EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2867
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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KwarK
United States44158 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 09 2016 13:24 Nyxisto wrote: Why doesn't everybody just listen to McCain who was tortured for like 6 years or something by the frickin Vietcong and call it a day? Well, despite me agreeing with McCain's sentiment, this shouldn't be why. We don't let AA dictate our policy on alcohol (and in fact their influence over public policy is incredibly destructive). | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On February 09 2016 13:24 Nyxisto wrote: Why doesn't everybody just listen to McCain who was tortured for like 6 years or something by the frickin Vietcong and call it a day? Because US culture assumes that torture works. The vast majority of torture scenes in movies and TV shows end with the 110% USDA certified pure evil torturee fessing up to everything and/or dead. It's the popular conception and it's completely incorrect. | ||
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puerk
Germany855 Posts
On February 09 2016 14:04 cLutZ wrote: Well, despite me agreeing with McCain's sentiment, this shouldn't be why. We don't let AA dictate our policy on alcohol (and in fact their influence over public policy is incredibly destructive). There is a difference between "dictating" and "informing", the suggestion was to use mccains information and moral judgment as a basis to come to an agreement on what is torture and should the US be (/keep) doing it? And there is a good argument to be made that he has the credentials to know what he is talking about and is arguing in good faith. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 09 2016 14:04 cLutZ wrote: Well, despite me agreeing with McCain's sentiment, this shouldn't be why. We don't let AA dictate our policy on alcohol (and in fact their influence over public policy is incredibly destructive). but he also is right, torture doesn't work and it's inhumane and below the standard of any civilized nation. In this context, why did/does Trump get away with shitting on a war vet? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24063 Posts
Sanders swept Dixville Notch NH 4-0 Kasich-3 Trump -2 Rest-0 | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On February 09 2016 13:16 KwarK wrote: The late great Bush advisor Hitchins said it was not torture. And as a passionate rationalist he was so convinced of that opinion that when he was challenged to undergo waterboarding he stood by his stance and agreed to be waterboarded. From then on he stated unequivocally that it was torture and spoke about how the experience impacted his mental state for a long time after the event. He was waterboarded once for about 3 seconds. Yet you have possible future presidents either: blatantly stating that it's totally fine and (in trumps case) will be turned up a notch, or candidates who say "well, uhm, yeah, maybe, you know". Don't take it the wrong way, but one would need to go to incredible lengths of mental gymnastic to despise vietcong torture etc, to then just say "but it's fine if WE do it". I don't even see why that needs to be explained or argued, of course it's torture. Just because there's no limbs being ripped off, doesn't mean that it isn't. Ask Kari Byron who was tortured by waterdrops. Simple waterdrops on the forehead. She almost had a mental breakdown. They actually didn't finish the experiment because none of them was able to go through it. It's retarded, and every person advocating torture (including waterboarding, because that's what it is) is not a dime better than the people that get tortured by that. In fact, every person who's advocating that it's not torture should try it, according to the video it's quite enlightening. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 09 2016 14:10 Nyxisto wrote: but he also is right, torture doesn't work and it's inhumane and below the standard of any civilized nation. In this context, why did/does Trump get away with shitting on a war vet? See, that's all that is needed. I'm sure I can find someone who was tortured and gave up info that will testify to it's efficacy and is willing to personally engage in it. You just have to go to Iraq or Russia. Or just anyone who's been interrogated at some point that turns into a cop. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On February 09 2016 15:06 cLutZ wrote: See, that's all that is needed. I'm sure I can find someone who was tortured and gave up info that will testify to it's efficacy and is willing to personally engage in it. You just have to go to Iraq or Russia. Or just anyone who's been interrogated at some point that turns into a cop. Nah, i don't buy that. As long as you can't prove that the information wouldn't have been released without torture, you just have no argument. And obviously, you can't. For every single person that gave out information, i can point at what, 2? 10? That didn't. Half of those didn't have information to begin with. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 09 2016 15:11 m4ini wrote: Nah, i don't buy that. As long as you can't prove that the information wouldn't have been released without torture, you just have no argument. And obviously, you can't. For every single person that gave out information, i can point at what, 2? 10? That didn't. Half of those didn't have information to begin with. Well, first of all, that is an impossible standard. Also I didn't say torture works, I just said I could find someone who was tortured and claims it does if I try hard enough. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On February 09 2016 15:19 cLutZ wrote: Well, first of all, that is an impossible standard. Also I didn't say torture works, I just said I could find someone who was tortured and claims it does if I try hard enough. Wanna bet you wouldn't think that "knowing that it works" is an "impossible standard" if you were on the receiving end? And yeah, i understood what you said. My answer was, clearly, that for every person that you can find who's saying (from personal experience) that it works, i will find 10 who say it doesn't. And then 50 who were tortured without being able to give any information in the first place, admitting crimes that they didn't do to stop the torture. I wonder why you guys are not that lenient with corporal punishment? At least for that, you have a trial beforehand. You have to be found guilty. Yet you're fine with torturing potential innocent people. Mind = blown. edit: by "you being fine" i mean the general US population, not you specifically. If a potential president can clearly say "yup, torture, totally my thing and we need more of it" and still gets a vote afterwards, i assume that's the case. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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KwarK
United States44158 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
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JW_DTLA
242 Posts
And yes. Torture is popular. If you put it to a vote the people want it. Don't listen to the justification that aren't about liking torture though. Those are distractions. **Unless you count forced confessions. Then it was used all the time for forced confessions. **Also Terror. Torture spread fear and is an effective tool of terrorism. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On February 09 2016 18:15 JW_DTLA wrote: The purpose of torture has always been torture. The notion that it is for interrogation is ridiculous. Never in history has it been useful in interrogation**. Every time it was done to a hated someone to make them suffer. The torture queen at the CIA had KSM tortured because everyone wanted to torture KSM. Don't give anyone the benefit of the doubt on this. Unless someone can specifically show the exact reason and process behind the torture, the presumption always needs to be on torture for torture's sake. And yes. Torture is popular. If you put it to a vote the people want it. Don't listen to the justification that aren't about liking torture though. Those are distractions. **Unless you count forced confessions. Then it was used all the time for forced confessions. **Also Terror. Torture spread fear and is an effective tool of terrorism. Yeah, I don't really understand why people debate about the ethics of torture. Isn't it pretty clear that torture is just a way for the human being to unleash its inherent violence in a "justified" way? | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On February 09 2016 18:15 JW_DTLA wrote: The purpose of torture has always been torture. The notion that it is for interrogation is ridiculous. Never in history has it been useful in interrogation**. Every time it was done to a hated someone to make them suffer. The torture queen at the CIA had KSM tortured because everyone wanted to torture KSM. Don't give anyone the benefit of the doubt on this. Unless someone can specifically show the exact reason and process behind the torture, the presumption always needs to be on torture for torture's sake. And yes. Torture is popular. If you put it to a vote the people want it. Don't listen to the justification that aren't about liking torture though. Those are distractions. **Unless you count forced confessions. Then it was used all the time for forced confessions. **Also Terror. Torture spread fear and is an effective tool of terrorism. Is there any data on this really? CIA and the like must be getting intel from them - hard to believe the do it just for kicks | ||
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