EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2887
| Forum Index > Closed |
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
|
blomsterjohn
Norway463 Posts
| ||
|
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
| ||
|
CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
On February 11 2016 08:29 GreenHorizons wrote: Some of the very first things to come out when this was all getting started was that actual socialists universally agreed Bernie wasn't a socialist. Personally I think the charge of calling him "a socialist" as a pejorative makes the person doing it look dumb and/or manipulative. Once people realize the context of this "socialist" charge they usually aren't fond of the people who fed it to them. If people think that arguing the solution to our current practice of subsidizing walmart wages with social programs, that make sure people have food and healthcare, is to remove the social programs and leave those folks on their own rather than force walmart to pay it's employees enough so that they don't qualify for government programs is a fight Bernie will be thrilled to take on. My whole beef is that he invites that very charge with his "democratic socialist" label. He doesn't need that label. All his policies are bog standard liberal democrat policies, but a few of them are higher degree. He should drop "democratic socialist" because it does him no good with middling voters and is inaccurate. Ahh nevermind. This is just angels dancing on the head of a pin. | ||
|
Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On February 11 2016 08:28 cLutZ wrote: Only in the strictest sense of socialism as a means rather than an ends (the desired goal being government control over the economy). You have literally no idea what you are talking about. Anarcho communists surely don't want government control over the economy, but they are obviously socialist. This is what happens when all your knowledge about different economic models comes from fox news and new york times. If you look at the results of a high taxes, protectionism, selective subsidies, directed taxes (on tobacco, carbon, etc) and regulations you can get 99% of the control that socialism provides, with much fewer political costs. Again, its not about control, and you are still stupid Take, for instance, minimum wage. The state could create a grocery store that pays whatever wage they like, but it would probably fail, and whoever's idea it was would be ridiculed. However, if you impose the minimum wage, what happens when that same store owner goes under is people say "haha look at that incompetent owner, he cannot adapt to the times." You can see this sentiment whenever the minimum wage or wal-mart comes up on Reddit as they circlejerk about how a "company that doesn't pay a living wage shouldn't exist." Your posts about evil taxes and minimum wage are a fight against windmills. Its funny, really. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23220 Posts
Hillary is counting on massive piles of paid staff for her ground game, she's either going to have to go beg wall street for money or significantly cut down on her burn rate. Sanders however has 100's of thousands of volunteers already spread into practically every state. Sanders is approaching 2x as many donors too. On February 11 2016 08:39 oneofthem wrote: GH what u say about an ad that would use this sanders voice clip right here. https://youtu.be/oY2mQxm4SNQ?t=27m36s Just have Sanders release the last 30 seconds in his own ad? Ancient clips of a once more radical Bernie (who would appeal moreso to some of his supporters), won't be of much consequence. Unlike Obama he has a long history in elected office, if it's going to stick it's going to need an example of one of these radical things he actually did. | ||
|
Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Wait, you bluster on about communist anarchism and it's Clutz that gets all his news from biased sources? It's like the second coming of samzdat and wake up sheeple to what's really happening. Since you included Fox and NYT, like both sides have no clue what socialism means, perhaps you'll suggest another? + Show Spoiler + Perhaps since the true story is so hidden, you might suggest the daily worker archives as a good first step? Saying socialism isn't about control does not make it so. This is observing politics with the horse blinders on. It pains me to play devil's advocate, but across the issues the socialist argument is government can do it better and guide a hopelessly greedy and corrupt capitalistic system by using inpartial experts to fix everything from healthcare to banking to benefit the common man. That involves a level of control over markets and incomes. Come off the sloganeering and technicality-pointing if you want to persuade and enlighten. | ||
|
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 11 2016 08:39 oneofthem wrote: GH what u say about an ad that would use this sanders voice clip right here. https://youtu.be/oY2mQxm4SNQ?t=27m36s I say Eugene Debs 2016. The working class candidate. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23220 Posts
What people want is for common folk to regain some influence over those two groups which are undeniably conspiring to screw them over. This is the Bernie/Trump appeal in a nutshell. | ||
|
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On February 11 2016 09:04 IgnE wrote: I say Eugene Debs 2016. The working class candidate. it isn't going to work though. not unless you lock up the trades and be content with some steady state of stagnation. also a disastrous move just in terms of global development. | ||
|
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 11 2016 09:02 Danglars wrote: Wait, you bluster on about communist anarchism and it's Clutz that gets all his news from biased sources? It's like the second coming of samzdat and wake up sheeple to what's really happening. Since you included Fox and NYT, like both sides have no clue what socialism means, perhaps you'll suggest another? + Show Spoiler + Perhaps since the true story is so hidden, you might suggest the daily worker archives as a good first step? Saying socialism isn't about control does not make it so. This is observing politics with the horse blinders on. It pains me to play devil's advocate, but across the issues the socialist argument is government can do it better and guide a hopelessly greedy and corrupt capitalistic system by using inpartial experts to fix everything from healthcare to banking to benefit the common man. That involves a level of control over markets and incomes. Come off the sloganeering and technicality-pointing if you want to persuade and enlighten. The point is simply that Bernie isn't breaking with any American tradition or trying to invent something new. He's advocating a mixed economy with certain government services which isn't foreign to the US. The dismantling of essential public goods and services is a new phenomenon since the Thatcher era, Bernie isn't propagating any foreign ideology, he's merely trying to balance the scales a little. | ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States44276 Posts
On February 11 2016 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote: My read on the situation is that people don't want the state to control everything any more than they want corporations to. What people want is for common folk to regain some influence over those two groups which are undeniably conspiring to screw them over. This is the Bernie/Trump appeal in a nutshell. The only problem is that Trump is anything but representative of "common folk" (especially as one of the most arrogant one-percenters out there). Supporters seem to connect with him more on a politically incorrect/ fuck the political establishment level, rather than him having the folksy charm that candidates like Sarah Palin attempted. Trump is pretty much the opposite of a soccer mom. | ||
|
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
| ||
|
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On February 11 2016 09:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: The only problem is that Trump is anything but representative of "common folk" (especially as one of the most arrogant one-percenters out there). Supporters seem to connect with him more on a politically incorrect/ fuck the political establishment level, rather than him having the folksy charm that candidates like Sarah Palin attempted. Trump is pretty much the opposite of a soccer mom. You are missing the point. Trump is running on a populist platform. I don't think that people are going to care that he is a billionaire. You need to think of him as the second coming of Teddy Roosvelt. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23220 Posts
On February 11 2016 09:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: The only problem is that Trump is anything but representative of "common folk" (especially as one of the most arrogant one-percenters out there). Supporters seem to connect with him more on a politically incorrect/ fuck the political establishment level, rather than him having the folksy charm that candidates like Sarah Palin attempted. Trump is pretty much the opposite of a soccer mom. Yeah Trumps shtick is a total scam. But that politically incorrect/fuck the establishment/xenophobic/racist stuff is a manifestation from a similar root. Ironically it's actually just white middle class folks falling into the same realities that marginalized people know America as always being. Nothing would bring in more stark contrast the lies Trump is peddling than Bernie's undeniably real sincerity and goals. I mean the attack recently leveled here only stood as an example that he's been fighting for working class folks his whole political life. Further backed up when Sanders talks about how his motivation isn't money, success, or power, it's a very real emotional reaction he has to seeing a weaker person taken advantage of by a stronger person, which stands in stark contrast to what sacrifices to common decency one must make to be a billionaire in the first place. | ||
|
ErectedZenith
325 Posts
On February 11 2016 09:33 GreenHorizons wrote: Yeah Trumps shtick is a total scam. But that politically incorrect/fuck the establishment/xenophobic/racist stuff is a manifestation from a similar root. Ironically it's actually just white middle class folks falling into the same realities that marginalized people know America as always being. Nothing would bring in more stark contrast the lies Trump is peddling than Bernie's undeniably real sincerity and goals. I mean the attack recently leveled here only stood as an example that he's been fighting for working class folks his whole political life. Further backed up when Sanders talks about how his motivation isn't money, success, or power, it's a very real emotional reaction he has to seeing a weaker person taken advantage of by a stronger person, which stands in stark contrast to what sacrifices to common decency one must make to be a billionaire in the first place. Trump is not a racist though. He is getting rid of illegal immigrant. | ||
|
zeo
Serbia6284 Posts
| ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States44276 Posts
On February 11 2016 09:55 ErectedZenith wrote: Trump is not a racist though. He is getting rid of illegal immigrant. Sarcasm? | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 11 2016 09:28 xDaunt wrote: You are missing the point. Trump is running on a populist platform. I don't think that people are going to care that he is a billionaire. You need to think of him as the second coming of Teddy Roosvelt. Teddy Rossvelt actually gave a fuck about poor people, so not to much. Trump an ego maniac taking advantage of a defunked GOP that spend the last 4 Congressional elections promising their base shit they could never deliver. The only thing they have in common is the fact that both of them said some off color shit. Also Roosvelt's daughter was way more interesting than any of Trump's kids. On February 11 2016 09:55 ErectedZenith wrote: Trump is not a racist though. He is getting rid of illegal immigrant. Nah, he is a full blow bigot that thinks he can force another sovereign nation to pay us to build a wall. People just stopped pointing it out because its like saying the sky is blue. | ||
|
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On February 11 2016 09:55 zeo wrote: What do you guys think Trumps chances are in New York? Could he swing it to Republicans or is it too far for anyone? lol is this serious. he would get destroyed | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23220 Posts
On February 11 2016 09:55 ErectedZenith wrote: Trump is not a racist though. He is getting rid of illegal immigrant. And their American families, but go on. I'm sure it's just coincidence white supremacists are coming out to support/endorse/make calls for Trump. They're probably just bad at being white supremacists... | ||
| ||
