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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
corumjhaelen
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
France6884 Posts
April 11 2016 16:03 GMT
#71681
Socialism in general certainly doesn't reject private property, it calls for the common ownership of the means of production. Anyway your article is full of very classic stupid arguments or bad in their form, but I guess if you posted it there's not much point discussing it in the first place.
‎numquam se plus agere quam nihil cum ageret, numquam minus solum esse quam cum solus esset
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21691 Posts
April 11 2016 16:08 GMT
#71682
On April 12 2016 01:01 ShoCkeyy wrote:
The rigging talk start around 2:50 - Delegates and Super Delegates are a terrible system..

Yes it is, it was functional at the time when distance was a serious concern but sadly America has a tendency to get overly attached to 'the old ways' which hampers any attempt at reforming the process.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 11 2016 16:11 GMT
#71683
The Spanish-language voter guides from Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach's office include two errors about registering to vote in the state, while the English guides do not include the same errors.

The Spanish-language guides said that voters could register up to 15 days before the election, while the English version included the correct deadline, 21 days before the election, as the Daily Kos flagged last week. And while the English guides told voters they could use their passport as a photo ID, the guides in Spanish did not include a passport in the list.

Kobach is notorious for his push to enact strict voter ID laws in the state, impose other voting restrictions, and pursue criminal prosecutions of alleged voting fraud. Kansas faces several challenges to its law requiring proof of citizenship for residents to register to vote.

Craig McCullah, the official in charge of publications for the Kansas secretary of state, claimed responsibility and said that the office would correct the errors, according to the Kansas City Star.

"It was an administrative error that I am diligently working to fix," he said.

McCullah said that the online version of the guide has already been corrected and that they are working to print corrected guides as well.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 11 2016 16:15 GMT
#71684
On April 12 2016 01:03 corumjhaelen wrote:
Socialism in general certainly doesn't reject private property, it calls for the common ownership of the means of production. Anyway your article is full of very classic stupid arguments or bad in their form, but I guess if you posted it there's not much point discussing it in the first place.


Something something Marx abolition of private property:


In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.
Source


Look, if you want to have a discussion about the merits of socialism, you can do that by showing faults with the arguments themselves, but if your only aim is to call me "stupid" then it just seems quite pointless.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
corumjhaelen
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
France6884 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 16:20:19
April 11 2016 16:19 GMT
#71685
Note "communist" in the title and "in this sense" referencing to (the quite vague) "modern bourgeois private property".
It is quite pointless, that's why I won't go deeper.
‎numquam se plus agere quam nihil cum ageret, numquam minus solum esse quam cum solus esset
corumjhaelen
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
France6884 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 16:23:48
April 11 2016 16:19 GMT
#71686
Double post sorry
Edit : I'll add that discussing socialism in the abstract in the US politics megathread is quite pointless because socialism is likely to have little to do with US politics during our lifetime.
‎numquam se plus agere quam nihil cum ageret, numquam minus solum esse quam cum solus esset
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
April 11 2016 16:23 GMT
#71687
In general accepting economic theory that is over 100 years old without revision is a recipe for disaster, regardless of which one it is. Citing Marx directly is a pretty bad way to prove a point about what a system has to be, same with citing Smith or Keynes. They had good ideas but they were each wrong about a great many things. Doesn't mean they didn't have a point.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
FiWiFaKi
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada9859 Posts
April 11 2016 16:23 GMT
#71688
On April 12 2016 01:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 01:03 corumjhaelen wrote:
Socialism in general certainly doesn't reject private property, it calls for the common ownership of the means of production. Anyway your article is full of very classic stupid arguments or bad in their form, but I guess if you posted it there's not much point discussing it in the first place.


Something something Marx abolition of private property:

Show nested quote +

In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.
Source


Look, if you want to have a discussion about the merits of socialism, you can do that by showing faults with the arguments themselves, but if your only aim is to call me "stupid" then it just seems quite pointless.


I have to disagree with you.

I was just writing my topic, but accidently canceled it, and I don't really want to rewrite it.

Big things to realize is that socialism and communism aren't the same, but their goal is to achieve a common goal.

Socialists recognize the need to incentivize the individual while talking as much of their money as possible for the common good. This incentive is achieved with a high quality of life, and permission to keep some income. In Scandinavian countries, there are a lot of public monopolies, and regulation in every industry.

Socialists see that to create incentive you can't take everything away, as innovation and improvement needs to come from somewhere. The other difference between communism and socialism is a democracy versus what you had in the USSR or China, a group meant to be benevolent dictators, that however doesn't change the end goal of socialism in the two systems.

I think people vastly underestimate how manu of the communist ideals we have in our modern social democracies.
In life, the journey is more satisfying than the destination. || .::Entrepreneurship::. Living a few years of your life like most people won't, so that you can spend the rest of your life like most people can't || Mechanical Engineering & Economics Major
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42716 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 16:29:54
April 11 2016 16:27 GMT
#71689
On April 12 2016 01:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 01:03 corumjhaelen wrote:
Socialism in general certainly doesn't reject private property, it calls for the common ownership of the means of production. Anyway your article is full of very classic stupid arguments or bad in their form, but I guess if you posted it there's not much point discussing it in the first place.


Something something Marx abolition of private property:

Show nested quote +

In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.
Source


Look, if you want to have a discussion about the merits of socialism, you can do that by showing faults with the arguments themselves, but if your only aim is to call me "stupid" then it just seems quite pointless.

Socialism, as the word is used in the west, means worker control of the means of production although historically it has typically meant nationalization of core industries such as mining, steel production, telecoms and railways. It says nothing about private property.

See Clause IV of the 1918 Labour Party Constitution in the UK.
To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.

This was written at the height of socialist revolutionary furvour, in the wake of the Great War, the destruction of aristocratic and noble houses across the world, the expansion of the franchise and the emergence of the first Communist revolution. It represents the high water mark of the socialist ideology in the west and it still only calls for common ownership of the means of production. This was as revolutionary as socialists got. In practice what they actually nationalised represented only about 20% of the economy.
Attlee's government also carried out their manifesto commitment for nationalisation of basic industries and public utilities. The Bank of England and civil aviation were nationalised in 1946. Coal mining, the railways, road haulage, canals and Cable and Wireless were nationalised in 1947, electricity and gas followed in 1948. The steel industry was nationalised in 1951. By 1951 about 20% of the British economy had been taken into public ownership.


Clause IV was subsequently removed by Tony Blair as part of his shift to social justice from socialism.


I understand that for someone growing up under the umbrella of the USSR the meaning of socialism could seem very different. But in order for there to be a common understanding of terms it is necessary for you to understand that socialism has nothing to do with Marxism, Stalinism or private property.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 11 2016 16:30 GMT
#71690
I started off by saying that I don't understand why we're talking about "socialism" in this thread...

I'm afraid I'm only acquainted with socialism as it's written up in its original Marx (communist manifesto and to some extent German Ideology) or it's modern versions like social democratic ideas which are implemented in Scandinavia. But as far as I know, most social democrats reject the term socialism, so I'm quite confused as to what you're actually talking about. Sources and authors would greatly help discussion along.

I do wholeheartedly agree that besides on the level of rhetoric, "socialism" plays no part in US politics (yes, not even with Sanders).
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
April 11 2016 16:33 GMT
#71691
On April 12 2016 01:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 01:03 corumjhaelen wrote:
Socialism in general certainly doesn't reject private property, it calls for the common ownership of the means of production. Anyway your article is full of very classic stupid arguments or bad in their form, but I guess if you posted it there's not much point discussing it in the first place.


Something something Marx abolition of private property:

Show nested quote +

In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.
Source


Look, if you want to have a discussion about the merits of socialism, you can do that by showing faults with the arguments themselves, but if your only aim is to call me "stupid" then it just seems quite pointless.

Socialism =/= communism. Private property can very much work with socialism, you just won't have the liberty to accumulate tons and tons and tons of private property while others have none.
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 11 2016 16:38 GMT
#71692
Kwark your attempt at patronizing me is hilarious in how off mark you are. This might not be obvious, but this isn't the terminology that was used in the USSR. In fact, I've been educated nearly entirely in "the West" as you call it. I think you just don't know your history. Studying socialism in philosophy starts with More and Marx/Engels. I would know because I took those courses in several universities. But I don't need to argue in this way, let's just see what "the West" thinks socialism is. You're from the UK, aren't you. How about we check Encyclopedia Britannica?


Socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members.

This conviction puts socialism in opposition to capitalism, which is based on private ownership of the means of production and allows individual choices in a free market to determine how goods and services are distributed. Socialists complain that capitalism necessarily leads to unfair and exploitative concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of the relative few who emerge victorious from free-market competition—people who then use their wealth and power to reinforce their dominance in society. Because such people are rich, they may choose where and how to live, and their choices in turn limit the options of the poor. As a result, terms such as individual freedom and equality of opportunity may be meaningful for capitalists but can only ring hollow for working people, who must do the capitalists’ bidding if they are to survive. As socialists see it, true freedom and true equality require social control of the resources that provide the basis for prosperity in any society. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels made this point in Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848) when they proclaimed that in a socialist society “the condition for the free development of each is the free development of all.”
Source


Shall I give you more sources? Or will you withdraw your ludicrous and frankly insulting slander.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 16:43:14
April 11 2016 16:41 GMT
#71693
Given that numerous states have implemented broadly socialistic policies (Vermont and Massachusetts immediately come to mind) that are very much a part of political discourse today given Sanders' relative popularity, the idea that socialism ought not be discussed in this thread for lack of relevance is simply incorrect barring a total lack of nuance (which, I may add, is hilariously over represented in this thread). Yes, Socialism is unlikely to take hold in the US relative to an all-encompassing socio-governmental program, but the specific tenets behind particular markets and the propriety of their socialization is not only relevant but very compelling given the trajectory of both state and national government.

"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
corumjhaelen
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
France6884 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 16:43:33
April 11 2016 16:42 GMT
#71694
On April 12 2016 01:41 farvacola wrote:
Given that numerous states have implemented broadly socialistic policies (Vermont and Massachusetts immediately come to mind) that are very much a part of political discourse today given Sanders' relative popularity, the idea that socialism ought not be discussed in this thread for lack of relevance is simply incorrect barring a total lack of nuance. Yes, Socialism is unlikely to take hold in the US relative to an all-encompassing socio-governmental program, but the specific tenets behind particular markets and the propriety of their socialization is not only relevant but very compelling given the trajectory of both state and national government.

I did say "socialism in the abstract" though
Those are probably best discussed with those specific markets in mind.
‎numquam se plus agere quam nihil cum ageret, numquam minus solum esse quam cum solus esset
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42716 Posts
April 11 2016 16:44 GMT
#71695
On April 12 2016 01:38 Ghanburighan wrote:
Kwark your attempt at patronizing me is hilarious in how off mark you are. This might not be obvious, but this isn't the terminology that was used in the USSR. In fact, I've been educated nearly entirely in "the West" as you call it. I think you just don't know your history. Studying socialism in philosophy starts with More and Marx/Engels. I would know because I took those courses in several universities. But I don't need to argue in this way, let's just see what "the West" thinks socialism is. You're from the UK, aren't you. How about we check Encyclopedia Britannica?

Show nested quote +

Socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members.

This conviction puts socialism in opposition to capitalism, which is based on private ownership of the means of production and allows individual choices in a free market to determine how goods and services are distributed. Socialists complain that capitalism necessarily leads to unfair and exploitative concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of the relative few who emerge victorious from free-market competition—people who then use their wealth and power to reinforce their dominance in society. Because such people are rich, they may choose where and how to live, and their choices in turn limit the options of the poor. As a result, terms such as individual freedom and equality of opportunity may be meaningful for capitalists but can only ring hollow for working people, who must do the capitalists’ bidding if they are to survive. As socialists see it, true freedom and true equality require social control of the resources that provide the basis for prosperity in any society. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels made this point in Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848) when they proclaimed that in a socialist society “the condition for the free development of each is the free development of all.”
Source


Shall I give you more sources? Or will you withdraw your ludicrous and frankly insulting slander.

So the British Labour party never met your definition of Socialist?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 11 2016 16:47 GMT
#71696
On April 12 2016 01:44 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 01:38 Ghanburighan wrote:
Kwark your attempt at patronizing me is hilarious in how off mark you are. This might not be obvious, but this isn't the terminology that was used in the USSR. In fact, I've been educated nearly entirely in "the West" as you call it. I think you just don't know your history. Studying socialism in philosophy starts with More and Marx/Engels. I would know because I took those courses in several universities. But I don't need to argue in this way, let's just see what "the West" thinks socialism is. You're from the UK, aren't you. How about we check Encyclopedia Britannica?


Socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members.

This conviction puts socialism in opposition to capitalism, which is based on private ownership of the means of production and allows individual choices in a free market to determine how goods and services are distributed. Socialists complain that capitalism necessarily leads to unfair and exploitative concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of the relative few who emerge victorious from free-market competition—people who then use their wealth and power to reinforce their dominance in society. Because such people are rich, they may choose where and how to live, and their choices in turn limit the options of the poor. As a result, terms such as individual freedom and equality of opportunity may be meaningful for capitalists but can only ring hollow for working people, who must do the capitalists’ bidding if they are to survive. As socialists see it, true freedom and true equality require social control of the resources that provide the basis for prosperity in any society. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels made this point in Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848) when they proclaimed that in a socialist society “the condition for the free development of each is the free development of all.”
Source


Shall I give you more sources? Or will you withdraw your ludicrous and frankly insulting slander.

So the British Labour party never met your definition of Socialist?


Not even under Foot.

Labour quite literally ate up some socialist parties (can't remember their names) but because it encompasses so many different movements it was never socialist.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 11 2016 16:52 GMT
#71697
As the U.S. presidential sweepstakes lurch toward November, a chill is running through the global space community.

Space professionals worldwide remember the upset that followed President Barack Obama’s arrival in the White House in 2009, and they are worried that history will repeat itself when President Clinton, Cruz, Kasich, Sanders or Trump takes over the Oval Office next January. That unease certainly extends into the ninth-floor offices of the NASA administrator, and other headquarters areas where top agency managers have spent the past seven years forging a way forward following the abrupt change in direction codified in the “compromise of 2010” after Obama killed the Constellation Program of exploration vehicles.

Last month, a coalition of more than a dozen academic and industrial organizations launched a call for space-policy continuity into the election, and not just at the presidential level. “We need to continue on a sort of straight-line target,” says former astronaut Sandra Magnus, executive director of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA). “We can’t keep moving left and right, left and right in our industry.”

For now, NASA is entrusting the job of making space-policy stability an election issue to the groups in the coalition and others like them. “To my knowledge we’re not talking to anybody right now,” says Administrator Charles Bolden, who has confined his politicking to selling NASA’s fiscal year 2017 budget request on Capitol Hill. “We’re staying away from campaigns, and no one has reached out to us.”

But by the end of July, when the two major U.S. political parties will have presumably nominated their presidential candidates, NASA and other federal agencies will be required by law to provide transition information “on an equal basis and without regard to political affiliation.” The agency has appointed a senior manager to pull together the briefing books, and Bolden has a clear idea of the message he wants those to convey.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42716 Posts
April 11 2016 16:56 GMT
#71698
On April 12 2016 01:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 01:44 KwarK wrote:
On April 12 2016 01:38 Ghanburighan wrote:
Kwark your attempt at patronizing me is hilarious in how off mark you are. This might not be obvious, but this isn't the terminology that was used in the USSR. In fact, I've been educated nearly entirely in "the West" as you call it. I think you just don't know your history. Studying socialism in philosophy starts with More and Marx/Engels. I would know because I took those courses in several universities. But I don't need to argue in this way, let's just see what "the West" thinks socialism is. You're from the UK, aren't you. How about we check Encyclopedia Britannica?


Socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members.

This conviction puts socialism in opposition to capitalism, which is based on private ownership of the means of production and allows individual choices in a free market to determine how goods and services are distributed. Socialists complain that capitalism necessarily leads to unfair and exploitative concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of the relative few who emerge victorious from free-market competition—people who then use their wealth and power to reinforce their dominance in society. Because such people are rich, they may choose where and how to live, and their choices in turn limit the options of the poor. As a result, terms such as individual freedom and equality of opportunity may be meaningful for capitalists but can only ring hollow for working people, who must do the capitalists’ bidding if they are to survive. As socialists see it, true freedom and true equality require social control of the resources that provide the basis for prosperity in any society. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels made this point in Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848) when they proclaimed that in a socialist society “the condition for the free development of each is the free development of all.”
Source


Shall I give you more sources? Or will you withdraw your ludicrous and frankly insulting slander.

So the British Labour party never met your definition of Socialist?


Not even under Foot.

Labour quite literally ate up some socialist parties (can't remember their names) but because it encompasses so many different movements it was never socialist.

Thus ending this discussion for me. I return to my original assertion, that you're using your own special snowflake meaning of socialist which to you is indistinguishable from Marxism and somehow manages to exclude all the actual socialists.

You can use it if you like but it will make it extremely difficult for you to engage in any discussion. I advise that you work on that.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 11 2016 16:58 GMT
#71699
And you're still patronizing me despite the fact that I demonstrated that I use the terms as they are meant to be used in British English.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 11 2016 17:05 GMT
#71700
Kwark is right and is talking down to you because you have been pretty obtuse during the discussion. You are using your own personal interpretation of socialism and picked a definition that fits your criteria, while ignoring the fact that socialism is an evolving term, like all political and economic systems. It is fine to have your own opinion on defines “pure socialism" in the abstract, but that is all it is.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
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