In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Just goes to show you what a fractured country we live in. The perceived reality in the South is completely separate from elsewhere in the country. I'm not surprised. It's been this way for a long time.
All the talk of the "black vote" seems a bit overstated. Bernie has been able to get a lot of the minority vote in other parts of the country. The South in general is just a different beast. I can only guess what it must be like to be a Democrat living in the South...
it has nothing to do with race, the whole cultural concept of race is discredited junk
the problem are disenfrenchised communities that can not believe the system works, and participating in the system will work for them... when you basically make a continued effort for centuries now to fuck up communities, it will work.... and the results of that work will be hard to reverse even over decades of effort... not that i see anything that makes me believe the US has already started such an effort in earnest
p.s. that is why talking about a black president as an end of rasicm was such a bullshit idea, the problem was never about race in the first place it was about social strata and easy scapegoating of "others", rascism was just one vehicle employed because it worked so well in a country so focussed on mass slavery for so long
On February 28 2016 06:23 Danglars wrote: When government ventures beyond infrastructure and defense and into redistribution, who's to say it's the better spender? It's that the taxes it takes it are badly spent, and spent above its means, that makes it a far wiser move to not take so much from the American taxpayer that spends his own money much better than an entity transferring other people's money to other people.
1) The world governments that matter all spend above their "means" - the US is no exception. Their purpose is fundamentally different than a businesses' which is why they're able to adjust what their means are in order to accomplish it.
2) With that logic, why are you even extending government domain to infrastructure and defense? Why don't you think private institutions could handle infrastructure and defense better?
Fundamentally different too, given its ability to hide future liabilities from the balance sheet. Businessmen would be in prison for cooking the books. World governments do have the same sickness and are weathering the same ill effects. Poor growth, heavy emphasis to move the company to tax havens. We're not quite exceptional in that problem (lol) it's just when everybody got the same sickness it makes commiserating so much happier. You can take a look at the heaviest debtor countries to see what happens when the debt grows too large to be repaid. Just taking the US into consideration, servicing the debt will soon grow to more than defense spending (this year alone, interest spending . Social security and the various health care programs will balloon. The long term effect is there's no tax policy that will pay these debts without reforms. There isn't enough ability to adjust their means to cope with the ballooning debt and neither party is willing to cut outlays.
I took infrastructure and defense as examples because they were provided for in the constitution. The social contract that the current government's founders signed on to voluntarily surrendered some rights for mutual benefit. The big mess of welfare expenditure and redistribution (but with today's levels I restate myself) is a relatively modern change. It surprised the father of the constitution, Madison, in less than a decade after passage that Congress appropriated fifteen grand for French refugees. He said, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." That is what underpins my scruples. The citizen's government is acting in a way contrary to its design, but the distortion and greed is without a check, much like a populist in a banana republic before its collapse. The people vote themselves into soft despotism and then tyranny.
I want to turn this ship of state around towards limited government. Clinton and Bernie would keep it going in the same direction faster; Trump won't turn it but might slow it down, I'm not sure. If there's ever a remarkable change in political climate, call it the next incarnation of Reagan without a cold war to fight if you want, then we can talk about remaking public works and defense. I'm not happy with the bureaucratic Pentagon and I'm sure private industry can do it better. Today that'd just be one more over-regulated boondoggle and there's much more important issues to address.
A next incarnation of Reagan "without a cold war to fight"? What fantasy are you living in? Reagan is responsible for the modern surge in deficit spending, and all that money pouring into the defense sector functioned as a Keynesian stimulus that is largely responsible for the prosperity that people associate with Reagan.
And the left will keep spinning it until the cows came home. I have to admit that the one-two of "defense is Keynesian stimulus" and "that is largely responsible for the prosperity" is a great piece of theatre. Fact is, you can't do it all as President. You have to focus on a couple things and drill them through, over the tops of the great party of obstructionists, the Democrat party. The cold war required tireless effort. He managed to get the tax cuts passed, unleashing an era of business growth and revenue growth that was thought impossible at the time. Clinton tried to snag some of that glory, but again his election was the weakness of his opponents and the thought that in prosperity, how bad can the Dems do? Reagan couldn't properly address Congress's runaway spending through it all. He needed the defense spending until the USSR was history. It's a shame he couldn't do it all, which is why I mused previously about a second coming.
I really wonder what you'll be saying about the Obama years in three decades and whether I'll laugh as much then.
On February 28 2016 11:46 puerk wrote: it has nothing to do with race, the whole cultural concept of race is discredited junk
Some people might argue that race isn't real genetically (I disagree and find the experiments used to test this to be very poorly designed). But the cultural concept being not real? That's just demonstrably wrong. There is a very instinctive difference in reaction to seeing a person with white skin vs black skin for anyone who has lived in the US for any amount of time. There are some cultural differences between the US and Germany in that regard (I know I had a very different perspective on this issue before living in the US), but to be blunt you are talking out of your ass when you say that race isn't culturally significant in US politics.
On February 28 2016 11:46 puerk wrote: it has nothing to do with race, the whole cultural concept of race is discredited junk
Some people might argue that race isn't real genetically (I disagree and find the experiments used to test this to be very poorly designed). But the cultural concept being not real? That's just demonstrably wrong. There is a very instinctive difference in reaction to seeing a person with white skin vs black skin for anyone who has lived in the US for any amount of time. There are some cultural differences between the US and Germany in that regard (I know I had a very different perspective on this issue before living in the US), but to be blunt you are talking out of your ass when you say that race isn't culturally significant in US politics.
You would be hard pressed to find scientists who study genetics or human biology that wouldn't say race is in outdated concept biologically speaking that overly simplifies the nature of human variation. It just has no use and is an inaccurate way to describe humanity. Race as a cultural construct though is very real because we have made it so.
On February 28 2016 10:01 GreenHorizons wrote: The question Bernie needs to ask black voters that say they want to "continue PBO's policies" is
"How is this economy working out for you?"
You are dangerously close to insinuating black people cant think for themselves.
You do know that GH is black, right? He's saying that a gap exists between loyalty to someone seen as "one's own" and the deserved loyalty of actually helpful policy. This is basically the standard liberal critique of the Cruz voter.
You don't need any experiments to 'disprove' that race isn't real, it's a taxonomic construct that people came up with as a political tool, there's not even any formal biological definition of it, so there are no experiments to be had, but good that we still need to discuss race theory as if it is the 1930's. And the only thing that's worth saying about the cultural one is that we ought to get rid of it.
On February 28 2016 11:46 puerk wrote: it has nothing to do with race, the whole cultural concept of race is discredited junk
Some people might argue that race isn't real genetically (I disagree and find the experiments used to test this to be very poorly designed). But the cultural concept being not real? That's just demonstrably wrong. There is a very instinctive difference in reaction to seeing a person with white skin vs black skin for anyone who has lived in the US for any amount of time. There are some cultural differences between the US and Germany in that regard (I know I had a very different perspective on this issue before living in the US), but to be blunt you are talking out of your ass when you say that race isn't culturally significant in US politics.
You would be hard pressed to find scientists who study genetics or human biology that wouldn't say race is in outdated concept biologically speaking that overly simplifies the nature of human variation. It just has no use and is an inaccurate way to describe humanity. Race as a cultural construct though is very real because we have made it so.
Having studied genetics and knowing people who work as geneticists, I can say with a good degree of certainty that we do not have enough understanding of how genetics work to make any claims so conclusively (though the field has evolved a fair bit over the past few decades).
A longstanding orthodoxy among social scientists holds that human races are a social construct and have no biological basis. A related assumption is that human evolution halted in the distant past, so long ago that evolutionary explanations need never be considered by historians or economists.
In the decade since the decoding of the human genome, a growing wealth of data has made clear that these two positions, never at all likely to begin with, are simply incorrect. There is indeed a biological basis for race. And it is now beyond doubt that human evolution is a continuous process that has proceeded vigorously within the last 30,000 years and almost certainly — though very recent evolution is hard to measure — throughout the historical period and up until the present day.
A lot of what people think is true about genetics comes from the pseudobiological social sciences such as psychology rather than from actual biology/genetics.
Your right genetics is evolving fast, which makes using the race concept even more untenable. Race is overly simplistic and basically forces a person to artificially group people in ways that end up not making sense. Are there some people who still use vestiges of the terminology? Yes but they know how problematic it is. Hell of course you can find those that still believe in race as a biological concept, but they are a minority.
You also know that the author of the article you linked is NOT a scientist but wrote a book about biological basis of race that was raked over the coals by the scientific community? Who thinks that it was a conspiracy by liberals post ww2? I am sorry but your source has 0 credibility and there are many wrong ways he both presents and interprets data in his book, nor does his opinion speak for the scientific community.
Human biologists have been moving away from the race concept for decades and the genetics have only shown their choice to be the correct one. As Frank Livingstone said way back in 1962 "There are no races, only clines".
On February 28 2016 15:28 Slaughter wrote: Your right genetics is evolving fast, which makes using the race concept even more untenable. Race is overly simplistic and basically forces a person to artificially group people in ways that end up not making sense. Are there some people who still use vestiges of the terminology? Yes but they know how problematic it is. Hell of course you can find those that still believe in race as a biological concept, but they are a minority.
Seems like you're arguing mostly for the fact that it's not descriptive enough and should be replaced by more useful terms (e.g. ancestry) more than that it isn't real. Which is fair and not really what I was arguing about. I mostly disagree with the strong claim that "race doesn't exist and genetically all races are equal in all ways" which seems to be a very naive and unfortunately common interpretation of the idea that race isn't the proper term for describing genetic variation between groups of people.
Not really too keen to talk more about this because my response was primarily to the assertion that "race doesn't exist culturally" and this is an aside.
In other news: it appears that Trump's strategy this entire Republican primary campaign has been to bring people down to his level and to beat them with experience. Lot of random stupid spats between Trump, Cruz, and Rubio in the past few days that make all of them look like morons.
On February 28 2016 11:15 strongwind wrote: Just goes to show you what a fractured country we live in. The perceived reality in the South is completely separate from elsewhere in the country. I'm not surprised. It's been this way for a long time.
Maybe it would be more logical if South & North were separate countries then. Oh wait, I seem to remember something about that
On February 28 2016 11:46 puerk wrote: it has nothing to do with race, the whole cultural concept of race is discredited junk
Some people might argue that race isn't real genetically (I disagree and find the experiments used to test this to be very poorly designed). But the cultural concept being not real? That's just demonstrably wrong. There is a very instinctive difference in reaction to seeing a person with white skin vs black skin for anyone who has lived in the US for any amount of time. There are some cultural differences between the US and Germany in that regard (I know I had a very different perspective on this issue before living in the US), but to be blunt you are talking out of your ass when you say that race isn't culturally significant in US politics.
You would be hard pressed to find scientists who study genetics or human biology that wouldn't say race is in outdated concept biologically speaking that overly simplifies the nature of human variation. It just has no use and is an inaccurate way to describe humanity. Race as a cultural construct though is very real because we have made it so.
Exactly. Human variation exists, but race is a social construct. To quote a previous post of mine:
"Races are social constructs which are based on the delimitation of groups when those limits have no objective scientific basis. [...] The point is that on the genetic level the "human races" you referenced make little sense, and that the very traits and characteristics that are used to define "races" in reality exist in spectrums across humanity (or at the very least exist without obvious "breaks"), making any such delimitation arbitrary and socially constructed.
You mention anthropology. Have you read the "Race Reconciled: How Biological Anthropologists View Human Variation" special issue of vol. 39, issue 1 of the American Journal of Physical Anthropology (May 2009)? The authors clearly and unambiguously demonstrate that "race is not an accurate or productive way to describe human biological variation" (Heather J.H. Edgar and Keith L. Hunley in the introduction of the special issue, p. 2). You can read a detailed summary of the findings here (this is the page where I initially learned about these papers - I "only" read three of the articles themselves). Here are a few quotes from that summary:
In a discussion of Race and global patterns of phenotypic variation, John Relethford plots human skin color variation: "The result is a continuous straight line ranging from the darkest extremes to the lightest extremes in skin color. There are no identifiable clusters. . . . Researchers are of course free to subdivide this continuum into different groups, but such clustering would be arbitrary and subjective in terms of the number of groups and the cutoff points used to distinguish them. The lack of apparent clusters is a reflection of the fact that skin color shows a classic pattern of clinal variation." (2009:17) [...]
Unlike some textbooks and pronouncements which use this information to declare all physical variation is clinal, Relethford proceeds to consider craniometric or skull variation. [...] Relethford considers racial labels as “a culturally constructed label that crudely and imprecisely describes real variation” (2009:20). Variation is real, exists, and has been structured by geography and migration, but the labels we use are a “crude first-order approximation” (2009:21). Relethford uses the example of how we see height as short, medium, and tall: “We tend to use crude labels in everyday life with the realization that they are fuzzy and subjective. I doubt anyone thinks that terms such as ‘short,’ ‘medium,’ and ‘tall’ refer to discrete groups, or that humanity only comes in three values of height!” (2009:21). [...] Current scientific consensus is that craniometrics yields clustered geographic groupings, but those groupings are subjective and arbitrary. [...]
Skin color, like many other racial measures, is continuously variable. Crania may be structured geographically, but classifications based on geographic clusters would be arbitrary. But what about measuring all the bones? Television shows feature forensic anthropologists easily identifying race from skeletal remains. Does that mean race is real?[...] Sauer explains “the successful assignment of race to a skeletal specimen is not a vindication of the race concept, but rather a prediction that an individual, while alive was assigned to a particular socially constructed ‘racial’ category” (1992:107). Forensic anthropologists have samples of bones from many geographic areas, and can classify bones according to what race society has assigned to people with ancestry in those geographic areas. However, examining the bones provides a probability estimate of likely race assignment: “In ascribing a race name to a set of skeletonized remains, the anthropologist is actually translating information about biological traits to a culturally constructed labeling system that was likely to have been applied to a missing person” (1992:109).
Despite the provocative and sometimes misunderstood title, Sauer pleads for forensic anthropologists to better explain what it means to make racial classifications from skeletal remains. He begs forensic anthropologists not to “sail on” without making an effort to expose people “to the notion that perceived races are not reflections of biological reality” (1992:110). We should “not fall into the trap of accepting races as valid biologically discrete categories because we use them so often” (1992:110). [...] What actually happens is forensic anthropologists match bones probabilistically against known existing assortments. Those assortments can be anything socially relevant. Changing the context of bone discovery could lead to different predictive classification–of the same bones: “The use of different priors also shows the importance of prior information, as ‘Mr. Johnson’ would have been classified as a Pacific Islander had his remains been found on Hawaii and as an ‘American Black’ had his remains been found in Gary, Indiana” (Konigsberg et al. 2009:83). [...]
Even after proving the continuous variation of skin tones, and even after showing how bones and skulls do not confirm traditional race classifications, there is still the sense that genetics offers real proof of race. Genetic testing companies amplify this misconception in a rush to market ancestry, while pharmaceutical companies sell race-targeted medications.
[...] Genetic classifications of races outside of Sub-Saharan Africa are simply subsets of Sub-Saharan African diversity. Moreover, and perhaps most strangely, “a classification that takes into account evolutionary relationships and the nested pattern of diversity would require that Sub-Saharan Africans are not a race because the most exclusive group that includes all Sub-Saharan African populations also includes every non-Sub-Saharan African population” (Long et al. 2009:32).
[...] This evolutionary history is explained in the article The global pattern of gene identity variation reveals a history of long-range migrations, bottlenecks, and local mate exchange: Implications for biological race. Once again, sophisticated techniques reveal a “nested pattern of genetic structure that is inconsistent with the existence of independently evolving biological races” (Hunley et al. 2009:35). The authors confirm greater genetic variation within Sub-Saharan Africa, and all other humans are a sub-set of this variation. Taxonomic classifications of race cannot account for observed genetic diversity. [...]"
In short, and as I said, variation among humans obviously exists (nobody is claiming otherwise), but races are social constructs."
Anyway, amazing result from Clinton! I hope this will lead Sanders to concede sooner than later (hopefully after March 1st, but after March the 15th at the latest), and work with Clinton against the Republican nominee.
On February 28 2016 09:32 KwarK wrote: If that statistic is accurate it must be frustrating as hell for Sanders to win the socially conscious white college educated "we must do something to address the root causes of inequality and racism in our society" vote and then lose the black vote.
Are you implying that the African Americans who voted for Clinton in SC are not socially conscious? Or educated? Or don't think we must "do something to address the root causes of inequality and racism in our society"? Also, Clinton won the "college graduate" and "postgraduate" demographics 70% to 30%. She also actually won the "white college graduate" demographic you're referring to, 52% to 48%.
Anyway, amazing result from Clinton! I hope this will lead Sanders to concede sooner than later (hopefully after March 1st, but after March the 15th at the latest), and work with Clinton against the Republican nominee.
I'm not to familiar with the american political process (as im from Europe), but is there a advantage for the candidate, who drops out, to do it early? I was under the impression that you could gain some kind of "leverage" over your party, if you run up enough delegates in the primary.
I could see dropping out as viable, when there are winner-take-all systems in place, but in the democratic primary, everything is proportional, so he would maximize his influence by just hanging in and cashing in even 20-25 percent in every state?
Man, I wish, truly wish, that I could support HRC. However, I just can't believe that she'll pull off anything meaningful in terms of change due to her ever-changing opinions on various hot-potato topics like gay marriage, the consequences of the Iraq War being deemed as a simple "mistake", The beat-downs on the ladies who filed lawsuits against Bill and just so many layers of political mistakes, problems and dishonesty that I guess has become the norm for all politicians, regardless of party. I would like any HRC follower/supporter to just answer this; do you honestly believe, after looking at her track record so far which from a objective point of view most people would say isn't anything close to progressive and seeking true change, that she WILL bring about the various changes she has proposed? The various scandals and problems she has, such as her massive ties to Wall street show me a person who is a self proclaimed progressive who promises change whilst trying as best as she can to sever any and all attention away from her actual resume, which suggests a neo-liberal supporter (which is a system that is destined to finally stop due to the continued inequality in the countries that push for it) and a very aggressive war-hawk foreign policy(just look at how aggressively she pushed the wrong way in Iraq, Syria and Lybia to name a few) and a typical politician who changes their views because its the opinion of the general populace and not something that they truly believe in? Just look at the definitive view she had against gay marriage all the way back in 08, and with the swathes of LGBT movements and the general shift of view how she also decided to jump on the tide to salvage a career. Im just a person living in South Korea, so I can't actually vote or do anything meaningful in the polls right now and forever. However, as a person who is notoriously fed up with the KR political system which is basically a copy paste of the US system with a double party rigged election-choose the lesser evil type, I wish to see a Bernie Sanders win send a true message to all countries who currently suffer under the supposed democracy put forth by the corrupt government system and the ruling elites; the actual owners of the country under democracy are the people, and don't you forget it. I am not going to say that people who vote for Hillary are completely idiotic to make that choice, but just from a logical standpoint I can't see where you are getting the faith to support her from. I have read plenty of books and articles about her and her career, and its plain to me that she is just a typical politican, not necessarily corrupt in the sense like Trump, or morally corrupt, but corrupt in the sense that she cares more for her legacy and gain than the people. Where does that belief come from? If you argue that its for a feminist movement by the way, HRC isn't going to be, with her extremely problematic resume a very good role model as a feminist. It just shows right now that the gender cloud surrounding her makes it easier to get away with terrible deeds. If HRC was a man, without any help from the Clinton legacy she would basically be the O'Mally of today; no chance in hell to win. Again, I just want to hear a truly logical argument where HRC supporters get their faith from. We vote for a president because we believe they can bring about good change to the current status quo and that they will truly represent OUR best interests. Her record clearly shows she cares a great deal more about her own interest than ours. Please show me some good evidence of WHY its plausible to believe her. Please dont answer this post with swearing and saying im a Bernie Bro or some other demeaning method HRC has put towards Bernie Sanders and their supporters. I just want to know, despite all the facts I have stated above, why people still feel its the LOGICAL decision to vote for her. Please don't say reasons such as I think shes more experienced or things like that; state logical reasons such as she has fought hard consistently on this issue, so she has my respect or something along the lines like that.