied with Trump on the left is to imagine he's just an expert liar and manipulator. Which I guess could be useful?
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On April 29 2016 06:31 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:25 WhiteDog wrote:On April 29 2016 06:20 xDaunt wrote:
I strongly suspect that many (if not most) democrats will be pleasantly surprised with a President Trump. You are still way too naive, it's never about what you do, it's about how you present it. Trump is not young enough, not friendly enough, not feminine enough, he doesn't say "I'm a feminist", a la Justin Trudeau, enough. The actual policies ? Yeah who cares ... I mean, the actual policies Trump has posted on his own site are pretty incoherent messes that contradict a lot of what he's said on the trail. So it's hard to judge him by those.
Yeah, I was joking. The I'm a feminist speech just shocked me so much I've had to talk about it.
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On April 29 2016 06:20 xDaunt wrote:
I strongly suspect that many (if not most) democrats will be pleasantly surprised with a President Trump.
After the caricature that would be built in a general election match up, I don't think this is as wildly preposterous as it sounds.
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On April 29 2016 06:25 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:20 xDaunt wrote:
I strongly suspect that many (if not most) democrats will be pleasantly surprised with a President Trump. You are still way too naive, it's never about what you do, it's about how you present it. Trump is not young enough, not friendly enough, not feminine enough, he doesn't say "I'm a feminist", a la Justin Trudeau, enough. The actual policies ? Yeah who cares ...
Pfff, everyone is gonna feel like a winner with a President Trump.
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On April 29 2016 06:38 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:25 WhiteDog wrote:On April 29 2016 06:20 xDaunt wrote:
I strongly suspect that many (if not most) democrats will be pleasantly surprised with a President Trump. You are still way too naive, it's never about what you do, it's about how you present it. Trump is not young enough, not friendly enough, not feminine enough, he doesn't say "I'm a feminist", a la Justin Trudeau, enough. The actual policies ? Yeah who cares ... Pfff, everyone is gonna feel like a winner with a President Trump.
If he is elected, will you share with us a picture of you with a Trump T-shirt dancing in the street ?
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On April 29 2016 06:31 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:25 WhiteDog wrote:On April 29 2016 06:20 xDaunt wrote:
I strongly suspect that many (if not most) democrats will be pleasantly surprised with a President Trump. You are still way too naive, it's never about what you do, it's about how you present it. Trump is not young enough, not friendly enough, not feminine enough, he doesn't say "I'm a feminist", a la Justin Trudeau, enough. The actual policies ? Yeah who cares ... I mean, the actual policies Trump has posted on his own site are pretty incoherent messes that contradict a lot of what he's said on the trail (and he completely forgot about some of them based on a couple of debate performances). So it's hard to judge him by those.
What would be some examples of that?
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On April 29 2016 04:24 TheTenthDoc wrote:
The biggest disqualifier for Trump in everyone's eyes should be his relentless lying and completely inane and stupid policy proposals, as well as his demonstrable inability to keep his own platform and ideas consistent. He is just incompetent as a policymaker and leader.
Letting him derail the conversation into racism, sexism, and whatever is exactly what his strategy is, because people will argue about what constitutes either of those things until the cows come home, and every time you call someone a racist, sexist, or bigot the Republican party loves them more because it means they must be fighting PC culture and "telling it how it is."*
*and sometimes people are in fact doing that. I don't think a lot of the time Trump is though
This this this. Trump is running Gish Gallop on the merits but his wretched bigoted statements keep his ignorance out of the news cycles. The focus should be on his endless, day by day contradictions; not his hateful bigotry. You can't even argue against any of Trump's positions without defining a time period in which he held them. Abortion, wars, taxes, whatever; he runs back on each position as soon as you start beating him on the merits (see, any interviewer that asks him followup questions).
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The only thing that would make me happy about a Trump presidency is that it guarantees a 2020 democratic victory. And with changing demographics and ideologies, by that point the Republicans may be incapable of ever winning it back.
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On April 29 2016 06:41 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:31 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 29 2016 06:25 WhiteDog wrote:On April 29 2016 06:20 xDaunt wrote:
I strongly suspect that many (if not most) democrats will be pleasantly surprised with a President Trump. You are still way too naive, it's never about what you do, it's about how you present it. Trump is not young enough, not friendly enough, not feminine enough, he doesn't say "I'm a feminist", a la Justin Trudeau, enough. The actual policies ? Yeah who cares ... I mean, the actual policies Trump has posted on his own site are pretty incoherent messes that contradict a lot of what he's said on the trail (and he completely forgot about some of them based on a couple of debate performances). So it's hard to judge him by those. What would be some examples of that?
4 abortion positions in 4 days.
He committed to 20-30k ground troops during a debate to fight ISIS, now he backs isolationism or a secret strategy (maybe, who knows).
He claims he will raise taxes on the rich, but his tax plan is the largest upper class tax cut ever put to paper.
Can you even write down a single version of his Muslim policy? I think it is a registry and an entry ban right now, but it moves all over the place.
And to top it all off, his advisers have repeatedly told Republican insiders that Trump is playing a role and his actual positions are subject to negotiation.
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EPT
