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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
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oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 21 2016 21:11 GMT
#68321
a few hundred.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
March 21 2016 21:14 GMT
#68322
On March 22 2016 04:57 frazzle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2016 04:49 cLutZ wrote:
On March 22 2016 04:25 farvacola wrote:
Sanders represents a demographic that AIPAC likes to pretend doesn't exist.


He also embraces the rhetoric (albeit in a different context) of the "Oppressors vs. Oppressed" that is routinely levied against Israel, and is basically the consensus way of thought on the Israel-Palestine situation throughout the Muslim world.

I mean, they are a country that has to be on constant vigilance regarding worldwide rhetoric surrounding their situation, as its fairly unprecedented. How often are lands won during a defensive war that are contiguous with your previous borders, and traditionally part of the state to which you are a successor, still considered disputed internationally? Its like if the UN said Alsace and Prussia are still possibly German territory.

If they embraced the Palestinians they conquered and integrated them into the state of Israel that would be one thing. Expelling Palestinians from their land and explicitly having a policy of maintaining a Jewish majority state is another.


Isn't that kind of the purpose of the State of Israel as originally conceived? Also, isn't it kind of necessary regardless for them to have that policy judging by the political realities of a non-Jewish-majority democracy in that region?
Freeeeeeedom
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10989 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-21 21:16:13
March 21 2016 21:14 GMT
#68323
Some quick googling brought me to: Germany/Franke/UK/Spain/Italy alone accounting for 20% of total arms exports worldwide (US is at 31%, Russia at 25% and China at 5%).
While i agree that it would take time to truely gear it up, its not like there isn't any knowledge around...

But nvm, its a stupid discussion and i don't know why I started it
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-21 21:25:05
March 21 2016 21:15 GMT
#68324
On March 22 2016 06:06 KwarK wrote:
A few tens of billions? So like one F-35?


That's without the maintenance plan...

You can get 80+ New F-15's and a lot of extra goodies for that price. The new F-15's are rigged better than some of our own that haven't been upgraded yet.

And that's the pricetag for people who behead people in public for having butt sex at home.

I imagine a group who didn't do that would get quite the deal.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 21 2016 21:26 GMT
#68325
On March 22 2016 06:14 Velr wrote:
Some quick googling brought me to: Germany/Franke/UK/Spain/Italy alone accounting for 20% of total arms exports worldwide (US is at 31%, Russia at 25% and China at 5%).
While i agree that it would take time to truely gear it up, its not like there isn't any knowledge around...

But nvm, its a stupid discussion and i don't know why I started it

you can't really lump uk into that group. there is greater integration of uk to murica now than ten years ago.

also, lol 'new f15.' it's more expensive to buy these than f35 in bulk.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
March 21 2016 21:29 GMT
#68326
On March 22 2016 06:26 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2016 06:14 Velr wrote:
Some quick googling brought me to: Germany/Franke/UK/Spain/Italy alone accounting for 20% of total arms exports worldwide (US is at 31%, Russia at 25% and China at 5%).
While i agree that it would take time to truely gear it up, its not like there isn't any knowledge around...

But nvm, its a stupid discussion and i don't know why I started it

you can't really lump uk into that group. there is greater integration of uk to murica now than ten years ago.

also, lol 'new f15.' it's more expensive to buy these than f35 in bulk.



It wasn't for Saudi Arabia.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-21 21:37:27
March 21 2016 21:37 GMT
#68327
I'm pretty sure KwarK was joking about tens of billions for a plane. You can get yourself a Nimitz-class carrier for 4.5B or a Gerard Ford-class one for 10B (not accounting for ~30B of R&D).
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-21 21:42:08
March 21 2016 21:38 GMT
#68328
uh no the cost isn't the problem. it is a strategic concern about their stability, and also parity issues with israel.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-09/gates-says-israel-gave-in-on-saudi-arms-after-f-35-pledge


f-15 is 40 years old. it's not at parity with f35 platform especially given future upgrade potential with stuff like hypersonic weapons and drone slaves.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 21 2016 21:39 GMT
#68329
On March 22 2016 06:37 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm pretty sure KwarK was joking about tens of billions for a plane. You can get yourself a Nimitz-class carrier for 4.5B or a Gerard Ford-class one for 10B (not accounting for ~30B of R&D).


Damn, now where did I put my credit card?
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
March 21 2016 21:44 GMT
#68330
The total life-cycle cost for the entire U.S. fleet was estimated at US$1.51 trillion over a 50-year life, or $618 million per plane.


I was exaggerating but by less than you'd think.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
March 21 2016 21:44 GMT
#68331
On March 22 2016 06:37 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm pretty sure KwarK was joking about tens of billions for a plane. You can get yourself a Nimitz-class carrier for 4.5B or a Gerard Ford-class one for 10B (not accounting for ~30B of R&D).


Of course, they run about $75-$120m each, depending on how you want to calculate the cost. We will have paid quite a bit more for ours though.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
March 21 2016 21:46 GMT
#68332
On March 22 2016 06:44 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2016 06:37 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm pretty sure KwarK was joking about tens of billions for a plane. You can get yourself a Nimitz-class carrier for 4.5B or a Gerard Ford-class one for 10B (not accounting for ~30B of R&D).


Of course, they run about $75-$120m each, depending on how you want to calculate the cost. We will have paid quite a bit more for ours though.

They come with locked in service contracts with Lockheed-Martin. They don't make their money on the plane, they make it on the upkeep because the government doesn't understand what a sunk cost is and would rather pay $50m on upkeep per year than remove a $80m asset from their books.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-21 21:47:59
March 21 2016 21:47 GMT
#68333
On March 22 2016 05:12 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2016 05:06 Sent. wrote:
I don't think Trump wanted Germany to put on their superpower pants and take care of the Ukrainian crisis. I can only guess but more reasonable interpretation would be that he used Germany as an example of a Western European country. His voters seem to like simplifications and scapegoating so it would make sense for Trump to just point his finger at Germany and say some angry words.


I think that's likely. Especially as he also called out South Korea for not pulling its weight, while South Korea spends a lot of its GDP on defense; South Korea's military spending as percent of its GDP is roughly in the same ballpark as the US, but because it's poorer, this means South Korea spends roughly 10% of their annual budget on defense.


Well, it could be worse. He could have called out Japan for only have a self-defense force. In fact I bet the only thing stopping him from vomiting that up at some point is that he doesn't know about it.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 21 2016 21:48 GMT
#68334
So basically a F15 or F35 is a giant flying printer, they sell the actual hardware to you cheap then get you with supplies.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
March 21 2016 21:53 GMT
#68335
The F35 is a fiscal disaster. There isn't any other way to look at it. And its whole premise -- a one size fits all aircraft -- has proven to be questionable at best. I doubt that the DoD will ever go down that road again. Worse still, its functionality is highly suspect. God knows that we need a replacement for our aging third and fourth generation aircraft, but the F35 may end up being a catastrophe.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 21 2016 21:54 GMT
#68336
Donald Trump is on the verge of two things once thought to be impossible: winning the Republican presidential nomination, and putting Republicans’ historically large House majority in danger.

Democrats have for the past year discussed the GOP’s 30-seat majority as a long-term problem, solvable only by shrinking it over several successive elections. But Trump’s remarkable rise in the GOP presidential race, and the backlash he has already provoked among the broader electorate, has suddenly raised the prospect of a large November wave against Trump and the Republicans who would share the ballot with him.

The House GOP’s leading indicators — its most vulnerable members, like Reps. Bob Dold and Carlos Curbelo — are already sounding the alarm against Trump and his rhetoric on women, Hispanics and other groups. The party’s outside groups are preparing an intensified fundraising push to help defend the chamber. The respected Cook Political Report downgraded Republicans’ chances in 10 districts Friday. And though the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, which has been stung by overzealous predictions in past years, won’t say outright that the majority is in play, the party is clearly thinking about it.

Democrats already had reasonable odds of flipping a dozen or so House seats. But DCCC Chairman Ben Ray Luján recently started highlighting “reach” districts, like those of Rep. John Mica in Florida and Rep. Steve Knight in California, that broaden Democrats’ target list enough to take back the chamber — if local candidates can take advantage of the sudden opportunity. Strategists are now turning their attention to moderate suburbs around Detroit, Minneapolis, Washington and other areas where House Democrats have struggled in recent years but Trump has already shown weakness.

“The idea that Trump is going to help with federal races is like putting lipstick on a pig,” said Jason Roe, a California-based Republican strategist and a former spokesman for Marco Rubio's presidential campaign. “To deal with that, most people with a brain are cutting and running, redirecting resources from the presidential to keeping control of Senate and House.”

A handful of particularly vulnerable Republicans have already distanced themselves from Trump.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-21 22:01:30
March 21 2016 21:57 GMT
#68337
f35 is still in developmental phase, and with a small number of planes. they also have to retrofit the existing fleet when a bug is tested out, given the concurrence of development and production. so maintenance per plane currently is higher than long term projection. overall maintenance is only a big per plane increase over literal steel scraps like the a-10, and like half of what the f-22 costs. it will also be insanely expensive to keep the old legacy fleet maintained.


there is a lot of good news with the program recently so as the plane comes online expect it to perform well.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 21 2016 21:59 GMT
#68338
Kasich walking off the stage to what sounds like the soundtrack of a Disney adventure.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
March 21 2016 22:01 GMT
#68339
On March 22 2016 06:47 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2016 05:12 Ghanburighan wrote:
On March 22 2016 05:06 Sent. wrote:
I don't think Trump wanted Germany to put on their superpower pants and take care of the Ukrainian crisis. I can only guess but more reasonable interpretation would be that he used Germany as an example of a Western European country. His voters seem to like simplifications and scapegoating so it would make sense for Trump to just point his finger at Germany and say some angry words.


I think that's likely. Especially as he also called out South Korea for not pulling its weight, while South Korea spends a lot of its GDP on defense; South Korea's military spending as percent of its GDP is roughly in the same ballpark as the US, but because it's poorer, this means South Korea spends roughly 10% of their annual budget on defense.


Well, it could be worse. He could have called out Japan for only have a self-defense force. In fact I bet the only thing stopping him from vomiting that up at some point is that he doesn't know about it.

considering that he has mentioned Japan and the US being stupid for supporting them without getting anything out of it I'd say that was already implied some time ago.
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-21 22:06:41
March 21 2016 22:02 GMT
#68340
On March 22 2016 06:46 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2016 06:44 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 22 2016 06:37 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm pretty sure KwarK was joking about tens of billions for a plane. You can get yourself a Nimitz-class carrier for 4.5B or a Gerard Ford-class one for 10B (not accounting for ~30B of R&D).


Of course, they run about $75-$120m each, depending on how you want to calculate the cost. We will have paid quite a bit more for ours though.

They come with locked in service contracts with Lockheed-Martin. They don't make their money on the plane, they make it on the upkeep because the government doesn't understand what a sunk cost is and would rather pay $50m on upkeep per year than remove a $80m asset from their books.


Yup. Not a fan of the military industrial complex at all. It's a well oiled machine and it's one of those things every politician plays a role in perpetuating. Bernie fights it pretty hard, but the F-35 in particular, is one he's wrapped up in. It's one of those issues where he's the "least bad" for me.

The MIC is probably one of the best threads to follow if you want to see how every politician's rhetoric is undermined by it.

literal steel scraps like the a-10


lol this is just too fitting.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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