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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-06 22:32:33
April 06 2016 22:24 GMT
#71301
On April 07 2016 07:17 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2016 07:09 WhiteDog wrote:
If you take seriously global warming (meaning if you actually think that we cannot solve it without changing our consumption and our energy production without any kind of scientific innovation that could completly solve its problem), then, somewhere in your head, you didn't came to the conclusion that reducing energy consumption will most likely lessen our hability to travel, and thus to trade ?


I don't think that reducing energy consumption means reducing trade or free movement(although the methods of movement need to shift towards public means of transportation). Actually over the last two decades that is provably false. The global economy is making energy production more efficient and less dependent on carbohydrates at a rather fast pace, and a significant amount of products is digital or in other ways more resource independent. Pretty much all developed countries are reducing their waste and emission products while steadily growing and increasing trade.

It's false over the last two decades, we are not globally more efficient (for traveling), we are just consuming more. The most energy efficient way of traveling that we have is the train, much more than a plane and more than boat. Do we use the train more than in 1980 ? ...

Consider the consumption of energy per american, now tell me the problem is to make china more efficient ? lol
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
April 06 2016 22:25 GMT
#71302
On April 07 2016 07:17 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2016 07:09 WhiteDog wrote:
If you take seriously global warming (meaning if you actually think that we cannot solve it without changing our consumption and our energy production without any kind of scientific innovation that could completly solve its problem), then, somewhere in your head, you didn't came to the conclusion that reducing energy consumption will most likely lessen our hability to travel, and thus to trade ?


I don't think that reducing energy consumption means reducing trade. Actually over the last two decades that is provably falls. The global economy is making energy production more efficient and less dependent on carbohydrates at a rather fast pace, and a significant amount of products is digital or in other ways more resource independent. Pretty much all developed countries are reducing their waste and emission products while steadily growing and increasing trade.


Its also putting the cart before the horse (a common mistake amongst the uneducated)

We have yet to find a solution, so its silly to start pretending to know what aspects of the world are now available/unavailable before we find that solution. Much like WhiteDog's many problems, he feels he already knows the solution so he is already going ten steps ahead of a problem and honestly believes that he is somehow special enough to be the only one to think of it. Its a bit sad, I know, but it explains why he sides with cavemen.

Just as a point of reference: nuclear powered ships can run almost forever with almost zero carbon footprint, and yet he believes that new technologies have to be made to adapt to a transition into zero carbon consumption. So even if we were "forced" to stop consuming carbon--we already have alternatives as is. This is one of the many problems with idealists and their presupposed "answers" to problems they don't really want to dig into.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
April 06 2016 22:29 GMT
#71303
I don't consider myself an idealist nor am I uneducated, but as you wish.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-06 22:33:05
April 06 2016 22:32 GMT
#71304
It's not true though that we've not become more efficient at producing environment friendly goods, we have improved a lot. Just look at the advances in the solar industry over the last ten years. We can produce energy at much lower ecological cost now
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-06 22:35:14
April 06 2016 22:33 GMT
#71305
On April 07 2016 07:32 Nyxisto wrote:
It's not true though that we've not become more efficient at producing environment friendly goods, we have improved a lot. Just look at the advances in the solar industry over the last ten years

I added "for traveling". We're still leaps and bound from any reasonable consumption of energy in the US. We might have the technology, but the actual effect on our consumption of energy is really scarce. The little advancement in developped countries is directly compensated by the increase of consumption in other countries and if the entire world would consume as much as a french, a german (let alone an american citizen) then the world would be burning.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
April 06 2016 22:41 GMT
#71306
On April 07 2016 07:33 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2016 07:32 Nyxisto wrote:
It's not true though that we've not become more efficient at producing environment friendly goods, we have improved a lot. Just look at the advances in the solar industry over the last ten years

I added "for traveling". We're still leaps and bound from any reasonable consumption of energy in the US. We might have the technology, but the actual effect on our consumption of energy is really scarce. The little advancement in developped countries is directly compensated by the increase of consumption in other countries and if the entire world would consume as much as a french, a german (let alone an american citizen) then the world would be burning.


That is not a technology issue, that is a philosophical one.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-06 23:18:41
April 06 2016 23:15 GMT
#71307
So on an entirely unrelated note, how's american politics doing?

All good?
On track to MA1950A.
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
April 06 2016 23:16 GMT
#71308
On April 07 2016 08:15 m4ini wrote:
So in an entirely unrelated note, how's american politics doing?

All good?


Peachy, no issues at all
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
April 06 2016 23:19 GMT
#71309
pretty boring; sure stuff happens, but it's all the same stuff we've heard about for half a year repeating over and over.
At this point it's gotten rather stale really.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
April 06 2016 23:42 GMT
#71310
Bernie supporters are attacking Hilary more
Bernie had a few amateur slip ups
Hilary is getting blamed for Panama
Hilary recently on losing streak but still ahead
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42738 Posts
April 06 2016 23:56 GMT
#71311
On April 07 2016 07:09 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2016 07:05 Nyxisto wrote:
On April 07 2016 07:02 WhiteDog wrote:
Talking about globalization with people that barely even know what it is is tiresome. Do you even know the US is no very open to international trading ? That poorest countries are more "globalized" than most developped countries ? Na you don't, obviously.

You're right, mankind, by the strength of the holy science, will abolish distance, sight and constraints, and we will all live everywhere and nowhere, like information in the internet. We will all belong to same familly, and no one will be sad anymore. The end history.
Amen.

And don't bother about global warming and all that, it's a secondary problem.


Global warming on the other hand is an excellent example of why national solutions will not work. We will not get a significant reduction of the problem without an international framework that actually binds all countries.

If you take seriously global warming (meaning if you actually think that we cannot solve it without changing our consumption and our energy production without any kind of scientific innovation that could completly solve its problem), then, somewhere in your head, you didn't came to the conclusion that reducing energy consumption will most likely lessen our hability to travel, and thus to trade ?

Show nested quote +
On April 07 2016 07:05 cLutZ wrote:
On April 07 2016 06:19 WhiteDog wrote:
On April 07 2016 06:08 Nyxisto wrote:
Sure it has. We're never going to get back to nationalism, globalization isn't going to be stopped. The Left actually would have agreed with this a hundred years ago before they did what they're doing now, which is thinking that the nation state is the solution to everything. We all know how that turned out. If the left wants to have a say in politics this century they're going to need to develop something that actually works in an international framework.

Bernie suffers from this as well. I wonder what he's going to tell to the millions of workers in the developing world who are going to suffer from his new trade policies.


There is no alternative.
Your post is nonsense to me, like we could say globalization or nations is a "progress" on par with the discovery of the atom for exemple. In many part of the world the globalization is not a good thing, and nations are still changing (the middle east ?). Germany was not a nation a hundred year ago almost, and was split in two just forty years ago.

Bernie suffers from this as well. I wonder what he's going to tell to the millions of workers in the developing world who are going to suffer from his new trade policies.

I've already pointed out in many posts that globalization result, for the weakest country, in a state of dependancy. Many countries, in Africa for exemple, that are way too open to globalization, would benefit a lot from going back on it and developping their own infrastructure safe from the competition of the developped countries. Those people who would suffer from "trade policies" could actually well benefit from it, by producing their own goods free from the unequal competition of developped countries.
Now explain me how the Greek economy is benefitting from trading with Germany... lol.


Africa had developing infrastructure...as a result of globalization (then colonialism). When they turned their back on it that infrastructure crumbled because they didn't have the technical ability to maintain it. Meanwhile China went from an international power, crippled itself for nearly a century with bad economic and political policies (which included isolationism in many respects) and then in the last 20 years pulled nearly a billion people out of abject poverty by embracing globalization.

False on Africa, false on China. Nice try. What it shows is your lack of knowledge on the subject ; colonialism destroyed most african infrastructures, due to the lack of knowledge of the colonial powers mostly. They were unable to adapt to the environment ; one famous exemple, they put cities near water (lake and such), mimicking europe, but those wet area were also the place where most insect strive, so much that they greatly enhanced the effect of malaria and such (while pre colonial tribes had "cities" in dry areas).

You're stretching my credulity at "colonialism destroyed African infrastructures due to lack of colonial knowledge".

What African infrastructure are we talking about here? Modern infrastructure came to Africa with the European colonialism. You might argue that they made some planning mistakes by trying to stamp Europe onto Africa but it's not like they rerouted the native African railways. I'm sure pre-colonial Africa had many rich and vibrant cultures with a lot to offer but I'm skeptical that the Europeans ruined their modern industrial infrastructure.

I'm calling bullshit on this one unless you cite some sources.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 07 2016 00:12 GMT
#71312
WASHINGTON — This spring, the Environmental Protection Agency plans to finalize rules to curb methane emissions from the oil and gas sector, EPA administrator Gina McCarthy said at a breakfast for reporters sponsored by The Christian Science Monitor Tuesday.

Methane, the main component of natural gas, is of special concern, advocates for climate change say, because it traps planet-warming heat around 80 times faster than carbon dioxide. Last month, the EPA announced that it planned to expand its regulations of methane emissions.

“You will see that these rules continue our commitment to achieve the US goal of reducing methane emissions by 40 to 45 percent below 2012 levels,” Ms. McCarthy said. “We’re going to be moving that forward.”

Experts say a small number of oil and gas facilities are responsible for most methane leaks in the United States. Left over fluids from hydraulic fracturing (“fracking”), a method for extracting natural gas, have some of the highest levels of methane.

But methane emissions have proven challenging to measure. On Tuesday, the administrator said the EPA would carry out an information collection request to help accurately determine the extent of emissions throughout the country.

She also emphasized the need to cut emissions from other sources of greenhouse gas, such as agriculture and livestock production and food waste.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-07 00:39:08
April 07 2016 00:32 GMT
#71313
Sanders' campaign is literally proving Hillary's point that receiving donations from people who work in an industry doesn't mean you're going to work for that industry. I mean seriously, attacking Hillary with the insinuation that she's cozy with the gun industry?! She's the only candidate pushing to hold gun manufacturers accountable for violence committed with the weapons they sell! The NRA rates her positions F for a reason.

"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-07 00:35:55
April 07 2016 00:33 GMT
#71314
i mean i get into arguments predicated upon unclear term or tone sometimes for lethargic relief but reading these is certainly no fun.

though in this case im mainly curious about the marxist economic history references whitedoge treats as truth
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
April 07 2016 00:49 GMT
#71315
interesting essay on social class vs economic class

http://siderea.livejournal.com/1260265.html?format=light

i skimmed like a paragraph and decided its worth posting
excerpt:
The US has at least two different systems of what gets termed "socioeconomic class". They are everywhere conflated, and this is bad.

Two of them I will term economic class and social class.

Economic class refers to money. It refers to the wealth or poverty of a person, and to the privileges they do or do not have because of their economic might or lack thereof.

Social class is what is being referred to by such terms as "middle class", "working class", "white collar", "professional", "blue collar", and the pejoratives "white trash" and "townie".

It is a common confusion – or intellectual dodge – to conflate social class with economic class. But what what differentiates, say, the middle class from the working class is not mere wealth or earning power; as we all know, a plumber (presumed working class) may make much more money than a professor (presumed professional).

To use myself as an illustration: I make very little money, so I am heir to the misfortunes that disproportionately impact the impecunious – the almost-certain forthcoming hike in T fares looms large in my anxieties right now – but I am a professional with an advanced degree and possession of the shibboleths of the professional class. I didn't stop being in the social class I had been in when I dropped to a much lower economic class. The privileges I lost were only those attendant to economic might; I retained the privileges of social position.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15690 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-07 00:53:59
April 07 2016 00:53 GMT
#71316
On April 07 2016 09:32 kwizach wrote:
Sanders' campaign is literally proving Hillary's point that receiving donations from people who work in an industry doesn't mean you're going to work for that industry. I mean seriously, attacking Hillary with the insinuation that she's cozy with the gun industry?! She's the only candidate pushing to hold gun manufacturers accountable for violence committed with the weapons they sell! The NRA rates her positions F for a reason.

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/717845731789447168



I'm starting to think Sanders may actually be crazy enough to think he's gonna win.
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-07 09:40:54
April 07 2016 00:58 GMT
#71317
EDIT: Completely misremembering. whoops.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
April 07 2016 00:58 GMT
#71318
On April 07 2016 08:56 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2016 07:09 WhiteDog wrote:
On April 07 2016 07:05 Nyxisto wrote:
On April 07 2016 07:02 WhiteDog wrote:
Talking about globalization with people that barely even know what it is is tiresome. Do you even know the US is no very open to international trading ? That poorest countries are more "globalized" than most developped countries ? Na you don't, obviously.

You're right, mankind, by the strength of the holy science, will abolish distance, sight and constraints, and we will all live everywhere and nowhere, like information in the internet. We will all belong to same familly, and no one will be sad anymore. The end history.
Amen.

And don't bother about global warming and all that, it's a secondary problem.


Global warming on the other hand is an excellent example of why national solutions will not work. We will not get a significant reduction of the problem without an international framework that actually binds all countries.

If you take seriously global warming (meaning if you actually think that we cannot solve it without changing our consumption and our energy production without any kind of scientific innovation that could completly solve its problem), then, somewhere in your head, you didn't came to the conclusion that reducing energy consumption will most likely lessen our hability to travel, and thus to trade ?

On April 07 2016 07:05 cLutZ wrote:
On April 07 2016 06:19 WhiteDog wrote:
On April 07 2016 06:08 Nyxisto wrote:
Sure it has. We're never going to get back to nationalism, globalization isn't going to be stopped. The Left actually would have agreed with this a hundred years ago before they did what they're doing now, which is thinking that the nation state is the solution to everything. We all know how that turned out. If the left wants to have a say in politics this century they're going to need to develop something that actually works in an international framework.

Bernie suffers from this as well. I wonder what he's going to tell to the millions of workers in the developing world who are going to suffer from his new trade policies.


There is no alternative.
Your post is nonsense to me, like we could say globalization or nations is a "progress" on par with the discovery of the atom for exemple. In many part of the world the globalization is not a good thing, and nations are still changing (the middle east ?). Germany was not a nation a hundred year ago almost, and was split in two just forty years ago.

Bernie suffers from this as well. I wonder what he's going to tell to the millions of workers in the developing world who are going to suffer from his new trade policies.

I've already pointed out in many posts that globalization result, for the weakest country, in a state of dependancy. Many countries, in Africa for exemple, that are way too open to globalization, would benefit a lot from going back on it and developping their own infrastructure safe from the competition of the developped countries. Those people who would suffer from "trade policies" could actually well benefit from it, by producing their own goods free from the unequal competition of developped countries.
Now explain me how the Greek economy is benefitting from trading with Germany... lol.


Africa had developing infrastructure...as a result of globalization (then colonialism). When they turned their back on it that infrastructure crumbled because they didn't have the technical ability to maintain it. Meanwhile China went from an international power, crippled itself for nearly a century with bad economic and political policies (which included isolationism in many respects) and then in the last 20 years pulled nearly a billion people out of abject poverty by embracing globalization.

False on Africa, false on China. Nice try. What it shows is your lack of knowledge on the subject ; colonialism destroyed most african infrastructures, due to the lack of knowledge of the colonial powers mostly. They were unable to adapt to the environment ; one famous exemple, they put cities near water (lake and such), mimicking europe, but those wet area were also the place where most insect strive, so much that they greatly enhanced the effect of malaria and such (while pre colonial tribes had "cities" in dry areas).

You're stretching my credulity at "colonialism destroyed African infrastructures due to lack of colonial knowledge".

What African infrastructure are we talking about here? Modern infrastructure came to Africa with the European colonialism. You might argue that they made some planning mistakes by trying to stamp Europe onto Africa but it's not like they rerouted the native African railways. I'm sure pre-colonial Africa had many rich and vibrant cultures with a lot to offer but I'm skeptical that the Europeans ruined their modern industrial infrastructure.

I'm calling bullshit on this one unless you cite some sources.


At the end of Colonization countries like Rhodesia had transnational railways that rivaled those of Europe. Near the end of British control Argentina had a median GDP per capita nearly on par with the United States, prior to Castro the same was true of Cuba.

Whitehat is legitimately crazy. Colonialism did a great deal of bad things to undeveloped countries. Failure of infrastructure is not one of those things. The infrastructures were state of the art...to facilitate the more exploitative things.
Freeeeeeedom
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 07 2016 01:03 GMT
#71319
Top officials with the Obama administration said Wednesday that they'll redirect $589 million toward the Zika virus response. Most of that money was to be used to deal with Ebola virus.

Almost two months ago, the Obama administration requested $1.9 billion from Congress to respond to the Zika threat.

"But Congress has yet to act," Shaun Donovan, director of the Office of Management and Budget, said in a news conference. "In the absence of congressional action, we must scale up Zika preparedness and response activities right now."

Over 600 people with Zika, including 64 pregnant women, have been reported in U.S. states and territories. In most cases, people contracted the virus while traveling.

But Sylvia Burwell, secretary of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, says she expects to see local Zika virus transmission in the continental U.S. in coming months.

The redirected funds will go to mosquito control and surveillance; education about how to prevent transmission; supporting states and territories in their own Zika virus responses; and developing vaccines and better diagnostic tests.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-07 01:04:17
April 07 2016 01:04 GMT
#71320
As above, the primary destruction of infrastructure in former colonial countries was socio-political.


If you can get a copy of it, or borrow it from either a university or public library, "Citizen and Subject:
Contemporary Africa and the Legacy of Late Colonialism", by Mahmood Mamdani
(here) is perhaps one of the greatest books on the subject.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
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