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On February 28 2016 21:04 SolitudeEU wrote:Show nested quote +Anyway, amazing result from Clinton! I hope this will lead Sanders to concede sooner than later (hopefully after March 1st, but after March the 15th at the latest), and work with Clinton against the Republican nominee. I'm not to familiar with the american political process (as im from Europe), but is there a advantage for the candidate, who drops out, to do it early? I was under the impression that you could gain some kind of "leverage" over your party, if you run up enough delegates in the primary. I could see dropping out as viable, when there are winner-take-all systems in place, but in the democratic primary, everything is proportional, so he would maximize his influence by just hanging in and cashing in even 20-25 percent in every state? Insofar as I understand it, you are expected to drop out when it's clear that whatever strategy you thought you had to win the nomination failed. Which is why with the Republicans, Kasich is still in: he's waiting for Ohio, even though all other results shoe it incredibly unlikely he can do much of anything. Carson, however, is just in the race to sell more books and look like a ridiculous twit.
On the democrat side, Bernie needs to win the white states and show he can stay close in the black states. The latter seems spectacularly unlikely after SC, so if super Tuesday doesn't turn that around, it's clear he won't win and is just dragging things out. Doing that for a little while can give you leverage, but do it for too long and people start getting upset, and instead of gaining leverage, you start burning bridges.
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On February 28 2016 21:04 SolitudeEU wrote:Show nested quote +Anyway, amazing result from Clinton! I hope this will lead Sanders to concede sooner than later (hopefully after March 1st, but after March the 15th at the latest), and work with Clinton against the Republican nominee. I'm not to familiar with the american political process (as im from Europe), but is there a advantage for the candidate, who drops out, to do it early? I was under the impression that you could gain some kind of "leverage" over your party, if you run up enough delegates in the primary. I could see dropping out as viable, when there are winner-take-all systems in place, but in the democratic primary, everything is proportional, so he would maximize his influence by just hanging in and cashing in even 20-25 percent in every state? When there are still three or more people, you can gain leverage by staying in and taking delegates. Then negotiating.
When it's just two people, there's no leverage to be gained by continuing. Instead, you just drag each other down and spend money. So instead, by negotiating a deal early in a two-way race, you can prevent further spending on the primary, leaving your party in a better position to spend during the general election. In return for dropping out early and endorsing the candidate, you might be given a position within the administration or have the other candidate take on some of your ideas.
The interesting thing is that South Carolina will almost definitely go Republican, so winning that state in the democratic primary is almost worthless for the general election. Yet, people are treating it like the death knell for Sanders. What he needs to be able to do in a general election is win Florida and Ohio while maintaining the traditional democrat states.
Just more issues with the way the primaries are set up.
Unfortunately, unless Sanders really gets good results on March 1st, I think he should drop. As worthless as SC may be for a democrat in the general, it makes it that much harder to win the primary.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 28 2016 21:28 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 21:04 SolitudeEU wrote:Anyway, amazing result from Clinton! I hope this will lead Sanders to concede sooner than later (hopefully after March 1st, but after March the 15th at the latest), and work with Clinton against the Republican nominee. I'm not to familiar with the american political process (as im from Europe), but is there a advantage for the candidate, who drops out, to do it early? I was under the impression that you could gain some kind of "leverage" over your party, if you run up enough delegates in the primary. I could see dropping out as viable, when there are winner-take-all systems in place, but in the democratic primary, everything is proportional, so he would maximize his influence by just hanging in and cashing in even 20-25 percent in every state? Insofar as I understand it, you are expected to drop out when it's clear that whatever strategy you thought you had to win the nomination failed. Which is why with the Republicans, Kasich is still in: he's waiting for Ohio, even though all other results shoe it incredibly unlikely he can do much of anything. Carson, however, is just in the race to sell more books and look like a ridiculous twit. On the democrat side, Bernie needs to win the white states and show he can stay close in the black states. The latter seems spectacularly unlikely after SC, so if super Tuesday doesn't turn that around, it's clear he won't win and is just dragging things out. Doing that for a little while can give you leverage, but do it for too long and people start getting upset, and instead of gaining leverage, you start burning bridges. Sanders' mistake was in thinking that young people would actually come out to vote rather than simply talk a big game.
Still going to vote for Hillary in the general (looks like my state is a swing state this year) but I am anticipating another decade of bungled foreign policy and mediocre but not outright destructive domestic policy.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On February 28 2016 21:24 Orlok wrote: Man, I wish, truly wish, that I could support HRC. However, I just can't believe that she'll pull off anything meaningful in terms of change due to her ever-changing opinions on various hot-potato topics like gay marriage, the consequences of the Iraq War being deemed as a simple "mistake", The beat-downs on the ladies who filed lawsuits against Bill and just so many layers of political mistakes, problems and dishonesty that I guess has become the norm for all politicians, regardless of party. those are honestly pretty not important issues. she has a consistently liberal voting record and outside of conspiratorial fearmongering by leftists who can't tell you the first thing about the actual GATT treaty structure she has been fine. basically anti-trade and extremists on finance reform hate her for little legitimate reason.
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On February 28 2016 21:24 Orlok wrote: [...] just so many layers of political mistakes, problems and dishonesty that I guess has become the norm for all politicians, regardless of party. I would like any HRC follower/supporter to just answer this; do you honestly believe, after looking at her track record so far which from a objective point of view most people would say isn't anything close to progressive and seeking true change, that she WILL bring about the various changes she has proposed? The various scandals and problems she has 1. The idea that Hillary has many scandals attached to her name is Republican propaganda. They've been attacking her dishonestly for the last 25 years. 2. Hillary was to the left of the average of Democratic lawmakers in the Senate -- according to a certain measure, the was the 11th most liberal member of the senate during her time there. Her main focus was on achieving results for her constituency. 3. If you want to take a look at her positions on various issues, see here. She's safely in the liberal/progressive camp. Not by as much as I'd like her to be, but to claim the opposite is simply dishonest (see also the summary and the diagram at the bottom).
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On February 28 2016 21:30 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 21:04 SolitudeEU wrote:Anyway, amazing result from Clinton! I hope this will lead Sanders to concede sooner than later (hopefully after March 1st, but after March the 15th at the latest), and work with Clinton against the Republican nominee. I'm not to familiar with the american political process (as im from Europe), but is there a advantage for the candidate, who drops out, to do it early? I was under the impression that you could gain some kind of "leverage" over your party, if you run up enough delegates in the primary. I could see dropping out as viable, when there are winner-take-all systems in place, but in the democratic primary, everything is proportional, so he would maximize his influence by just hanging in and cashing in even 20-25 percent in every state? When there are still three or more people, you can gain leverage by staying in and taking delegates. Then negotiating. When it's just two people, there's no leverage to be gained by continuing. Instead, you just drag each other down and spend money. So instead, by negotiating a deal early in a two-way race, you can prevent further spending on the primary, leaving your party in a better position to spend during the general election. In return for dropping out early and endorsing the candidate, you might be given a position within the administration or have the other candidate take on some of your ideas. The interesting thing is that South Carolina will almost definitely go Republican, so winning that state in the democratic primary is almost worthless for the general election. Yet, people are treating it like the death knell for Sanders. What he needs to be able to do in a general election is win Florida and Ohio while maintaining the traditional democrat states. Just more issues with the way the primaries are set up. Unfortunately, unless Sanders really gets good results on March 1st, I think he should drop. As worthless as SC may be for a democrat in the general, it makes it that much harder to win the primary. But since the primaries are proportional, wouldn't it make sense to consider that Clinton and Sanders both have one "clear win" and two "almost ties", thus that Sanders is in a much better spot than Clinton 3-1 Sanders makes it appear?
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On February 28 2016 23:28 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 21:30 RenSC2 wrote:On February 28 2016 21:04 SolitudeEU wrote:Anyway, amazing result from Clinton! I hope this will lead Sanders to concede sooner than later (hopefully after March 1st, but after March the 15th at the latest), and work with Clinton against the Republican nominee. I'm not to familiar with the american political process (as im from Europe), but is there a advantage for the candidate, who drops out, to do it early? I was under the impression that you could gain some kind of "leverage" over your party, if you run up enough delegates in the primary. I could see dropping out as viable, when there are winner-take-all systems in place, but in the democratic primary, everything is proportional, so he would maximize his influence by just hanging in and cashing in even 20-25 percent in every state? When there are still three or more people, you can gain leverage by staying in and taking delegates. Then negotiating. When it's just two people, there's no leverage to be gained by continuing. Instead, you just drag each other down and spend money. So instead, by negotiating a deal early in a two-way race, you can prevent further spending on the primary, leaving your party in a better position to spend during the general election. In return for dropping out early and endorsing the candidate, you might be given a position within the administration or have the other candidate take on some of your ideas. The interesting thing is that South Carolina will almost definitely go Republican, so winning that state in the democratic primary is almost worthless for the general election. Yet, people are treating it like the death knell for Sanders. What he needs to be able to do in a general election is win Florida and Ohio while maintaining the traditional democrat states. Just more issues with the way the primaries are set up. Unfortunately, unless Sanders really gets good results on March 1st, I think he should drop. As worthless as SC may be for a democrat in the general, it makes it that much harder to win the primary. But since the primaries are proportional, wouldn't it make sense to consider that Clinton and Sanders both have one "clear win" and two "almost ties", thus that Sanders is in a much better spot than Clinton 3-1 Sanders makes it appear? No, he's really not.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
nationally the democrats rely on a big turnout of blacks in some states such as florida so sc is still a very significant indicator of this important strategic cornerstone.
the general thing about presidential election year is that the gop just rekt democrats during midterms so getting the turnout high for a presidential year is extremely important for dems as it offers basically the only chance at passing your policy.
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Though I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed with South Carolina's results, I definitely think folks doom and glooming the Democratic race need to reconsider. Sanders is doing exactly what he needs to, that is pull the other candidate to the left while remaining competitive. Whether Hillary is "a true liberal" is really not very important in comparison to the proposals of literally every Republican, and so long as she adheres to the Clintonian approach of voter-mandate centric policy making, I don't see why she'd only be a one term president like some are saying.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
problem is the sort of left that his supporters seem to want are not the right kind of policy. if sanders was more sensible rather than a true believer he would be leveraging his support way better in getting the non-disastrous part of his platform into hillary but he can't tell good from bad as long as it's really left.
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Korea (South)227 Posts
On February 28 2016 23:26 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 21:24 Orlok wrote: [...] just so many layers of political mistakes, problems and dishonesty that I guess has become the norm for all politicians, regardless of party. I would like any HRC follower/supporter to just answer this; do you honestly believe, after looking at her track record so far which from a objective point of view most people would say isn't anything close to progressive and seeking true change, that she WILL bring about the various changes she has proposed? The various scandals and problems she has 1. The idea that Hillary has many scandals attached to her name is Republican propaganda. They've been attacking her dishonestly for the last 25 years. 2. Hillary was to the left of the average of Democratic lawmakers in the Senate -- according to a certain measure, the was the 11th most liberal member of the senate during her time there. Her main focus was on achieving results for her constituency. 3. If you want to take a look at her positions on various issues, see here. She's safely in the liberal/progressive camp. Not by as much as I'd like her to be, but to claim the opposite is simply dishonest (see also the summary and the diagram at the bottom).
Point 3 I give you somewhat skeptically, but point 1 is for me something that doesn't make sense, as far as what I've read and seen. Are all of her scandals Republican propaganda? Some have been indeed blown out of proportion by republicans, but the numerous scandals I've personally read about have indeed been committed by HRC. The email server incident may be a little overboard with the hate and slandering, but if you have more than a few investigations into that server by the FBI, I find it hard to simply believe that its a republican scam cooked up by the GOP to disinherit HRC. Point 2 seems very unbelievable too. Personally, this is why its difficult to really talk to HRC supporters. I ask them the question what makes you believe, despite the flip-flopping(and the person above who said the Iraq vote was not of much importance-its spurned in an era of turmoil and confusion in the middle east and birthed ISIS, a terrorist organization that bombed France. Is that not important to you because you weren't affected by it? She owns a part of that terrible decision and its legacy, and is saying she'll bomb it more to solve it) and very poor proof that she's a liberal (Look at her ties with big oil and Wall street for christ sake-thats not speculation, its fact that she's in their pockets, what with the ridiculous back and forth voting for Keystone pipeline and her getting paid hefty amounts by various Wall St big boys such as Goldman Sachs) why you think she's worth voting more, and all they say or do is point me to what she "says" will do, what the establishment paints her as. Of course there are sources stating that she's bloody liberal, but from the resume of foreign policies and economic policies as well as general social issues I see no progressive/liberal where she stands. I was asking, when you look at her overall ties with the current neo-liberal establishment, how you think she can give the change she promises? Can a person make massive economical changes (which ARE necessary to combat the current inequalities of neo-liberalism, no matter how high the modest GDP growth rates come out as) when they have quite visible ties to the current economic establishment which has not learnt its lesson even after the massive 07-08 financial shock? Can we trust a president to be amiable to foreign countries when the foreign policy she has shown off her entire career was one of a warmonger, eager to distribute bombing and attacks first and not last, as war should be when assessing a political situation in a foreign country? I am asking, when you face the dirt HRC has and has tried to hide so much under a so called progressive cloak, can you really, logically provide counter arguments that make my points moot (prove that ties with wall street are either false or non-meaningful in an election, which as we all know with the current money buys votes system is not true, or prove that she's always been a steadfast character in certain respects of social and economic points and issues). I just don't see from a logical standpoint why she's winning by the margins that she is. Is a candidate who is a lesser evil than the clowns in the GOP really worth a vote? Now I do know I sound like one of Bernies fans, who viciously support everything progressive and hate any moderate for not joining their cause. I would like to think of myself as indeed a Bernie supporter but not a wild one-I simply, after looking at both sides from an objective a view as possible find it difficult to provide a decent case for voting Clinton over Bernie. She has a history of dishonesty. She has a history of voting for pro-war sides and the consequences are still very much hurting the US and other countries. She has a very long line of rich, powerful people with the Clinton legacy of influence peddling. Bernie Sanders may also have some dirt(no person is actually perfect) but compared to the size and stink of the dirt that HRC has, its really unnoticeable. Change, while it is certainly radical is necessary in the US economy. Its the most important issue because too many things such as political elections and influence as well as the environment issues and a myriad more are directly linked to the current economic system, and to say that we need a moderate to make something move is like saying you need a sloth to run a race for you-its not effective.
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1. I'm not sure which scandals you're referring to other than the one related to her use of a private e-mail server, which is a complete non-issue in terms of what she would do as president. 2. I'm not sure what's supposed to be "unbelievable" about what I linked you to. Her record of votes is there for you to analyze. Was she wrong to vote "Yes" on Iraq? Absolutely, and she recognizes this herself. But that doesn't erase the rest of her votes as senator. In the rest of your post, you seem to be projecting on her an image based on what can be found on reddit/r/Sanders4president. I suggest again you look at her record and the plans she has put forward to make up your own opinion. She's far from my perfect candidate, but she's really not very different from Obama on most of the issues.
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Korea (South)227 Posts
On February 28 2016 23:17 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 21:24 Orlok wrote: Man, I wish, truly wish, that I could support HRC. However, I just can't believe that she'll pull off anything meaningful in terms of change due to her ever-changing opinions on various hot-potato topics like gay marriage, the consequences of the Iraq War being deemed as a simple "mistake", The beat-downs on the ladies who filed lawsuits against Bill and just so many layers of political mistakes, problems and dishonesty that I guess has become the norm for all politicians, regardless of party. those are honestly pretty not important issues. she has a consistently liberal voting record and outside of conspiratorial fearmongering by leftists who can't tell you the first thing about the actual GATT treaty structure she has been fine. basically anti-trade and extremists on finance reform hate her for little legitimate reason.
Okay, so the suffering the LGBT community has undergone is not "important". The mistreatment and denial of basic human rights are not "important". The veterans who served in Iraq and are now homeless and going through a host of addiction and medical problems out on the streets are not "important". The many people in the middle east who are fleeing their homes as a result of ISIS, a terrorist group spawned by the terrible decisions and anti-american sentiment left by the mess of the Iraq war and the following mess of US occupation are not "important". The poor ladies who filed sexual assault charges against Bill Clinton are all insane, "Narcissistic loony toons" and should be made to shut up forcefully. The killing of the earth via the Keystone pipeline and continued burning of fossil fuels are not "important". The GATT treaty which monopolized the global trading environment, putting most of the trade in the hands of a few huge, TBTF corporations and allowed rich countries to "dump" or basically refuse to prohibit the exporting of agricultural products at prices below their cost of production, killing off the ability of poor countries who wish to gain food self reliance is not "important". Its quite a bold statement to say that the issues above are not important; its equivalent of saying that the many thousands and thousands who did suffer as a result of these policies and issues are irrelevant. Are you sure you would be saying these things aren't important if you suffered from the aftermaths and consequences of these incidents?
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United States42008 Posts
On February 28 2016 19:01 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 14:36 Slaughter wrote:On February 28 2016 14:32 LegalLord wrote:On February 28 2016 11:46 puerk wrote: it has nothing to do with race, the whole cultural concept of race is discredited junk Some people might argue that race isn't real genetically (I disagree and find the experiments used to test this to be very poorly designed). But the cultural concept being not real? That's just demonstrably wrong. There is a very instinctive difference in reaction to seeing a person with white skin vs black skin for anyone who has lived in the US for any amount of time. There are some cultural differences between the US and Germany in that regard (I know I had a very different perspective on this issue before living in the US), but to be blunt you are talking out of your ass when you say that race isn't culturally significant in US politics. You would be hard pressed to find scientists who study genetics or human biology that wouldn't say race is in outdated concept biologically speaking that overly simplifies the nature of human variation. It just has no use and is an inaccurate way to describe humanity. Race as a cultural construct though is very real because we have made it so. Exactly. Human variation exists, but race is a social construct. To quote a previous post of mine: + Show Spoiler +"Races are social constructs which are based on the delimitation of groups when those limits have no objective scientific basis. [...] The point is that on the genetic level the "human races" you referenced make little sense, and that the very traits and characteristics that are used to define "races" in reality exist in spectrums across humanity (or at the very least exist without obvious "breaks"), making any such delimitation arbitrary and socially constructed. You mention anthropology. Have you read the "Race Reconciled: How Biological Anthropologists View Human Variation" special issue of vol. 39, issue 1 of the American Journal of Physical Anthropology (May 2009)? The authors clearly and unambiguously demonstrate that "race is not an accurate or productive way to describe human biological variation" (Heather J.H. Edgar and Keith L. Hunley in the introduction of the special issue, p. 2). You can read a detailed summary of the findings here (this is the page where I initially learned about these papers - I "only" read three of the articles themselves). Here are a few quotes from that summary: In a discussion of Race and global patterns of phenotypic variation, John Relethford plots human skin color variation: "The result is a continuous straight line ranging from the darkest extremes to the lightest extremes in skin color. There are no identifiable clusters. . . . Researchers are of course free to subdivide this continuum into different groups, but such clustering would be arbitrary and subjective in terms of the number of groups and the cutoff points used to distinguish them. The lack of apparent clusters is a reflection of the fact that skin color shows a classic pattern of clinal variation." (2009:17) [...]
Unlike some textbooks and pronouncements which use this information to declare all physical variation is clinal, Relethford proceeds to consider craniometric or skull variation. [...] Relethford considers racial labels as “a culturally constructed label that crudely and imprecisely describes real variation” (2009:20). Variation is real, exists, and has been structured by geography and migration, but the labels we use are a “crude first-order approximation” (2009:21). Relethford uses the example of how we see height as short, medium, and tall: “We tend to use crude labels in everyday life with the realization that they are fuzzy and subjective. I doubt anyone thinks that terms such as ‘short,’ ‘medium,’ and ‘tall’ refer to discrete groups, or that humanity only comes in three values of height!” (2009:21). [...] Current scientific consensus is that craniometrics yields clustered geographic groupings, but those groupings are subjective and arbitrary. [...]
Skin color, like many other racial measures, is continuously variable. Crania may be structured geographically, but classifications based on geographic clusters would be arbitrary. But what about measuring all the bones? Television shows feature forensic anthropologists easily identifying race from skeletal remains. Does that mean race is real?[...] Sauer explains “the successful assignment of race to a skeletal specimen is not a vindication of the race concept, but rather a prediction that an individual, while alive was assigned to a particular socially constructed ‘racial’ category” (1992:107). Forensic anthropologists have samples of bones from many geographic areas, and can classify bones according to what race society has assigned to people with ancestry in those geographic areas. However, examining the bones provides a probability estimate of likely race assignment: “In ascribing a race name to a set of skeletonized remains, the anthropologist is actually translating information about biological traits to a culturally constructed labeling system that was likely to have been applied to a missing person” (1992:109).
Despite the provocative and sometimes misunderstood title, Sauer pleads for forensic anthropologists to better explain what it means to make racial classifications from skeletal remains. He begs forensic anthropologists not to “sail on” without making an effort to expose people “to the notion that perceived races are not reflections of biological reality” (1992:110). We should “not fall into the trap of accepting races as valid biologically discrete categories because we use them so often” (1992:110). [...] What actually happens is forensic anthropologists match bones probabilistically against known existing assortments. Those assortments can be anything socially relevant. Changing the context of bone discovery could lead to different predictive classification–of the same bones: “The use of different priors also shows the importance of prior information, as ‘Mr. Johnson’ would have been classified as a Pacific Islander had his remains been found on Hawaii and as an ‘American Black’ had his remains been found in Gary, Indiana” (Konigsberg et al. 2009:83). [...]
Even after proving the continuous variation of skin tones, and even after showing how bones and skulls do not confirm traditional race classifications, there is still the sense that genetics offers real proof of race. Genetic testing companies amplify this misconception in a rush to market ancestry, while pharmaceutical companies sell race-targeted medications.
[...] Genetic classifications of races outside of Sub-Saharan Africa are simply subsets of Sub-Saharan African diversity. Moreover, and perhaps most strangely, “a classification that takes into account evolutionary relationships and the nested pattern of diversity would require that Sub-Saharan Africans are not a race because the most exclusive group that includes all Sub-Saharan African populations also includes every non-Sub-Saharan African population” (Long et al. 2009:32).
[...] This evolutionary history is explained in the article The global pattern of gene identity variation reveals a history of long-range migrations, bottlenecks, and local mate exchange: Implications for biological race. Once again, sophisticated techniques reveal a “nested pattern of genetic structure that is inconsistent with the existence of independently evolving biological races” (Hunley et al. 2009:35). The authors confirm greater genetic variation within Sub-Saharan Africa, and all other humans are a sub-set of this variation. Taxonomic classifications of race cannot account for observed genetic diversity. [...]" In short, and as I said, variation among humans obviously exists (nobody is claiming otherwise), but races are social constructs." Anyway, amazing result from Clinton! I hope this will lead Sanders to concede sooner than later (hopefully after March 1st, but after March the 15th at the latest), and work with Clinton against the Republican nominee. Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 09:32 KwarK wrote: If that statistic is accurate it must be frustrating as hell for Sanders to win the socially conscious white college educated "we must do something to address the root causes of inequality and racism in our society" vote and then lose the black vote. Are you implying that the African Americans who voted for Clinton in SC are not socially conscious? Or educated? Or don't think we must "do something to address the root causes of inequality and racism in our society"? Also, Clinton won the "college graduate" and "postgraduate" demographics 70% to 30%. She also actually won the "white college graduate" demographic you're referring to, 52% to 48%. Yes, statistically the black southern population is less educated and less informed about national politics.
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Korea (South)227 Posts
On February 29 2016 00:20 kwizach wrote: 1. I'm not sure which scandals you're referring to other than the one related to her use of a private e-mail server, which is a complete non-issue in terms of what she would do as president. 2. I'm not sure what's supposed to be "unbelievable" about what I linked you to. Her record of votes is there for you to analyze. Was she wrong to vote "Yes" on Iraq? Absolutely, and she recognizes this herself. But that doesn't erase the rest of her votes as senator. In the rest of your post, you seem to be projecting on her an image based on what can be found on reddit/r/Sanders4president. I suggest again you look at her record and the plans she has put forward to make up your own opinion. She's far from my perfect candidate, but she's really not very different from Obama on most of the issues. The email server is a point against her honesty. Only one of them, and perhaps again not the most irrelevant, but still a major point against the level of trust we can put into her. She'll be the face of America internationally, and it will definitely hurt if the image she has internationally is one of a liar. Was she wrong to vote? Yes. did she recognize this? Yes. Did she recognize this only after the storm had settled and everyone came to the realization that is was an awful and hasty move? Yes. The fact that she's identical to Obama is the reason why its bad. Obama was not necessarily a bad president, but he leaned more to the center/right during his 8 years as president, and failed to establish a more fairer economic system after the 07-08 crisis. Neo-liberalism is in a critical state ever since its mainstay image in politics in the 80's. It has created a rigged economic system, including my country of South Korea, with the chaebol (similar to the billionaire class) control literally everything in the country, from trade to economic lines to politics. With continued inequality with the top 1% and the rest of the country and more corruption being found in government lines, I think its a good(no, I'll be honest, great) idea to push away from the system that birthed this some 30 years of growing inequality and push towards a fairer system, where wealth is distributed fairly, and not like the current way the US is now. While it may sound cliche to continue paying more attention to the economy, the point is that too many pressing issues are tied with the economic system. The chaebol are getting off scott free whilst polluting the environment. If they commit a crime they are much more likely to be pardoned to simply get off again scott free. I would like to see fairness, which is the whole basic idea of democracy so championed by Clinton and the Chaebol influenced politicians in my country come back to the people. I don't think after 8 years of even worse inequality levels, so bad that many people in my country are calling Korea "HellChosun" that its a great thing to have to see a terrible candidate whose buried with the current neo-liberal establishment beat a more honest candidate because she has had more time to build a firewall with influence peddling.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On February 29 2016 00:22 Orlok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 23:17 oneofthem wrote:On February 28 2016 21:24 Orlok wrote: Man, I wish, truly wish, that I could support HRC. However, I just can't believe that she'll pull off anything meaningful in terms of change due to her ever-changing opinions on various hot-potato topics like gay marriage, the consequences of the Iraq War being deemed as a simple "mistake", The beat-downs on the ladies who filed lawsuits against Bill and just so many layers of political mistakes, problems and dishonesty that I guess has become the norm for all politicians, regardless of party. those are honestly pretty not important issues. she has a consistently liberal voting record and outside of conspiratorial fearmongering by leftists who can't tell you the first thing about the actual GATT treaty structure she has been fine. basically anti-trade and extremists on finance reform hate her for little legitimate reason. Okay, so the suffering the LGBT community has undergone is not "important". The mistreatment and denial of basic human rights are not "important". The veterans who served in Iraq and are now homeless and going through a host of addiction and medical problems out on the streets are not "important". The many people in the middle east who are fleeing their homes as a result of ISIS, a terrorist group spawned by the terrible decisions and anti-american sentiment left by the mess of the Iraq war and the following mess of US occupation are not "important". The poor ladies who filed sexual assault charges against Bill Clinton are all insane, "Narcissistic loony toons" and should be made to shut up forcefully. The killing of the earth via the Keystone pipeline and continued burning of fossil fuels are not "important". The GATT treaty which monopolized the global trading environment, putting most of the trade in the hands of a few huge, TBTF corporations and allowed rich countries to "dump" or basically refuse to prohibit the exporting of agricultural products at prices below their cost of production, killing off the ability of poor countries who wish to gain food self reliance is not "important". Its quite a bold statement to say that the issues above are not important; its equivalent of saying that the many thousands and thousands who did suffer as a result of these policies and issues are irrelevant, and that their contributions to making America a great society is not worth mentioning. Are you sure these issues are not important and worth putting time and effort into solving? social issues cant be moved except by actual change in social support, so politicians are basically proxy of their base. it is not like hillary stopped this from progressing unlike the actual opponents of gay equality.
as far as gatt u just reaffirmed my statement
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Korea (South)227 Posts
On February 29 2016 00:33 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2016 00:22 Orlok wrote:On February 28 2016 23:17 oneofthem wrote:On February 28 2016 21:24 Orlok wrote: Man, I wish, truly wish, that I could support HRC. However, I just can't believe that she'll pull off anything meaningful in terms of change due to her ever-changing opinions on various hot-potato topics like gay marriage, the consequences of the Iraq War being deemed as a simple "mistake", The beat-downs on the ladies who filed lawsuits against Bill and just so many layers of political mistakes, problems and dishonesty that I guess has become the norm for all politicians, regardless of party. those are honestly pretty not important issues. she has a consistently liberal voting record and outside of conspiratorial fearmongering by leftists who can't tell you the first thing about the actual GATT treaty structure she has been fine. basically anti-trade and extremists on finance reform hate her for little legitimate reason. Okay, so the suffering the LGBT community has undergone is not "important". The mistreatment and denial of basic human rights are not "important". The veterans who served in Iraq and are now homeless and going through a host of addiction and medical problems out on the streets are not "important". The many people in the middle east who are fleeing their homes as a result of ISIS, a terrorist group spawned by the terrible decisions and anti-american sentiment left by the mess of the Iraq war and the following mess of US occupation are not "important". The poor ladies who filed sexual assault charges against Bill Clinton are all insane, "Narcissistic loony toons" and should be made to shut up forcefully. The killing of the earth via the Keystone pipeline and continued burning of fossil fuels are not "important". The GATT treaty which monopolized the global trading environment, putting most of the trade in the hands of a few huge, TBTF corporations and allowed rich countries to "dump" or basically refuse to prohibit the exporting of agricultural products at prices below their cost of production, killing off the ability of poor countries who wish to gain food self reliance is not "important". Its quite a bold statement to say that the issues above are not important; its equivalent of saying that the many thousands and thousands who did suffer as a result of these policies and issues are irrelevant, and that their contributions to making America a great society is not worth mentioning. Are you sure these issues are not important and worth putting time and effort into solving? social issues cant be moved except by actual change in social support, so politicians are basically proxy of their base. it is not like hillary stopped this from progressing unlike the actual opponents of gay equality. as far as gatt u just reaffirmed my statement Ugh. Social issues can't be moved except by actual change huh? Well it would help much more if politicians would speak up about it, as they have the influence to actually pull attention towards the problem and the solution. Hillary HAS indirectly stopped gay rights from being considered something to help with her whole "I believe marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman" nonsense she said back in 08. It certainly didn't HELP the LGBT movement move forward towards its goals. It seems hypocritical to say that she was a supporter of Gay rights her entire career when clearly its been just a few years since she made the change to fit with the mood of the democratic party. Are you saying GATT is/was a good policy? I'm confused with what you said about me reaffirming.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
on the korean chaebols it would be precisely wrong to say they were product of free trade. more like creation of state privilege and their influence has been towards more protectionism in korea. see https://web.stanford.edu/group/sjeaa/journal102/10-2_09 Korea-Powers.pdf
for a history
the left seems to use neoliberalism as a catchall phrase for the happenings to global economic structure while attributing these events to a simple idea. this is far from qccurate would expand if i have more time
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On February 29 2016 00:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 19:01 kwizach wrote:On February 28 2016 14:36 Slaughter wrote:On February 28 2016 14:32 LegalLord wrote:On February 28 2016 11:46 puerk wrote: it has nothing to do with race, the whole cultural concept of race is discredited junk Some people might argue that race isn't real genetically (I disagree and find the experiments used to test this to be very poorly designed). But the cultural concept being not real? That's just demonstrably wrong. There is a very instinctive difference in reaction to seeing a person with white skin vs black skin for anyone who has lived in the US for any amount of time. There are some cultural differences between the US and Germany in that regard (I know I had a very different perspective on this issue before living in the US), but to be blunt you are talking out of your ass when you say that race isn't culturally significant in US politics. You would be hard pressed to find scientists who study genetics or human biology that wouldn't say race is in outdated concept biologically speaking that overly simplifies the nature of human variation. It just has no use and is an inaccurate way to describe humanity. Race as a cultural construct though is very real because we have made it so. Exactly. Human variation exists, but race is a social construct. To quote a previous post of mine: + Show Spoiler +"Races are social constructs which are based on the delimitation of groups when those limits have no objective scientific basis. [...] The point is that on the genetic level the "human races" you referenced make little sense, and that the very traits and characteristics that are used to define "races" in reality exist in spectrums across humanity (or at the very least exist without obvious "breaks"), making any such delimitation arbitrary and socially constructed. You mention anthropology. Have you read the "Race Reconciled: How Biological Anthropologists View Human Variation" special issue of vol. 39, issue 1 of the American Journal of Physical Anthropology (May 2009)? The authors clearly and unambiguously demonstrate that "race is not an accurate or productive way to describe human biological variation" (Heather J.H. Edgar and Keith L. Hunley in the introduction of the special issue, p. 2). You can read a detailed summary of the findings here (this is the page where I initially learned about these papers - I "only" read three of the articles themselves). Here are a few quotes from that summary: In a discussion of Race and global patterns of phenotypic variation, John Relethford plots human skin color variation: "The result is a continuous straight line ranging from the darkest extremes to the lightest extremes in skin color. There are no identifiable clusters. . . . Researchers are of course free to subdivide this continuum into different groups, but such clustering would be arbitrary and subjective in terms of the number of groups and the cutoff points used to distinguish them. The lack of apparent clusters is a reflection of the fact that skin color shows a classic pattern of clinal variation." (2009:17) [...]
Unlike some textbooks and pronouncements which use this information to declare all physical variation is clinal, Relethford proceeds to consider craniometric or skull variation. [...] Relethford considers racial labels as “a culturally constructed label that crudely and imprecisely describes real variation” (2009:20). Variation is real, exists, and has been structured by geography and migration, but the labels we use are a “crude first-order approximation” (2009:21). Relethford uses the example of how we see height as short, medium, and tall: “We tend to use crude labels in everyday life with the realization that they are fuzzy and subjective. I doubt anyone thinks that terms such as ‘short,’ ‘medium,’ and ‘tall’ refer to discrete groups, or that humanity only comes in three values of height!” (2009:21). [...] Current scientific consensus is that craniometrics yields clustered geographic groupings, but those groupings are subjective and arbitrary. [...]
Skin color, like many other racial measures, is continuously variable. Crania may be structured geographically, but classifications based on geographic clusters would be arbitrary. But what about measuring all the bones? Television shows feature forensic anthropologists easily identifying race from skeletal remains. Does that mean race is real?[...] Sauer explains “the successful assignment of race to a skeletal specimen is not a vindication of the race concept, but rather a prediction that an individual, while alive was assigned to a particular socially constructed ‘racial’ category” (1992:107). Forensic anthropologists have samples of bones from many geographic areas, and can classify bones according to what race society has assigned to people with ancestry in those geographic areas. However, examining the bones provides a probability estimate of likely race assignment: “In ascribing a race name to a set of skeletonized remains, the anthropologist is actually translating information about biological traits to a culturally constructed labeling system that was likely to have been applied to a missing person” (1992:109).
Despite the provocative and sometimes misunderstood title, Sauer pleads for forensic anthropologists to better explain what it means to make racial classifications from skeletal remains. He begs forensic anthropologists not to “sail on” without making an effort to expose people “to the notion that perceived races are not reflections of biological reality” (1992:110). We should “not fall into the trap of accepting races as valid biologically discrete categories because we use them so often” (1992:110). [...] What actually happens is forensic anthropologists match bones probabilistically against known existing assortments. Those assortments can be anything socially relevant. Changing the context of bone discovery could lead to different predictive classification–of the same bones: “The use of different priors also shows the importance of prior information, as ‘Mr. Johnson’ would have been classified as a Pacific Islander had his remains been found on Hawaii and as an ‘American Black’ had his remains been found in Gary, Indiana” (Konigsberg et al. 2009:83). [...]
Even after proving the continuous variation of skin tones, and even after showing how bones and skulls do not confirm traditional race classifications, there is still the sense that genetics offers real proof of race. Genetic testing companies amplify this misconception in a rush to market ancestry, while pharmaceutical companies sell race-targeted medications.
[...] Genetic classifications of races outside of Sub-Saharan Africa are simply subsets of Sub-Saharan African diversity. Moreover, and perhaps most strangely, “a classification that takes into account evolutionary relationships and the nested pattern of diversity would require that Sub-Saharan Africans are not a race because the most exclusive group that includes all Sub-Saharan African populations also includes every non-Sub-Saharan African population” (Long et al. 2009:32).
[...] This evolutionary history is explained in the article The global pattern of gene identity variation reveals a history of long-range migrations, bottlenecks, and local mate exchange: Implications for biological race. Once again, sophisticated techniques reveal a “nested pattern of genetic structure that is inconsistent with the existence of independently evolving biological races” (Hunley et al. 2009:35). The authors confirm greater genetic variation within Sub-Saharan Africa, and all other humans are a sub-set of this variation. Taxonomic classifications of race cannot account for observed genetic diversity. [...]" In short, and as I said, variation among humans obviously exists (nobody is claiming otherwise), but races are social constructs." Anyway, amazing result from Clinton! I hope this will lead Sanders to concede sooner than later (hopefully after March 1st, but after March the 15th at the latest), and work with Clinton against the Republican nominee. On February 28 2016 09:32 KwarK wrote: If that statistic is accurate it must be frustrating as hell for Sanders to win the socially conscious white college educated "we must do something to address the root causes of inequality and racism in our society" vote and then lose the black vote. Are you implying that the African Americans who voted for Clinton in SC are not socially conscious? Or educated? Or don't think we must "do something to address the root causes of inequality and racism in our society"? Also, Clinton won the "college graduate" and "postgraduate" demographics 70% to 30%. She also actually won the "white college graduate" demographic you're referring to, 52% to 48%. Yes, statistically the black southern population is less educated and less informed about national politics. 1. You wrote Sanders won the "socially conscious white college educated [...] vote". He didn't. Clinton did. 2. Clinton won the black college educated vote as well. 3. The "black vote" includes plenty of socially conscious, college educated voters. 4. Not being college educated doesn't make one not "socially conscious" and willing to "address the root causes of inequality and racism in our society". 5. You were clearly opposing the "socially conscious college educated vote", which you associated with "white", on the one hand, and the "black vote" on the other hand. Let's leave racist undertones to republicans, shall we?
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Korea (South)227 Posts
My man, I am talking about the chaebol OUTSIDE of the books and papers. I LIVE here. I have seen many friends and their family's being screwed over by the lack of honesty these guys pull off. Doosan corporation, after investing so many ads saying "people are the future" said screw it, we're going down economically due to poor decision making, you're all fired....except the staff officers and managers who are family members or friends kids and relatives. There have been legendary cases with Samsung refusing to pay medical bills for a worker who got diagnosed with cancer after working in their facility. I;m just not caring what they came from- the point is is that they control the workings and true influence of the country, much like the billionaires in America. President Lee Myung Bak, when asked to visit Lee Keon Hee, the past CEO of Samsung, one of the biggest chaebols in KR visited him AT LEE's samsung grounds. It tells a lot about the strength of the chaebol when the PRESIDENT goes to the chaebols home to visit him for an official meeting and not the chaebol leader coming to the Blue tile house instead. Their influence has been protectionism? Protectionism of themselves maybe. But their arrogance is pissing me off and most of the citizens here as well. Ever hear of the legendary "peanut" accident by Cho Hyun Ah who made the plane go back to the terminal because she didn't like the way the stewardess OPENED A DAMN PEANUT BAG? Oh and by the way she only got sentenced 1 year in jail officially, and probably just spent a couple of weeks inside the house before discreetly coming back to her great life. Most of the chaebol members have high ranking positions within their respective companies and sister-companies, and their rank far outstrips their experience and age. We have CEO's and managerial directors who are in the ripe ages of their 30's and 40's. No sane company actually promotes a damn CEO when they're only in their 40's unless you're family. Their influence is a bad thing, and I wish to see a political establishment that will put them in their fair place. It would help EXTREMELY if the country so many chaebols follow as an excuse for their economic abuse, which is America would pull off the unthinkable and implement massive change in the economic system for all other countries to follow. But hey, its just me being too radical.
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