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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 13:25:08
April 11 2016 13:24 GMT
#71661
On April 11 2016 14:07 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2016 13:11 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I don't really agree with compulsary voting here, it would favour the democrats heavily so it's clear why Obama is talking it up.


I agree with you. My viewpoint is that ID cards should be mandatory, people in prison for 4+ years should not be aloud to vote (unlike in Canada), and ideally, have a 2-4 page paper written at a grade 9 level or lower as well as 10-20 multiple choice questions outlining policies which require to be filled out and 80%+ of them have to be correct in order to vote (all these would be in the paper, and it'd be basic things like which party supports a larger government, which one supports more immigration, gun laws, gay marriage, military spending, current percentage of budget spent on healthcare etc).

The problem nowadays from what I see it is that ID cards can be difficult to get, because these offices that issue non-passport non driver license ID's might only be open every second Wednesday or something absurd. I think the people that care about the future of the country should be the ones that vote, and when things get back for the ones who don't care, they are welcome to vote.

I think that 100% of people voting is a garbage system, because so many people are uneducated and vote based on criteria that has nothing to do with a successful government, and much prefer the technocracy route where educated people vote on issues, while not only to the extent where only engineers, scientists, etc vote. This way you avoid the issues of a centralization of power, and by having ethics an important part of education, these "educated" people voting will make decision for the benefit of society... If they don't, then next election a lot of poor people or whoever else will vote because they are unhappy with the system.

That's my ideal anyway.


you can't test objectively empathy with people that are unlike yourself... all such systems lead to the issue of:

i don't understand their problems so i wont vote on them, but they are excluded from voting so noone cares.. so their lives and interests go to shit.

you can not force people to care for other people than themselfs, so systematic exclusion will leave people behind
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4333 Posts
April 11 2016 13:30 GMT
#71662
On April 11 2016 20:58 Kipsate wrote:
There are more poor people then rich people, yet poor people esp minorities more then often don't vote because they feel disenfranchised with the government and that the government doesn't care for them. You want to introduce a system that increases that even more?

i'd wager voter turnout will go down even more esp if you treat your citizens like idiots. Percentage of richer/educated people who vote comparitively will go up which will lead to even more entrenching of the establishment.

No, it won't work like that.Voter turnout here is so high because you get fined if you don't vote.$80 or something.So turnout will go up, but so will donkey votes.Could be a nice earner though, a stealth tax if you will.Be wary of enforced voting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21694 Posts
April 11 2016 13:56 GMT
#71663
Yeah I'm not a fan of mandatory voting, yes the participation go's up but so will the amount of people ticking random boxes.

I would rather have 40% voting because they care (and therefor most likely being at least somewhat informed) then have 99% vote for whatever.
That's how you get a Trump 2.0 / Camacho into office.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18000 Posts
April 11 2016 14:00 GMT
#71664
Not sure where I stand on mandatory voting. Definitely don't do it like Brazil does, though.

Voting in Brazil is mandatory, but you have to vote where you are registered, and it is quite the bureaucratic hassle to change that. Especially for people like students, who may live in a student flat where they don't want to receive their bank mail, or other official documents, so they leave their registration address with their parents, sometimes on the other end of the country.

In order to then vote, they can request a special exemption, where they then have to prove that they are elsewhere than their home address at the time of voting, or they have to return home to cast their vote. It's either that, or pay a fine. If you are out of the country at time of voting, it gets even more complicated, because you then have to justify your non-voting status a posteriori (with things like boarding passes, bus tickets or hotel receipts), or pay the fine. As long as you don't either vote, justify your non-voting status, or pay the fine, you don't get your "titulo eleitor" updated, and an updated titulo eleitor is required for everything from renewing your passport or drivers license, to starting a new job. And it's not like the fine gets sent to your home address to pay, no, of course not. You have to head over to the local bureaucracy and pay in person (usually with associated lines).

Not only that, but to actually go and vote, there are lines like the ones GH rants about (maybe not quite as awful, but quite significant lines all the same).

As further proof that the Brazilian system is incredibly weird: to ensure Brazilians are sober when they go and vote, shops and bars are not allowed to sell alcohol from midnight (might be earlier on the evening before, I am not 100% certain of the exact details) until when the voting booths close unless you prove you have already voted. This didn't stop Brazilians voting an actual clown (not kidding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiririca) into congress by a landslide.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 11 2016 14:06 GMT
#71665
There was a telling exchange on CNBC’s Squawk Box last month that provided the single best bit of insight into the central conflict that will likely embroil the Republicans when they gather in Cleveland in July. Co-anchor Becky Quick suggested to Republican National Committeeman Curly Haugland that there would be deep anger if the leading vote-and-delegate winner—likely to be Donald Trump--were somehow denied the nomination after failing to get the necessary 1,237 delegates on the first ballot.

Haugland calmly responded: “The media has created the perception that the voters choose the nomination. That's the conflict here." But what about the democratic process? Quick asked. Replied Haugland: “Political parties choose their nominees, not the voters.”

True, it used to be that way. But the problem that the GOP establishment faces is that hasn’t been that way since four decades ago, when the modern era of primaries and caucuses really began and voters took the initiative away from the denizens of the smoke-filled room. And now Republican elders who are desperately trying to derail Trump are openly contemplating going back to the old ways, handing the nomination to someone who never spent a day on the campaign trail, never tried to persuade single voter, and was simply delivered the nomination by an arena full of anonymous delegates. Somehow, the establishment thinks, it can instruct all those millions of Republican voters who came out for Trump and Cruz and Kasich to fall in line behind, say, Speaker Paul Ryan.

This is the nostrum being proposed to save the Republican Party. The greater likelihood is that it will blow the party up, triggering everything from brawls over rules and credentials, to post-convention efforts to launch a third party or write in campaign, to guerrilla wars at the state and local level, with primaries and party purges threatening anyone who embraced the “party will decide!” philosophy.

Why the likelihood of such fury? Because the underlying question the Republicans will face in Cleveland is whether one can really turn back the clock. Now that ordinary Republican voters, like Democrats, have experienced decades of real democracy, what will their reaction be if it’s taken away from them? The polls tell us that Republican voters want no part of such a process. Even in Wisconsin, where GOP voters decisively rejected Trump, exit polls indicated that most Republicans want the nominee to be the one with the plurality of votes.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15690 Posts
April 11 2016 14:08 GMT
#71666
On April 11 2016 23:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
There was a telling exchange on CNBC’s Squawk Box last month that provided the single best bit of insight into the central conflict that will likely embroil the Republicans when they gather in Cleveland in July. Co-anchor Becky Quick suggested to Republican National Committeeman Curly Haugland that there would be deep anger if the leading vote-and-delegate winner—likely to be Donald Trump--were somehow denied the nomination after failing to get the necessary 1,237 delegates on the first ballot.

Haugland calmly responded: “The media has created the perception that the voters choose the nomination. That's the conflict here." But what about the democratic process? Quick asked. Replied Haugland: “Political parties choose their nominees, not the voters.”

True, it used to be that way. But the problem that the GOP establishment faces is that hasn’t been that way since four decades ago, when the modern era of primaries and caucuses really began and voters took the initiative away from the denizens of the smoke-filled room. And now Republican elders who are desperately trying to derail Trump are openly contemplating going back to the old ways, handing the nomination to someone who never spent a day on the campaign trail, never tried to persuade single voter, and was simply delivered the nomination by an arena full of anonymous delegates. Somehow, the establishment thinks, it can instruct all those millions of Republican voters who came out for Trump and Cruz and Kasich to fall in line behind, say, Speaker Paul Ryan.

This is the nostrum being proposed to save the Republican Party. The greater likelihood is that it will blow the party up, triggering everything from brawls over rules and credentials, to post-convention efforts to launch a third party or write in campaign, to guerrilla wars at the state and local level, with primaries and party purges threatening anyone who embraced the “party will decide!” philosophy.

Why the likelihood of such fury? Because the underlying question the Republicans will face in Cleveland is whether one can really turn back the clock. Now that ordinary Republican voters, like Democrats, have experienced decades of real democracy, what will their reaction be if it’s taken away from them? The polls tell us that Republican voters want no part of such a process. Even in Wisconsin, where GOP voters decisively rejected Trump, exit polls indicated that most Republicans want the nominee to be the one with the plurality of votes.


Source


As if people are gonna say "Oh shit, those are the rules? Well now that I know that, I am totally comfortable with these people I hate overriding my vote!"
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 14:40:50
April 11 2016 14:11 GMT
#71667
mandatory voting is good in medium term theory. the factors that lead to its failings can realistically be improved to realize the gains.



education is not really the problem it is rather the high power of short term focused, antagonism based politics due to resentment and lack of equity in the political and economic system. without solving the various social problems that is fact of life for people the quality of politics will not change. it is not that certain groups are unworthy or uneducated to vote, it is that people are in unhealthy dynamics that reflect broader social ills.

it is important to keep sight on what is possible and whats going to happen, but this is also independent to aspirational goals, or at least the awareness of what is lost to current realities. this democratic deficit is one of these losses that one should feel bad about and try to change, just like some of bernie's well meaning goals.

even fairly informed people vote through representation of politicians. there is an overconfidence in informedness of current voters. the potential for demagoguery etc would increase with mandatory voting but not a unique situation for nonvoters by any means. the same media etc structures keep the abuse in check (or not as shown by trump and sanders currently) as they do currently. i dont see a drastic worsening on the truthiness side of the tradeoff, but there will be large gain in representation and trust by less involved voters
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28673 Posts
April 11 2016 14:14 GMT
#71668
Not a fan of mandatory voting - a bigger fan of that than having 'knowledge tests' though. Most facts are not static (certainly not ones that are politically relevant), what constitutes knowledge is largely disputable, and thus what would be defined as knowledge would be defined by the current holders of power. Thus knowledge tests to me largely seem like an instrument for maintaining status quo, and a possible tool for manipulating elections. (For example, test answers of 1000 people, quiz them on how they're going to vote as well, set percentage of correct answers required at the level that best corresponds with how your party will do).

I think having strong focus on civic education at all levels of the school system, stressing the importance of contributing to the political process, having actual student democracy, and strong public channels for education with non-partisan oversight and mechanisms in place for ensuring that the oversight remains non-partisan are all important, and that 100% voter turnout is an ideal, but we must also accept that some people just don't want to vote, and we also must accept their reasons for feeling that way.
Moderator
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
April 11 2016 14:25 GMT
#71669
Like oneofthem suggests, the idea that the active voting population is categorically better informed than those disinclined to vote deserves some scrutiny. Disillusionment with the process that could be overcome through some kind of incentive-based or mandatory voting scheme is definitely something those interested in voting rights should be wrestling with, not this bullshit "everyone needs ID's" nonsense that is literally a cover for preventing poor people in states with inadequate licensure systems from voting.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11519 Posts
April 11 2016 14:26 GMT
#71670
But if you want mandatory voting, you need some sort of system to keep track of who has to vote, and as far as i know, the US doesn't really have any register of citizens with residence?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 11 2016 14:34 GMT
#71671
On April 11 2016 23:26 Simberto wrote:
But if you want mandatory voting, you need some sort of system to keep track of who has to vote, and as far as i know, the US doesn't really have any register of citizens with residence?

One would need to be created. We don’t keep track of every person in this country or if they are registered to vote. I am excited when we start fining the homeless, poor, mentally ill and elderly for not voting.

The flaws with this system are almost endless. I can think of 100% reasons why people wouldn’t want to vote, including they want to keep their living address private.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 14:36:12
April 11 2016 14:35 GMT
#71672
There'd be a number of ways to work around that, such as an implementation of IRS or census figures as a means of establishing a roll of voters. Naturally, this would include a fair bit of federal involvement in the traditionally state-governed function of voting administration, but it ought not surprise anyone that I'm the sort of person who thinks it's high time we did that sort of thing anyway
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
April 11 2016 14:37 GMT
#71673
On April 11 2016 19:24 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2016 14:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
On April 11 2016 14:22 ticklishmusic wrote:
How about we just go back to the good old literacy tests that Deep South states used, that's a great idea


And any form of socialism is bad because communism failed in the USSR /sarcasm.

It's about execution, and I think it could be done in a way to benefit the welfare of society. My perspective is a bit of a utopian one, and thus it'd have be carefully planned and done in a fair and unbiased way. Of course if we just changed to it overnight and delegated the power to some random people there would likely be issues. That isn't to say something like this can't work.


I don't see why we're having this discussion, but the issue with a socialist economic system is that it distorts incentives. Here's a nice education piece:

Show nested quote +

Assume that an individual, Clem, is a member of a socialist commune. Assume that there are 1,000 members of the commune and that the output is divided equally among the members. (For the sake of simplicity we will ignore matters such as capital investment.) Let’s say that the production of the commune totals 100,000 bushels of wheat a year, or an average of 100 bushels per member. At a price of, say, $5.00 per bushel total receipts for the commune are $500,000, or $500 per member. The question is: How is Clem likely to behave? Will he work hard? Will he shirk?

Let’s assume that Clem is both naturally industrious and socially conscientious. He is concerned about the overall good of the commune. As a result, Clem works very hard and increases his production from 100 to 150 bushels of wheat a year. This increases the annual output of the commune from 100,000 to 100,050 bushels. At $5.00 per bushel the income of the commune increases from $500,000 to $500,250. Since total income is divided equally among the members, the income of each member rises from $500 to $500.25 a year. Thus, because of his extra work Clem’s production increased 50 per cent. But his income increased by a mere 25C or by 0.05 per cent. Moreover, the income of the other 999 members also increased by 25c even though they did not work any harder and their productivity did not increase.

Clearly, Clem’s activities benefited everyone in the commune except himself Everyone else had his income increase without increasing his work. But Clem’s income increased only 25c despite increasing his work load by 50 per cent. While the benefits of the extra production were diffused throughout the commune, the costs were concentrated on Clem. Given the distributional policies of the socialist commune it is clear that Clem’s decision to increase his work was “irrational,” and it is highly unlikely that he would continue his Stakhanovite exertions, thereby subjecting himself to continued exploitation by the other members of the commune. In short, the distributional policies of socialism penalize industrious behavior.

Deeper insight into socialist incentives can be obtained by looking at the situation from a different angle. Assume that the conditions of the commune are the same as described above. But now assume that instead of increasing his production Clem begins to slough off, to shirk. Assume that he cuts his production from the aver age of 100 bushels a year to only 50. What are the effects? The total output of the commune drops from 100,000 bushels to 99,950 bushels. Its total receipts therefore fall from $500,000 to $499,750. As a result each member’s income declines by 25c, from $500 to $499.75. Yet, they have not, we are assuming, reduced their work loads. Clem’s income is also reduced 25C. But he has cut his work load in half. This is a great deal for Clem! He has obtained a 50 per cent increase in leisure at a cost to himself of only 25c, or a 0.05 per cent reduction in income. In short, since the cost of Clem’s shirking is diffused among all the members of the commune while the benefits are channeled to Clem, socialism crates a strong incentive to shirk. The problem, of course, is that there is no mason why this is limited to Clem. It applies with equal force to all members of the commune. But if all members shirk, little or nothing will be produced and the commune will quickly find itself in dire straits.

The basic problem of socialism is the imbalance or asymmetry it creates between costs and benefits. At times the costs are diffused throughout the entire community while the benefits are concentrated on one or a few members. At other times it is the costs that are concentrated while the benefits are diffused. The result is that socialism, by its very nature, rewards sloth and indolence and penalizes diligence and hard work. It therefoR establishes incentives that are incompatible with its self-proclaimed goal of material prosperity. The inherent di lemma of socialism is that individuals who respond “rationally” to the incentives confronting them will produce results that are “irrational” for the community as a whole.

The Solution

The solution to the dilemma of socialist incentives lies in what economists call “internalizing the externalities,” i.e., making sure that both the costs and benefits of individual actions are borne by the individual and do not spill onto “society” as a whole. There are two distinct methods by which this can be accomplished: private property or coercion.

Assume that instead of living in a commune Clem lives in a market society and owns his own farm. If Clem would increase his production, just as he did in the commune, from 100 to 150 bushels, he would receive the full benefit of the additional output. The result, again assuming $5 per bushel, is that Clem’s income would increase not by a mere 25C but by $250, going from $500 to $750 per year. Conversely, by reducing his production from 100 to only 50 bushels, Clem’s income would fall not by 25C but by $250, dropping from $500 per year to only $250. Thus, private property automatically “internalizes the externalities,” i.e., it channels both the costs and the benefits of each individual’s actions onto that particular individual. In doing so it creates incentives that automatically penalize indolence and reward hard work and productivity. These are the exact opposite of the incentives generated by socialism.

To permit private property would be to acknowledge the failure of socialism. As a result, socialist systems have allowed private property only grudgingly and on a very restricted basis. Rather than admit failure socialists have usually opted for the other means to internalize externalities: coercion. To counteract the incentive to shirk, the socialist rulers can establish production quotas for Clem and the other members of the commune and then threaten them with penalties for failure to meet the quotas. Since coercion will stimulate production only if the penalties are severe enough to counteract the incentive to shirk, socialism must reduce the population to virtual slavery. But even if coercion does stimulate production the increase will be far less than under private property. Since it insures that each producer will receive the total value of his production, private property pro vides the incentive to maximize production. Coercion, on the other hand, is only able to establish the incentive to produce the minimum required to avoid punishment. It is no accident that socialism ends up enslaving its workers. Nor is it an accident that free men have always been more productive than slaves.
Source


These introductory papers generally forget about the "implementation" conundrum. It's not that people mess it up, but a planned economy lacks a mechanism for distribution of goods. For example, if you produce 50 bushels more, what happens to the bushels? This wasn't planned, so the transportation system doesn't account for an increase in goods and they cannot be transported to wherever they're needed. Also, the industries down the chain of production still have their plans where they don't account for an extra 50 bushels. Other producers probably didn't produce 50 more of X, so if the final good is made up of bushels and X, you cannot make more without X being produced more as well.

Another problem with socialism is that it attempts to remove all competition, but people are naturally competitive (just watch two 5 year olds play around with a makeshift ball and it ought to become apparent). This is generally analysed at the level of finding a mate - there's always some competition that arises. So even if you manage to convince people that they don't shouldn't reduce their work hours, somehow, they'll try to compete at other levels, creating new inequalities.

Overall there are some good points there and though it's simplistic, it's a reasonably fair assessment of some of the fundamental problems of a pure socialist system. However, the one assertion that I'd have to reject is this one:
To permit private property would be to acknowledge the failure of socialism.

No, it is simply to acknowledge that reality doesn't always conform to some fundamental assumptions about human behavior. I'm sure you'd agree without example that I could write an anecdote about if Clem lived in a crony capitalist system, and how well that would work out for him. It's no more a failure of capitalism to incorporate socialist elements (which has happened over the past century) than it is a failure of a socialist system to accept free market competition as a necessity for reality. Being anticompetitive is not a necessary characteristic of a socialist system, though perhaps it is all too often associated with being so.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42731 Posts
April 11 2016 14:38 GMT
#71674
Ghanburighan, thanks for the ELI5 of why greed is good but I don't think anybody in this topic is unaware of the role of incentives in economic decisions. That article successfully makes the case that if you have an effective tax rate of 99.9% (he was allowed to retain 1/1000 of his increased yield) then people won't want to work as hard. Those of us who were advocating 99.9% tax rates may now reconsider their views. But for the rest of us it somewhat misses the point.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9198 Posts
April 11 2016 14:41 GMT
#71675
There is something wrong with the system when only 40-60% of the people vote but whenever I hear some non-voter talk about politics I'm convinced it would be even worse if voting was mandatory. Sometimes the choice not to vote is understandable but phrases like "they're all thieves anyway", "my vote doesn't matter" or "I voted for that guy because he has a funny name LOL" make my blood boil.
You're now breathing manually
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
April 11 2016 14:42 GMT
#71676
I don't agree with LegalLord often, but the above post is on point.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 14:46:54
April 11 2016 14:44 GMT
#71677
On April 11 2016 23:35 farvacola wrote:
There'd be a number of ways to work around that, such as an implementation of IRS or census figures as a means of establishing a roll of voters. Naturally, this would include a fair bit of federal involvement in the traditionally state-governed function of voting administration, but it ought not surprise anyone that I'm the sort of person who thinks it's high time we did that sort of thing anyway

I don’t think you will get much out of it beyond requiring people to participate against their will and unpredictable voting due to that. If we are going to do this, just make election date a nation holiday ever 2 years. We would make it every year, but I am not sure every state wants to hold is local election on the same day. That will get people to vote more. Fuck, I'll even say that we should black out all cable TV, youtube and radio. Shut it all down for 4 hours.

I am into more federal involvement in how voting is done. The states do not appear to be able to handle it without passing laws that prevent people from voting. But forcing people to cast a ballot seems like a heavy handed solution to a problem with a lot of nuance. We would be at our best if participated willing, which is much harder to accomplish.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 11 2016 15:18 GMT
#71678
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 11 2016 15:54 GMT
#71679
On April 11 2016 23:37 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2016 19:24 Ghanburighan wrote:
On April 11 2016 14:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
On April 11 2016 14:22 ticklishmusic wrote:
How about we just go back to the good old literacy tests that Deep South states used, that's a great idea


And any form of socialism is bad because communism failed in the USSR /sarcasm.

It's about execution, and I think it could be done in a way to benefit the welfare of society. My perspective is a bit of a utopian one, and thus it'd have be carefully planned and done in a fair and unbiased way. Of course if we just changed to it overnight and delegated the power to some random people there would likely be issues. That isn't to say something like this can't work.


I don't see why we're having this discussion, but the issue with a socialist economic system is that it distorts incentives. Here's a nice education piece:


Assume that an individual, Clem, is a member of a socialist commune. Assume that there are 1,000 members of the commune and that the output is divided equally among the members. (For the sake of simplicity we will ignore matters such as capital investment.) Let’s say that the production of the commune totals 100,000 bushels of wheat a year, or an average of 100 bushels per member. At a price of, say, $5.00 per bushel total receipts for the commune are $500,000, or $500 per member. The question is: How is Clem likely to behave? Will he work hard? Will he shirk?

Let’s assume that Clem is both naturally industrious and socially conscientious. He is concerned about the overall good of the commune. As a result, Clem works very hard and increases his production from 100 to 150 bushels of wheat a year. This increases the annual output of the commune from 100,000 to 100,050 bushels. At $5.00 per bushel the income of the commune increases from $500,000 to $500,250. Since total income is divided equally among the members, the income of each member rises from $500 to $500.25 a year. Thus, because of his extra work Clem’s production increased 50 per cent. But his income increased by a mere 25C or by 0.05 per cent. Moreover, the income of the other 999 members also increased by 25c even though they did not work any harder and their productivity did not increase.

Clearly, Clem’s activities benefited everyone in the commune except himself Everyone else had his income increase without increasing his work. But Clem’s income increased only 25c despite increasing his work load by 50 per cent. While the benefits of the extra production were diffused throughout the commune, the costs were concentrated on Clem. Given the distributional policies of the socialist commune it is clear that Clem’s decision to increase his work was “irrational,” and it is highly unlikely that he would continue his Stakhanovite exertions, thereby subjecting himself to continued exploitation by the other members of the commune. In short, the distributional policies of socialism penalize industrious behavior.

Deeper insight into socialist incentives can be obtained by looking at the situation from a different angle. Assume that the conditions of the commune are the same as described above. But now assume that instead of increasing his production Clem begins to slough off, to shirk. Assume that he cuts his production from the aver age of 100 bushels a year to only 50. What are the effects? The total output of the commune drops from 100,000 bushels to 99,950 bushels. Its total receipts therefore fall from $500,000 to $499,750. As a result each member’s income declines by 25c, from $500 to $499.75. Yet, they have not, we are assuming, reduced their work loads. Clem’s income is also reduced 25C. But he has cut his work load in half. This is a great deal for Clem! He has obtained a 50 per cent increase in leisure at a cost to himself of only 25c, or a 0.05 per cent reduction in income. In short, since the cost of Clem’s shirking is diffused among all the members of the commune while the benefits are channeled to Clem, socialism crates a strong incentive to shirk. The problem, of course, is that there is no mason why this is limited to Clem. It applies with equal force to all members of the commune. But if all members shirk, little or nothing will be produced and the commune will quickly find itself in dire straits.

The basic problem of socialism is the imbalance or asymmetry it creates between costs and benefits. At times the costs are diffused throughout the entire community while the benefits are concentrated on one or a few members. At other times it is the costs that are concentrated while the benefits are diffused. The result is that socialism, by its very nature, rewards sloth and indolence and penalizes diligence and hard work. It therefoR establishes incentives that are incompatible with its self-proclaimed goal of material prosperity. The inherent di lemma of socialism is that individuals who respond “rationally” to the incentives confronting them will produce results that are “irrational” for the community as a whole.

The Solution

The solution to the dilemma of socialist incentives lies in what economists call “internalizing the externalities,” i.e., making sure that both the costs and benefits of individual actions are borne by the individual and do not spill onto “society” as a whole. There are two distinct methods by which this can be accomplished: private property or coercion.

Assume that instead of living in a commune Clem lives in a market society and owns his own farm. If Clem would increase his production, just as he did in the commune, from 100 to 150 bushels, he would receive the full benefit of the additional output. The result, again assuming $5 per bushel, is that Clem’s income would increase not by a mere 25C but by $250, going from $500 to $750 per year. Conversely, by reducing his production from 100 to only 50 bushels, Clem’s income would fall not by 25C but by $250, dropping from $500 per year to only $250. Thus, private property automatically “internalizes the externalities,” i.e., it channels both the costs and the benefits of each individual’s actions onto that particular individual. In doing so it creates incentives that automatically penalize indolence and reward hard work and productivity. These are the exact opposite of the incentives generated by socialism.

To permit private property would be to acknowledge the failure of socialism. As a result, socialist systems have allowed private property only grudgingly and on a very restricted basis. Rather than admit failure socialists have usually opted for the other means to internalize externalities: coercion. To counteract the incentive to shirk, the socialist rulers can establish production quotas for Clem and the other members of the commune and then threaten them with penalties for failure to meet the quotas. Since coercion will stimulate production only if the penalties are severe enough to counteract the incentive to shirk, socialism must reduce the population to virtual slavery. But even if coercion does stimulate production the increase will be far less than under private property. Since it insures that each producer will receive the total value of his production, private property pro vides the incentive to maximize production. Coercion, on the other hand, is only able to establish the incentive to produce the minimum required to avoid punishment. It is no accident that socialism ends up enslaving its workers. Nor is it an accident that free men have always been more productive than slaves.
Source


These introductory papers generally forget about the "implementation" conundrum. It's not that people mess it up, but a planned economy lacks a mechanism for distribution of goods. For example, if you produce 50 bushels more, what happens to the bushels? This wasn't planned, so the transportation system doesn't account for an increase in goods and they cannot be transported to wherever they're needed. Also, the industries down the chain of production still have their plans where they don't account for an extra 50 bushels. Other producers probably didn't produce 50 more of X, so if the final good is made up of bushels and X, you cannot make more without X being produced more as well.

Another problem with socialism is that it attempts to remove all competition, but people are naturally competitive (just watch two 5 year olds play around with a makeshift ball and it ought to become apparent). This is generally analysed at the level of finding a mate - there's always some competition that arises. So even if you manage to convince people that they don't shouldn't reduce their work hours, somehow, they'll try to compete at other levels, creating new inequalities.

Overall there are some good points there and though it's simplistic, it's a reasonably fair assessment of some of the fundamental problems of a pure socialist system. However, the one assertion that I'd have to reject is this one:
Show nested quote +
To permit private property would be to acknowledge the failure of socialism.

No, it is simply to acknowledge that reality doesn't always conform to some fundamental assumptions about human behavior. I'm sure you'd agree without example that I could write an anecdote about if Clem lived in a crony capitalist system, and how well that would work out for him. It's no more a failure of capitalism to incorporate socialist elements (which has happened over the past century) than it is a failure of a socialist system to accept free market competition as a necessity for reality. Being anticompetitive is not a necessary characteristic of a socialist system, though perhaps it is all too often associated with being so.


I quite agree that you need a mix of the two (as does nearly everyone), but that's not what FiwiFaki was talking about. He talked about a "form of socialism", which I take to be different from "capitalism incorporating socialist elements". All I wanted to do was provide a clear example of an argument why socialism fails that doesn't rely on showing that the Soviet Union (or some other historical example of socialism) failed. As socialism fundamentally rejects private property, the author of the article wanted to point out that it doesn't make sense to call a system socialist if it has private property. It's this aspect of socialism itself that's flawed. That's also why political thinking has evolved in the past century or so, and social democrats, for example, put forward a viable political arrangement which incorporates both private property and greater equality. It avoids the original problem with incentives in socialism by accepting a free market with a great deal of government intervention.

Kwark, you'd also do well to read what I was replying to.
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